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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> TRILLIONS to protect Americans from /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1370742290 Message started by Starlifter on 06/08/13 at 18:44:50 |
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Title: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by Starlifter on 06/08/13 at 18:44:50 Item: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from "Terrorists" And yet we cannot even fund Meals on Wheels. This is the part of the War on Terror and the NSA surveillance state that blows one's mind. "It is also worth noting that out of the 3,033 deaths attributed to terrorism since 2000, 2,996 were from 9/11. More precisely since 9/11, only 33 deaths were from Muslim Terrorists versus 150,000 deaths from homicides in America. Of the 33, all were from mass shootings that are only classified as terrorism because the shooters were Muslim. Had the shooters been a guy with orange hair who thought he was the joker, then mysteriously it suddenly becomes not-terrorism. That means you are 4500 times more likely to be killed by a fellow American than by a Muslim jihadist and 1830 times more likely to be killed at work by some corner cutting company than Al Qaeda. So when the next regressive idiot on Fox News or on Talk Radio starts screaming for us to invade Iran, tell them to adequately fund and enforce work place safety inspections and do something about our infrastructure first. The War on Terror and the surveillance state are not keeping us safer. They are primarily a way to steal oceans of money for a very tiny group of people and to put in place the mechanisms for despotism. Trillions to raid the Treasury and bolster rich people's accounts. It's all part of some bigger plan. As the right-wing 'think tank' Project For a New American Century stated in it's internal 'white paper' report on it's long term objectives: "If you can orchestrate a "new Pearl Harbor" you can create a new enemy - a new, horrifyingly evil, elusive enemy in the Middle East that will rally Americans behind an invasion and create a continuous "war on Terror". This action will result in the means to establish a huge controlling military presence that will dominate the region." ******************************************************************************* Americans have been, are, and will be lied to about the "terrorists". The only terrorists we have to fear are the ones created by the United States. |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by oldNslow on 06/08/13 at 19:11:09 Starlifter wrote: Quote:
Reminds me of a book a guy named Orwell wrote sixty four years ago. The astonishing thing is that he figured it out way back then, but most people even now still don't get it. 1984 is the instruction manual for today's government. The phony wars in the novel are exactly the same as what we got now. |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/08/13 at 19:58:52 Hey,, it isnt fox news that has us in A/stan or anywhere else,, \&, while Bammy happily announces the war on terror is over, he continues surveillance, NO, INcreases it, on americans,, \NOT to say if a bub had won it wuldnt be the same,, I suspect Romney would have been as bad.. at least AS bad,, Its not the pres running policy, its the globalists,, BUT, I suspect this pres agrees with their plan.. |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by Starlifter on 06/08/13 at 23:21:28 Item: James Bamford: Post-September 11, NSA ‘enemies’ include us. "Somewhere between Sept. 11 and today, the enemy morphed from a handful of terrorists to the American population at large, leaving us nowhere to run and no place to hide." “We were told that we were to listen to all conversations that were intercepted, to include those of Americans,” Adrienne Kinne, a former NSA “voice interceptor,” told me. She was recalled to active duty after Sept. 11. “Some of those conversations are personal,” she said. “Some even intimate. … I had a real problem with the fact that people were listening to it and that I was listening to it. … When I was on active duty in ’94 to ’98, we would never collect on an American.” "So much intercepted information is now being collected from “enemies” at home and abroad that, in order to store it all, the agency last year began constructing the ultimate monument to eavesdropping. Rising in a remote corner of Utah, the agency’s gargantuan data storage center will be 1 million square feet, cost nearly $2 billion and likely be capable of eventually holding more than a yottabyte of data — equal to about a septillion (1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) pages of text." " Rather, it was years of fearmongering that sent everyone rushing across the bridge. Without these draconian measures, we were told, we were in imminent danger of death by terrorist. For the Bush administration, the constant drumbeat of fear was necessary to launch and support the war in Iraq since no real danger existed. From the outside, America began resembling Deputy Barney Fife from “The Andy Griffith Show,” shaking and trembling and constantly pointing a gun in every direction. There was Homeland Security with its rainbow of colors for security alerts; the weekly warnings of dire attacks, with no indication of time or location, none of which ever turned out to be credible; messages plastered on buses and billboards warning members of the public to keep a close eye on their neighbors and even their family; and body frisks at airports by security thugs looking for forbidden tubes of toothpaste." Full Article: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0911/62999.html |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/09/13 at 01:07:35 WEll,, lets see,, If I knew all that security stuff was gonna get used ON us instead of FOR us, does that make me right yet? |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by Pine on 06/09/13 at 09:31:41 Funny ( not) and sad is that the "news" that governemnt has been snooping on all american citizens... isnt NEW... I heard this YEARS ago. Why the heck wasnt it a big deal when ..oh... thats right Ron Paul brought it up.. must not be anything. There is ZERO doubt in my mind that a few senators really believe they are doing the right thing... there is equally zero doubt in my mind they are wrong and have been mis-led by big-money lobbyists fear-mongering for the benefit of the military complex. NO matter what a stoopid senator says ("I dont care if the NSA has my number") HE is wrong. And lets make it clear.. the terrorist WON! They did not seek to take over the US.. they did not seek to kill everyone... they only aimed to put fear into everyone.. or at least into the those that mattered ( government). To substanially chagne the lives of EVERY american. They won. And every senator that voted for such laws .. HELPED THEM. |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/09/13 at 10:09:44 Our goobs wanted the event. It gave them carte blanche to sell fear & allow them to create our "Safety",, by us giving up freedom., All parta the plan.,. Ill never believe the patriot act was written after 9/11. Those scanners? YOu want me to believe they hadnt already been designed & built & ready to send to airports? Look how long it took to see them deployed. Have you ever seen anyone design & build such so quickly? Who benefited from 9/11? Me? YOu? Not even the "terrorists" benefited. They got war. Only our goobs benefited. |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by Starlifter on 06/09/13 at 19:18:53 "Only our goobs benefited". No, not just them, the industries that make and supply all that expensive surveillance crap, the arms industry and their billionaire CEO's...they all benifited big time! |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/09/13 at 20:21:56 TRue enough |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by Starlifter on 06/09/13 at 20:23:25 The private companies are owned by cronies of the people who wage the wars, or perform the security. All at a very inflated price. And the things these people do are outrageous. They have immunity from any crimes they commit. Very much like the revolving door of government, lobbyist and corporations that benefit from the lobbyist who used to be a congressman who use to be a high ranking exec in a corporation who use to be...well you get the idea. These massively wasteful, ineffective, unconstitutional policies are also being managed by private third parties, unaccountable to the American people. Constitutional Rights...For Sale! Discounts given for campaign contributions!... Everything is for sale when Capitalism rules the country. |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/09/13 at 22:42:07 Thats NOT Capitalism, Hell,, I bribe a judge, thats capitalism? Criminal behavior for money is corruption, not capitalism,. You want paid when you work? THATS a capitalists idea. |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by WD on 06/09/13 at 23:14:57 514E484F52556454645C4E42093B0 wrote:
And also National Socialist... a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. Capitalist is outsourcing jobs (that could be done better on your home soil) in order to cut production costs and sell more substandard product because the average consumer is too dumb to read a label and keeps buying what looks similar, but is inferior at ALL levels (including the packaging). >:( And the port security measures in this country are a farce. Drive your tractor trailer through an x-ray machine going in or out unless you are running bobtail or your containerized freight is on a company owned instead of shipping line owned chassis. Oh, and make sure that you stop for the inspection when your chi-com ceramics set off the radiation detectors... and make sure that the load of dehydrated and powdered bananas gets swept out properly before you return the container to the pier or reload it (customs destroys 40% of every banana powder load searching for cocaine and marijuana hidden in the boxes, and the receiver has to eat the cost of the damaged product, that is no longer fit for human consumption, so even the pet food places can't buy it)... >:( |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/09/13 at 23:26:45 SEarches shouldnt destroy. Ive always thot that was wrong.. |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by RatdogWillie on 06/10/13 at 07:28:25 http://i.imgur.com/5KkKSa0.jpg |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by Paraquat on 06/10/13 at 09:12:08 736C6A6D70774676467E6C602B190 wrote:
The difference is that if Romney had been elected the Democrats wouldn't take any of this BS. But because Obama sports a D after his name they are looking the other way and pretending it isn't happening. --Steve |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by Pine on 06/10/13 at 11:13:03 Its kinda funny to see things go full circle.... Now that election rhetoric has died down.. everyone seems to be in agreement there are issues.. the issues are bigger than an R or D.... Washington is being run not by the people nor for the people. I wish I could give my children something better to inherit. |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/10/13 at 21:39:50 6C5D4E5D4D495D483C0 wrote:
The difference is that if Romney had been elected the Democrats wouldn't take any of this BS. But because Obama sports a D after his name they are looking the other way and pretending it isn't happening. --Steve [/quote] Its called "Left Cover". What I rebel against is that ANYONE would support wrong. If Bush's IRS had shafted lefty organizations these lefties would be screaming bloody murder, but, since it was right wing people who got screwed, its okay, & people wonder why America is goin down the tubes! |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by srinath on 06/11/13 at 12:04:54 342B2D2A3730013101392B276C5E0 wrote:
Oh yea nice of you to feel this way JOG - You see Bush did send the IRS after his rivals - http://www.salon.com/2013/05/14/when_the_irs_targeted_liberals/ And get this - it was a Bush appointee who was running the IRS @ that time. Like I said ... you criticise Obama, and when Bush did the same thing - you critcise "both sides". Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/11/13 at 12:08:40 Bush did wrong when he did wrong. As far as Im concerned, we havent seen a president that shouldnt be in prison since REagan, LBJ sure shoulda been in jail. |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by srinath on 06/11/13 at 12:56:56 584741465B5C6D5D6D55474B00320 wrote:
I guess that's called right cover then ? Yea Reagan put in the biggest gun control measure there ever was enacted - the Brady Bill. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/11/13 at 13:16:06 Answer the ?,, is Obama right or wrong. Dont weigh him against anyone else,, just look at HIM, his actions. Dont forgi=ve him because someone else didnt get slapped for doing wrong,is he RIGHT!? Or Not., |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by Starlifter on 06/11/13 at 21:44:16 "If Bush's IRS had shafted lefty organizations these lefties would be screaming bloody murder, but, since it was right wing people who got screwed, its okay." ...so I can assume that you're a rightie? BTW, it was Ronny Ray-gun who started this whole mess. After Boosh he is the 2nd worst president ever! |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/11/13 at 21:51:26 I DO NOT CARE WHO STARTED IT!@ ITS WRONG,, It was wrong then, its wrong now,, Im sure as hell NOT a leftie.,.Im not a Republican,, I am a Constitutionalist & Libertarian, I believe in rights, freedoms & responsibilities. |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by Starlifter on 06/11/13 at 22:50:43 NSA 2001 'memo' pushed to 'rethink' 4th Amendment 'Rethink' the 4th Amendment??? WTF!!! *This breach of the 4th Amendment is not new! ALL of these current misdeeds have been in place for for over 12 years!! We are just now begining to learn the truth. The National Security Agency pushed for the government to “rethink” the Fourth Amendment when it argued in a classified memo that it needed new authorities and capabilities for the information age. The 2001 memo, later declassified and posted online by George Washington University’s National Security Archive, makes a case to the incoming George W. Bush administration that the NSA needs new authorities and technology to adapt to the Internet era. In one key paragraph, NSA wrote that its new phase meant the U.S. must reevaluate its approach toward signals intelligence, or “SIGINT,” and the Constitution’s Fourth Amendment protections against unreasonable search and seizure. “The Fourth Amendment is as applicable to eSIGINT as it is to the SIGINT of yesterday and today,” it wrote. “The Information Age will however cause us to rethink and reapply the procedures, policies and authorities born in an earlier electronic surveillance environment.” http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/nsa-memo-4th-amendment-92416.html The US government, with assistance from major telecommunications carriers including AT&T, has engaged in a massive program of illegal dragnet surveillance of domestic communications and communications records of millions of ordinary Americans since at least 2001. News reports in December 2005 first revealed that the National Security Agency (NSA) has been intercepting Americans’ phone calls and Internet communications. Those news reports, combined with a USA Today story in May 2006 and the statements of several members of Congress, revealed that the NSA is also receiving wholesale copies of American's telephone and other communications records. All of these surveillance activities are in violation of the privacy safeguards established by Congress and the US Constitution. The evidence also shows that the government did not act alone. EFF has obtained whistleblower evidence [PDF] from former AT&T technician Mark Klein showing that AT&T is cooperating with the illegal surveillance. The undisputed documents show that AT&T installed a fiberoptic splitter at its facility at 611 Folsom Street in San Francisco that makes copies of all emails web browsing and other Internet traffic to and from AT&T customers and provides those copies to the NSA. This copying includes both domestic and international Internet activities of AT&T customers. As one expert observed “this isn’t a wiretap, it’s a country-tap.” EFF is fighting these illegal activities in the courts. Currently, EFF is representing victims of the illegal surveillance program in Jewel v. NSA, a lawsuit filed in September 2008 seeking to stop the warrantless wiretapping and hold the government and government officials officials behind the program accountable. Previously, in Hepting v. AT&T. EFF filed the first case against a cooperating telecom for violating its customers' privacy. After Congress expressly intervened in the FISA Amendments Act to allow the Executive to require dismissal of the case, the case was ultimately dismissed by the US Supreme Court. Ex-NSA Analyst J. Kirk Wiebe recalls: "everything changed at the NSA after the attacks on September 11. The prior approach focused on complying with the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act ("FISA"). The post-September 11 approach was that NSA could circumvent federal statutes and the Constitution as long as there was some visceral connection to looking for terrorists." While another ex-NSA analyst also remembers: "The individual liberties preserved in the US Constitution were no longer a consideration (at the NSA)." ********************************************************************** The US Constitution: "It's Just A Goddamm Piece Of Paper"!...Remember who said that? This has been going on since the passage of the Patriot Act. All this fuss over the 2nd amendment?? THE WHOLE GODDAMMNED CONSTITUTION IS UNDER ATTACK!!! |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by srinath on 06/12/13 at 07:28:25 5D4244435E5968586850424E05370 wrote:
Dude I dont have to answer squat. Obama is getting slammed only because congress and the media is republican. Bush did all the same things and got applauded. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by srinath on 06/12/13 at 07:44:10 5D7A6F7C6267687A6B7C0E0 wrote:
Yes and 1/2 the thing needs to go. The anchor babies, the abuse of senatorial power, the abuse of taxes, the search and seizure etc etc are all waaaaaaaay under abuse and attack from nearly all sides. BTW I'd like to add a new amendment in addition to rewriting 1/2 of it ... its illegal to have any language other than english used in any document or official capacity. As in no BS message like For english Press 1, " Para espanol Marquay il tres" I'd in fact outlaw public use of any other language period. I had lugged this 40lb VCR to the counter @ the local thrift last week when 1 mexican in front of me @ the register started arguing with the cashier mexican in spanish. Went on and on and on ... line was getting longer and longer ... then when they settled on a price or whatever the Fruck they were doing, the customer woman walked away to her car to get something ... so I decided to plonk the heavy a$$ VCR on the register and leave. Yea let those fools haul it back to the back ... and a few people behind me did similar ... Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/12/13 at 08:35:06 3C3D26212E3B274F0 wrote:
Dude I dont have to answer squat. Obama is getting slammed only because congress and the media is republican. Bush did all the same things and got applauded. Cool. Srinath.[/quote] Ta Daaaa! Youve got no intellectual honesty, |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by Paraquat on 06/12/13 at 09:10:27 253A3C3B2621102010283A367D4F0 wrote:
We can't go back and compare him to anyone else. One of his campaign promises was to go back and examine Bush and then, once elected, he changed his mind and decided not to. Therefore we have no baseline against which to compare him to. --Steve |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by srinath on 06/12/13 at 09:29:11 6F5E4D5E4E4A5E4B3F0 wrote:
We can't go back and compare him to anyone else. One of his campaign promises was to go back and examine Bush and then, once elected, he changed his mind and decided not to. Therefore we have no baseline against which to compare him to. --Steve[/quote] See we were worried he may not keep his election promises. He is making steps in their direction. Withdrawl of troops from the 2 wars, closing guantanamo (which BTW republicans have NIMBY'ed) etc etc. The Fear was that RMoney would keep his promises. Ergo, we voted for Obama. Lesser of 2 evils ... 6F7076716C6B5A6A5A62707C37050 wrote:
Dude I dont have to answer squat. Obama is getting slammed only because congress and the media is republican. Bush did all the same things and got applauded. Cool. Srinath.[/quote] Ta Daaaa! Youve got no intellectual honesty, [/quote] Ta Daaaa! Your ideas are stupid. Ideas not you ... your ideas are stupid. Much like all TEA Baggers your speciality is bolting the barn door after the horse has bolted. Again not referenced you as a TEA bagger. Even though you are accusing me. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/12/13 at 10:35:48 I asked a question, you wont even answer it,, why? |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by srinath on 06/12/13 at 11:57:26 7D6264637E7948784870626E25170 wrote:
So I can be bashed some more ... no thanks. I know better than to answer any direct question from you. You criticize Obama for his mistakes. You criticize "both sides" for Bushies mistakes. That right there tells me what sort of morality you have. The stand I would take is always that I voted for the lesser of 2 evils. We dont live in a world of absolutes. God wasn't on the ballot in my little precinct. Sadly I had to decide between someone I hoped would hold his election promises and someone I was afraid would hold his. Vote for the smaller devil. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/12/13 at 12:12:54 I cxriticise BUSH when BUsh is wrong,I criticise Bammy when he is wrong. Each is worthy of constant criticism, |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by srinath on 06/12/13 at 12:48:00 3B242225383F0E3E0E36242863510 wrote:
Yes I believe Rush "my house keeper gave me these pills to snort, what, these are not tylenol?" Limbaugh did that too. Its like this - Vote for Cheney/Bush, vote for Cheney/Bush, Cheney/Bush is bad, awful ... now we should all vote for Palin and it will all be perfect. Cool. Srinath. OOOO my 3000th post. Wheeeeee. |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by WD on 06/12/13 at 14:00:20 This is almost as amusing as reading newspaper articles from the old Weimar Republic... everybody wants to play the blame game, and nobody can come up ANY sort of workable solution to the issues. This country is going the way of Imperial Rome, Hellenistic Greece, the Spanish Empire, the British Empire... and for the same chicken sh!t, he said she said nanny-boo-boo reasons. I know everyone on this board was alive to watch the Iron Curtain implode under the weight of its own stupidity and mismanagement... surely I'm not the only person who sees this country going the same way? |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by Starlifter on 06/12/13 at 17:15:58 No not at all true. We liberals and you conservitests both hate, loath, and oppose, (and will go any extream to fight this violation of the 4th amendment). Your post is completly out of line, and not at all true. We liberals and you conservatists both hate, loath, and oppose, this issue, and we will go any extreme to fight this violation of the 4th amendment.... We are all Americans together, and this will not stand! |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/12/13 at 20:19:59 Well,, Obama stands happily supporting this destruiction of the 4th.. Now,, How can anyone support him? |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by Midnightrider on 06/12/13 at 20:47:59 I no longer support him and I'm looking forward to the day he leaves office, I just hope Hillary doesn't take his place. Rand Paul is my choice but I'm afraid he'll be shot. He calls a spade a spade and whoever is running Washington will not put up with that. |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by Pine on 06/13/13 at 06:10:35 1003470 wrote:
No it has not escaped me WD... Roman empire lasted 500 years, or until the people learned they could print (more) money and get rich! |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by srinath on 06/13/13 at 09:40:52 6B747275686F5E6E5E66747833010 wrote:
Yes both political parties should be destroying the 4th ... that's Both parties. I will hold both parties fire to the feet. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by Midnightrider on 06/13/13 at 19:25:07 5C4345425F5869596951434F04360 wrote:
+1 |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by Midnightrider on 06/13/13 at 19:34:01 I really don't believe the president runs the country anymore. I think Obama got his orders from the powers that be to do away with the 2nd and 4th amendment. Bush was ordered to create the privacy act and the Dept of Homeland Security. No one that cared for this country could be doing all this crazy sh!t to harm it. They took an oath to uphold the constitution and the first thing they do is try to rip it apart. They're traitors, pure and simple or someone else is calling the shots. |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/13/13 at 21:02:12 77766D6A65706C040 wrote:
Yes both political parties should be destroying the 4th ... that's Both parties. I will hold both parties fire to the feet. Cool. Srinath.[/quote] Huhh? You dont like the 4th amendment? |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by srinath on 06/14/13 at 08:05:05 514E484F52556454645C4E42093B0 wrote:
Yes both political parties should be destroying the 4th ... that's Both parties. I will hold both parties fire to the feet. Cool. Srinath.[/quote] Huhh? You dont like the 4th amendment?[/quote] I mean both houses of congress should destroy it. Yea ... Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/14/13 at 10:35:37 Why? Whats wrong with having a right to privacy? |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by srinath on 06/14/13 at 11:33:02 415E585F42457444744C5E52192B0 wrote:
That's why I blame both parties, both houses of congress and both north and south america. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/14/13 at 13:31:11 Yep,, YOuve lost it, again,, no communicating with that,, OUT, later |
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Title: Re: TRILLIONS to protect Americans from Post by srinath on 06/17/13 at 08:47:45 687771766B6C5D6D5D65777B30020 wrote:
Yea now you know how we have always read your posts and felt ... The instant it looks like Bush may have done something wrong ... promptly its "Both parties need to be held to the fire". Cool. Srinath. |
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