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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> The Cafe >> Cafe' Bike rim and tire sizes. /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1405961486 Message started by Dave on 07/21/14 at 09:51:24 |
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Title: Cafe' Bike rim and tire sizes. Post by Dave on 07/21/14 at 09:51:24 When I built my Cafe's conversion on my Savage, I did what everyone else does and looked at what RYCA and other folks were doing. As a result I used a 2.15 x 18 front rim with a 100/90-18 tire, and a 2.50 x 18 rear rim with a 130/70-18 tire. This looked fine to me - however next to a Sport Bike my tires look very narrow. I have also noticed that my tires have a very "round" look across the tread pattern - while the Sport bikes appear more oval which results in more tread on the road. I have a friend that has been around motorcycles most of his life, and he road races a Ducati, and regularly works on vintage Norton's, Ducati's, Triumphs and BSA bikes. He rode my bike just after I got it running, and his first comment was the bike had too wide of tires and would handle better with a narrower tire....... I needed to take my rear tire off, and since the Pirelli Sport Demon had a big flat spot worn down the center of the tread......I decided I might as well get a new tire. I decided to order a new Battlax BT45 in the 130/70-18 size as it has a dual tread compound with a harder center to help prevent wearing out the center tread too soon. The first thing I noticed when mounting it....was how far apart the beads were, and it was a bit of a challenge mounting it on my 2.50 inch rim. I went for a ride that afternoon....and I noticed that I am just kind of teetering around on the center of the tire.....it would be impossible to lean over far enough to reach the edge of the tire and I am leaving huge "Chicken Strips" on the sides of the tire where I will never be able to lean over far enough to rub on the pavement. So this morning I did a little research, and Bridgestone recommends that the 130/70-18 tire be mounted on a 3.50-18 rim....which is an inch wider than my 2.50 rim! So....I am most likely going to take my friends advice and install a 90/90-18 on the front and a 110/80-18 on the rear. Going to the narrower tires is supposed to make it handle "better".....and maybe that will help with how my bike currently steers. MMRanch rode my bike and said at the first corner when he went to turn.....it felt like he was "Trying to bend a board".....the bike does turn really stiff.....you need a lot of pressure on the handlebars to initiate a turn. The narrower tires will probably also make the tread profile a bit flatter - as the current tires are rounded excessively by the narrow rims pulling the beads in an inch more than they are supposed to be. You can see in the attached photo how round the tread pattern is, and how far the tread rolls over on side of the tire...most likely a result of the tires being on too narrow of rims. So.....I have no experience in this area - but it appears that I (and many others) may be using too wide of tires on the Cafe' conversions. Any experienced input is welcome. Dave Notice the tread profile difference in the photo below. The rear tire tread is rolled over onto the sidewall as a result of the too wide of tire for the rim - while the front tire is the proper size for the rim. The "Chicken Strips" on the front tire went to within 1/4" of the tread edge on the front - and on the rear there was near a full 1" of tread that was rolled over onto the sidewall and not useable. |
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Title: Re: Cafe' Bike rim and tire sizes. Post by Kris01 on 07/21/14 at 12:51:42 Good info Dave! |
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Title: Re: Cafe' Bike rim and tire sizes. Post by Dave on 07/21/14 at 13:10:29 78415A400302330 wrote:
I don't know if it is good info or not.....at this point I am torn between putting a 3.50 inch rear rim and running the 130 rear tire...or putting narrower tires on. At this point I am most likely to put a set of narrower tires on......as that is what my "road racing" friend recommends, and mounting tires is cheaper and easier than lacing on a new rear rim. Dave |
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Title: Re: Cafe' Bike rim and tire sizes. Post by Dave on 07/21/14 at 15:40:07 OK......I did some measuring when I got home. The 130/70 tire is supposed to be mounted on a 3.50 inch wide rim, and when mounted on a 2.50 inch rim it is only 116 mm wide. The beads are pulled in a full inch by the rim, and that pulls the sidewalls/tread in about 14mm. If I were to install a 110/80 tire on the 2.5 inch rim - it will only be 6 mm narrower than the 130 tire....and I betcha the tread is going to have more contact with the paving. Dave |
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Title: Re: Cafe' Bike rim and tire sizes. Post by WD on 07/21/14 at 20:30:42 No more "clown shoes" on your bike? Oh, the horror... ;) You'll see a dramatic, immediately noticed improvement in handling, lean angle, launch feel and braking. The stock rim set should be wearing 90/90-19 front and 130/90-15 rear tires. If you could still find 120/80-15 rears, even better. The factory goes for "the look" when choosing what tires to run, handling is irrelevant. Most customizers do the same thing. You'll seriously love the narrower 18 inchers. |
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Title: Re: Cafe' Bike rim and tire sizes. Post by Serowbot on 07/21/14 at 22:41:29 By my calculations,.. (which I do manually, by touching my tongue to my nose and tilting my head 45 degrees),... I calculate, that you can maintain traction beyond 90' degrees... ...approaching 110' degrees!... using the 130/70-18 tires... This assumes that you mount the right footpeg on the leftside, and the left on the right, for clearance... ... and my tongue may be off due to a Pico de Gallo incident earlier today... :-?... The necessity of the peg switch, may make this calculation moot... ...seeing that you may end up facing backwards... ...but, hey... it's just math... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Cafe' Bike rim and tire sizes. Post by verslagen1 on 07/21/14 at 23:23:26 5345524F57424F54200 wrote:
Yeeeah, I know what gallo your tongue got pico of. :-? |
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Title: Re: Cafe' Bike rim and tire sizes. Post by Dave on 07/22/14 at 04:18:32 Well I ordered a 90/90-18 front tire and a 110/80-18 rear tire last night. J.C. Motors was having a summer sale, and I bought the Bridgestone Battlax BT45. As I was searching the internet looking for clues - I found that it is a common practice for us "tire noobs" to want to put on a wider tire to get more footprint. The response from those in the "know" is that the tire must be correct for the rim width, and their advice is stick with the width that is assigned to the rim width. We have become used to looking at all those really wide tires on the custom bikes....when in reality that is there to get the "look"....and not the "handling". I may have fallen into the "too much tire" routine by mounting what all the other Cafe' conversions were doing - time will tell if less tire means more handling.....I will keep you informed. Dave |
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Title: Re: Cafe' Bike rim and tire sizes. Post by gizzo on 07/22/14 at 05:09:17 Good on you, Dave. Cafe bikes look best on skinny tyres. Don't worry about the chicken strip thing. No one who matters cares how big they are. I can't lose the 1/2" strips on my Pantah and Enfield GT, and run out of ground clearance before I run out of tyre unless I really hang off the bike. If you fit the right size tyre, it will probably steer sweeter and be less effort to ride faster. |
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Title: Re: Cafe' Bike rim and tire sizes. Post by Dave on 07/22/14 at 05:35:13 Well it is easy to get caught up in the tire wars, and tough to sort out what is correct. Vintage bikes had narrow tires and were not real fast, modern sport bikes have wide tires are are fast.....ergo......I need wide tires to go fast. :-/ In reality I am trying to keep 30+ HP in control....not 125 HP. Well.....here is one tire fad I am not likely to get involved in. I would rather be "carving corners"....not carving tire treads. |
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Title: Re: Cafe' Bike rim and tire sizes. Post by old_rider on 07/22/14 at 05:40:13 Yeah, the last thunder beach I seen the tire carving thing....was just for bike shows.... They put them on the bikes right before they put the bikes on display... |
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Title: Re: Cafe' Bike rim and tire sizes. Post by Dave on 07/24/14 at 11:22:07 Well....It seems I have some work to do. My new 90/90-18 front and 110/80-18 rear tires and tubes came in the mail today. The wife left town to visit her mom for a few days - so some quality time in the garage is in order. |
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Title: Re: Cafe' Bike rim and tire sizes. Post by Dave on 07/25/14 at 04:31:15 Last night I spent about 3 hours changing tires on my bike. The local places wanted $ 30 - $ 35 a wheel for changing tires if I brought in only the wheel. I suppose that I spent about 2 hours of time wrestling the tires on/off the rim.....the other hour went to taking wheels on and off the bike, getting a drink, adjusting the radio, etc. I guess $ 30 an hour savings for my time is worth it. I finished about 10:15 - so it was too late to take a ride last night. Knowing that I might be changing tires more than once, I mounted some T-Nuts in the back of a piece of plywood, cut a couple of oak boards, and used some long bolts to make a way to pull the beads off the rims. http://i59.tinypic.com/162901h.jpg The tires are definitely smaller. The rear one is not that noticeably smaller and looks fine. A wider tire would look more "manly" - but this evenings ride will tell which handles and ride better. http://i62.tinypic.com/14j6u12.jpg The front tire is only slightly narrower - but is definitely shorter in height. I don't like the way the front fender fits anymore. If this tire works out better I will have to go with a shorter radius fender - lowering the fender would only get it close in the middle and the ends would still be high. http://i62.tinypic.com/2cp9dvr.jpg http://i62.tinypic.com/2dwezye.jpg So...the test ride tonight will let me know if this is the right thing. I will take it easy for a while to get the tires scrubbed in. If the bike doesn't handle any better.....then I can go back to the 100/90-18 front tire on the existing 2.15x18 rim. For the back rim if I go to the 130/70-18 tire I will change the 2.50x18 rim to a 3.50x18 rim....which is what that size tire is supposed to be mounted on. These smaller tires don't do much for the looks of the bike - the rear pulley and other parts of this bike are kind of beefy looking, and the bigger tires help to compliment that look. It is not a dainty little RD350 or similar petite looking bike in some respects. Dave |
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Title: Re: Cafe' Bike rim and tire sizes. Post by Dave on 07/26/14 at 09:07:06 Well.....so far the results are promising. I have ridden the bike for about 100 miles and the narrower tires seem to be just fine. The front tire has a lot of nubs.....it looks hairy.....and they just don't seem to want to wear off. The rear tire has a lot fewer and they are going away much faster. Since the tires are on a rim that is the proper width - the tread no longer rolls over on the sidewalls like it used to, and the tread will be usable and actually touch the pavement when leaned over hard. I can't say that I have noticed a night/day difference in handling, as I have not pushed it yet. For normal calm riding I really can't tell much of a difference. At the end of August I am going back down to ride the Dragon area.....that may provide some additional feedback. For those folks going to build a Cafe' bike - my suggestion is decide if you want the traditional "light" cafe look, and if so use the 2.50-18 rear rim with a 110/80-18 tire and a 2.15x18 front rim with a 90/90-18 tire. If you want more "beefy" tire that looks more like a modern sport bike, then install the proper rims before you add wider tires. With a 3.50-18 rear rim you can run the 130/70-18 tire and with the 2.15 or 2.50x18 front rim you can use a 100/90-18 tire. REAR TIRE http://i59.tinypic.com/24qtt3t.jpg FRONT TIRE http://i58.tinypic.com/j77qsn.jpg For those of us who have already built our bikes with the narrow rims....it is a harder choice. I am going to run these narrow tires the rest of the year....then maybe next winter put a 3.50x18 rim on a hub and mount the 130/70-18 tire I have.....and see how it looks and handles. The smaller tire would look fine - if it was not for the fact that I built a fender that works better with the larger front tire. I will update this post after the trip to the Dragon on August 28th. Dave |
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Title: Re: Cafe' Bike rim and tire sizes. Post by Dave on 05/06/15 at 03:50:35 As an update to this thread....... I have been making a lot of changes in the bike. One of which is to get rid of the RM400 forks - the small offset from the yokes to the steering stem made the bike have too much trail, and the steering was very stiff. It was hard to tell any difference in the tires widths....as the bike was determined it wanted to continue in a straight line. I have made a spacer that lowers the front fender so the gap between the fender and smaller tires is where it should be. I currently have 2 sets of rims with tires mounted, and this summer I will be able to make some evaluations on what tire to use. I have stopped using the 100/90-18 front tire....it just seems to be too tall, and there are limited tire choices in that size. Several companies are making better performance tires that will fit the Cafe conversion (Pirelli Sport Demon, Battlax BT45, Avon Road Rider). I have one set of rims with a 90/90-18 front and a 110/80-18 rear tire. They are plenty of tire for the bike....although after seeing all the wide tires on motorcycles the rear does look a bit narrow. I have another set of rims with a 100/80-18 tire on the front, and a 130/70-18 tire on a 3.50-18 rear rim. The wide rim and wider tire definitely looks beefier. I will be using both these rims/tires this summer and figure out if there is much difference in the way they perform. My new GPS speedometer has a 0-60mph and a 1/4 mile timer....so I can see how much difference in acceleration the larger tires causes. |
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Title: Re: Cafe' Bike rim and tire sizes. Post by Art Webb on 05/06/15 at 10:25:42 Reading back through the whole thread I gotta say I agree with WD I've said it before, my 95 horse 600lb touring bike currently has a narrower rear tire than my S40, and I've had the experience before of going to narrower tires on a bike and getting noticeably easier tip in, leading to tighter cornering even for my less aggressive riding style (what can I say, I don't like crashing ;D ) |
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Title: Re: Cafe' Bike rim and tire sizes. Post by botticelli on 05/06/15 at 13:42:31 Dave, Here is the way I see it... What it really comes down to is the choice for the Rear rim width, and tire size. The good thing about a 2.5 or 2.15 in the front is that both can run the correct sizes in question. The 90/90 18 and the 100/90 18. If you really wanted more tire up front, most tire charts I have found state the a 110/80 and a 110/90 will be ok on both(2.15 and 2.5) of the front rim widths. Can you go into further detail when you say the 100/90 is too tall? This just aesthetics? At 90mm it is really close to the height of the 110/80 at 88mm that I am considering up front. To anyone changing from the factory 19 rim, I recommend changing to a 2.5-18 for the most tire option compatibility in the front. As you mentioned, any new builders, may want to hold off on front fender fabrication until you find one of these front 4 tire sizes that works for you and your bike. (Although I now get wet, and the bike gets dirty, I'm planning on making my front fender once.) Now onto the rear.... Dave I am interested in hearing your results in comparing the 130/70-18 tire on a 3.50-18 and the 110/80-18 on the 2.5-18. Just a guess :o, but I think you will find enough tire for the bike with either choice. One may look better, or worse to different people, Personally I like the narrow tire look front and back. But, I am more interested, if your up for it, for you to try another combination. Front: 100/80-18 on 2.5-18 Rear: 110/80-18 on 2.5-18 I'm curious and wondering about the possibility on running the same size front and back. 110/80-18 The Avon Road runner in this size is approved for both front and rear applications. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000MQ6KRO/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=24UTWFEA05FXD&coliid=IRCQ3IWFCIJFB&psc=1 |
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Title: Re: Cafe' Bike rim and tire sizes. Post by Grinin on 02/18/19 at 03:46:26 I am interested in your follow up with the wider rims and tires. Thanks |
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Title: Re: Cafe' Bike rim and tire sizes. Post by Dave on 02/18/19 at 04:29:22 This is a very old thread.....Botticelli's last post on the forum was made 8/15, and he last signed onto the forum 11/16. Here is a link to the newest thread on tires for the Cafe' bikes. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1435340395 |
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Title: Re: Cafe' Bike rim and tire sizes. Post by Armen on 02/20/19 at 21:33:59 My 1,000cc Airhead BMW came with 2.50x18 wheels front and rear. The factory recommended a 120 rear tire. couldn't control myself, thought the 120 looked too skinny. When it wore out, I went to a 130. I was amazed how much worse it handled with the 130. Harder to roll over into a corner. Went back to a 120 rear, and the bike is happier. |
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