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Message started by Digger on 08/25/13 at 18:14:52

Title: Clutch Lever Index Marks
Post by Digger on 08/25/13 at 18:14:52

'k, I'm confused (happens a lot).....

When one is determining if one needs a new clutch push rod, one looks at the clutch lever's position (I'm talking about the clutch lever that sits on the starboard side of the engine, not the one that is mounted to the port side of the handlebars) relative to the index marks that are present inboard of the clutch cover.

Exactly which part of said lever is used to make the determination. Seems some say that the middle (longitudinal center) of said lever should be used, some say that the bottom edge of said lever should be used.

To show how this could be confusing, check out this pic (note that I was exerting a moderate upward force on the lever (to get rid of any slack in the system) when the pic was taken):

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee201/Digger109/LS650/ClutchCoverIndexMarks1E.jpeg

Given this situation, am I golden (as the bottom edge of the lever is smack dab between the index marks), or does the bike need a longer clutch push rod (as the longitudinal centerline of the clutch lever is about even with the top index mark)?

What say, clutch gurus?

Title: Re: Clutch Lever Index Marks
Post by Oldfeller on 08/25/13 at 18:17:27

I use the bottom edge.

Title: Re: Clutch Lever Index Marks
Post by Digger on 08/25/13 at 18:38:53

4261696B686161687F0D0 wrote:

I use the bottom edge.

So, OF says I'm golden.....

Others?

Title: Re: Clutch Lever Index Marks
Post by WD on 08/25/13 at 19:18:42

Bottom edge here. Reminds me I need to check mine again... I may get it back on the road yet.

Title: Re: Clutch Lever Index Marks
Post by Dave on 08/26/13 at 06:30:16

My intuition tells me that the lever goes up to release......so as the clutch pack wears the lever will actually move down on those marks.

I think you are in good shape now.....and will be even"gooder" as things wear.

Title: Re: Clutch Lever Index Marks
Post by Oldfeller on 08/26/13 at 08:28:52

Can go backerds, depends on what you got wearing the most. Cable stretch and rod wear moves it down, clutch pack wear moves it up.

I have always had a lot more cable stretch and rod wear than clutch pack wear, so my lever has always migrated up and all my adjustment screws have migrated out.

But that's just me.

Title: Re: Clutch Lever Index Marks
Post by Digger on 08/26/13 at 18:37:22

162D2037262A31372C242936450 wrote:

Dave,

FYI, here is a link to a darned fine clutch war that waged and was over before your time:

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1273183239

One of the best wars we've ever staged here....

Title: Re: Clutch Lever Index Marks
Post by Digger on 08/26/13 at 18:54:21

To review the bidding, we've had two (OF and WD) say that they use the bottom edge of the lever as the datum.

From another thread (http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1377316690), it appears as if Verslagen uses the middle of said lever as his datum.

Hmmm.....

What is truth here?

At issue is heading off clutch actuation cam breaks......

Title: Re: Clutch Lever Index Marks
Post by Oldfeller on 08/26/13 at 19:33:07

Dudes, we are still learning more about said clutch -- my personal learnings are that I have been partially wrong about half the time, and partially right at the same time.

I think that the model that says "cable stretch and clutch rod wear DO happen a lot faster and go this a way while clutch pack wear is much slower and goes the other way" is the correct mental model to keep in your mind.

You should have your "does nothing useful" free travel at the lever evenly split between the "before"and "after"clutch engagement action zone.

Mine is currently 20% free, 60% engagement zone and 20% free, but I have a very old well worn set of plates right now and those ratios will change when I clean the steels and fibers back up again and try to go for the extra steel and fiber plates (which will be my next big clutch experiment).

You have to do all clutch adjustments on a rolling full temperature engine, there is no such thing as adjusting your clutch while stationary, much less on a cold engine.

Title: Re: Clutch Lever Index Marks
Post by Digger on 08/26/13 at 21:59:57

47646C6E6D64646D7A080 wrote:

....Cable stretch and rod wear moves it down, clutch pack wear moves it up....

Old,

I'm thinkin' that we need to cut cable stretch out of this calculus altogether. Since we have agreed that we need to exert a moderate upward force on the subject clutch lever to get a wear reading, seems to me that said lever has no way of "knowing" how much cable stretch there is.

Thoughts, anyone?

Title: Re: Clutch Lever Index Marks
Post by Oldfeller on 08/27/13 at 12:48:11

If you are thinking solely about the lever position, you are correct. If you are a newbie trying to adjust a clutch, you need to know about cable stretch as it is the primary reason you have to be adjusting the thing all the time.

But you are correct, cable stretch is "upstream" to the lever adjustment completely.

So, "lever talk" is about rod wear and plate wear, which go in different directions as expressed on the lever position.

Title: Re: Clutch Lever Index Marks
Post by Digger on 08/27/13 at 15:11:14

597A7270737A7A7364160 wrote:

Agreed...no argument there....

So, let's say a newbie buys a used bike with some miles on it and is told by the PO that the OEM cam chain adjuster is still in there. She proactively buys a verslavy and prepares for the surgery.

But, she's a diligent newbie and figures that, because the clutch cover is already going to be off, now would be a good time to check to see if a different clutch push rod will be needed. So, after some study, she conducts a correctly performed lower clutch lever inspection and come up with this:

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee201/Digger109/LS650/ClutchCoverIndexMarks1E.jpeg

Now she's concerned. Two smart guys on this board (Oldfeller and WD) say that she does not need a different push rod. Another smart guy (Verslagen) says that she DOES need a different push rod (a longer one, in this case). Then, she finds something from this other guy, Digger (who doesn't seem real smart), who is as confused as she! She will be going on a trip on the bike and she is afraid of breaking a clutch actuator cam....

What should she do?

Title: Re: Clutch Lever Index Marks
Post by Steve H on 08/27/13 at 15:24:09

With it there, I believe I would let it ride if there were no clutch problems evident.

Title: Re: Clutch Lever Index Marks
Post by Oldfeller on 08/27/13 at 15:33:46

A theoretical female newbie asking theoretical questions ...... hmmmm.

From the sealant in the picture and I would say somebody has already worked on the bike.

Tell her to speak up, we'd be glad to meet her.

Title: Re: Clutch Lever Index Marks
Post by verslagen1 on 08/27/13 at 15:43:51

This is similar to the pic I snagged from OF thread.
And while it said it was ok, I think it's marginal.
If the cover is coming off any way, measure the rod sticking out of the clutch pack.
12.5mm is about the maximum rod length. 13mm is definitely too long.
as proposed (and I agree) the rod and cable lengths are more likely to change than the clutch plates.
If the rod length is less than 11.5, time for a new rod.

Also, I prefer to have a full radius on the ends of the rod. Promotes smoother action with the sintered actuator cam. Also spins better. But rounding the corners effectively makes the rod shorter. Which is why I like the max length rod sticking out.

And the more rod you have sticking out the more effective the motion is.

Title: Re: Clutch Lever Index Marks
Post by Digger on 11/09/13 at 19:42:17

5D4E5958474A4C4E451A2B0 wrote:

....If the cover is coming off any way, measure the rod sticking out of the clutch pack.
12.5mm is about the maximum rod length. 13mm is definitely too long.
as proposed (and I agree) the rod and cable lengths are more likely to change than the clutch plates.
If the rod length is less than 11.5, time for a new rod.

Also, I prefer to have a full radius on the ends of the rod. Promotes smoother action with the sintered actuator cam. Also spins better. But rounding the corners effectively makes the rod shorter. Which is why I like the max length rod sticking out.

And the more rod you have sticking out the more effective the motion is.

Ver,

I've made a note to myself to revisit this thread the next time the clutch cover is off. I'll then try to clear up the mystery (unless someone can do so sooner).

Title: Re: Clutch Lever Index Marks
Post by cafecarl on 11/11/13 at 07:25:36

I just looked at my clutch lever marks, the lever pushes up to the same spot as yours Digger. Having said that, my clutch slips when I wrench the throttle in the higher gears. She's a high miler and the PO gave me no history so I wasn't surprised. I've been babying it and planned to do a clutch job this winter. If this this is within spec. perhaps I should suspect something else... like oil ? I used Rotella T. Or maybe yours is on the fringe. Then again maybe we should forget about the marks. :-/