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Message started by Jsud04 on 09/30/14 at 06:31:39

Title: engine braking
Post by Jsud04 on 09/30/14 at 06:31:39

So I am searching the forum for info on engine braking the savage. I don't see too much? I engine break from 4 to 3 and 3 to 2? Acceptable? Opinions?

Title: Re: engine braking
Post by thumperclone on 09/30/14 at 06:42:34

I do it
think most clutch wear comes from it

Title: Re: engine braking
Post by Dave on 09/30/14 at 06:49:40

When cruising along in any gear, I use the throttle to control the speed and will slow down or speed up by using the throttle....and I apply brakes if I need to slow down faster. If the speed reduction is enough that I need to change gears - most the speed reduction is done with the brakes. I generally have the throttle open just a pinch while slowing down and I don't allow the throttle to close completely.....as using the engine for braking purposes is where all the pops and bangs and backfires occur. It is less noisy to use the brakes for braking...then it is to use the engine for braking.

Title: Re: engine braking
Post by Jsud04 on 09/30/14 at 07:22:25

If I'm not worried about noise, is the engine breaking doing any real harm?

Title: Re: engine braking
Post by Dave on 09/30/14 at 07:57:39

073E3829283F3E7D794D0 wrote:

If I'm not worried about noise, is the engine breaking doing any real harm?

An engine breaking does harm....engine braking....not so much.

Engine braking is not going to break anything........the engine still gets oiled, and the parts most likely won't be over-stressed. Not only are you putting the stress on the engine - you are putting it on the belt drive, the pulleys, the rubber cushion in the rear hub, and the rear tire.

Dowatchyawant........for a long gradual reduction in speed it works fine. But when you are slowing down at a moderate to fast pace......a combination of front/rear brakes and downshifting is a better riding style.

Title: Re: engine braking
Post by verslagen1 on 09/30/14 at 08:29:38

0E35382F3E32292F343C312E5D0 wrote:

Dowatchyawant........for a long gradual reduction in speed it works fine. But when you are slowing down at a moderate to fast pace......a combination of front/rear brakes and downshifting is a better riding style.

truedat...

For a newb, operating 2 levers, a throttle, a shifter and a pedal all in perfect synchronicity is near impossible and not recommended... but sweet when you can. 8-)

The advantage (as I see it) of engine braking is with our touchy rear brake, moderate to heavy braking can be done with a more confidence, as the engine will aid in preventing the rear wheel from locking up.

Title: Re: engine braking
Post by Jsud04 on 09/30/14 at 08:36:08

LOL good call Dave...

Title: Re: engine braking
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/30/14 at 08:48:32

Man,, Downshifting & lissnin to it fart & grumble is half of the fun of riding a Savage.. The other half is seeing how quick itll get across town,, AND in order to do that Youve gotta use the transmission,, comin and goin,, You can upshift w/o even touching the clutch, from 2nd on up, and you can go from 5th down to 2nd, To learn, play with it from 4th to 5th,, do that and youll learn it..& believe me, it can make some pretty awful noises and you can jerk it around REAL hard & not hurt a thing.. I KNow,, cuz I did that, when I was TRying to figure out how to downshift into first w/o a clutch,,, It CAN be done, I did it a few times, BUT, when it doesnt work well,, it is really not good.. so, I dont play around with first..
Theres no way the clutch sees more wear from downshifting, as long as you sync the engine up to the transmission as you go.. and Id never dream of downshifting without gassin it.. ever,,

Its a dang shame theres not a place to go to spend a day learning to drive old trucks,, ya know? Just a dango 2 ton would be good enough. Learn to double clutch and downshift to set up for a turn..

Title: Re: engine braking
Post by Serowbot on 09/30/14 at 10:33:42

I engine brake 5th, do a McQueen style double clutch, engine brake 3rd, then use front brake to stop...
..not 'cause it's the right way,.. just 'cause it sounds cool... ;D...

Title: Re: engine braking
Post by zipidachimp on 09/30/14 at 20:37:59

$$$$brake pads cheaper than clutch/trans!!!! :D

Title: Re: engine braking
Post by Kris01 on 09/30/14 at 20:51:43

These bikes slow down pretty quickly when you are off the gas. It's just the nature of a single. Most of the time I engine brake because it's almost as good as using the real brakes. I use the front and rear brakes to stop but not to slow down unless I have to slow down very quickly.

Title: Re: engine braking
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/30/14 at 21:40:30

Zip,,it's not Hurting it.. READ the post,,How matters.. if someone is not In Tune with machines,then maybe brakes are the Best thing..
I sold mine with 20,000 miles on it.. I had been forced to wire the rubber on one peg,because I had dragged it through so many turns it was cut on the bottom. The end cap was close to falling off. It was running better than ever,just did the raptor,zero shift problem,,clutch was just fine.. Who is doing the doing matters.. I'm seriously just a natural. I grabbed a 3 speed,on the column pick-up when I was probably 5or so.. I only went to second ,I Was in an alfalfa field,holding myself up by the wheel,working pedals and steering. I didn't kill it,smoke the clutch or lug it.. I got a talking to, but I guess I did a good enough job of driving that they were too impressed to spank me,,.
If you've never driven a big truck,it would help you understand how a machine really works.

Title: Re: engine braking
Post by cafecarl on 10/01/14 at 08:41:09

AMA grand national flat track bikes didn't have brakes on them until 1969 when they became optional and weren't required until '77. To me, engine braking is part of motorcycling. Sometimes I find myself hitting one of the brake levers just to activate the brake light. I figure if the drive train is strong enough withstand me wrenching the throttle open, it ought to be strong enough take closing it (smoothly and within reason).

Title: Re: engine braking
Post by Dave on 10/01/14 at 09:13:24

630748454D4C47290 wrote:

AMA grand national flat track bikes didn't have brakes on them until 1969 when they became optional and weren't required until '77.

So....You suggesting we throw the bike sideways whenever we need to scrub off some speed?

Title: Re: engine braking
Post by Rembrandt on 10/19/14 at 20:32:57

Matching engine and transmission for slowing down in normal time, so to speak by downshifting is just normal riding or driving isn't it? I've driven standard cars and trucks most of my life too, from nasty old Chevy three-speeds to easy, synchro-mesh five speed Japanese cars, and I'm always amazed when I talk to people driving standard cars who say they push in the clutch and brake only...always...are you kidding me???? It's rare, but such people are out there and I really don't get it. By downshifting, I get 100 thousand kms, or about 60 thousand miles out of front brakes on my vehicles. I have a 99 Toyota Rav 4 with original back brakes, fourth set of front pads and recently, new rotors from original installed about 20 000 kms ago. The Rav has 428 000 kms on it. Downshifting to brake is an integral and natural part of any standard vehicle. Find an automatic if this concept doesn't make sense, is my determination and reasoning.

Title: Re: engine braking
Post by Rembrandt on 10/19/14 at 20:34:44

And, especially in winter or slippery conditions, I feel I have far better control over my vehicle driving this way.

Title: Re: engine braking
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/19/14 at 20:36:37

I get the pikachewer, Remmy,,

Title: Re: engine braking
Post by runwyrlph on 10/20/14 at 16:53:37

10272F2030232C2636420 wrote:

Engine braking is good for automatics, too.

I was driving in the Laurel Highlands a few months back - one of those 2 mile downgrades - friend was behind me, asked how I didn't runaway since I hardly touched the brakes.

He was almost amazed at the concept of using a lower gear. I asked him why he thought they even bothered putting 1-2-3-d on there!

Title: Re: engine braking
Post by Rembrandt on 10/20/14 at 17:27:52

runw...you make completely valid points. I too have downshifted my automatic cars in slippery and/or hilly areas....I like how you think.

Title: Re: engine braking
Post by MnSpring on 10/20/14 at 17:51:31

Engine Breaking, is a 'tool'. It is a very simple, 'tool'. Like a wrench, ya gotta know: "Rity Tighty, Lefety Loosey". Or, "Clockwise/Counter clockwise". (Unless you grew up with everything, Digital, not analog. LOL)

Use the, 'tool', engine breaking, whenever you need it.
(If you don't know how, just ask)

And Yes Virgina, Even a 'Auto' Transmission, (as a previous post says so well), their is a REASON, their are different numbers, on the 'shift' lever, outside of, the, big, "D". It is Not only, for going 'up' hills, or pulling a trailer !

A year ago I bought this little used, '07, HHR. ( I wasn't looking at a HHR, but after I drove it, their is a LOT of room, in that, 'little' car).
(( I was very surprised))

(It is a 5 Speed Manual). As we were sitting in the car after the test drive, the, 'young', salesman said: "You know this is really a 'rare', car, it is a manual transmission". I said: "No it's not, it's a 'cheep', car. How many people have got in this car, and asked, 'what is that other pedal for', I'll give you xxx". As I was walking to the car I came in with, he came after me: "Wait, Wait, !!! Let me talk to my manager". I bought it for what I stated, which was 1,800 less than the, 'sticker', price.

And it all comes down to, Very Few, Know, how to drive a, 'stick' any more.

Engine breaking, is a 'tool'. Learn to use it, Understand it, Embrace it, and you will do well.

Title: Re: engine braking
Post by Kris01 on 10/20/14 at 19:56:19

Manual transmissions were popular in the old muscle cars because you could control the RPMs better. Just choose whatever gear suits you. Nowadays, pretty much any car with a manual is looked down on as being cheap. Auto transmissions are usually a $1000 option. Car makers throw the auto in a vehicle to make a little more profit while unsuspecting buyers don't realize that they're paying for the "upgrade".

Title: Re: engine braking
Post by jcstokes on 10/21/14 at 00:58:27

Alfred P Sloan stated in his book "My Years With General Motors" stated "in the model year 1962 about 74 per cent of all passenger cars sold in the United States were equipped with automatic transmissions". That's one and a half to two generations ago, depending on how you measure a generation. In my country the demand for manuals, except in the smallest cars is non existent, even most sporty stuff is automatic. The manual is for utes/pickups and a lot of those are going automatic.

Title: Re: engine braking
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/21/14 at 11:11:26

Unless youre ready to run down thru the gears quickly, using the gas and ankle, no clutch needed,, or, you Can use the clutch and IF youre riding a HOT machine, you might just be better off, because IF you jam it in a lower gear than youve synched the motor to, you Might just find the rear tire not agreeing with the speed youre moving and high side the thing,,, But, the Savage is mild and I was able to fly up on a turn and start running down thru gears and set up for a corner and be in the gear I needed to start accelerating from the apex. Getting the slack outta the throttle cable was something I did that took some "lag" out of the accelerating. I noticed I was twisting and nothing was happening for a split second,, I didnt like that,, I used the transmission and used it hard. I learned to shift w/o the clutch, from 2nd to 3rd and up, from 5th to 2nd.. The RPM jump between 1st and 2nd is just too much to be consistently smooth between 1st and 2nd. I did it a few times, but I couldnt "Nail it" every time and the lurch that put in the belt and hub rubbers when I didnt, just not worth it..

The spot where youre not accelerating and not decelerating is when the cogs in the tranny arent loaded and a shift can be made, immediately , if youve downshifted, you need to give it a little gas to synch the engine to the tranny, then, let off,, Its a quick, small "goose", Going up in gears, slap the gas off, shift, twist,, PLay between 4th and 5th to get comfortable with it, because thats the least rpm difference and the rear wheel has the advantage in leverage thru the tranny, its just the lightest "work" on the driveline in those gears..

I rode the pants off of it after I ditched the OEM tires at 5,000 miles.
Ive had it laid into a turn so hard my foot was being hurt from the pressure of the peg pinching it against the engine. I sold it at 20,000 miles and it didnt feel like a ragged out, beat up piece of crap. It didnt leak, it didnt use more oil than it should and it ran as hard as it ever did. It shifted and acted like it had been babied, They have a Good transmission, as bikes go. Yea, they can act a little goofy sometimes, but Ive seen other bikes that have a notorious;ly clunky or "Jump outta gear
False neutrals,, all kindsa hassles,, Overall,, these rate pretty high on the transmission and clutch.. You CAN ride it like its a race bike, as far as running at a corner goes, just dont get so goofy as to downshift to a gear at a speed the engine wouldnt want to accelerate to.. Youll either have the rear tire sliding ( which can be a very bad thing at speed,, you get that thing about sideways and pull the clutch inb, the rear tire rolls and gets traction and Whammo,, highside) or, you over rap the motor.. thats a lose lose,,

I missed finishing the thot..

Unless youre ready to run down thru the gears quickly, you cant set up for making the best time thru a corner, because youre not getting in the best gear to accelerate out from the apex, and youre not in the best gear for going in,, The tranny is the TOOL you use for applying the engines torque to the road,, It Does what it Does Best at a relatively narrow RPM range. If you wanna play Ricky Road Racer, you can, these things turn a lot better than the " walk up and look at the frame geometry" would leave a guy believing. I was shocked at how nimble that "Cruiser" steering head geometry could be. This bikes inherent instability in a long sweeper kept me from running hotter thru places that a better bike would have allowed.. Which kept me from getting in over my head.

Find some roads with curves that challenge you, look at your exit speeds, pay attention to what line youre picking, feel of the bike, every time you go thru, pay attention and try yo learn,,
On That NOTE,, You never KNOW if something is spilled in the road, or someone dropped some bricks,, If you cant see THRU,, dont RACE thru,, Ive been known to ride thru a section, look, turn around and play,, and I was rewarded with increases in exit speeds. I was shocked when I discovered I could exit one particular , not a 90, but a sharp bend, almost a 90, but it has a radius that a car is reasonably comfortable doing at 30ish,, I found I could exit faster not dragging a peg,, Still dont really grock that..