|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Re: Touchy clutches /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1398682819 Message started by Oldfeller on 04/28/14 at 04:09:19 |
|
Title: Re: Touchy clutches Post by Oldfeller on 04/28/14 at 04:09:19 We have a rising topic of "touchy clutches" here on the list. First question a touchy clutch person gets asked by the helper folks is "What sort of oil are you running?" Historically, most times it was a car oil of some variety, so the newbie is quickly referred to the Recommended oil list and most times that takes care of it. However, in reviewing the Recommended Oils I just got reminded we got an open question concerning the last reformulation go round on the Synthetics on that recommended list where 60ppm of organic moly oil showed up in all three of our recommended synthetic oils, Rotella T6 and in Mobile1 Racing & Mobil1 V-Twin due to a reformulation across the board on all the premium brands of synthetic oils. The reason the moly oil was put into the synthetics was for very long term durability, something we don't get to use on our bikes because of silica (dust) build up due to motorcycles not having very good air filtration. We still need to change our oils about once every 5,000-10,000 miles (more often if we live on a dirt road). So, it is time again to see if we can determine anything about "touchy clutches" and tie it down in any fashion. What is a touchy clutch? A clutch that requires frequent adjustment to hit the sweet spot. One that even in the sweet spot may slip a tiny bit on occasion during hard acceleration (various gears, you pick it for your bike). Poll is limited to folks who have been using the List Recommended Rotella oil products in their Savage for some time and still have the "touchy clutch" syndrome. I got several rabbits to separate here, one rabbit is the 60ppm of moly oil. The second rabbit is "worn out oil" which we know happens to us when we start seeing the older oil sump load start to exit the engine quicker. Last rabbit is old additive contamination from previous incorrect oils that is glazed on the friction plates and has never been removed by the now more knowledgeable list member. The easiest set of rabbits is the 60ppm of moly oil, so let's start there. ONLY TAKE THE POLL IF YOU USE ROTELLA PRODUCTS IN YOUR SAVAGE AND STILL HAVE A TOUCHY CLUTCH. |
|
Title: Re: Touchy clutches Post by WD on 04/28/14 at 08:17:44 Ran T6 for one day, Pine ran it for who knows how long. Switched to regular Rotella, still have a sometimes grabby, sometimes slipping clutch, and a lot of missed shifts. I think Shell pulled a Mobil Red Top 15W50 on us... that used to be THE motorcycle oil, and the Mobil reformulation will wipe out a clutch in a matter of hours now. We've been running regular Rotella 15W40 in the 1500 Drifter, new clutch plates and springs last summer, slipping like mad already. |
|
Title: Re: Touchy clutches Post by Oldfeller on 04/28/14 at 08:35:40 WD, if you have some VOA proof of Shell reformulations, please share it with us. The red cap stuff you are referring to was Mobil1's marketing mess, not Shell's. Also, speculation based on what you did with another brand of motorcycle isn't germane to this topic. Leave your Kawasaki and its issues out in the driveway, please. We know you hate synthetic oil in general and took the T6 out of Pine's old bike the day after you got it, that isn't news to anybody. It is not unusual to have to re-adjust a clutch several times when changing from synthetic oil to dino (or back again). ===================== Folks who use synthetic T6 are currently reporting "touchy" at 3 to 1 compared to dino Rotella. Now that seems to be a factual sort of thing. (Note: the ratio went to 2 to 3 later on, so its significance dropped a lot) (unless 3 times more people use T6 compared to dino, that is) This topic is a dispassionate attempt to see if we can part the muddy waters on "touchy clutches", not to go see if we can muddy it up even more. |
|
Title: Re: Touchy clutches Post by verslagen1 on 04/28/14 at 08:36:57 The savage clutch can be touchy and I do think it's an adjustment problem due to geometry. To get max throw, the cam has to be nearly bottomed out against the case when released. Select the right rod so that it sticks out of the clutch by 12 to 12.5 mm's. 13 is too long and will permanently throw out the clutch when you put on the case. I really don't like the grind job on the ends of the rod... a full radius is best for the cam end, this matches up with the cam best. I'm not sure what the other end looks like so I generally leave the other end alone. So don't just throw things together and hope they work. |
|
Title: Re: Touchy clutches Post by Oldfeller on 04/28/14 at 08:42:36 Verslagen, Another thing that seems to keep being mentioned is that the clutch seems to slip only during warm up, but quits when the engine is fully warmed up. Two things might play on this item, first the oil viscosity does change during warm up. Second is that the stackup height of the clutch pack changes as it gets to operating temperature -- when it is cold this plays against the last set of adjustments you made with a fully warmed up engine. Thoughts? ============== One thing I have tried to do to stop the rapid wear of the clutch rod at the eccentric was to drop a single ball bearing into the hole where the rod goes, such that the ball bearing presented a single rotating point to the flat end of the custom clutch rod. Now my rod sits still relative to the eccentric and spins on the ball bearing contact point, where it quickly makes a little cup impression to match the ball bearing radius. The clutch rod also gets some smoothing on the sides where it rubs against the bushing that it sits in. It was "technically" a successful trick I guess, but since I went to an M2 round lathe bit for my extra length rod material I don't bother with the ball bearing trick any more. You do bring up the chrome lever position relative to the marks on the case, and I hope everyone has their lever between their marks and isn't misfiring information based on rod length issues ..... |
|
Title: Re: Touchy clutches Post by verslagen1 on 04/28/14 at 09:10:15 WOT KINDA NUT EXPECTS ANYTHING BUT WONKYNESS WHEN COLD!? yeah... that's what I'm thinking. and cold? what's that? mine is 40° minimum, but in the garage is quite a bit warmer than that. so, I start her up, put on my helmet and go. I don't wind her up and do a burn out, she's at high idle and I ease the clutch in, she might break 2k and I slip her into 2nd and then 3rd. 2 to 4 blocks later if I needed any choke (1st notch) it's pushed in. This is all residential so I'm just putting along trying to avoid fuzznuts. By the time I hit the superslab, she's warm, adjustment is perfect, and there's a big happy grin upon me face. |
|
Title: Re: Touchy clutches Post by verslagen1 on 04/28/14 at 09:34:13 75565E5C5F56565F483A0 wrote:
The shop had some Ų1/4" die pins laying around so I picked up a few. They're harder than drill rod and perfect for the clutch rod. I'll have to pick up some more. :-/ need a smiley shifty eyed bugger. The throw out does have a bearing, but I usually find a burr on that end. Quote:
sure, and someone usually asks what part of the lever should be between the marks and how much force, yada yada yada... please read your thread on the subject. If you go inside, then measure the rod, 12 is ok, 12.5 is perfect, no longer. The lever is near the bottom. The Kevlar clutch went in about a year ago, along with the verslavy, haven't touch it since. |
|
Title: Re: Touchy clutches Post by old_rider on 04/28/14 at 10:11:05 After putting Rotella in the boxes.... I have adj. each bike twice... and never after that, both are doing just fine. |
|
Title: Re: Touchy clutches Post by Oldfeller on 04/28/14 at 10:14:20 The ball bearing that is inside the throw out assembly (the bushing is pressed into the ID of that bearing) needs to be completely free moving. Since it is an open cage ball bearing assembly, swarf or trash can easily get in there to jam it up some. I know this was the case when I used drill rod for clutch rods, it wore and deformed and broke off swarf rings of mashed over steel -- which totalled me one ball bearing assembly. I feel that when the clutch lever isn't being compressed, the ball bearing assembly has more friction in it than the round end of the rod and the eccentric cup on the lever -- I think the rod whirls in place some all the time. I haven't had any issues since going to M2 steel rod, but any good full hardened rod stock should be able to work. that is until something gets friction heated and it gives up its hardness, say at the eccentric cup .... I have tried to use dowel pins, but had the same heat'em up eat'em up issue with the heat treated high carbon steel softening from friction heat. The M2 bit stock polishes the eccentric cup and takes no wear from it. |
|
Title: Re: Touchy clutches Post by Oldfeller on 04/28/14 at 10:17:00 686B63756E636275070 wrote:
Which Rotella? |
|
Title: Re: Touchy clutches Post by WD on 04/28/14 at 10:30:36 98 Savage clutch ran Rotella 15W40 for the last 3 years it was operational. Zero clutch issues. The 2003 post T6 has a lot of clutch problems. Referenced the Kawi to show it isn't just Savages having Rotella issues. Barnett Kevlar Mean Streak clutch discs, Mean Streak main spring which eliminates the factory slipper clutch mechanism. And the clutch still has moments where it slips under normal highway riding. Shell has to have changed something in the blend, Rotella used to be a zero problems oil. My guess, and that is all it is, a guess, is the newer extended life additive package. Same thing Mobil did to us when they messed with Red Top and didn't say anything about a new formulation... Moot point, next change it gets HD30 in the 1988 and older blend... |
|
Title: Re: Touchy clutches Post by verslagen1 on 04/28/14 at 10:43:31 I'll have to take a better look at the throw out cup. usually the rod will come out with a burr telling me that it contacts an outer edge. After removing the burr and rounding the corner, I don't recall seeing it again (not sure if it's been opened again). but putting full R's on both ends does sink the rod in further. and last time I had to make a rod to get it to stick out 12.5 or so. Knowing that it would shorten some, the next rod I only took the burr off and only radiused the edge slightly. |
|
Title: Re: Touchy clutches Post by Oldfeller on 04/28/14 at 11:24:43 WD, Mobile1 is the one that changes their formulation without telling anybody. Rotella changed both the name and the label from Rotella T Synthetic to Rotella T6 Synthetic New and Improved and advertised the specific changes to the oil. Dino Rotella hasn't changed except to take out some sulphur ash so it could pass the original JASO requirements, but that was done way back at CI to CJ change time. It would be helpful if folks would say which Rotella they are talking about .... |
|
Title: Re: Touchy clutches Post by Oldfeller on 04/29/14 at 03:24:23 Well, Touchy Clutches. 5 total situations, just about evenly split between the two Rotellas. Nothing conclusive to be drawn from the five people reporting, on which 2 of the topic posters won't even say which Rotella they are using. I'd have to agree with Verslagen that there isn't a discernible issue with the recommended oils. The Savage clutch needs to be adjusted when it is warmed up good and when the engine is running and the bike is rolling until the engagement point is in the middle of the hand lever motion range. Ignore the clutch when it is cold (it will slip a little bit when twisted hard until it gets warmed up properly). Adjusting the clutch when it is cold is a butterfly chase, so don't do that to yourself. |
|
Title: Re: Touchy clutches Post by old_rider on 04/29/14 at 05:49:22 I used the poll to put in dino.... never thought to put it in the post |
|
Title: Re: Touchy clutches Post by Gerry on 04/29/14 at 11:46:46 I didn't participate in the poll, not experienced enough. But the little riding I have done the gear change up and down does clunk a bit, I think I need to adjust the cable more. I have had bikes with hydraulic clutch's in them for so long I have forgotten how to adjust a cable actuated clutch ::) BTW I'm using Rotella T HD Diesel Engine oil 15W40. I think that is one of the recommended oils, have to go back to the tech section and review. Sorry, carry on Gerry |
|
Title: Re: Touchy clutches Post by verslagen1 on 04/29/14 at 14:16:34 61424A484B42424B5C2E0 wrote:
Uh... wot? :-? 1/8" to 1/4" gap between lever and perch. check lock to lock. |
|
Title: Re: Touchy clutches Post by Oldfeller on 04/29/14 at 14:35:13 No static check is going to take the place of adjusting the whole engagement zone to be in the center of the clutch hand lever travel. You can get them close with a static check, but a warm, engine running, bike rolling check -- that will give you the best real "engagement zone in the middle" tuning job. With the bike rolling in gear under mild acceleration in gear (clutch out) you can judge the disengage free motion by gently taking up the slack in the lever until slipping starts. With the bike rolling in gear with very mild throttle with the clutch in all the way you can judge the engage free motion when you slowly let the clutch out as the engine will slow down and change tone as soon as you hit the engagement zone. Roughly speaking, the completely free motions should be equal on both sides of the engagement zone. 1/4 free, 1/3 engagement zone, 1/4 free. A lot of these guys "touchy clutch issue" is that a cold clutch moves the engagement zone around some until it is warmed up again. They need to learn not to sweat what a cold clutch does as it is only a very temporary state of affairs. And you shouldn't be romping hard on a cold engine anyway, it's not good for the hardware. |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |