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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> frozen rotor bolt /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1427171065 Message started by Jeff71 on 03/23/15 at 21:24:24 |
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Title: frozen rotor bolt Post by Jeff71 on 03/23/15 at 21:24:24 Hey gang, Pulling the front rotor off to swap to my new wheel. Got 3 of the 4 bolts off but actually shattered my 6mm allen wrench on the last one. I've soaked the bolt with PB Blaster and tapped it a few times to get the harmonics going through it. Tried it tonight but it isn't budging. I'm worried about snapping the bolt off. Is it possible to put a "little" heat on the threads to expand it a little or would it make the metal too brittle/soft? Any advice would be appreciated! Thanks! Jeff |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by verslagen1 on 03/23/15 at 21:34:34 don't apply any more force then that little wrench can stand or you'll twist off the head. I'd say heat. wait till someone tells you how. |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by Jeff71 on 03/23/15 at 23:20:29 Hence the reason I'm asking. :D I have time, so if it needs a bit of time for penetrating oil to soak in, no problem. Any advice is appreciated! Jeff |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by FDM on 03/24/15 at 04:12:37 I just ran into this same problem last week. This was the second Savage rotor that I've removed. The first from an 87 with 22k on it came right off with no problems. The one I did last week was from a 96 with less than 4k on it. The bolts on the 96 were absolutely covered in that white factory Loctite. I don't think penetrating oil made much of a difference but suppose it didn't hurt. I ended up stripping the head on one of the bolts because it was so stuck. I had to weld an Allen wrench to the head of the bolt, which obviously did a nice job of heating the bolt up as well. I was then able to slip a piece of steel tubing over the Allen wrench and carefully leverage it unstuck. In the end it came out cleanly and left no damage behind. So I'd say heat and a little leverage. Having the wrench welded to the bolt helped but shouldn't be necessary if your bolt is not stripped. |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by Dave on 03/24/15 at 04:32:58 If the problem is the threadlocker.....maybe the best thing to do is make up your own penetrating oil using 50% Acetone and 50% ATF. It is supposed to be the best penetrating oil around....and maybe the Acetone can loosen up the threadlocker. It is a shame that only the backside of the threads can be accessed....I don't think you will have any luck getting the penetrating oil to go anywhere using the front side...although if some seeps under the bolt head that would help reduce the friction between the bolt head and disc. You might try cleaning up the area really good to get the oil off, then use some RTV silicone to glue a short piece of tubing onto the hub....then when the RTV has cured you can lay the wheel rotor side down - and put the Acetone/ATF mix into the tube so that it can seep down into the hole for an extended period. Laying the wheel where it can get sunlight and periods of heating/cooling cycles will also help. You can also use a hair dryer or low heat from a heat gun to apply some heat to the hub...but not a torch at this point. You have a lot of other work to do and you can let it sit for a long time to soak....and you should buy an allen bit set for your 3/8" ratchet wrench (6mm at a minimum) - as it will allow you to keep the bit fully seated in the bolt head while you are applying lots of pressure on the ratchet...the tiny L shaped allen wrench won't allow you to apply pressure evenly. As a last resort....Heat should be applied to the aluminum hub at the point where the bolt goes through the hub (keep the flame off the end of the bolt as much as possible)....unfortunately aluminum transfers heat incredibly fast....so the heat is going to go everywhere including to the bearings, seals and grease in the hub. The clear coat is also not going to like all that heat. If you are working in the 50 degree garage....maybe try a heat gun before you attempt a torch of any kind. Good Luck...take your time and don't rush it. |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/24/15 at 04:56:44 Put the wrench in a bind, spank on it= impact.. |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/24/15 at 05:07:34 1A212C3B2A263D3B2028253A490 wrote:
This! Over the years I've purchased a lot of "specialty" tools and I'd have to say the a hex set for a 3/8" drive is amongst my favorite (T-Handles too). You can get greater leverage (especially if using a breaker bar) and most importantly, you can use a torque wrench to apply the proper seating torque - this way you'll never go through these types of frozen bolt scenarios again (I know this one was by the factory - but nothing's worse then creating your own). So let it soak, and go buy the right tools - and you'll be good to go. |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by Dave on 03/24/15 at 05:49:32 Another thing I would be tempted to do.....if after all that soaking and sitting...you get the bolt to turn - but it is still really tight. Get the bolt out a couple of turns, then flop everything over and get some of the penetrating oil in the recess on the brake rotor side of the hub....and let it sit for a few days. Then work the bolt in/out a 1/2 turn at a time and see of you can get it too loosen up before you crank it all the way out. |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/24/15 at 08:21:34 And, sometimes tightening just a hair.... |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by Jeff71 on 03/24/15 at 09:08:27 I was thinking using my heat gun and giving the bolt a few quick taps with my brass hammer. Doing the soaking thing is no problem. I'll try that tonight. Jeff |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by pgambr on 03/24/15 at 09:53:12 3832363C373E3A336D6B6F5F0 wrote:
This! Over the years I've purchased a lot of "specialty" tools and I'd have to say the a hex set for a 3/8" drive is amongst my favorite (T-Handles too). You can get greater leverage (especially if using a breaker bar) and most importantly, you can use a torque wrench to apply the proper seating torque - this way you'll never go through these types of frozen bolt scenarios again (I know this one was by the factory - but nothing's worse then creating your own). So let it soak, and go buy the right tools - and you'll be good to go.[/quote] Dave and Gary are spot on. See if there is a harbor freight near you and it will cost $15 for a socket allen heads set. At lowes it will be about $30. I'm guessing it will come off fairly easily when you use one of those. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by Jeff71 on 03/24/15 at 11:06:14 Yeah, Harbor Freight and I go way back. :) I'm busy all next week but I'll be plowing back into it after Easter. Going to get it soak for a good week before I even try anything to it. Jeff |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by Art Webb on 03/24/15 at 15:45:47 3E2127203D3A0B3B0B33212D66540 wrote:
this works near as well as an actual impact wrench |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/24/15 at 16:19:25 Deep socket, extension, Allen wrench. Small hammer.. |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by Dave on 03/24/15 at 17:31:16 4D5E585B494E4E2C0 wrote:
this works near as well as an actual impact wrench[/quote] OK....show me how this works on an "L" shaped allen wrench? :-? |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by Dave on 03/24/15 at 17:32:45 4D5E585B494E4E2C0 wrote:
this works near as well as an actual impact wrench[/quote] This isn't going to work on an "L" shaped allen wrench? :-? It will only help to strip out the hex in the bolt. It also doesn't work on open end wrenches.....it just rounds the hex off the bolt head. |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/24/15 at 17:37:18 The only tool that's works like or as good as an impact driver, is an impact driver. |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/24/15 at 18:14:11 I don't recommend what I haven't done. And I've done this many times. That's not to say it can't be done clumsily or ham fisted and a mess made of it, but I've been very successful with this approach. |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by Art Webb on 03/24/15 at 18:36:39 69525F4859554E48535B56493A0 wrote:
this works near as well as an actual impact wrench[/quote] This isn't going to work on an "L" shaped allen wrench? :-? It will only help to strip out the hex in the bolt. It also doesn't work on open end wrenches.....it just rounds the hex off the bolt head. [/quote] it will if you have a proper bind on it and 'tap' not 'whang the heck out of' it does work better with an allen bit and a ratchet, but I've done it with the 'L' wrenches I don't really recomend using L wrenches at all, tbh, they're crap the key is having that bind on it, so the flats are already pressed against the inside flats of the bolt, and you need to press inward with the heel of the palm, too I would still, however, prefer a bit and ratchet and it doesn't work with an open end? someone better tell all the stuck nuts / line fittings I broke loose with an open end that way, because It works, even with an open end, more than it doesn't, if you're not using Chinese tools |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by Art Webb on 03/24/15 at 18:39:35 3E34303A31383C356B6D69590 wrote:
I said near as good, shock works, whether it's applied via a power tool or a hammer and wrench also note that an impact wrench doesn't work quite the same way and impact driver does |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by gizzo on 03/25/15 at 00:03:42 I would go to town with the heat gun (actually I'd use a flame because I don't care if the laquer burns off) on the flange with the jammed screw. There's nothing like heat to get that thread locker unlocked, plus the hub's aluminium and will expand a lot quicker than the bolt. My 2c, YMMV etc. |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by Dave on 03/25/15 at 02:58:58 If you are going to be hammering on tools.....this is the most productive tool to own. I don't know how you ever get the Phillips head screws out of an engine case on a motorcycle without one of these. Only $ 23 at Sears....and yes Harbor Freight most likely has a cheap version for less. It works with the screw inserts, or any 3/8" drive socket. You really need one of these if you are going to work on motorcycles...it was one of the first tools I ever owned, and I am still using the one I bought in 1972. (Although I have had to buy a few replacement bits over the years). You just insert the bit of your choice and place it on the fastener, hold onto the tool with your left hand like you are trying to turn the tool in the direction of removal and hold it tightly into the fastener, and then hit the end hard with a hammer. The tool transforms the impact force into a rotational force. The tool will work in either direction, and you have to make sure the tool is set for the direction you want it to move by twisting the tool in the direction you want to go. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUOghfo7VGI [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUOghfo7VGI[/media] |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/25/15 at 05:17:26 Dave, I have owned a Craftsman version of that tool for nearly 35 years, and I don't think I've ever had success with it. Maybe my technique sucks. What I have had luck with over the years are long - 16" to 20" - screw drivers. The extra leverage they afford makes a night and day difference from standard length screw drivers. For some reason, I can push much harder, allowing for additional twist/torque. |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by Dave on 03/25/15 at 05:24:44 6D676369626B6F66383E3A0A0 wrote:
Must be technique....it takes a bit of practice. Watch the video, and notice how his hand is torquing the tool in the direction you want it to turn while you hit it - they work great! |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/25/15 at 06:03:12 546F6275646873756E666B74070 wrote:
Looks like I'm not as aggressive with the hits as the demonstrator. He's hitting that hard with a large hammer. |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by gizzo on 03/25/15 at 06:25:59 Like Dave said, you really need to torque the impact driver in the direction you want to turn the screw. Just whacking it with the hammer doesn't work so well. Its a brilliant tool once you get the hang of it and pretty much the only thing that will undo those horrible screws they used to use in the 70's and 80's on jap bike crankcases.be surprised if one didn't work on that disc screw. (+ heat!) Good luck. |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by gizzo on 03/25/15 at 06:28:46 JoG, what's a "bind"? I haven't heard that before. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/25/15 at 08:23:08 Pressure, not sufficient to break anything, just get all the slack out and put some load on it. Be aware that striking it,more flex will be the result. Slowly increase the pressure, and, lest any cry HERETIC for striking a tool other a punch or chisel, remember, we own them so that they can serve us to solve problems. I've heated, bent, I've even cut a 1 3/8 Craftsman wrench in half to get into a tight spot on the backhoe. OR I could have spent several hours and injured my shoulders further disassembling to gain access. If you have a socket and an Allen wrench, cut the Allen wrench and put it in the socket,, Or, put a socket on an extension, put the Allen wrench in the bolt head, pull hard enough to see a slight flex in the Allen wrench, use anything LIGHT , a hard stick, something that you can spank on it with. I Prefer not to use a ratchet here, because it won't flex. You know I am always pointing out that Dave has it right. Well, I can't on this. I have many times done what I'm saying. I still much appreciate what Dave has done for this place and respect his skills and experience, but here I disagree. Quick, quick, quick, imitate an impact. Also, put a pin punch down in the head of the bolt, smack the crap out of it several times.. rattle the threads. If you have a butane powered soldering tool , take the tip off, heat the bolt till the female threads are hot, stick ice on the bolt head, get busy with the wrench. Even one of those flex tip refillable butane lighters for fireplaces could help you. I've seen giving a bolt a jolt to tighten it break things loose. Once it starts to come out, don't get excited and just go to cranking on it. Take care, oil. Turn it right, let the oil cool and lube the bolt, FEEL of it all the way out. |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by Dave on 03/25/15 at 08:34:19 4D5254534E4978487840525E15270 wrote:
If the "correct" tools weren't available....and affordable....I might have a different opinion. $ 8.99 from Sears and you can (and should) have a hex bit set that will fit your ratchet. http://www.sears.com/craftsman-evolv-7-pc-hex-bit-socket-set/p-00910058000P If Jeff71 had one of these in his toolbox....this thread would most likely not exist. If you are out in the middle of nowhere and don't have the correct $ 8.99 tool....then put on the wrench, find a fence post, and "spank it". I will admit that on occasion I have had to stand on a breaker bar and bounce....or take the handle off my floor jack to use a leverage multiplier! ;D |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/25/15 at 08:39:51 A ratchet, IMO, is not the best answer. |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by Jeff71 on 03/25/15 at 08:50:55 I've used the impact tool before. Craftsman; wore that thing out in one season working on my VWs!. I should get a new one. I HAD a 6mm 3/8" socket but torqued the tip about 30* so it doesn't fit things anymore. :-? I'm going to let it soak for a good week with the acetone combo, give it a few raps and then see what it feels like. I won't be working on the bike for a few days anyway. (Finals, grades and next term prep gets CRAZY!) Jeff |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by Art Webb on 03/25/15 at 12:03:56 13282532232F343229212C33400 wrote:
If you own a motorcycle, especially one with the 'phillips' screws that are NOT philips,you need one of these babies, they are worth their weight |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/25/15 at 12:37:22 The HF version I have required being disassembled and the internal ramps smoothed out. They are especially good for screws, because driving in helps keep the screwdriver tip in the screw. And on a stuck bolt you're getting the rotation AND vibration all at once.. |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by Jeff71 on 04/09/15 at 18:51:05 Hey guys, About 2 weeks ago I was spraying a bit of PB blaster on the bolt and giving it a few light taps with my brass mallet. I gave it one last soak and then went to Tucson for 10 days (ahhhhhhh....). Came back Sunday, gave it another treatment Monday and bought a 6mm 3/8" drive allen today. Put the wrench on it and gently tapped it FORWARD then backwards to see if I could shock it a little. It did the trick. It was crazy tight but it came out. It was covered with a lot of pink looking (loctite?) stuff. I cleaned everything up, swapped the rotor to the new wheel and got my front end up and going. Spins true! Need to check the balance yet though. Thanks for all the ideas and suggestions! 8-) Jeff |
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Title: Re: frozen rotor bolt Post by swing69 on 04/09/15 at 19:24:34 "pink"????????? in loctite terms: blue is normally med. strength, red is high strength. Factory screws have a chalky tinge of the threads, the factory threadlocker (if used). Sounds to me like someone was in there as some point and used "red". That normally requires heat to remove. I'd say you got lucky if that was the case! anyhow. glad you're home free now. |
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