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Message started by svenofthejungle on 04/26/13 at 18:39:35

Title: Bad stator or regulator/rectifier?
Post by svenofthejungle on 04/26/13 at 18:39:35

So I've been stranded a lot lately at gas stations. I'll fuel up, get back on the bike, press the starter button, expecting to hear the thrum of the engine, but getting nothing but clicking.

Before I dump a dissertation on the elusive electric gremlin (Frustrator electricus), relevant info on my bike: 2002 Suzuki LS650, all electric parts stock, 28k miles (I've had it since 19k). Relevant info on rider: novice at electrical work, first clear memory in life was sticking keys in an outlet. So I'm pretty much a doofus when it comes to wiring, but a doofus eager to learn.

So:

First time this happened, I replaced the battery (the unit was at least a year and a half old, in Florida). Result: Got stranded again. Wasn't the battery, apparently.

Second time around, I was able to jump-start the bike and get her running, but the second I released the clutch and pulled away, the bike would die. When I got home, I checked the clutch cable (result: free play was within spec) and waited till the next day to check the charging system.

Charging system check: got 100+V from all three yellow wires per the Clymer Manual no-load alternator test. Very low continuity across all three yellow wires, between 2 and 3 ohms. Good, right?

I discovered the plastic from the connector box that hooks the regulator/rectifier up to the alternator was fried at the black wire, so I clipped the wires, put new connectors on each, cleaned contacts thoroughly, put fresh fuses in, gooped the hell out of everything with dielectric grease, and wound it the whole thing up with a generous amount of electrical tape (until I can run to the store and grab a connector box).

Problem solved? When I tested the charging system output, I was getting good voltage across the battery terminals at RPM: 13.5V - 14V

Hooray!

Nope! Last Monday, I climb on the bike, hit the starter button, and nothing but click-click-click. Third freaking time! >:(

I charged the battery up to full overnight, and start collecting more data:

Battery (fully charged, sat half a day unplugged from charger): 13.1V
---no drop in voltage when I hooked the battery up to the bike---
Battery (in bike, key on, lights at low beam): 12.55V
Battery voltage (during ignition sequence): drops to 10.28V then comes back up to 12.86V
Voltage at idle: 12.8V - 12.9V
Voltage at ~1/2 throttle: 13V

Bike fired up, I measure the voltage across the terminals from idle to about 1/2 throttle. I live in a quiet neighborhood, and wasn't about to rev the engine up to 5000RPM. Voltage rose with the throttle input, but never exceeded 13V. And anyways, the amount by which it rose was pretty insignificant. :(

So I took the bike out for a ride around town, about half an hour at varying RPM. When I came home the battery's resting voltage measured 12.89V (measured after the bike was off for about 3 hours). Yes, I made sure the key was in the 'off' position and not in the 'park' position. :P

This is where I am now. Bike has a new RR, which I will test for continuity once I find the thread on this board that shows you how to do it (the Clymer manual says "you can't do it" --- challenge accepted!). Alternator puts out volts, but not enough to keep the batt charged.

I'm hoping it's just a short or a bad battery, and I don't have to replace the stator or regulator/rectifier (after I already sunk seventy bucks into this new one). What does this look like to you?

Two more questions:

When replacing the connectors between the yellow wires and the red/black wires from the alternator to the rectifier, I snipped and capped an orange wire that led nowhere. It had a place in the connector box, but there was no corresponding wire leading from there to the rectifier. My question is: is this orange wire supposed to connect to something? It appears to be of no consequence yet, since the bike starts, runs, and has all its lights.
I measured resistance between the yellow wires and the frame, and I got back a value less than infinity. I'm no Thomas Edison, so forgive my ignorance, but doesn't that imply the stator's grounded and needs replaced? Will the stator still charge even a little bit if it's grounded?

Title: Re: Bad stator or regulator/rectifier?
Post by Digger on 04/26/13 at 19:57:52

Well written question!

A quick look at a wiring diagram revealed that there is an orange and black wire (among others) that exits the rectifier. It is definitely not dead-headed at that connector.

Good luck!

Title: Re: Bad stator or regulator/rectifier?
Post by ZAR on 04/26/13 at 20:10:22

59747A7A786F1D0 wrote:

You're right Digger! With the ability to process the information and translate it into a call for help such as this Sven is a prime candidate for DIY training. I just wish I had a tip for him :(

Title: Re: Bad stator or regulator/rectifier?
Post by Oldfeller on 04/26/13 at 20:21:14

You say you have a new battery and a new regulator rectifier and you have output over 13 volts when charging.

13.0 to 13.5 volts is sorta "low good" on a fresh regulator rectifier -- was this a used part by any chance?

14+/- part of a volt is optimal for charging at over 2,000 rpm

over 15 volts can lead to over charging

Did you clean your plug terminals, your battery terminals and the main negative ground on the engine case down near the clutch actuation lever?

If not you might want to clean everything up nice and bright and report your charging voltages again with nice clean terminals and ground.

Title: Re: Bad stator or regulator/rectifier?
Post by WD on 04/26/13 at 20:57:49

Jut for giggles, pull the black box attached to the frame over the carburetor. Hold it up to your ear and shake it... any rattling means IT is fragged and is your drain. Been there, deleted that...

Last time mine was licensed (2011) it ate 4 batteries in a year. Took awhile to find that the decompression solenoid relay was bad.

Title: Re: Bad stator or regulator/rectifier?
Post by svenofthejungle on 04/26/13 at 21:15:29

Digger: I saw the same thing when I had a look at the wiring diagram in my Clymer manual. Three yellow wires leading from the RR to the alternator, and a red, black, and orange wire going from the RR to the rest of the bike.

Now here's the mystery: the orange wire entered one end of the connector box, and there wasn't a corresponding orange wire going from the box to the r/r. Always has, since I got the bike, and I've done everything from riding 50+ miles on interstates to spending weeks putt-putting around town without charging problems. Only recently have I been running into charging problems, and if this orange wire was the problem, it presumably would have caused me problems earlier. Or am I assuming wrong?

Also, both the stock r/r and the new one I bought had only five wires coming out of the unit: the set of three yellow wires, and a red and a black wire, both of identical gauge. No orange.

In any case, I saved the connector boxes I clipped off the r/r and yellow wires. Something tells me it'd be a stupid idea to go out and connect the orange wire to the black wire and see what happens. I have every incentive to be careful with my bike, since it's my primary means of getting around.

Title: Re: Bad stator or regulator/rectifier?
Post by svenofthejungle on 04/26/13 at 21:23:42

0F2C2426252C2C2532400 wrote:

I have my doubts about the battery, so I'll have to get it load-tested some time soon.

The r/r was sold as new, but I got it from eBay, so who knows?

My battery terminals are squeaky clean as of this morning before I did the last round of tests. Main negative ground was cleaned recently, but it gets dirty pretty quickly down there, so I'll give it another go. All connector boxes in the wire harness under the seats were cleaned and gooped with dielectric grease before that, about two weeks ago.

If I get some time tomorrow, I'll give it another go, and make sure to clean the parts of the harness under the tank (since I haven't taken the tank off lately, and need to adjust the valve freeplay and decomp cable anyways). If I don't have a chance to, I'll make sure to report back when I do, and do so as soon as possible.

Title: Re: Bad stator or regulator/rectifier?
Post by svenofthejungle on 04/26/13 at 21:45:51

Forgot to mention: during the second round of tests, I tried removing the positive terminal from the bike while running to see if the alternator was putting out enough juice to run the bike without drawing on the battery. The engine slowed down and died after a few seconds if I left it at idle, but would hesitantly take on throttle if I rolled on gently. Is it supposed to do that? I know some bikes won't charge at idle (and therefore will pull a little from the battery), but will charge at higher RPMs.

I observed the same thing with a multimeter hooked up across the batt terminals when I got it to where it would charge just fine: stable 12.8-ish volts at idle, slight drop as I roll on until past idle, and then steady rise through volts up to about 14.8 as I raise RPM.

So I guess I'll have to order an alternator cover gasket and take a look at the stator. My intuition suggests it's not the alternator, even though signs suggest it might be grounding to the frame. It's putting out volts, but those volts aren't making it to the battery at a sufficient rate to charge it, which suggests anything from the wires leading from the alt to the r/r or the r/r itself. I won't get a chance to look at the stator for another week or so, since I'll need a gasket, but I'll report back when I do.

In the meantime, I'll keep trying to rule out the alternator as the problem and look for less-expensive explanations. Get those connectors squeaky clean, keep taking measurements, figure out how to test the r/r for continuity or lack thereof, load-test the battery (and replace if necessary, since it's under warranty). May my Google-fu be mighty.

Title: Re: Bad stator or regulator/rectifier?
Post by svenofthejungle on 04/26/13 at 21:48:10

4350140 wrote:

Never heard of that. I'll have to check it out when I tear the bike apart. During one of my sessions stranded at a gas station, someone told me about a mysterious black box you can just bypass. Is that it?

Title: Re: Bad stator or regulator/rectifier?
Post by WD on 04/26/13 at 21:53:20

If you delete it, you'll likely want a manual compression release lever. And some wire rerouting is necessary. Won't go into mine since I deleted all the bar switches as well and am still sorting out the mess. Not only was my decompression relay shorted out internally, my turn signal switch had fallen apart. Headlight switch quit working, starter button quit working... horn button was fried...

Title: Re: Bad stator or regulator/rectifier?
Post by svenofthejungle on 04/26/13 at 21:56:13

796A2E0 wrote:

Oh, so this box controls the decomp sequence during starting. I'll pass for now --- this is my first time screwing around with electro-gremlins, and I don't want to get them too excited. :)

Title: Re: Bad stator or regulator/rectifier?
Post by Charon on 04/27/13 at 05:03:30

When you measured the resistance between the yellow wires and the frame, you said you got less than infinity. This can happen if you were touching both of the meter leads with your fingers when you made the measurements, as the meter can sometimes read your body resistance. The usual hint this is happening is a high and unsteady reading.

Title: Re: Bad stator or regulator/rectifier?
Post by Cavi Mike on 04/27/13 at 05:14:04

Doesn't sound like anything is wrong with the battery or the charging system to me. What you need to pay attention to next time your bike won't start is the lights. If the lights don't dim at all when you press the start button, that means it has nothing to do with the battery or the charging system - you've got a bad solenoid or starter.

To find out if it's the solenoid or the starter, bridge the two large terminals on the solenoid with a screw-driver or wrench. If the bike cranks, you've got a bad solenoid. If nothing happens, you've got a bad starter.

Just be warned that it's going to make a heck of a spark when you bridge those terminals if the starter is good. 12V is nowhere near enough to harm you but big sparks tend to put people on edge.

Title: Re: Bad stator or regulator/rectifier?
Post by svenofthejungle on 04/27/13 at 08:57:01

18333A2934355B0 wrote:

I'll have to try it again, careful not to let my fingers touch metal, and report back you the numbers.

Title: Re: Bad stator or regulator/rectifier?
Post by svenofthejungle on 04/27/13 at 09:12:28

6042554A6E4A4846230 wrote:

The lights do not dim on start-up, or if they do, it's imperceptible to me when the headlight's aimed at something (in this case, a wooden fence) when I'm starting at night.

So you're saying that if I have a bad starter or solenoid (per the test you suggest), it could somehow prevent my battery from charging while the bike is running, and my alternator/rectifier/battery could be just fine?

Data point: this morning I measured the battery charge across the terminals. Bike hasn't run for about 18 hours. Reading: 12.87V, unchanged since yesterday.

Title: Re: Bad stator or regulator/rectifier?
Post by svenofthejungle on 04/27/13 at 11:23:34

More for my own later reference, but also for anyone who runs into these kinds of problems down the road, I found the r/r test thread (started by constrapolator):

How to test your Voltage Regulator-Rectifier
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1245984387

And another useful thread about issues similar to mine:
HELP! Black rectifier wire melted the connector (started by misterman1)
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1269650762

Busy day today ahead of me; can't guarantee I'll get around to any of the tests everyone suggested. Here are the current hypotheses we're testing here (two most likely first):

1. Fault in the stator. I just ordered an alternator cover gasket and will post pictures once I get a chance to look at the stator. Frayed insulation, broken or exposed wires, or excessive gunkiness will support this hypothesis. But alternator does put out power --- testing voltages at the yellow wires gives me around 100V each at RPM, so I know the alt's at least putting out juice into the r/r. But it's apparently not making it out of the r/r, so that brings me to...

2. ...fault in r/r. Possible causes: not a perfect fit on the boltholes, so it may be subject to undue vibration. Or, crappy r/r (new unit, but aftermarket). I'm getting enough juice to keep the battery at steady voltage when idling, but when I roll on the throttle, the voltage barely increases in proportion to the amount of throttle I'm laying on. I'm definitely not getting 14.something volts at 2,000rpm (but did when I first installed the new r/r). Will test both r/r's (kept the old unit) per the thread I found.

Note: I did blow a fuse when I first installed the new r/r --- but the fuse casing was cracked from something and probably hasn't been replaced in a few years, so it could have just been a bad fuse. All new fuses; haven't blown any since.

3. Fault in decomp relay box (suggested by WD): will test as directed.

4. Fault in starter or starter solenoid. (suggested by Cavi Mike) Unlikely, as the problem appears to be somewhere between the r/r and alternator; i.e. the bike starts just fine but doesn't charge like it should. Still worth looking at, since a fault in either component might be contributing to my troubles. Also, my lights definitely don't dim when I start it up, but I never did check out the lights when last my bike failed to start. Will watch out for it.

5. Dirty connectors, frayed insulation, broken wires, hot spots, and corrosion. (suggested by Oldfeller) A likely contributor, since I do live in Florida, and as much as I try to keep my bike covered (don't have a garage), it still gets rained on once in a while. Wouldn't hurt to have another go with the contact cleaner and dielectric grease on every point I can get to on the wire harness.

One or more of these can be true. (sigh) I'm willing to consider appeasing these electro-gremlins with a sacrifice. Ten broken diodes and twenty feet of frayed copper cable? Or are they the kind to demand blood?

Title: Re: Bad stator or regulator/rectifier?
Post by merpius on 04/27/13 at 11:32:52

5674637C587C7E70150 wrote:

I used to start my truck this way. :) Reach down in there with a big screwdriver, spark spark (careful not to let it get welded), vroom vroom!

Title: Re: Bad stator or regulator/rectifier?
Post by Cavi Mike on 05/01/13 at 05:50:44

2A2F3C37363F2D313C332C373E353C590 wrote:

I didn't say anything about the battery not charging. In fact I just said it sounds like your battery and charging system are fine.

I also didn't say watch your lights when you start your bike - I said watch your lights when your bike WON'T start.

I'm not going to repeat myself. Re-read my post. If you can't follow those simple instructions, I can't help you.

Title: Re: Bad stator or regulator/rectifier?
Post by svenofthejungle on 05/02/13 at 09:49:02

I apologize; I must've come off as more testy than I intended to.

Got into a bicycle accident the other day, so work's been put off until I can crouch again (sprained my ankle something fierce). Will report back when I have something.

Title: Re: Bad stator or regulator/rectifier?
Post by Serowbot on 05/02/13 at 09:59:49

Don't worry Sven,... you're not coming off as testy...
Cavi is... ;D...

Title: Re: Bad stator or regulator/rectifier?
Post by svenofthejungle on 05/03/13 at 12:20:45

Oompa doompa doopity-doo, I have another bunch of numbers for you...

:)

Wasn't able to get to some of the tests suggested, but I did clean up the contacts and greased them up generously.

My numbers:

Resting voltage of battery (fully charged, disconnected from charger for 48 hours): 13.1V
Voltage drop when key turned: 12.89V
Voltage drop when starting: 10.something V
Voltage on idle (warming up): 12.5V and rising slowly
Voltage on idle (warmed up): 12.7V give or take .1V
Voltage on ~1/3 throttle: 13.0V
Resting voltage of battery after shut-down (waited 15min to measure): 13.0V

Question: I'm measuring these voltages by wedging the probes of the multimeter into the battery terminals. Am I doing it wrong?

So the battery's holding a charge and the alt's pumping some volts into the batt. Some of the connectors were warm to the touch after this, so I cleaned them again, started the bike up again, rolled on the throttle up to about 1/2 for a few minutes, and felt them again, and they were cool. So part of my problem could have been dirty contacts. Negative frame ground cleaned again too --- it collects a lot of dirt and gunk from the road, and the rainy season's starting in Florida, so muddy oily roads.

Scratching my head, but I'll give the bike a more thorough looking-over when I have a full day to devote to it. I appreciate everyone's help so far, and their indulgence of a chucklehead like me. :)

Title: Re: Bad stator or regulator/rectifier?
Post by Digger on 05/03/13 at 21:10:39

494C5F54555C4E525F504F545D565F3A0 wrote:

....Question: I'm measuring these voltages by wedging the probes of the multimeter into the battery terminals. Am I doing it wrong?....

Nope...you are doing it correctly.

Title: Re: Bad stator or regulator/rectifier?
Post by Digger on 05/04/13 at 18:00:38

5653404B4A43514D404F504B424940250 wrote:

.....My intuition suggests it's not the alternator, even though signs suggest it might be grounding to the frame. It's putting out volts, but those volts aren't making it to the battery at a sufficient rate to charge it, which suggests anything from the wires leading from the alt to the r/r....

Sven,

If you're still suspecting those wires, check out this strange and terrible saga:

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1363989148/10#10