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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Electrical problem. She won't even try to crank /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1363771264 Message started by drivingmenuts on 03/20/13 at 02:21:03 |
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Title: Electrical problem. She won't even try to crank Post by drivingmenuts on 03/20/13 at 02:21:03 Hi folks, I'm brand new to the forum but I'm hoping someone here can help me out. I want to be as detailed as possible, so I apologize in advance for the long post. For those (like myself) who don't like reading novels online, here's the quick and dirty; 1997 LS 650 Savage. Turn the ignition to the "on" position, the headlight and taillight come on. Press the starter button and NOTHING happens. No clicking noises. No lights dimming. It's like a total disconnect between the button and the rest of the bike. Battery is good. (12.8V, Brand new, Installed correctly) Fuses are good. (I both visually inspected them, and tested continuity. There are 12v going in and out of the fuse box) Starter WILL crank when I arch the solenoid. I've taken apart the right hand switch and cleaned the contacts of the run button and starter button. They were a bit dirty, but not too bad. Put it back together, and the problem was NOT resolved. So I ordered one off Ebay. Put it on, problem still NOT solved. So, unless they are both bad switches, the right hand switch is not the problem... or maybe it is... Ok, here are the DETAILS! This bike belongs to a friend of mine, who had bought it, ridden it a few times, and then forgot about it for a year. (Tragic I know.) She had it sitting outside, with a cover on it, for a year and never winter-proofed it and never started it up periodically. She decided it was time to get back on the ole iron horse, so she charged up the battery and asked me to help her install it and get her bike going. (I spent 4 years as an apprentice mechanic at a shop, and since then have continued working on bikes in my home garage as a side gig) So I installed her battery, drained her nasty old gas from the tank and the carb, refilled the tank with fresh gas, primed the carb and tried to start her up. The engine turned over with good power, but did not start up. A few squirts of starter fluid later, and still no running bike, I pulled the spark plug and tested for a spark. NO SPARK. Ok. So I put on a new plug and tested again. Still no spark. Ok. Now I'm just hoping it's a faulty connection and not the $400 CDI box. So I pull off the tank to test the Ignition Coil with a multimeter, and I notice the right hand control/ starter push switch connector is loose where it connects to wiring harness. So I make sure it's connected properly and then (for giggles) I tested for a spark again. And I got it! Great! I put the spark plug back in, tank back on, hooked up the hoses, and tried to start the bike. Sounded like it wanted to start but just couldn't get there... tried a little starter fluid... no luck. Tried a fourth time... and nothing happened. AT ALL. The starter didn't crank at all. I could NOT hear the starter relay trying to engage. There was NO clicking like there would be if it was a drained battery. And that is the problem I'm stuck at now. My first guess was the starter push button/ right hand switch connector had become loose again. After I took the tank off again, I inspected the starter button/hand control connection, and it was securely fastened to the wiring harness. So... that was not the problem... uh oh. If someone could help me figure out what the heck is wrong in the electrical system I would greatly appreciate it. Maybe you have had this issue before? Again, turn the ignition to "on" and the lights come on, turn signals work, brake lights work, high beam/low beam works, horn works, but when i push the starter button nothing happens. YES the kill switch is in the run position, and I've tried it in both positions several million times. When I was working as an apprentice mechanic, I had a very hard time with fixing electrical issues. I still do. But, here's what I have done so far, in an attempt to solve this problem. Needless to to say, none of them have worked, or I wouldn't be posting this drawn out story! This is a list, not necessarily in order: 1) Cleaned the starter push button and kill switch contacts. (Took switch apart and cleaned contacts and sprayed with Deoxit) 2) Replaced the right hand control with a used one from Ebay 3) Cleaned and inspected EVERY electrical connection. 4) Tested fuses (they were fine) 5) Replaced fuses with new ones just to be really really sure. (Size 20A) Checked voltage coming in and out of fuse box... 12v both 6) Arched the solenoid at the two large terminals, and the starter turns over when I do this. (There are also two smaller prongs on the starter solenoid with wires that go into the wiring harness and attach to the decompression control box) 7)Bench tested the starter relay. (Hooked it up to the old battery and could hear the magnets clicking) 8) checked starter solenoid resistance (4.2 ohms) Manual says it should be between 2-6ohms, so mine is within range). 9) Bought and installed a brand new battery. (The old one dropped from 12V to 10v when I turned the ignition key to the "on" position) The new one drops from 12.8v to 12.2v (much better). 10) Performed a short circut test (0.6 ohms) not to bad right? 11) checked magneto resistance (0.9 ohms) (within range.) 12) checked pick up coil resistance (206 ohms) Manual says range is 220 + or - 20%, so 206 should be fine. 13) Decompression Solenoid resistance (1.0) fine? 14) Tested power to solenoid (12.5V) 15) Tested Solenoid (+) to Starter cable (-) (12.3v) 16) Tested Decomp solenoid as per manuals instructions; tested fine 17) Checked continuity of switches, as per manuals instructions (FINE means the multimeter read 0.00 so there was continuity; Ignition switch = fine / Sidestand switch (5.41 ohms in upright position = BAD) / Clutch safety switch = fine / Rear Brake switch = fine / Front brake switch = fine / Starter push button = fine / Run and kill switch = fine / Dimmer switch = fine / Turn signal switch = fine / Horn switch = fine. 18) Tested Ignition coil resistance (these tested BAD, which would explain why I didn't get a spark in the first place... before I had this current electrical problem. But I'm still not confident that I performed the test correctly so I'm going to do some research and test it again tomorrow.) 19) Used Jumper wires to bypass the sidestand, clutch, and front brake saftey cut offs. I WANT to bypass the neutral safety cutoff to see if that is the problem, but I don't know how. 20) Checked voltage from ignition to right hand control / wiring harness connection (11v). 21) checked voltage at kill switch button (0v) and at the starter push button (0v) and then 0.10v when I press the starter button. AHA! I think? Conclusions so far: 1) Sidestand safety switch is bad. 2) Ignition coil may be bad 3) there is no power going to the starter switch. Which sound like it's the main culprit. Questions for you experts out there: 1) WHY am I getting a reading of 0.10v at the starter push button? I pulled the coating off to look for broken wires and there were none. 2) How do I bypass the neutral safety cutoff switch? 3) I found a very tiny 3 pronged diode hidden in the wiring harness under the tank. What is this? How do I test it? And could this be the source of my problem? 4) Is there a way to test the CDI box? I don't have access to a known working one, and I don't have the "special Suzuki tester" that the manual says I need in order to test it. I've called a couple different shops and they all refuse to test it for me. They said I would have to try it with a known working one. ALSO, if the CDI box IS bad, would it be causing my symptoms? I know I wouldn't be getting a spark, but would a bad CDI box cause my other issue? 5) What's next? What am I missing? Is there some simple answer I just don't know? (Please oh please oh please) I know I just threw out of info, some of which may be unnecessary, but I figured the more thorough the better right? Thanks so much for reading it all. And any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm stuck! |
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Title: Re: Electrical problem. She won't even try to cran Post by ToesNose on 03/20/13 at 04:52:54 Hey DMN welcome to the forums, I'm sorry that it was such an issue that brought you here :( The neutral switch is basically a path to ground, you can cut the wire or I believe there is a coonector for it under the tank. But before doing this I would try to track down the problem. -Have you checked the ground wire on the engine case? This has been the cause of many mysterious electrical issues. -Also the CDI's have been know to fry their power transistor - http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1293638302/0 Thank you for spelling out all you have done and know so far, I'm sure a few more knowledgeable thumper heads will chime in today, but I couldn't let you sit without any response this morning :) |
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Title: Re: Electrical problem. She won't even try to cran Post by oldNslow on 03/20/13 at 07:22:50 http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1262917566 The link above will take you to the best explanation of how the electrical system on these bikes works that I've seen. I wish I had a simple answer for you but I don't. I'd forget about the igniton for now and concentrate on getting the starter to spin the engine. One of the small wires on the starter relay gets 12V from the decompresion controller when all the safteys are closed and the start switch is pushed. The other small wire goes to ground. Make sure you've got power there when you hit the start switch. If you don't you've got to back track from there and find out why. |
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Title: Re: Electrical problem. She won't even try to cran Post by verslagen1 on 03/20/13 at 07:27:31 Neutral light come on? if it does then neutral switch ok. if not, then could be the 3 legged diode you found. neutral switch goes to ground when in neutral, so find a single blue wired connector and short the lead from the tank to ground. The 3 legged diode prevents a short to ground from the somewhere. green connector under seat goes to side stand, short the 2 leads with a paper clip. might as well bypass the clutch safety too. I'd do one at a time checking for start inbetween. as the dred pirate roberts was faund of saying... "Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning." |
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Title: Re: Electrical problem. She won't even try to cran Post by WD on 03/20/13 at 08:14:29 Most likely the side stand switch. Do as suggested and it should fire up. The one on my 1998 model (bought brand new) lasted less than 2 months. Has been bypassed ever since without issue. |
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Title: Re: Electrical problem. She won't even try to cran Post by oldsavage on 03/20/13 at 09:09:25 I know i'm a newb and all, but when I got this LS650 savage *2002* for the wife I didn't know you had to squeeze the clutch in before it would start. I didn't see the word clutch mentioned, unless that is the neutral safety switch. So i'm not calling anyone out, just sayin', I didn't know this..... only bike i've every ridden where you have to pull in the clutch lever to start. |
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Title: Re: Electrical problem. She won't even try to cran Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/20/13 at 10:40:11 & a kill switch has bit a bunch of us. |
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Title: Re: Electrical problem. She won't even try to cran Post by Charon on 03/20/13 at 10:53:24 My non-Suzuki bikes have clutch safety switches, too, but they are wired differently. They will allow a start if the bike is in Neutral, but if the bike is in gear the clutch has to be pulled in. My two scooters have brake interlocks on the starter. Since they are automatic they have no clutch and no Neutral, so they require one or other of the brakes to be applied before the starter will work. People buy used scooters with no manuals, then ask on forums why they won't start. It is often the brake interlock. |
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Title: Re: Electrical problem. She won't even try to cran Post by oldsavage on 03/20/13 at 11:04:04 On mine, even if it is in neutral you have to squeeze the clutch in to get it to start. Is mine defective? I don't know, the mechanic that worked it before I got it said thats how these bikes worked. I've owned honda's , kawi's, yamaha's and harleys and didn't have to clutch it in neutral to start it. |
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Title: Re: Electrical problem. She won't even try to cran Post by oldNslow on 03/20/13 at 11:12:59 41424A5D4F584F494B2E0 wrote:
It's fine - supposed to work like that. |
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Title: Re: Electrical problem. She won't even try to cran Post by Charon on 03/20/13 at 11:13:23 The Suzuki bikes, at least my current LS650 and my old GR650 Tempter, require the clutch to be pulled in for a start, regardless of gear position or sidestand. And that's the way the Owner's Manual describes it, too. If it'll start without pulling the clutch, something isn't correct. |
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Title: Re: Electrical problem. She won't even try to cran Post by drivingmenuts on 03/20/13 at 12:24:06 Wow! Thanks for the quick responses! I see alot of suggestions about safety switches (such as the clutch lever or brake lever switch) being the cause of the problem. That was one of my first guesses too. So I've already bypassed all the safety switches, EXCEPT neutral because I didn't know how. But thanks ToesNose and verslagen1 for the info. I'll bypass neutral later to see if that is the culprit. (Although the neutral light does come on, so it should* be fine) And yeah I've checked and cleaned the ground wire going to the engine. I'm going to go through the schematic and check every grounding point later today. oldNslow thanks for that link! Boobert has some killer information about the Savage electrical system. I have a feeling the "side relay" he describes could be my issue... now I I just have to find it! Thanks, and I will keep posting updates. |
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Title: Re: Electrical problem. She won't even try to cran Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/20/13 at 12:57:09 Have a look at a wiring diagram. Theres a wire on the decompression controller that, when 12 V hits it, that thing Is gonna turn over. Even if the key is in your pocket, so make sure its in neutral. Thatll test the decomp controller. It wont play if its bad. |
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Title: Re: Electrical problem. She won't even try to cran Post by rfw2003 on 03/20/13 at 13:56:27 5A454344595E6F5F6F57454902300 wrote:
that there is, also if the decomp controller fails in a certain way it won't allow the starter circuit to work either. R.F. |
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Title: Re: Electrical problem. She won't even try to cran Post by JRLeathercraft on 03/20/13 at 14:03:13 This might sound crazy - but how old is the battery? Try giving it a charge. Jay |
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Title: Re: Electrical problem. She won't even try to cran Post by DavidOfMA on 03/20/13 at 22:15:48 2B20232036202A28410 wrote:
OP says he bought and installed a new battery: Quote:
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Title: Re: Electrical problem. She won't even try to cran Post by drivingmenuts on 03/22/13 at 00:56:48 Yes!!!! I finally got the bike to turn over! Turns out my problem was the "side stand relay" which is on the left side of the bike, near the horn and ignition coil. I had originally disregarded it because I'd assumed it was a turn signal relay. But thanks to people's advice, and Bobberts thorough run down of the electrical system, I realized it was actually a safety relay that supplies power directly to the kill switch. AND I fixed it by accident... I took it off to check for continuity, and at first I had a bad reading. THEN i dropped it. Checked it again, and the reading was good! I guess that drop knocked some things into place. Lessons learned: 1) Don't assume you know what a component is. ALWAYS refer to a good wiring diagram. 2) Give your relays a tap or two before tearing into the harness and pulling your hair out. Next steps: Put the ignition cap back on and test for a spark. If I get a good spark, I will take out my jumper wires used to bypass the safety switches, one by one, and keep checking to make sure it all works. Then start her up, tune her up, and hand her back over to what will be a very happy girl. ;D |
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Title: Re: Electrical problem. She won't even try to cran Post by ToesNose on 03/23/13 at 04:08:46 Glad to hear you resolved the problem before pulling all your hair out ;D |
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Title: Re: Electrical problem. She won't even try to cran Post by drivingmenuts on 03/25/13 at 19:10:27 Ok, got the starter to turn over, and checked for a spark... no spark. Progress... but more tests needed! Ah. |
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Title: Re: Electrical problem. She won't even try to cran Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/26/13 at 07:25:54 When you get this thing going, you Should get the Full ON "Knight in Shining Armor who saved the damsel in distress" thank you. |
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Title: Re: Electrical problem. She won't even try to cran Post by drivingmenuts on 04/05/13 at 18:39:47 Ok, I'm stuck. I'm not getting a spark. Tested the ignition coil and it's within specs and is receiving 12V. The pickups tested within spec. I'm afraid the problem is the terribly expensive TCI box. Before I go buying one, I want to be sure. Is there anyone in the San Francisco area that would be willing to let me swap their good TCI box with my potentially bad one? Will only take 30 seconds. I'll buy you a beer? Give you a few bucks? Any takers? :-/ |
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Title: Re: Electrical problem. She won't even try to cran Post by drivingmenuts on 04/05/13 at 18:41:44 Oh, and of course by "swap" I don't mean swap forever. I mean I want to put your good TCI box on my bike and see if my bike gets a spark. Then I will give you back your box. ;D |
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Title: Re: Electrical problem. She won't even try to cran Post by drivingmenuts on 04/20/13 at 20:50:56 Ok. I went through all the electric, AGAIN, and I had a feeling my no spark issue was a faulty TCI box. Luckily I found one on Ebay for $40!! Put it in and and I got a spark. I hate being right all the time... ;D NEW PROBLEM: I got her running, all tuned up and ready to ride. I checked the charging system and it's fine (charges at 14V) And then I noticed the gas leak. When the bike is running, gas POURS out of the air box breather hose. (The one dangling under the battery box, with the removable cap) Opened up the air box and it's totally dry. No gas in the air box. I'm hoping this is some kind of hose routing issue, as I'd rather not pull the carb. Anyone familiar with this? |
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Title: Re: Electrical problem. She won't even try to cran Post by savagerider87 on 04/21/13 at 05:42:55 Im gonna say its the clutch switch.... had the same problem with mine, try jumping it with a piece of wire and it might just fire up. Good luck |
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Title: Re: Electrical problem. She won't even try to cran Post by savagerider87 on 04/21/13 at 05:47:03 4E454F41404B4B240 wrote:
ok ignore my last reply, sounds like a stuck needle valve in the carb try tapping on the side of the carb lightly, but if that doesn't help youll have to give it a good cleaning |
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