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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Metallic Pinging /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1446940627 Message started by matt1995 on 11/07/15 at 15:57:07 |
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Title: Metallic Pinging Post by matt1995 on 11/07/15 at 15:57:07 Hey all, So I was in the shop doing a valve adjustment, and adjusted the valves on the tighter end, so .003 fit easily but not .004. The bike won't start. I reassembled everything. Anything dumb I might've missed? Throw out anything that seems silly! GO! Best, Matt! |
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Title: Re: HELP! Post by matt1995 on 11/07/15 at 15:58:39 Also, I already suspected battery. Hooked up a jump & carry. Still no start. Starter spins, but doesn't turn over. Checked spark plug and is getting spark. |
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Title: Re: HELP! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/07/15 at 16:08:17 Are you sure you're at TDC compression? Did any valves seem way out of adjustment? |
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Title: Re: HELP! Post by matt1995 on 11/07/15 at 16:19:41 We (me and a friend) rotated that flywheel a million times. We got it to the point where both of the adjustment screws were closest to the covers, and the piston was up, and the adjustment mark was on. Either way. No matter where we rotated we couldn't get play in the rocker arms, and we tightened each screw about 5 or 6 full turns to get it to about .003. Is TDC comp before or after the woosh from the spark plug hole stroke? We noticed that it would go, one set of the adjustment screws went down (toward the ground) then the other, then both were up, and the piston was up and that's when we adjusted. |
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Title: Re: HELP! Post by verslagen1 on 11/07/15 at 16:34:53 1st, I don't know what you did so let's start from the beginning... what instructions did you follow? Clymers has an error this tells you the right way... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1325991352 |
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Title: Re: HELP! Post by matt1995 on 11/07/15 at 16:39:03 I followed the SS link on how to adjust. |
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Title: Re: HELP! Post by verslagen1 on 11/07/15 at 16:42:24 So you turned the crank the wheels turn to go forward and watched the intake valves go up then down then you kept turning till the marks aligned? |
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Title: Re: HELP! Post by matt1995 on 11/07/15 at 18:30:11 Well, I kind of figured out the issue. We didn't let the feeler gauge slip all the way into the slot, so we overtightened the valves. We went back, readjusted to .003 and now the bike starts and runs. However, it is not any more noisy (like louder) but the noise has changed to a weird metallic pinging type sound instead of the sewing machine noise it was before. I assumed by adjusting to .003 that we would have quieted the noise more than made it louder. Could we have possibly adjusted on the TDC EXHAUST stroke? To kind of explain. We turned the fly COUNTER CLOCKWISE, in the same direction as the front wheel turns. We turned it so one set of adjusters went down (away from the adjustment cover), and got the WOOSH out the spark plug hole, then the other, then when the piston came up again, aligned it with the marking. Did we do it right? We didn't have any free play on the rocker arms though, and we tried both on the Compression and the Exhaust TDC strokes and couldn't get rocker free play on either. I have to do that cam chain tensioner next week (I'm pulling it to send to you) so I will be letting the bike sit anyway, and when installing the new tensioner I plan on readjusting valves again if we did it wrong this time. PS, the guy I did it with is the guy who will be buying it if I sell it to convert to a Ryca so, it's imperative that we both get it right. |
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Title: Re: HELP! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/07/15 at 20:44:13 Until you've won it, playing on the tight end is dangerous. Start by adjusting on the loose end of specs. Hold one end of the rocker down tight, then push the other down. See what you feel. |
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Title: Re: HELP! Post by WD on 11/07/15 at 23:21:42 786761667B7C4D7D4D75676B20120 wrote:
My 98 went 25K and change w/o a valve adjustment. My 03 has gone close to 40K total, and unless Pine or the owner before him fiddled with them, has never had an adjustment. Why...? Because they don't need it. Use Rotella 15W40 or Mobil 20W50. Use the crappiest low cost garbage gas you can find (bike only requires 85 octane). Get your jetting right so the top end isn't overheated by a lean burn condition. How often in reality did the old Toyota 22r need a valve adjustment? Savage has the EXACT same followers and soft camshaft as the Yota engine did... Your methods may vary. |
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Title: Re: HELP! Post by strang on 11/08/15 at 04:47:10 I may take your advice WD - I really hate doing the valve adjustment on the Savage. Last time I checked, it hadn't moved at all anyway. |
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Title: Re: HELP! Post by Dave on 11/08/15 at 05:02:30 I beileve you are having trouble finding the correct TDC....the crankshaft has two of them - but the cam only has one. Rotate the crank in the direction of the wheels as you have been doing, then pay attention to the order in which the valves open/close. When you are rotating the engine the front (exhaust ) rocker will open and close first, and then as it is closing and you reach the 1st TDC (marks on crank line up) the intake valve will begin to open.....that is NOT the place you want to adjust the valves and you need to rotate the crank another full revolution and the rear intake rocker will close during the next half a revolution of the crank, and then you will need another half revolution before the marks line up. I suspect you adjusted the valves at the wrong point when the "Valve overlap" occurs, and now you have the valves really loose. |
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Title: Re: HELP! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/08/15 at 06:42:43 The adjuster is a pointed piece of steel, it dulls, flattens, hardens, over time. By the 20,000 miles adjustment, it hardly changed from the 15,000. |
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Title: Re: HELP! Post by matt1995 on 11/11/15 at 20:24:52 I think I got it figured out. Went back in today with my buddy and we readjusted them again. We had the intake open and close (set closest to carb) and the marks lined up, had play on the rocker arms. Did the adjustment tightly at .004. Regapped spark plug at between .8 and .9 mm as per manual Started her up. Started up just fine. No more smoke. Quiet valves. I believe we did everything correctly. Problem now though, is lack of top end power. I completely lost top end power. Can't get the bike above 75mph at WOT and above 60 it hesitates like all hell. I have NO idea what changed. Fresh gas. Just ran Seafoam through the gas tank, less than 200 miles ago. Plenty of gas in tank over 3/4 full. The only thing I did was remove the air box cover to the air filter. I'm using the Nu-Foam custom filter and the airflow seemed fine. I did put a little chicken wire threading in the filter to help stop it from separating, and removed the rubber air duct from under the seat... Could the extra airflow be causing this? Any other causes for this? I'm baffled. Best, Matt |
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Title: Re: Lost Power on Top End Post by Dave on 11/12/15 at 03:21:01 What jets are in the carb? The foam air filter might have changed the fuel mixture needs when you are at the throttle settings where the main jet is operating.....the bike could be running lean at higher throttle settings. Put your stock paper air filter back in and see how it runs. |
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Title: Re: Lost Power on Top End Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/12/15 at 05:22:17 Keep moving toward stock , and test after each change, or, put it all back stock, and make changes, testing each change. I didn't see that the exhaust is stock or not. |
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Title: Re: Lost Power on Top End Post by matt1995 on 11/12/15 at 08:24:18 Here's the thing. I've been using that Nu-Foam filter for a while. The only difference is that I got rid of the air box cover on the side. Nothing else really has changed. So in terms of variables that's the only thing that really has changed. I wouldn't imagine a proper valve adjustment would cause a loss in power. |
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Title: Re: Lost Power on Top End Post by verslagen1 on 11/12/15 at 08:52:30 so it's a simple test to figure out if that's the cause right? |
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Title: Re: Lost Power on Top End Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/12/15 at 10:09:51 Operative word being Proper. How is it, hard off the line? Does it pull up till it sounds like you better be changing gears? More details about how it's running might help. And anything that has been changed, regardless of how insignificant you think it is, go back, undo it. If you were messing with a Rochester Quadrojet and made a small adjustment but the engine had a big, negative reaction, you'd undo the adjustment, even If you couldn't understand how such a small thing could make such a big difference. Troubleshooting 101, if anything has been changed and it's not running right, undo whatever it was. |
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Title: Re: Lost Power on Top End Post by matt1995 on 11/12/15 at 16:44:35 Hey all. So I rode the bike around a bit today, to try and see the cause. I changed everything but the valve adjustment back to stock (didn't have access to the shop/tools). So. I removed the air filter completely and threw the air box (the black cover with the gasket back on) complete restoration in power. Thus the cause was the airflow messing with the filter. Re-foamed the filter and threaded some wire through it at the top to keep it from separating as much. Much better now. So that problem is fixed. Now though, I'm hearing a high pitched metallic pinging coming from the valve area. It wasn't present last night after the valve adjustment. Whisper quiet. As I rode today, I noticed it got louder and louder. Now I'm home and the bike is parked. When I did the valve adjustment yesterday, I watched the intake valves open then close, then turned another half turn more until the timing marks lined up. Play in the rocker arms. Adjusted to .004 as previously stated. Tightened down the lock nuts. Rechecked clearances. Buttoned her back up. During that adjustment I didn't do anything else, except that airbox thing which I put back, which fixed the loss of power issue. That metallic pinging (which happens at mid-rpms, right around 45 in 4th is when it's most pronounced, so around that RPM range. It almost sounds like rattling metal >.< Eek. The issue with changing the valve adjustment back is that since my buddy did the actual adjustment I don't know what the valve clearances felt like BEFORE we readjusted, plus they were wrongly adjusted on the exhaust stroke anyway. So. With only having the working knowledge I have now. What went wrong that the pinging just started today and got worse? |
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Title: Re: Metallic Pinging Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/12/15 at 22:02:36 Those intake valves,, exactly where on the head are those on your bike? |
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Title: Re: Metallic Pinging Post by chzeckmate on 11/12/15 at 23:17:32 It's been a week already. I'd think we'd have a recording by now...hint, hint. |
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Title: Re: Metallic Pinging Post by matt1995 on 11/13/15 at 04:13:19 I tried recording the other day to diagnose a cam chain tensioner noise and my phone does such a crappy job it was just a mosh of noise. No distinguishable sounds. |
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Title: Re: Metallic Pinging Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/13/15 at 04:39:50 77686E6974734272427A68642F1D0 wrote:
I'm trying to help.. And if you answer that correctly, that would be good. |
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Title: Re: Metallic Pinging Post by matt1995 on 11/13/15 at 06:03:58 The valves closest to the carb. So on the right side if looking sideways at the bike from the shifter side. |
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Title: Re: Metallic Pinging Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/13/15 at 06:39:43 Thanks, that is the correct answer. I'd use a piece of plastic tubing stuck in your ear, or, long screwdriver and pinpoint the location. You're sure it's engine and not speedometer? |
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Title: Re: Metallic Pinging Post by Dave on 11/13/15 at 07:18:52 I thought my valve train was starting to come apart, it kept getting louder and louder, and was most noticeable when sitting at a traffic light. One day I reached forward and put my hand on top of the headlight...and the sound disappeared - but came back instantly when I let go of the headlight. Turns out the chrome ring around the headlight was loose and rattled like crazy at idle. I put a couple of pieces of the foam tape at the tabs that hold the trim ring to the headlight, and it works just fine. |
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Title: Re: Metallic Pinging Post by matt1995 on 11/13/15 at 08:46:12 Hey, Just checked. Listened to speedo and headlight. No noise from there. Coming from the valves somewhere, noise is definitely near the upper part of the motor. Also increases as RPM increases. |
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Title: Re: Metallic Pinging Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/14/15 at 06:16:20 How is it acting? Running okay? |
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Title: Re: Metallic Pinging Post by matt1995 on 11/14/15 at 06:32:02 The bike is running smoothly. It's just that "assuming" valve noise that I'm unaccustomed to hearing. |
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Title: Re: Metallic Pinging Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/14/15 at 08:26:07 I'd listen to each valve cover, and generally all over Up There And see if I could find a difference, front to rear, left to right. If it's the same sound, it's either okay or It's wrong, evenly. A piece of plastic tubing that fits in the ear is handy. A piece of windshield washer or vacuum tubing, and a metal rod in it, a genuine stethoscope, a screwdriver, press the bony part in front of the ear on the handle, lots of ways to get an idea where a noise is coming from. |
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Title: Re: Metallic Pinging Post by matt1995 on 11/16/15 at 19:11:37 Hey all, Not the best news. So I went back into the valve inspection covers to check. On TDC Compression, one of the valves was overtightened to .0015"... So I loosened it. Matched them all up to .004" to give some leeway. Started the bike up, and it purred. No more pinging. Rode it about 50 miles. Died. Completely. Exhaust was on fire, and it won't start back up again..... Going to do a teardown in the shop tomorrow. |
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Title: Re: Metallic Pinging Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/16/15 at 19:19:42 Okay, died, completely. Flames.. What are you taking apart? Motor turn over? Any noises? |
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Title: Re: Metallic Pinging Post by matt1995 on 11/18/15 at 07:46:19 Well I didn't even have to tear it down. Bad symptoms but easy fix. The air filter foam got sucked into the intake and was preventing air from getting into the mixture. So I used some chicken wire mesh to refashion the air filter and whala. All good! |
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