SuzukiSavage.com - Print Page

SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl
General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Cam chain - Replacement
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1431072415

Message started by Mekh on 05/08/15 at 01:06:55

Title: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by Mekh on 05/08/15 at 01:06:55

Hi,

I have been looking through the Technical References and Googled for a guide on how to replace the cam chain, but with no luck so far.
I've seen some hints here and there spread out among the hundreds of threads I've read/scanned over the past month or so, but nothing that made the extent of the work clear to me.

I don't think I want to replace the chain right now, as a Verslavy should be able to help me out, but... I like to be "prepared" and read up on stuff up front.

Basically what I'm looking for is something like:

What do I need to disassemble in order to replace the chain.
Some tips on how to do it the easiest/best/safest way.
Things to be aware of: Make note of this & that, use locktite here, but not there... so on :)

I have the Clymer manual, but so far at least I haven't managed to deduct from that, what the essential steps are for replacing the cam chain.

FYI, status of my Cam Chain Tensioner:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fghtsnxji8ijxmh/20150507-IMG_2225.jpg?dl=0

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by projectfj on 05/08/15 at 03:24:59

Here's a good run down of what you'll need minus taking the actual tensioner off:
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1191167029

If you want to save the oil, lean your motorcycle over to the left side. Good luck.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/08/15 at 09:35:17

This is when a manual comes in handy.

Before you pull a bolt, mentally go through the procedure.
Exhaust comes off. I don't know if the peg/brake pedal stay. (comes off)-v1
Get a box, draw the outline of clutch cover, poke a slot where every bolt goes and keep up with where each one came from.
Use a 1/4" ratchet or an end wrench, FEEL , dont hurry, work back and forth, across, go around till you feel good about it. Don't try to get them tight in one or even two passes. The time spent being careful is nothing compared to the time it will take if you strip case threads. The crushing force will squeeze the gasket a tiny bit, take your time. If you use sealant, be super careful of. Oil passage.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by verslagen1 on 05/08/15 at 09:47:07

These are good run thrus you should be familiar with...

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1256079122

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1246924611

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1177184297

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1191167029

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by Mekh on 05/09/15 at 18:25:03

Thanks a lot for the tips and links... haven't had time to read it thoroughly yet, but looks really helpful glancing over it.

Much appreciated... :-)

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by kamelryttarn on 07/08/20 at 09:32:35

Ok.. cam chain replacement.... what is the secret? Cuz I can't figure out how to do it. After a couple of hours in the workshop today I finally got the chain on both sprockets just to realize I totally forgot about the timing.

With a new chain the chain is so short there is NO way of adjusting anything once everything is in place. so how are you supposed to get the timing correct??? Please enlighten me as I'm about to give up on the bike and everything two wheel related.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/08/20 at 11:36:59

Cam sprocket cant be attached until the chain is on the sprocket,,
THATS IF I remember right,, Its been a long time,, Pretty sure thats right , tho.
But, Im certain that if youll be patient, someone will come along and help you out,,
And,, Yeah, its a bit of a mental twist, just dont get angry or frustrated, Ive never seen anyone get in there and, with the help here, fail to win it..

Have you checked to see if you have to go back in to get it timed?

The cam sprocket has a line, or 2 dashes, that run with the side of the head,
That sprocket only fits the cam one way, so, get the cam to allow the sprocket to go on it
WHILE the lines are right with the head,,
AND
At the same time, the piston has to be at Top Dead Center..
Achieved by rotating the crankshaft in the same direction as the wheels roll..

If you are using a ratchet, its probably gonna hit TDC and keep going,,
A breaker bar is good there, or, if youre super careful, Ive managed with a ratchet,,
Or, a pair of pliers on the extension,,
Vise Grips, And its great if ya can figure a way to Keep your timing from drifting while youre busy with everything else..

Maybe thats enuff,, I hope so,, Dont give up,,

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/08/20 at 15:21:35

Kamelryttarn, you can do this. Anyone who can build that crazy complicated compressor contraption can time their cam chain. BTW, sweet compressor setup.

First, I assume you know how to get the head cover off, and tensioner off, etc. etc. I believe you already have it apart. Do I have that right?

With the head cover off, you are not in danger of running any valves into the piston. You can rotate the engine and the valves can't actuate because there are no rocker arms. The rocker arms are in the head cover.

The piston must be at top dead center (TDC). It's at TDC when the timing marks on the alternator rotor are aligned. The timing plug in the alternator cover (Left Hand Cover) must be removed to see the marks.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/08/20 at 15:26:40

Once it is positioned at TDC, you can lock the crankshaft by installing an 8mm bolt in the threaded hole on the right hand side of the case. Do not tighten with a wrench. Just tighten with your fingers. That will be sufficient to keep the crank from rotating Tighten the bolt with your fingers until you feel the bolt touch the side of the crankshaft, then turn it clockwise a little more (with your fingers, not a wrench) until the bolt is pressing hard on the crank.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/08/20 at 15:30:06

Make sure the drive sprocket on the crank is timed properly. The punch marks on the sprocket and the crankshaft must be lined up. This picture shows the punch marks misaligned. This sprocket would have to be moved three-splines clockwise to line up the marks. Sorry, I didn't have a picture with the marks lined up but I think you get the idea..

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/08/20 at 15:31:51

Here's another shot of misaligned timing marks, the sprocket must be moved three-splines clockwise to properly align the marks.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/08/20 at 15:34:21

The cam chain tensioner must be removed. Don't try and do this without the tensioner removed. Take the tensioner out so you have enough slack in the chain to adjust the timing.

This is your tensioner. If it's installed, take it out.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/08/20 at 15:39:36

Now, with the crank set at TDC, and the cam chain drive sprocket marks correctly aligned to the crankshaft (the marks on the crank and small sprocket), install your cam chain, cam sprocket, and camshaft. Try to set it up with the timing marks on the end of the cam as close to horizontal as reasonably achievable.

You can see the marks are not perfectly aligned in this picture. They are a few degrees off the horizontal head surface.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/08/20 at 15:45:11

Now, walk the chain on the cam sprocket one tooth at a time. There should be enough slack in the chain to bunch up the chain one-tooth at a time and walk the successive links over the sprocket. You may have to go from the forward side of the sprocket toward the rear, or the rear side of the sprocket toward the front. It will depend on if the cam is retarded or advanced.

This shows how you bunch up the chain. You just pull out the first link and reinsert it one tooth up. Even though its in the engine and the camshaft is installed, there will be enough slack as long as the cam chain tensioner has been removed. It's tight but there should be enough slack.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/08/20 at 15:51:06

Once you think you have it correctly timed, reinstall the chain tensioner and check the timing.

Remove the 8mm bolt that is holding the crank. Turn the engine gently clockwise through at least one revolution. Then stop at the TDC mark on the left hand side of the crankshaft.

Check your timing marks. Make sure the TDC mark is aligned and the marks on the cam are correctly aligned with the head cover sealing surface. It should look like this.

Note: DO NOT FORGET TO COMPLETELY REMOVE THE 8mm BOLT THAT YOU USED TO LOCK THE CRANK.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/08/20 at 15:56:47

Once you are sure that it is timed correctly, I suggest you rotate the engine through several more times and recheck timing. I always check it several times to make sure its right.

If you are sure the timing is correct, you can reassemble the engine.

Then, once the engine is all back together, I suggest you rotate the engine through at least four complete revolutions to make sure that no valves are hitting the piston. Then, adjust all the valves to .004" clearance and check it again by rotating the engine at least four complete revolutions. If you encounter any resistance, stop and check. Make sure no valves are hitting. Always double & triple check. When an irresistible force meets an immovable object, bad things usually happen.

Good luck.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by kamelryttarn on 07/08/20 at 22:09:16

@JoG and DragBikeMike

I can't thank you enough. Those pics are invaluable and the step by step description will hopefully get me through it.

I have both side covers off and a friend helped me make a tool to loosen the plug on the generator side so I can check the timing marking. I did put the piston at TDC before I re-attached the cylinder head but I did not know it was possible to lock it in position to keep it there.

I did manage to get the timing dents on the sprocket and crank shaft aligned. When I first got the timing chain in place I did so with the cam sprocket loose and when I was attaching it to the cam shaft I first put one of the bolts in just a few turns and then tried to turn the engine to get to the other bolt but something gut stuck and I could't turn it in either direction. I think I heard a small "ping" when I forced the engine backwards and I noticed the first cam sprocket bolt had rubbed against the side of the cylinder head. I screwed in a few mor turns by hand and then everything went smooth. Is there any risk of damage to the engine?

I will give it a new go today and take more pictures as I try to follow DragBikeMike's instructions

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by LANCER on 07/09/20 at 02:11:27

You are fine as long as there was no aluminum broken off when the bolt contacted it and fell into the bottom of the engine.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by kamelryttarn on 07/09/20 at 12:32:34

Here is a picture of the aligned drive sprocket. I think I got this part sorted out OK.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by kamelryttarn on 07/09/20 at 12:38:33

Here is a picture of the marking seen through the hole in the engine cover. It's fairly aligned but maybe not 100%. Problem is when I double checked with an aluminium rod inserted through the spark plug hole it is no where near TDC. It's roughly half travel away from TDC!? Should I trust a thingy inserted through the spark plug over the marking? And how can the marking be so incredibly off??

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by kamelryttarn on 07/09/20 at 12:46:02

One other question. I have read on several places to make sure I check TDC on a compression cycle. If I don't have any valves or cam shaft involved is there really a difference between compression and exhaust cycle? Isn't that determined by the cam shaft and opening of the valves? And if so - can't I just make sure the lobes of the cam shaft are both facing downwards as in the picture?

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by kamelryttarn on 07/09/20 at 12:58:16

5D5B54282A2D29190 wrote:

Thank you so much DBM! It worked GREAT! I can't tell you how relieved I was when was able to move the chain to correct the timing.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/09/20 at 17:10:53

Whoah! Kamel, you do NOT have your TDC marks lined up. STOP, STOP, STOP. Do not try to start.

The timing mark on the crankshaft is not paint. It is a linear mark embossed in the end of the alternator rotor. You are using a paint mark on the bolt, which can end up positioned just about anywhere. You must use the linear mark stamped into the end of the alternator rotor.

You can barely see the correct mark circled in red. It's not lined up. You are about eighty degrees off.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/09/20 at 17:15:20

Does this help? Can you see it here in this photo?

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/09/20 at 17:34:03

Regarding your question about TDC compression vs TDC exhaust. If you try to install the head cover with the cam set to TDC exhaust, the cam lobes will be facing up and you will be struggling trying to get the head cover on. It will be forcing the rocker arms into the cam lobes and valves, trying to open valves.

You are correct, you want the cam lobes facing down when you go to install the head cover. The cam lobes should be facing down and the marks on the cam should be aligned with the horizontal sealing surface. It should look like the picture below. Also, when correctly positioned, the dowel for the cam sprocket will be in the 1 O' clock position, as shown in my prior photo of correctly aligned cam timing marks.

That reservoir directly below the cam lobes must be filled with oil prior to starting the engine. It can be easily filled with a pump oil can through the exhaust valve access cover.

My compliments on cleanliness. Very nice job of keeping things spic & span.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by kamelryttarn on 07/09/20 at 22:47:23

Thanks again. I am nowhere near starting the engine yet. That is probably weeks or even months in the future. I need to get this right so I don't destroy anything.

About the oil i the reservoir... I had an idea... Since my engine is out of the frame, couldn't I use the crank case breather to add the new oil to the engine? Wouldn't that properly flood the whole valve cover? My plan was to open the oil fill cap in the engine cover to let the air out and add a funnel to a hose connected to the crank case breather and pour the oil in from above making sure everything in the top end of the motor is properly lubricated before even trying to turn anything in the motor by hand much less start it.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/10/20 at 01:31:36

Do you understand the caution note I last posted? Do you now see the correct timing mark? I don't want you to damage your engine.

Regarding pouring oil in the breather to pre-lube the top end. The crankcase breather actually ties directly in to your bottom end. Any oil you pour into the breather will just run straight down this cavity into the bottom end.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/10/20 at 12:11:53

Don't forget
The scrubby thing in the head
The upside down corner bolt
It's fine to very slowly and carefully torquing bolts. A thumb on a 1/4" ratchet head, using fingers to bring the handle in, not a fist, and a forearm,,
Feel the bolts tightening, and if you're running through the pattern for the third time and you grab a bolt that doesn't wanna turn, don't turn it.. go on to the next one in the pattern.

If it's unknown territory, there is nothing wrong with buying a few bolts, and nuts, long enough to have the same length of non threaded area, drill holes and set up a test, see what it feels like to torque bolts, twist a couple off, see what that feels like,,

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by kamelryttarn on 07/10/20 at 12:35:36

@DBM: Yes I think I understand where to check the TDC position. I will try it again tomorrow and veryfing wih my aluminium rod through the spark plug hole again just to make sure.

@JoG: I invested in not one but two torque wrenches. They came with calibration protocols so I think I can trust that they are fairly accurate. They cover 4-20Nm and 25-125Nm. I have never before done any mechanical work so my experience and "feel" for the correct torque is zero.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/10/20 at 15:14:02

Then spend a few bucks, set up a test, get the feel on something that doesn't matter, before you grab stuff that really matters.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by kamelryttarn on 07/11/20 at 09:28:54

I am confident that I have now got the timing correct but I will let you judge before I put on the valve cover plate or whatever the correct name for the top plate is. It is now also possible to confirm the TDC position with a small rod inserted through the spark plug hole.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by kamelryttarn on 07/11/20 at 09:32:28

I have not fastened the cam chain sprocket just in case you guys spot something that is wrong but I think I got everything lined up the way it should now.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by DragBikeMike on 07/11/20 at 11:36:19

As long as your cam chain tensioner is installed, all chain slack taken up, and your marks line up as you show in your pictures, it's good. You must be able to rotate the engine three or four turns, stop at the TDC mark, and observe all the marks in alignment as shown.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by kamelryttarn on 07/11/20 at 12:20:28

Chain tensioner is not in place yet but there is almost no slack at all so things shouldn't change when I install it. I will torque the screws on the sprocket tomorrow and install my new tensioner and rotate the engine a bunch of turns :)

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by kamelryttarn on 07/12/20 at 11:50:54

OK, the new chain tensioner is basically in place but I haven't torqued the screws or release the spring and plunger yet. The cam sprocket is torqued but I have not bent up the wings on the locking washer yet.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by kamelryttarn on 07/12/20 at 11:52:46

I turned the engine around gently a few turns and every time the markings visible through the generator cover align, the cam shaft markings are horizontal

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by kamelryttarn on 07/12/20 at 11:55:23

About the torque specs. The Clymer manual states two widely different forces for the two scres involved. The one accessible from the outside of the engine holding the upper end of the "tensioner rail" and the one attaching the plunger to the lower end.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by kamelryttarn on 07/12/20 at 11:57:37

But in the only available picture they are both referred to as "bolts". How hard can it be to use the same nomenclature in the picture as the torque specs?!??

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by kamelryttarn on 07/17/20 at 21:53:34

It's time to fasten the cam chain sprocket on the crank shaft but what is the best way to lock the crank shaft? Since the nut is left hand threaded I assume I can not use the hex bolt on the opposite side to apply counter force since that might make that bolt come loose?

Should I try and lodge something fairly soft between the gears again?

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/18/20 at 06:34:41

Some use a copper coin, I cut a belt and folded the leather.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by kamelryttarn on 07/19/20 at 23:58:09

I managed to flatten a copper pipe and used that to lock the gears so I could start to fasten the nut but I got a bit unsure of the torque specs for that nut so I will check with you guys first. At first I thought the nut sitting in front of the cam chain sprocket was the "crank shaft left-hand flywheel nut" since it is left hand threaded but it wasn't reasonable to torque that to 140-160Nm so when double checking the exploded views and torque specs in the Clymer manual I now suspect that nut is the "primary drive gear nut" specced at 90-110 Nm which looks better but still very high. Should I really use close to 100 Nm to that 30mm left hand threaded nut?

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by kamelryttarn on 07/19/20 at 23:59:17

Here are the torque specs that doesn't quite explain it

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by norm92de on 07/20/20 at 07:36:03

You are correct. It is the primary drive gear nut. 90-110 NM.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by kamelryttarn on 07/20/20 at 11:38:11

Then I'm guessing that the nut that holds the clucth is the one referred to as "clutch locknut". Do the torque specs in the attached picture look alright to you? Just wanna double check so I don't mess anything up

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by kamelryttarn on 09/13/20 at 11:10:36

Today I finally torqued the clutch nut, the primary drive gear nut and the clutch plate. I also changed the oil filter and prepared everything I could think of before it is time to put on the left and right side cover on the engine but before I do that I would appreciate if you could tell me if there are any last things I should check before putting everything back together? Are there any springs, washers or anything that most people get wrong the first time? I know of the washer that fits on both starter motor axle and the gears that connects to the flywheel assembly but are there any other things?

I have removed the clip to release the new cam chain tensioner. I have bent up one side of the washer behind the clutch nut to keep it from coming loose. I have torqued all screws to the correct specification as best I can.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by badwolf on 09/13/20 at 12:09:26

Put some grease on the loose washer on the starter side to ''glue'' it in place when you put the cover back on. The magnet can pull it off and it gets into the windings. (BAD THING )
Not a bad idea to practice getting the left side cover in place a couple times before you put on the new gasket, the strong magnet will move it around while you are trying to get in place.
When puting the clutch cover back on be sure the little linkage for the clutch cable is UP. It will fall down by itself and you will have to remove, or at least loosen the whole thing to turn it back up.
And use anti seize on everything, most of all the header bolts! And just use a 1/4" drive rachet on those bolts, you DON'T want to mess up those threads.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by DragBikeMike on 09/13/20 at 12:15:26

You have the washer/s on the wrong shaft. The idler gear shaft should not have washers. The washers go on the overtorque clutch shaft. If you leave the washers on the idler gear shaft, the system will bind and you could also possibly break the cover or case. Both washers go on the overtorque gear, one inboard, one outboard.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by DragBikeMike on 09/13/20 at 12:22:08

This illustration should clarifiy.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by Dave on 09/14/20 at 03:19:00

The illustration is a bit weird....it shows the torque limiter assembly way out of alignment with it's location. The illustration makes it confusing.

The washers prevent the splined shaft on the torque limiter assembly from chewing up the aluminum cases.

Title: Re: Cam chain - Replacement
Post by kamelryttarn on 09/14/20 at 05:32:36

Thank you guys. You saved me a lot of grief and frustration! I will fix this and then attach the covers.

Should I keep the surface where the gasket seal completely dry (wipe with acetone/brake clean or similar) or should I apply s small amount of new motor oil for better seal?