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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Knocking LS650 /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1393177080 Message started by HBTim on 02/23/14 at 09:38:00 |
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Title: Knocking LS650 Post by HBTim on 02/23/14 at 09:38:00 Purchased non running 1998 LS650, Cleaned carb... Runs. However... Had a knocking/Tapping sound. Read the topics, Verslagen tensioner was the first thing. Inspected the tentioner and yes, almost fell out. So, no matter what I'm getting that knocked out. I live about 45 min from THE GUY!! Super cool guy, did the mod quick and the work is nothing short of perfection. Fits perfect. All back together. Last night I started it up. Now just the knocking. Loud too. I have read a few threads and seems it could be a variety of things. My guess. The decomp not adjusted properly and/or valve clearance and/or Valve adjustment. If anyone has seen the LS650 youtube vid that say Sammy www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECcvy_rV5K4 here it is. It sounds just like this. noise is in sync with the rev of the bike. Throttle up, sound gets faster. So, Where should I start checking? Some suggested in other threads it is Valve Clearance, Decomp adjust, bearings gone, the " I will take it off your hands" guy, (by the way, I'm close... haha), the gasket is not thick enough (it does look like someone has been in there before because I see some black rubber seal gasket from around the spark plug area that has pushed out a bit). I did try to remove the head cover and did remove all the nuts to pop open the valve cover to see if I could be removed with out having to take the engine out, I got scared of going to far and tightened it back down. Maybe I over tightened?? I also removed THAT bolt that one thread here tells you NOT to when removing that valve/top head cover. Good lord, what a Noob I am. Are there quick inspection techniques to rule stuff out? Noob here so I really thank you. I tried to read and watch as many vids as possible before asking and I think, I can take pics and videos of what the hell I'm deal ing with if needed. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by Serowbot on 02/23/14 at 09:45:58 I'd try adjusting the valves first... it's pretty easy to do... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1325991352 |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by HBTim on 02/23/14 at 09:49:23 Ok, I will Do that. Thanks for the link. Get my feeler and move forward with it. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by S-P on 02/24/14 at 16:44:23 From the video it sounds like an "upper" noise. You can do the poor man's stethoscope (two foot broom handle, piece of metal rod, big screw driver") and put one end on the motor and the other on your ear. You'll be able to listen to different parts of the motor and isolate the sound a little better. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/24/14 at 19:16:17 If someone put the head cover on & used some too thick goo & didnt get the cam/head cover distance right, the cam may be sitting too loose. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by HBTim on 02/27/14 at 12:32:46 Is there a gasket for the top end instead of using the goop? part #? I will also try the broom stick trick... Thanks. I will be on this bike probably Tuesday of next week. I will keep ya'll posted. Thanks a ton. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by Serowbot on 02/27/14 at 13:07:21 The valve covers have 0-ring seals (reusable)... That's all you remove for a valve adjust... The head cover has no gasket, just RTV sealant... use very,.. very little...(it's easy to plug up an oil passage using too much)... Thin like you're sealing a letter,.. not making a peanut-butter sandwich... (and I don't mean a wax stamp kinda' letter seal ;D...)... Basically,.. if you see any ooze out when you tighten,.. an equal amount oozed inward... that's not good... ;)... |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by Dave on 02/27/14 at 13:44:34 NOT this! |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by savagerider87 on 02/28/14 at 16:17:07 Sounds like badly worn rocker arms... Had the same noise with mine( the ends that ride on the cam) they tend to gouge out the rocker arms, the cam Is steel of course, but the arms are aluminum, they run around $60 each from ma Suzuki, this may or may not be due to a lack of oil or misadjusted valves but just a suggestion from experience..., hope this helps!! |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by HBTim on 06/10/15 at 15:07:19 Ok, I know I'm bumping a very very old post, but FINALLY had the time to pull the engine and take a look and the arms and camshaft. I had the verse cam chain mod done and I went through the valve adjustments that were on the tech posts and still had the same noise. So here you go... I think we got the answer. http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w417/timmanzano/IMG_2110_zpsll68txv1.jpg http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w417/timmanzano/IMG_2104_zpsuvn0xsau.jpg check out the cam lopes... they look lop-sided. http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w417/timmanzano/IMG_2105_zpsvpwqq3sd.jpg Also, the idiot that did this job before put too much RTV on it. It actually built up and was over a lot of the internals. A glob of it sat right on the valve springs. just a mess. So, what do I do now. Is this as easy as just getting a new camshaft and rocker arms?? New engine?? How difficult is this going to be to get done? Any help... I will thank you in advance. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/10/15 at 17:21:02 IIRC, Versy can get the rockers welded up and refaced and what a wonderful time to put a stage one or whatever cam in. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by HBTim on 06/10/15 at 17:38:20 oh sweet... did not even think of that. Versalagen is like half hour from where I live too.... I got the cam chain tensioner mod done from him. Should take him my head too. The journals are built up or worn out... don't know which. should I get a new head here? I think some oil starvation on the middle journal from the "too thick" silicone job clogged some oil passages. Check these out... http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w417/timmanzano/IMG_2111_zpsvcd883vp.jpg http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w417/timmanzano/IMG_2112_zpspr328ktf.jpg http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w417/timmanzano/IMG_2114_zpspazoocdl.jpg http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w417/timmanzano/IMG_2113_zpsi0qtqmr3.jpg http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w417/timmanzano/IMG_2111_zpsvcd883vp.jpg |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/10/15 at 17:43:34 637C7A7D60675666566E7C703B090 wrote:
The head is hurt. Some one did a fix, but I don't remember who or how long it lasted. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by HBTim on 06/10/15 at 17:56:02 I think I'm in new engine territory. I have a chance to pick one up with 7000 miles on it. from an S40 2011. It's the same engine right?? |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by Kris01 on 06/10/15 at 18:33:05 Yep, same. Those pics make me cry. :'( |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/10/15 at 18:44:20 Agree, slap a motor in. The guys here know what will swap. Motor, yes, but the electronic stuff changes. What year, I don't know. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by Kris01 on 06/10/15 at 18:50:15 I found out the hard way that the turn signal plugs changed. Some of your electronics plugs may have to be modified. Maybe swap the harness too? |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by HBTim on 06/10/15 at 18:58:57 darn... ok then. Time to find a motor. the 2011 will not work... too much harness swap and elec swap for me to want to deal with. Thanks everyone. I will update this when I get'r done. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by verslagen1 on 06/10/15 at 20:10:56 You shouldn't have any problems putting an 07 in a 98. Old feller was the one that did the rocker reweld don't think he does it anymore |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/10/15 at 21:07:40 Thanks, but the heads done cooked, so, won't much matter now. How about just a head and everything from there up? |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by HBTim on 06/16/15 at 07:14:42 heading out to some Cycle salvage yards today. I'll let ya'll know if I find something. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by Dave on 06/16/15 at 08:45:25 2A20360B0F620 wrote:
It wouldn't be a tough change.....just take the left engine case and stator wiring off the later bike and put the one from the earlier engine on. The engine will work fine with that change. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by HBTim on 06/16/15 at 10:27:32 5C676A7D6C607B7D666E637C0F0 wrote:
It wouldn't be a tough change.....just take the left engine case and stator wiring off the later bike and put the one from the earlier engine on. The engine will work fine with that change. [/quote] Well, that is easy. Ok, I am going to see if the engine is still available. Thats great man. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by old_rider on 06/16/15 at 15:07:54 Wow..... looks like the previous owner didn't come here to get his information on replacing that oil plug when he pulled the top off. Good thing you did though.... I know rockers can be built up... but not sure about cam recess (block) shims maybe?... I bow to higher authority on experiences with this engine. Hope someone with more experience shows soon. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by Superxin on 06/16/15 at 18:11:30 wow...maybe it's over. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by HBTim on 07/15/15 at 09:32:52 ok, gots me an engine. It had 19200 miles on it. Picked up at a junk yard. So, Now comes the task of swapping stuff. I will be using the new engine and using the old engine as a parts engine. The first thing I need to do is swap the stator. Any thing I need to know about this swap. Is it straight forward? Also, I see a starter gear I will need to swap. no biggie here, that I see. Also, got the Carb in the deal. So have an extra Carb... Nice. So, back to my first question, Do I just swap the Cover with the stator on it? Should be doing this swap next Tuesday. I will swap my Versy tensioner over as well, inspect the cam chain as well. Man, this bike has taken forever!! http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w417/timmanzano/Mobile%20Uploads/20150715_090409_zpsb0s6i9qp.jpg Here is the old engine with the cover off... http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w417/timmanzano/Mobile%20Uploads/20150715_090437_zpsoaebtl83.jpg Said part to swap... http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w417/timmanzano/Mobile%20Uploads/20150715_090453_zpsahht3wtu.jpg FREE CARB!!! HAHAHAH. ;D http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w417/timmanzano/Mobile%20Uploads/20150715_090612_zpsbnz1hgeb.jpg |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by verslagen1 on 07/15/15 at 09:49:42 We may have said stator, but we meant rotor. That has to swap because of the timing indicator is specific to the cdi you have. You want to keep the newer stator and cover along with the starter torque limiter. That'll keep you from busting out your starter bosses or breaking teeth. Another key issue is it takes a special tool to pull the rotor. There's one floating around here somewhere. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by Dave on 07/15/15 at 10:12:19 Yeah....the forum bought a Puller to rent to members, and ultimately to create a "tool club" that you can buy a membership to. I currently have the puller in KY. The puller will require a $ 100 deposit for the tool and to pay postage. Once returned in good condition the deposit minus the rental fee will be refunded. Rental fee is $ 5 and covers 30 days of use. When the "Tool Club" is officially organized it will include a $ 10 fee for lifetime use of the "Forum Tools". Let me know if you want the puller sent to you and I can send you the PayPal address for payment and mailing information. Or....you can drag your engine to a Dealership and have them pull the rotor for you. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by Dave on 07/15/15 at 10:15:42 It appears you bought an early 4 speed engine...is that what you wanted? Do you know what year the replacement engine is? Look a the rotors and see if they are the same....maybe you don' need to change it. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by HBTim on 07/15/15 at 11:39:59 Oh dang... I'm not home but rotors look different... and YES Dave... NEEWB here, I meant rotor... lol Anyway, engine came of a 95 I believe and mine is a 98. I think. I will find out when I get home and get back to ya'll. The question would then be... easier to swap top end? It would not appear to though. urg!! :( |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by verslagen1 on 07/15/15 at 12:05:34 '95 is still a 5 spd, but not sure if it had the starter torque limiter or not. What are the engine numbers? A '95 might have the same rotor so you wouldn't need to swap them. 101A0C3135580 wrote:
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by HBTim on 07/15/15 at 14:19:31 engine motor number is : P401112153 |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by verslagen1 on 07/15/15 at 14:53:58 040E1825214C0 wrote:
That's probably an '86 I thought those cut outs in the fin supports looked odd. 8-) Yup you'll want to swap the rotor if you use that engine. Swapping the heads would be ok if the bottom end is still good. There's a lot we don't know about '86's which is the 1st year of production, we haven't seen a whole lot of them. I'd check every part number between the 2 years you plan on swapping for revisions. The format is xxxxx-24B00 and a revision to that will be xxxxx-24B01 24B means it's designed for our bike |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by HBTim on 07/15/15 at 15:23:27 geez... Ok, with what I got, would I be better off swapping the rotor and making sure the parts match up? I'm going to re look at the engine motor number, but I think your right about it being an 86 or similar year. darn. do I have an issue here? |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by verslagen1 on 07/15/15 at 15:32:27 4B41576A6E030 wrote:
I don't think so. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by HBTim on 07/15/15 at 18:25:03 Ok, Rotor puller on its way... next stop, Swap. I'm sure I will be asking some questions... Thanks Vers and Dave. I will post some pics on the progress and let Ya'll know what's up as I go. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/15/15 at 19:03:55 Don't ditch the old motor. Keep everything till you get twenty thousand miles on it. The bottom end of this engine might not be great. No idea how long it's been since the bearings got spun or rings oiled. Crap builds up down where the plug is, blow out before pulling the plug, oil inside the cylinder, turn it over manually, slowly, feel of it. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by Dave on 07/16/15 at 06:30:11 When a motor is torn apart for an overhaul and put back together...the mechanic will oil the moving engine parts so they are lubricated when the engine first starts......as it takes a few seconds for the oil pump to get the oil pumping through the new oil filter and circulation system, crank, bearings, up to the cam and rockers, and for the crankshaft to start throwing oil onto the piston and cylinder. Unfortunately this engine has been sitting for a while and most likely the piston/cylinder and camshaft/rockers are no longer covered in oil. I believe you should buy a spray can of Fogging Oil to spray into the cylinder to lubricate it when the engine is first started....you spray it through the spark plug hole. Also the cam/rockers should be lubricated by removing the exhaust valve adjustment cap and squirting oil onto the cam and rockers. There is a small oil reservoir that holds oil and the cam lobes dip into that oil at start up and it lubricates the lobes.....you should try and get oil into that reservoir before you start the engine. http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3611429&bingpla=bingpla_6065531 |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by HBTim on 07/16/15 at 10:41:06 Ok, will do. Before I get to a start up I will have it lubed up per these instructions. I will also do a manual turn over and over and make sure everything feels good. Man, you guys are awesome, Thank you for all the heads up here. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/16/15 at 11:18:16 We've seen needless loss and destruction. I spent over an hour fishing chunks out of the cylinder because I pulled the plug without thinking. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by HBTim on 09/09/15 at 17:19:49 Ok, have a few days off in row here... Pulled the rotor off the old engine and now working on the new engine. Removing that nut is a mutha... So to recap and make sure I'm doing this right... I am swapping the rotors and using the old engine cover with the stator on it. Also swapping the starter gears so I do not break teeth on the bosses. using loc tight for the nut that holds the rotor on... Anything else? am I missing anything. I know I will do a full oil soaking and/or fogging of the engine and hand turn it multiple times before I attempt to start. Just going threw everything in my mind before I do something stupid... Thanks everyone for your help with this... |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/09/15 at 21:27:09 Just going threw everything in my mind before I do something stupid... Yeah, I've always found it best to go over it in my head before I do something stupid. I always feel better about it, knowing I planned it all along. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by HBTim on 09/10/15 at 09:02:00 now THATS funny. ;D |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by HBTim on 09/10/15 at 12:04:16 rotor, stator and cover along with the starter torque limiter swapped. Bottom end gaskets going on soon... BUT before I do... Did I forget anything? Should I check something before I slap it all back together? I am going to swap the Versy tensioner on the other side so I have a little time before I screw it all down again. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by HBTim on 09/10/15 at 12:08:26 73484552434F545249414C53200 wrote:
Will do on all this DAVE, I will be lubing everything down before I attempt to start. Just wanted you to know I remembered your post. ;) |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/10/15 at 13:30:10 Id leave the plug out and let the starter spin it over a few seconds, cool starter, spin over again,, let the pump get oil up in it before the loads of running hit it. Might wanna keep an eye on the battery,, |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by HBTim on 09/10/15 at 16:03:30 oh man, good call. Thats a great idea... I will be sure to turn it without the plug a few times over before trying to start. thanks. Got it all back together. Will be putting it back in the bike tomorrow. Will give ya'll up date and maybe try to vid it. This has been a crazy on going saga for me and this bike. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/10/15 at 17:30:08 I'm glad to offer something useful.. so many of these guys are so smart and so well versed I just stick stars on the scoreboard and keep reading. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by HBTim on 04/08/18 at 14:59:04 I know... Major resurrection of an old post... But, I still have the LS650 and a few years back bought a used engine. Finally got around to putting it back together. So... I have it all together and gave it a battery and cranked it. I did turn it without the spark plug hooked up a bunch of times to get the new oil to run through it first. It turns with no funny noises but will not start. However, I did get it to turn over and run for just a second with starting fluid. A little back story here. I did rebuild the carbs almost a year ago. I put it on the bike and it has sat that way for several months. Thought I would give it a shot today and here is where I am now. Good news, I think, is that I have isolated my problem to the fuel. Because it did start with starting fluid sprayed in the carb, should I pull the carbs and re-clean them up? Could I have another issue besides a fuel problem since it turned over on a spray of starting fluid? Sorry for brining it up in the same post but thought it would be fun since it is the same million year project. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/08/18 at 17:10:39 How old is the gas? Did you put the Petcock on Prime? If the carburetor was clean and empty, no gas evaporated to scuz up its guts. A hot battery is crucial. |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by HBTim on 04/08/18 at 17:48:49 I emptied the gas tank when i knew i was going to replace the engine, so gas is brand new. Yes, no gas was run through the carb since rebuild. Battery is low and not cranking very well. So, I charged it a bit and tried again. It is still not all the way charged but when I tried after a little charge the engine turns and will slightly sputter every second or third crank. Seems to want to start but won't. So, I think the hot battery may be my issue? I will let it get a good charge over night and try again tomorow. Oh, petcock was on run. So, I will need to have that on prime. As a side not it does the sputtering when I have the choke on. Thanks man. Will the battery make a big difference? |
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Title: Re: Knocking LS650 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/08/18 at 19:48:37 Will the battery make a big difference? Yep. The ignition system requires a hot battery or it won't make a spark. Don't run the starter more than a few seconds at a time. Too much work heats magnets,, cracks them. Let the Petcock prime the carburetor I like bumping something off on ether. |
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