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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> The Cafe >> Long Term Fuel Storage Test /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1382699778 Message started by Dave on 10/25/13 at 04:16:18 |
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Title: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Dave on 10/25/13 at 04:16:18 When the ethanol fuel came on the market, people started to experience problems that had never occurrred previously. My uncle had a couple of muscle cars that needed new accelerator pump diaphragms every spring after storage, and as forum member ZAR can probably tell you the fuel pump diaphragms in Briggs and Stratton engines were becoming soft and deformed - while the normal failure mode used to be the diaphagms would get holes in them or dry out and get stiff. I have several pieces of equipment that had fuel hoses that dissolved and became like sticky taffy. My neighbors started bringing their yard equipment over to me far more than they used to......as they could not get them started in the spring. My own experience has been that equipment that is stored in an insulated and heated garage or basement stores much better than equipment that is stored outdoors, under a carport, or in a barn where the temperature and weather conditions swing wildly. In an effort to satisfy my curiousity, I filled some plastic bottles with different fuels to see what changes I could see in the fuel. I filled each bottle to the same level and set them on a shelf in my garage. I did not take a picture when I bottled them up two year ago.......but this is what the bottles look like after two years of storage. The first bottle on the left is pump gas regular with 10% ethanol, the second bottle is Sunoco 96 octane racing fuel, the third bottle is Avgas 100LL, and the fourth bottle is CountryMark 90+ fuel that has no ethanol. The bottles were all filled to the horizontal molding line in the middle of the bottles where the first and third bottle levels are, and the different heights is evidently the result of the fuel evaporating through the plastic bottle, as the caps are screwed down tight. http://i41.tinypic.com/23mqvkj.jpg About a week ago I decided that I had not learned much from this test, as it only shows what happens if you store the fuel in a tightly sealed fuel container. I was seeding my lawn at the time and I dumped the Avgas, Shell 96 and CountryMark fuels into the seeder fuel tank and they all ran fine. When I went to dump the pump gas w/ethanol into the seeder I noticed that there was something in the bottom of the bottle that was not mixed with the fuel. I am not sure if this is ethanol or water - but it is laying in the bottom of the bottle and does not mix with the fuel. I have not dumped this out yet, and I am going to drop some bare steel in the bottle and see if the metal rusts when in contact. http://i41.tinypic.com/qsl5du.jpg In order to get more useful information, I have decided to repeat the test with some modifications. I have drilled a tiny hole in the cap to simulate the fuel tank and carb vents - this will allow the bottle to better approximate the storage in a real fuel tank and carb. I have also placed a small piece of brass wire, a small piece of aluminum, and a small piece of bare steel in the bottle so I can see how they hold up when immersed in the fuel. I will also be placing these bottles out in my wood shed so they will be out of the weather - but exposed to the changes in outdoor temperature and humidity. The fuels in this test are Avgas 100LL, pump premium w/ethanol, Sunoco 96 racing fuel, CountryMark 90+, pump premium w/ethanol, pump premioum w/ethanol and Startron added. http://i43.tinypic.com/2kklmx.jpg This photo shows the brass wire, steel tubing and aluminum placed in the bottle. http://i43.tinypic.com/2dj29vb.jpg I will give you all an update as the fuel ages. I really don't expect much to happen right away......I expect this to take a while. Funny what some of us "gearheads" will do to entertain ourselves! :o |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by engineer on 10/25/13 at 06:38:31 Great study Dave. It's good that someone is actually experimenting rather than just using anecdotal evidence. Most gas tanks are vented and subject to some "breathing" as you pointed out in the recent post about fuel additives in Rubber Side Down. In addition to your fuel storage in a sealed container experiment I wonder if another set of bottles with some vent holes might help to reflect what happens in a typical gas tank. Small vents would allow more moisture and oxygen to enter the fuel and corrode the metal pieces. Here is a picture of a fuel filter that was in the tank of a Moto Guzzi. The filters and hoses had to be replaced in all the bikes that used this filter in the US with our E10 fuel. As far as I know it was not a problem in countries with E5 or ethanol free fuels. This filter was caught before any leakage started. http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e340/flymymbz/breva%20fuel%20filter/1ea2012b.jpg The ethanol softens and weakens some plastics. In my portable power generator it softened the adhesive used to mount the fuel gauge float assembly which fell off and had to be fished out along with small bits of the adhesive which clogged the carburetor. Something also dissolved much of the body of plastic floats in the carbs of some older lawn equipment I had. At the equipment store where I buy parts they told me that a good percentage of their business is related to ethanol problems. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Dave on 10/25/13 at 06:45:59 Engineer: The new test does have vent holes in the caps - so it will approximate a fuel tank or float bowl. The fuel tank on my Sherco trials bike is made from Nylon. I bought the bike new and the importer stated that premium pump gas was fine to use in them. In about 2 months the fuel tank started to expand like the fuel filter photo you posted......only it grew in all directions and did not look so deformed as the filter. The tank howewer was getting so large it would not fit in the frame rails and was starting to push the rear fender backwards. I took the tank off and emptied it and let it air out for a couple of weeks and it returned to a normal size - and I have been using the CountryMark 90+ ethanol free fuel and it has been 4 years with no additional problems. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Pine on 10/25/13 at 07:21:58 Cool test.. though instead of brass .. I would have put in natural rubber aka gasoline hose. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Serowbot on 10/25/13 at 09:02:08 +1,.. Pine... Maybe just drop a small o-ring in each bottle?... |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Dave on 10/25/13 at 10:55:21 3523342931242932460 wrote:
I have plenty of O-rings....and I will add one to each bottle before I move them to the woodshed this weekend. I didn't use fuel line as all the the fuel line I bought recently is stuff like Tygon or Silicone, and most fuel line formulas have been changed to be ethanol resistant. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Serowbot on 10/25/13 at 11:04:20 ......and, now we wait..... Hmm, hmm hmmm... hmmm,... hmmm... ... for... a year or so... Hmmmm. hmmm... :-?... Are we there yet?... :-?... No... :-/... :-?................ |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Dave on 11/02/13 at 06:23:47 I found a size of O-ring that was a normal fit over the steel tube, so I installed one on each of the tubes in all the test fuel bottles. http://i42.tinypic.com/2dgkh37.jpg Then I put the test bottles in a small box, and moved it out to a remote corner of the wood shed. It has a roof and walls, but no doors on the openings front and back so the air is free to move through the shed and season the wood. This will provide a good test for what happens when equipment is stored in places that are not insulated. http://i42.tinypic.com/w1fbiv.jpg I really don't expect any need for an update for months.......this will take a while I expect. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by old_rider on 11/02/13 at 07:25:51 Where are Marty and the professor when you need them? ;D Dave, we could get a delorian and work on a flux capacitor... or wait. Which would be more fun? |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Rix on 11/02/13 at 09:01:17 Well I can tell you deloreans are NO FUN to work on. OR drive. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Dave on 11/02/13 at 12:14:43 0F0C041209040512600 wrote:
I have a strong belief that ethanol fuel is hard on small equipment that sits idle for long period of time.....or anything that is not used regularly enough to keep the fuel fresh. I have fixed a lot of equipment for my neighbors that I believe was damage caused by ethanol fuel..... just want to see the process first hand. I use the ethanol free CountryMark 90+ fuel in mine and I add StaBil to this fuel. I have used fuel that is 2 years old and stored in 55 gallon steel drums that are sealed up, and I pull about 15 gallons out every month or so to fill my 5 gallon cans, and I have never had any fuel related problems. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by old_rider on 11/02/13 at 19:01:09 Well you are correct in that the ethanol fuel kept outside in your equipment will melt the rubber or plastic in todays lawn mowers and weed eaters. This year I replaced both, the weed eaters primer bulb melted, it disentigrated when went to prime it start. The lawnmower had internal bits and pieces that were rubber based, they melted and gummed up everything. This is the third season for the lawn mower, and only the second one for the weed eater. I left fuel in both of them for about four to five months. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Blinky-FSO on 11/02/13 at 19:45:36 The first sample looks suspiciously like a the urine sample I gave to the lab, which, coincidentally, they say is now missing. Hmmmm. Good hunting |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/03/13 at 06:50:59 The W-650 actuially has an accelerator pump on one carb.. about the size of a quarter, & a bit over 25 dollars,, & it goes away with ethanol |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Dave on 11/09/13 at 07:44:49 The local gas station just got an E85 pump.....so I bought a little bit of it and added it to the test just for kicks. The stuff is clear as water, and it smells nothing like gasoline. The other bottles are showing little change. The level has dropped slightly in a few bottles - but the steel, aluminum, rubber and brass parts don't show any corrosion yet. Not a surprise....it has only been a few weeks. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Serowbot on 11/09/13 at 08:25:17 You had an ant farm when you were a kid, didn't ya' Dave... ... and a chemistry set... ... whilst I was setting model planes and army men on fire with lighter fluid... and eating glue paste... :-/... |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/09/13 at 14:34:24 He certainly looks like the studious type..Hes got the kinda face an artist would use if he needed a model for a bronze. & yes, you can take that as compliment,, |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Oldfeller on 11/09/13 at 15:33:49 I think it is a good experiment, we talk about damage done to stock petcock rubber over time by E90 (10% ethanol) and we theorize what the effects of E85 would be .... now we can find out. Remember, unless it says flex fuel when you open the gas tank flap do not use it in the car -- you will void your factory warranty. ================ Green and Brown Army Men I ran with a gang of guys when I was young, we would carefully stage our equal count of green and brown arm men in opposing trench/combat lines complete with little sprig trees then we'd back off 20 feet and play like we were the inbound artillery. Taking turns taking shots with our BB guns and after an equal amount of shots we would count the still vertical soldiers to see who won that battle. If we had them, we'd stage 1 firecracker every 10 shots (bombs from airplanes of course). Goal there was to get a lot of dirt flying as shrapnel to take out a bunch of the other side's guys. Fine grit (wee little pebbles) worked best as the handful of "bury" each firecracker was allowed before being lighted. Boys played together back then, we stayed out doors until after dark in the summer time. :D Now Serowbot -- tell us the proper technique that you used for them dripping plastic milk carton strips again to simulate the napalm & flame throwers. ;D wizzzip ..... wizzzip ..... wizzzip ..... wizzzip ..... wizzzip ..... |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Serowbot on 11/09/13 at 17:07:44 07242C2E2D24242D3A480 wrote:
...and don't forget the "Mum's hairspray" flamethrower... ;D... |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/09/13 at 17:25:01 I had a CO2 BB pistol when I was 11.. Id siphon gas outta moms car into a small coffee can & sit a cartridge in it & set it up inside a culvert. Flip matches at it till it lit, then we'd all back away as the gas burned down, exposing the top of it to the flames.. After a minute or so, it'd blow up & shoot fire out the culvert & extinguish it all at the same time,, CO2 carts were cheap back then,, That thing would punch a hole in a steel 5 gallon paint can & leave a lump on the other side on a new cartridge,, some jerk broke in & stole it & my jakass step dads 45 revolver,, |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Serowbot on 11/09/13 at 17:49:39 You win... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Oldfeller on 11/09/13 at 18:11:00 Justin, what was the biggest thing you ever blew up with an M80? |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Dave on 11/09/13 at 18:34:59 I go away for a few hours....and look what happens. Y'all derailed my fuel test thread to burned Army men and sploding culverts! Thas OK......there aint going to be much happening with the fuel for a month or two.....might as well kill some time. ::) |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/09/13 at 21:00:03 60434B494A43434A5D2F0 wrote:
I never HAD an M-80! Dangitt! BUT,, I DID sneak off with 3 rolls of primer cord & a coupla hands full blasting caps once,,I knew a guy who explained to me how to hook them up. I went out in the wide opens of West Texas & Blowed some Stuff UP.. I set a 4 inch steel pan ( like off of a roach coach) with about 6 feet of the white cord ( Hot & Fast!) up between the plywood sides of a sign & jammed a stick in to hold it up.. Had about 25 feet of wire, thot thatd be just fine,, I set that stuff off & everything went dead quiet for a split second, like all the air was moving toward that sign,, then BOOOM! & one side of it went over my car & I never did find that pan , & I found a roll of what is called sand line,,its a hard wire about 1/8th diameter that is used to lower a totco tool into an oil well,, ( They have a pendulum & a spring & a clock & you drop them down & the depth is measured by the machine thats dropping it). When the time is up, the clock drops the hammer on the pendulum & it poked a hole on a piece of paper with a tiny target on it,, that way they know how far from straight down the hole is going. Anyway, that wire is so hard that it will sit in a spool even if its not on one,, & its Just the right inside diameter to set a Whole ROLL of det cord in,, I found one & set it on a ledge that was just off the crest of a hill, overlooking a valley & I set that roll in there & set the cal & started running wire. I ran about 50 feet, since it was aimed away. When that one went off it went quiet again,, then a HUGE Boom! & since it was dark all I could see was the flash,, I went the next day to see & that wire was slung in a big V. It musta covered 100 yards & it was waaaay on out there. Im gonna say that roll weighed just shy of 150 pounds & it was hard to see down where it landed, Id say it was no more than a 15 foot drop, but it was probably about 30 or 40 yards away from where it launched from & each leg was just loop after loop, each about 50 yards long.. I kinda expected it to shatter the wire, since its so hard, I figured it would break from the impact of the last,,I did a coupla other things, but we wont go there,, |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/09/13 at 21:01:31 48737E6978746F69727A77681B0 wrote:
At least your science project isnt doomed to fail,, Youre not trying a Long Term Beer or Money storage thing,,You know those wouldnt pan out,,drink it or spend,, |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Oldfeller on 11/10/13 at 00:17:44 Hey it is a long term project, so you got lots of time. Then when you have some results you can trim all this trash away and re-post it in Tech Section. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Dave on 11/10/13 at 05:12:19 6076617C64717C67130 wrote:
No ant farm or chemistry set, but I did live in a rural farm area and had to entertain myself a lot. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/10/13 at 05:19:06 When I would tire of a model car or plane it would get BB holes in it, then a paper towel & lighter fluid would make a melted plastic puddle of it. After it cooled a while the asphalt it was melted to could be lifted up.. Violas! Instant pothole! Ahh who cared? No one lived on that "cul de sac" anyway,, heck, I had the only house for 5 blocks for 2 years, then some jerk moved in about a block away,, his dogs made passing that house so scary Id sometimes ride around one of the other ways, putting me out a long way,, but it beat having to try to race dogs,, |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Oldfeller on 11/10/13 at 08:14:44 I never hid from them bad dogs, I had a pump action Daisy repeater and could skitter 20 BBs their way from the hip as fast as I could pump the sucker. Even a bad dog learns to run when he sees you coming. We used to toss a beer can up hill and I'd keep it from rolling down to us for a short while. (the trick stopped working when the cans became aluminum, the BBs would sail right on through and not even make the can twitch) I'd take the sights off of it and practice "instinctive point shooting" at mobile targets. With the sights on I'd shoot at a dragon fly until he paused too long in mid air and I'd get me a wing ..... I bet I shot more growing up as a little kid than ever have as an adult. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/10/13 at 08:48:17 The leatherwing bats would swar over the road at dusk, eating the mosquitos that also swarmed there. Id put a 1/8th oz. split shot on my trusty Zebco 202 & fling that weight up amongst the skeeters & a bat would swoop in & grab it. Hafta really be "on the stick" to time yanking it before he spit it out, but, when the timing was right, the bat would spin & flip.. OHH the fun! |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Serowbot on 11/10/13 at 10:49:09 That's vampire abuse... 8-)... |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Oldfeller on 11/10/13 at 21:24:16 <POST REMOVED BY HOMELAND SECURITY PETA POLICE> |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Oldfeller on 11/10/13 at 21:29:18 oh my goodness -- the PETA police are watching the site now. For her, I'd even behave .... http://regmedia.co.uk/2009/12/03/joanna_krupa_peta.jpg |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Dave on 12/16/13 at 04:36:25 I looked at the test samples yesterday. All looked normal except for the Premium sample. It has a phase seperation and some kind of liquid is settling out in the bottom of jug.....I imagine it is the ethanol coming out of suspension in the gasoline. None of the metal pieces or the rubber O-Ring show any corrosion or damage yet. I tried to get a photo....but it was out of focus and didn't show anything....I will try again. I checked it last week and didn't notice anything.....so it takes about 50 days for the ethanol to begin to seperate when stored in an unheated building similart to a carport. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/16/13 at 07:13:15 Thanks for the update. Of course, scrollin down past that angel is never a bother. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Serowbot on 12/16/13 at 08:20:21 Hey,.. that's my cross... and I want it back, right this minute!... Premium is breakin' down huh?... How 'bout dat'... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by ToesNose on 12/16/13 at 08:46:29 Thanks for the update Dave, and for the long term test itself ;) |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by verslagen1 on 12/16/13 at 08:58:50 rubber will be difficult to tell w/out taking it out. some expand, some get softer. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Dave on 12/18/13 at 03:44:52 This is the best photo I can get with my crappy camera. It is the Premium fuel that now has a small amount of phase seperation....or some yelllow liquid has sunk to the bottom of the bottle. I might try and get a better picture with my cell phone. http://i41.tinypic.com/2le1kqa.jpg And just so you all don't lose interest in this thread.....here is something a bit more exciting to look at that also is fuel related. http://i42.tinypic.com/xeordg.jpg |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by MMRanch on 12/18/13 at 08:22:24 Ya'll ar making my eyes hurt ! Dang !!! and Scrolling down use to be so easy !!! ;D |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Serowbot on 12/18/13 at 08:43:44 Let's keep it motorcycle related... :-?... http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/serowbot/fuelup.jpg |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Dave on 02/23/14 at 17:19:56 Well.....it has been right at 4 months since I stated this test and there has been enough activity to justify an update. We have had some wet weather, dry weather, some really cold temperatures down around -10, and some warm days up in the 60's. Today I went out and brought the box of bottles into the garage and took a look. http://i59.tinypic.com/f1ejpw.jpg The two noticeable problems were in the Premium pump fuel and the Regular Pump Fuel that I added Startron to. The Premium Pump gas has continued to seperate, and the steel piece has started to rust, and the aluminum and the brass look fine. This was the first fuel to show the onset of seperation......so maybe the theory that Premium sits in the tanks longer has some truth to it. http://i58.tinypic.com/13z1po3.jpg http://i60.tinypic.com/330gx6v.jpg The Regular pump fuel with Statron has also had some seperation and the steel is rusting, the aluminum has started to grow an orange/clear gel...but the brass looks fine. http://i58.tinypic.com/30wo5fl.jpg The pump regular bottle I had appeared not to be regular as it was green colored.....so I must have confused it with either some 2 stroke mix or some with preservative - so I dumped it and started a new regular test on December 17th, and so far it has not done anything weird. So the results indicate to me - that if you store your motorycle or yard equipment in a carport or shed that can experience the Northern Kentukucky temperature and humidity swings......in less than one winter of storage you can begin to have fuel issues that can result in steel rusting and aluminum corroding. I will continue the test for a while longer.....maybe let it go a full year! |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Serowbot on 02/23/14 at 21:34:00 Yeah,.. keep it going... I think you're making a rainbow... :-?... Amazing,... the colors... I don't know what it means,... but I wasn't expecting such a visual change... Please continue., (at this point I wouldn't use any of the samples).. so,... keep it going... Let's see the ultimate whatwhat... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by ToesNose on 02/24/14 at 04:36:51 Yea Dave as long as it's not an inconvenience, it would be great to see a truly long term finish to this test :) Truly great info so far, thanks again! |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Dave on 02/24/14 at 05:00:01 The different colors are caused by: E85 is clear like water. The Avgas 100LL is light blue. The Sunoco racing fuel is green. The Countrymark 90+ ethanol free is amber. The Pump fuels have a yellow tint. I had tried this test a couple years ago and the samples were in my heated and insulated garage, and withouth the temperature and humidity changes the fuels were much more stable.....and lasted more than a year without changes....although eventually the pump gas did have a phase seperation. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/24/14 at 11:12:12 & dont forget, our gas tanks are vented,, IDK if you drilled a tiny hole in the caps or not,, Good lookin experiment,, thank you for doing it, |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by old_rider on 02/24/14 at 13:01:30 Dave were those pump gas with ethanol? and your stabilizer? |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Dave on 02/24/14 at 13:25:23 67787E7964635262526A78743F0D0 wrote:
I drilled 1/16" holes in the caps, and was careful to store the bottles deep in the woodshed where they would not be subject to any rain or snow blowing directly in on the bottles. They were however subject to the temperature and humidity swings. The premium pump fuel had no stabilizer added, and one of the regular pump fuels had Startron added....and it still did a phase seperation and rusted the steel and is working on the aluminum. The regular pump fuel that I got December 17th has not yet shown any issues. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/24/14 at 13:38:51 Cool, mang,, thanks for doin this |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by old_rider on 02/25/14 at 08:48:48 5D666B7C6D617A7C676F627D0E0 wrote:
The premium pump fuel had not stabilizer added, and one of the regular pump fuels had Startron added....and it still did a phase seperation and rusted the steel and is working on the aluminum. The regular pump fuel that I got December 17th has not yet shown any issues.[/quote] So what is Startron? a stabilizer for winter storage? And does your pump fuels have ethanol? Just trying to figure if I have to use a stabilizer at all now :) |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Dave on 02/25/14 at 09:19:31 Startron is an enzyme treatment that is supposed to be the right fuel treatment to correct ethanol related problems. It is sold at most auto, motorcycle and hardware stores. I used it instead of Sta-Bil in the test as it specifically claims it is for ethanol fuels. http://mystarbrite.com/startron/ Yes, all the pump fuels in this area have 10% ethanol. I have to drive about an hour away to Liberty, Indiana if I want to buy fuels without ethanol. I have heard that one of the local marinas may have gasoline without ethanol - but I have not been able to verify that or buy any. I do buy ethanol free fuel in 55 gallon drums to use in my lawn equipment, and I use about one drum a year and I do add Stabil. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by old_rider on 02/25/14 at 11:43:50 So its beginning to look like the fuel additive separated the water from the gas and it settled into the bottom rusting and corroding the metal? I think I might do a test here, so I can judge how long to keep my hurricane gas without worrying if its breaking down. I have some Stabil, so I could use it. I also have some seafoam. Going to start saving a few plastic water bottles. I'm not really concerned about navgas or aircraft grade, i'll go to the pumps that have 3 separate grades with 3 separate hoses, there is one up the road about 2 miles. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Dave on 02/25/14 at 12:31:06 old_rider: If you keep your hurricane gas in sealed metal containers and add StaBil and store them out of wild temperature swings - the fuel will probably keep 12 months without problems. The decay happens much faster when oxygen and humidity can enter the containers. When I am done using the generator I drain all the fuel out and run the engine again and run it until the carb is dry. I don't want any old sludged up fuel in it......just add new gas when I need it and it starts right up. Sometimes I will keep a quart or two of Avgas in the tank with the fuel valve on the tank closed....so when I need it I just open the valve and I can get things going while I hunt up the gas cans. Last time I needed the generator it was 10 degrees below zero.....so the time you save helps keep Momma warm! |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by old_rider on 02/25/14 at 12:41:41 I keep it in approved 5 gallon containers in my 8 x 10 shed out back of the house. Hotter than heck in the summer and cold as it gets is freezing a few weeks during the winter. Humidity is awful down here and rarely gets below 70% except for in the spring and fall, any other time its 85% or above. That's why the test for me... we have different climates, so why not do one here? I've got a few roller bearings, some aluminum pieces, some brass nuts and can get a few rubber o'rings. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Dave on 02/25/14 at 12:44:54 5D5E56405B565740320 wrote:
Metal Containers with sealed lids.....no plastic containers. Plastic allows the fuel and oxygen to permeate through the plastic. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by old_rider on 02/25/14 at 12:46:19 Looks like I will slowly have to replace my five containers for the hurricane supply this summer. :) Wow, just did a home depot search for a metal 5 gal. $63 !!! holy moly !! :o :o :o Lowe's $42.98 !! :o :o :o Harbor Freight $39.99.... oh my... guess one at a time eh? |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/25/14 at 13:13:21 FIFTY FIVE Gallons O Gas a YEAR in "lawn equipment"?? Dude,, Thats Krazeee! We mow maybe 5 or 6 times / summer.. on a wet year, when it grows fast,, coupla years ago, it hardly rained, we mowed 3 times,,Out in the country, no Homeowners Assholeciation,,Our neighbors wear mowers out,,ours is 7,, & not acting too close to worn out, but, time for blades & a belt this spriing, |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 02/25/14 at 13:41:44 Avgas 100LL will last for a really long time. A couple of years ago, a derelict airplane at my airport was finally sold. It had sat in its hangar for about 10 years. A couple of guys showed up and worked on it for about a week to get it to the place that the FAA would issue what is called a "ferry permit" which allows it to have one flight, only, to a maintenance facility where it can be thoroughly maintained and returned to airworthy status. These two guys took off with 10 year old Avgas in the tanks - too cheap to de-fuel and buy new gas. Avgas does still have lead in it - that's why it's so costly, about $6 a gallon. The stuff has to be hauled in dedicated tanker trucks, and in dedicated river barges, since you can't use the same truck or barge to haul normal auto fuel without a horribly expensive cleaning regimen. I put Avgas in my bike every winter, and in the spring, it starts right up. I run the bike a few minutes after I put in the Avgas to get it down into the fuel lines and the carb. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Dave on 02/25/14 at 13:42:31 7E6167607D7A4B7B4B73616D26140 wrote:
Yep....when May/April arrives we can be mowing every 5 days! If you let it grow any longer it gets so thick that you get big thick clumps coming out of the mower and it makes a horrible mess. I mow about 4 acres of grass around my house, the pond and our old house that we rent out.....and it is crazy! When June comes the growth slows down to once a week cutting.....and when the dry spell arrives in July/Aug/Sept. we can sometimes go 10 -14 days between mowing. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Dave on 02/25/14 at 13:47:39 6B64686269646F636473666473010 wrote:
Yep.....me too! The chainsaws also get a dose of Avgas/oil mix run through them when they are going into storage......then the fuel is dumped out and they idle until the carbs and fuel lines are out of fuel. They always start right up when I need them and put fresh fuel in. I would much rather spend some extra time and money on a little Avgas cleansing of the system.....than I would tearing my equipment apart to repair fuel system corrosion issues. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 02/25/14 at 13:53:40 I don't dump out the Avgas, but in the fall, I don't fill the bike's tank either. Just a little dab will do ya, as the old saying goes. Then I fill it in the spring with auto fuel, and off she goes. My bike is a 2006 model, so I don't want to run it too much on the leaded fuel. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 02/25/14 at 13:55:32 I meant to say that I don't worry about condensation putting water in the tank over the winter - the bike stays in a heated hangar at the airport. If it sat out, or in a cold garage, then I would fill the tank with Avgas in the fall to keep the condensation out. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Dave on 10/30/14 at 18:30:34 Well it has been a year since I started this test, and a lot has happened in the last few months. Here is the cast: http://i62.tinypic.com/35lvuv4.jpg E85 - The E85 was added to the test on 11-09-13. It has changed very little in volume, there is no rust on the steel, the brass looks fine, and the aluminum has turned black with corrosion. http://i58.tinypic.com/23sbr83.jpg The regular pump gas has phase separation, a lot of the gas has evaporated, there is an orange jelly on the aluminum, the brass looks OK, and the steel is badly rusted. http://i62.tinypic.com/2gw8dvl.jpg http://i60.tinypic.com/15hh55c.jpg The regular pump gas with the Star-Tron added has phase separation, a lot of the gas has evaporated, there is an orange jelly on the aluminum, the brass looks OK, and the steel is badly rusted. http://i57.tinypic.com/208b4a9.jpg The ethanol free 91+ gas from Country Mark Co-Op has no phase separation, some of the gas has evaporated, the aluminum, brass and steel look perfect. The color appears a little more orange than it was a year ago. http://i62.tinypic.com/b3pxr6.jpg The 94 Octane leaded Sunoco racing fuel has no phase separation, some of the gas has evaporated, the aluminum, brass and steel look perfect. http://i60.tinypic.com/29zcvbk.jpg The 100LL Avgas has no phase separation, some of the gas has evaporated, the aluminum, brass look perfect....the steel has some surface rust on it. http://i62.tinypic.com/2dufr5z.jpg What is the bottom line? Pump gas with ethanol can begin to deteriorate in as little as 50 days. You can use E10 in your bike safely...provided you use it enough to require a fill-up once a month. The premium deteriorated in 50 days, the regular held up longer....maybe this proves the rumor that premium pump gas gets old sitting in the tanks at the gas station. Adding Star-Tron seemed to delay the phase separation for a while - but it did not last a year. I was surprised the Avgass 100LL allowed the steel to rust.....planes are in storage a lot and I did not expect this. For me, I am going to store my Honda ST1100 with the ethanol free gasoline and a fuel stabilizer in the fuel tank, and drain the carb float bowls. All the other bikes that are gravity fuel systems are going to be drained....both fuel tank and carbs. Dave |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/30/14 at 20:02:43 WOW,, just WOW,,So, to all who continue to say there's no real difference.. Thanks for running this long term lab. Serving to,once again,confirm my beliefs... |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by HondaLavis on 10/30/14 at 21:00:22 AWESOME information. Great test, man. You had rubber o-rings on the steel tubes, right? Did any of them have any noticeable deterioration? |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by old_rider on 10/30/14 at 22:15:32 Next test, storage with aeration? or shake them up once a week? Glass bottles? |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Serowbot on 10/30/14 at 22:36:29 Blueish, greenish, reddish, yellowish, and white... I believe we can paint... :)... Great effort on the test!... I wonder in retrospect... how significant the integrity of the cap seal was... Since our tanks are vented... Then again,... nearly all the fuel might have evaporated if the caps had all been drilled to allow a small, intentional vent hole... ... but, I wonder if the difference in evaporation was effected by cap seal?... Either way,.... I'm amazed at the obvious visual differences... Thanks for taking the time, and letting us follow along... ;)... For comparison... Start... http://i43.tinypic.com/2kklmx.jpg End... http://i62.tinypic.com/35lvuv4.jpg |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/30/14 at 23:21:54 The caps were tight? |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Dave on 10/31/14 at 03:16:09 756A6C6B7671407040786A662D1F0 wrote:
I drilled a 1/16" hole in the caps to work as a tank vent. The bottle were stored in my wood shed (metal carport) - so they were exposed to temperature and humidity changes, while no actual rain could get to the bottles. This is the same way you would store your bike under a carport, or in a shed. The O-rings I used are new ones, and I believe they are Nitrile. Most likely resistant to fuel or ethanol. I bought them to use in the petcock of my trials motorcycle, and was careful to buy something that held up to fuel....as the factory O-ring got soft when I used E-10 pump gas. I had done this test a couple of years ago, and the caps were tight and the bottles were stored in my insulated and heated garage....and there was not any steel, brass or aluminum in the bottles. I didn't learn anything from the test. The pump gas did have some phase separation....but it didn't prove anything. One interesting thing is that with the pump gas the steel only rusted in the "sludge" layer that formed at the bottom - while the Avgas 100LL allowed the steel to get some surface rust all over. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by ToesNose on 10/31/14 at 04:13:23 Dave thank you for your time and effort, this was a very cool experiment and we're all glad you let us share in it ;) |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Dave on 10/31/14 at 05:37:09 Another thing I found interesting, is how the E10 pump gas evaporated so much more than the other gasoline types. These fuels came from stations in the Cincinnati Metro area....and they most likely are "reformulated" fuels that are EPA mandated for to help clean up the local air quality. The fuel was purchased in October 2013 - so I would imagine this is not the "summer" blend. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Serowbot on 10/31/14 at 08:39:28 Dang!.. you thought of everything!... Great test!... Now, what do you do with the gas?... Bonfire?... ant killer?... neighbors car?... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/31/14 at 22:34:02 Well,NOW you're gonna hafta rerun the whole thing with Summer blend gas.. I can't BELIEVE you didn't cover THAT base, I mean, come On, man, REALLY? That was a really good test. That the steel rust line was on the line in the gas says a lot.. That the factory o-rings broke down in pump gas,, well, that says a,lot, too. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Dave on 11/01/14 at 05:09:30 The Sherco trials bike had a Nylon fuel tank, and a rubber O-ring. I bought the bike new and within 2 months the fuel tank had swelled and pushing the back fender off the mount. I took the tank off and let it air out for two weeks, and it returned to the original size. The O-ring lasted about 6 months. Once I started running the CountryMark ethanol free fuel...I never had any more problems in the 4 years I owned the bike. |
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Title: Re: Long Term Fuel Storage Test Post by Dave on 02/15/16 at 16:34:34 I did one more test this winter. The Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky area (Boone, Kenton and Campbell Counties) are required to use Reformulated Fuel - while Pendleton County to our south is not. Additionally - there is a Shell Station in Pendleton County that does not use Blender Pumps - so when I get Premium I am not buying a hose full of Regular before the Premium starts flowing. I was curious if the Reformulated Fuel or the non-Reformulated fuel deteriorated faster - so I bought Regular and Premium from both stations and did another test. I was surprised when the Premium from Pendleton County showed the phase separation first (not Reformulated)...maybe because they don't sell a lot of Premium down there and the fuel may sit in their tanks a long time....it showed phase separation in about 2 months. The others caught up within a few weeks, and showed a little bit of ethanol settling out on the bottom. (Even if you shake the bottles it does not go back into solution - which is an indication the ethanol has absorbed enough humidity from the air that it no longer mixes with the gasoline). http://i64.tinypic.com/kdanmg.jpg http://i63.tinypic.com/2qsp3dy.jpg http://i63.tinypic.com/2psngqr.jpg So what does this mean? For me....it means that any equipment that is going to sit unused for more than a month....the fuel is drained. This is applicable to anything that is in sheds, barns, under tarps...anything that is exposed to weather and temperature changes. These bottles have a small vent hole drilled in the cap, and there were stored in my woodshed where no rain or snow could get to them....just temperature and humidity changes. |
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