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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Transmission Gremlins- seriously frustrated /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1351109211 Message started by dmj13 on 10/24/12 at 13:06:51 |
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Title: Transmission Gremlins- seriously frustrated Post by dmj13 on 10/24/12 at 13:06:51 Okay, so I got a 2009 S40, JUST rolled over 4000 miles. Has a Jardine muffler, Uni foam filter, and the following carb adjustments from Lancer's jet set: 3 washers in place of white spacer, 55 pilot and 155 main. I KNOW I went way too far jetting it that much. I could smell it, and the air mix screw was turned all the way in. Improved but still present backfire on hard decel. Now also some poofing from the exhaust on shut off. Runs great with half choke, but I gotta keep the idle turned (what seems like) way up to keep it from dying on downshifts when I'm not giving a little throttle to even it out. So I know I got that all jacked up, and I'm open to suggestions. Pretty much resigned to swapping things out unitl I find the right mix. Oh, and still trying to plug the leaks from the header/muffler connection. Argh. THIS IS THE BIG PROBLEM: Met up with two buddies to go riding in Hill Country today. Looking forward to this ride all week. Get twenty miles in, cruising a steady 70-80, suddenly feel like something "went". I honestly thought a hose had come off the carb or burst or something- very hard to explain. But I'm suddenly out of gear. Engine running, throttle works, but gas no go. Downshifted and upshifted, no joy, eventually coasted to the side. Two buddies with fuel injected bikes stand and stare at it with me for a few minutes (not very helpful). No leaks, no bust hoses, no fuel pouring out. Start it up (did not want to start) get on the road, everything is good then 15 minutes and Bam. All over again. I do this again, then limp home with no issues at under 50mph. W. T. F? I have theorized this has something to do with heat???? Maybe I'm running hot and rich, oil heats up, something in the tranny/clutch screws up. Bike sits for a minute, cools down, works fine until I'm running fast and hot again then repeats? I'm fairly comfortable turning wrenches. This bike is not that complicated, but I don't know too much about the tranny and clutch. Anyone got any great ideas? Just tell me how I jacked this bike up so I can fix it and ride before it gets cold! |
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Title: Re: Transmission Gremlins- seriously frustrated Post by Dave on 10/24/12 at 13:18:17 OK...you have me confused. Did the engine stop running.....or did the transmission stop working? |
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Title: Re: Transmission Gremlins- seriously frustrated Post by dmj13 on 10/24/12 at 13:20:30 Engine kept running, but felt like I had the clutch pulled in. Out of gear. Would not go into gear from 5th all the way down to first. |
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Title: Re: Transmission Gremlins- seriously frustrated Post by Dave on 10/24/12 at 13:27:02 They only thing I believe could have affected all the gears is the clutch. Do you have proper free play in the cable to allow the clutch to be fully engaged? You should be able to move the clutch lever just a bit before it tightens up the cable - you need a small amount of slack. |
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Title: Re: Transmission Gremlins- seriously frustrated Post by dmj13 on 10/24/12 at 13:30:43 Yep, checked the clutch cable. All looks good. I just don't know what the hell is going on... I feel like it is realted to my recent rejetting, just because of timing, but I'm stretching for a connection. The bike only has 4000 miles on it, so I've got a short list of things that could have worn out already.... Fluids all done at 2300 by previous owner. |
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Title: Re: Transmission Gremlins- seriously frustrated Post by verslagen1 on 10/24/12 at 13:48:58 If I read this right (Engine running, throttle works, but no go) you're clutch is slipping when hot. Check the clutch lever on the tranny next to the oil fill window. There are 2 lines on the case that it should be in between. Is it towards the bottom? I think you need to take off the clutch cover and swap out the clutch rod for a shorter one. I'm thinking that the rod is getting hot and growing enough to bottom out on the cover. They make 3 lengths, each 1mm different in length. Take the cover off and measure how much the pin sticks out. If I remember correctly should be 12.5mm 13mm will bottom out on the cover. |
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Title: Re: Transmission Gremlins- seriously frustrated Post by LANCER on 10/24/12 at 14:02:20 Start by making sure the exhaust is air tight to eliminate that issue. Replace the pilot and main jets with the 52.5 & 152.5 jets. Set the pilot air screw @ 2.5 turns out. Double check the float level to eliminate that as a possible issue. Install new plug. Test ride and report results. |
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Title: Re: Transmission Gremlins- seriously frustrated Post by oldNslow on 10/24/12 at 14:16:52 I'm thinking verslagen1 is likely right about the clutch rod but I'll put in my 2 cents worth anyhow. You said you were riding in the hills at a steady 70-80 for a while. Is this the first time you've ridden the bike that hard for this long ? If so, and the clutch rod turns out to be not the issue, I'd be looking at the oil. Maybe when the PO changed it he put in some energy conserving car stuff. The additives they put in that oil don't work well with wet clutches. You're gonna have to change it anyway after you take the clutch cover off. Make sure you replace it with something reccomended for motorcycle engines. |
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Title: Re: Transmission Gremlins- seriously frustrated Post by dmj13 on 10/24/12 at 14:51:06 versalgen1: I haven't checked it yet, but your theory syncs with my common sense answer- heat is the culprit. If rod is at the margin, do I order just the next size down? Or go all the way to the shortest length? And will there be a corresponding clutch cable adjustment? Lancer: Thanks much. I know what I'm doing the next couple of days. I guess "If it's worth doing it's worth over doing" may not apply when jetting carbs... oldNslow: Not my first time running the bike like that, but first time in this location (San Antonio). Previously in Birmingham, Al. Not sure of sea level changes, but hot and humid is hot and humid. Although today was a pretty nice day. Which is why I'm so upset to lose it to mechanical failure!!! >:( Thanks all, at least I have a direction to head in. I appreciate the help and will report back when I fix it or break it some more. |
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Title: Re: Transmission Gremlins- seriously frustrated Post by verslagen1 on 10/24/12 at 15:17:08 323B3C6765560 wrote:
There are 3 lengths, can't tell you which one you got, they're cheap, so buy all 3 and be ready. If you want a different option, (I'm trying it, but haven't had it apart yet to confirm) full hard tool pins may work, Ų1/4" x 1.5" ground to the correct length, don't over heat. I know drill rod don't work, they just wear out. Had problems with the drill rod in less than 1k miles. Had the tool pin in over 5k miles so I think it's ok, still need to inspect. |
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Title: Re: Transmission Gremlins- seriously frustrated Post by Oldfeller on 10/24/12 at 16:14:31 versalgen1: I haven't checked it yet, but your theory syncs with my common sense answer- heat is the culprit. If rod is at the margin, do I order just the next size down? Or go all the way to the shortest length? And will there be a corresponding clutch cable adjustment? Verslagen is leading you in the right direction -- follow his instructions and POST BACK WHEN YOU COMPLETE WHAT HE TELLS YOU TO DO. Versy, when you get his clutch rod right find out what oil he is using -- he should not have "heat related" anything using the modern synthetic recommended oils. And yet just this past week we see a guy cooking a piston due to varnished up stuck rings and a clutch rod misbehaving due to "heat" while running at full speed ????? |
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Title: Re: Transmission Gremlins- seriously frustrated Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/12 at 16:37:38 If the clutch lever has no slack once everything gets warmed up,, you need to put more slack in the cable |
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Title: Re: Transmission Gremlins- seriously frustrated Post by youzguyz on 10/25/12 at 03:56:02 My opinion, go for the things that are easy and don't open up the engine first. What JOG said about the cable. Check it when the engine is hot. What OldNSlow said about the oil. Maybe the wrong stuff was put in there, maybe it has broken down from the heat. Changing it out with the "right stuff" (Does he need to do anything to clean the clutch plates? Can he do it chemically without opening up?) Then call me, and let's go ride them hills!!! (I ride 'em every weekend, I know all the roads worth riding. I live north central SA (1604/Buverde Rd)) :D |
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Title: Re: Transmission Gremlins- seriously frustrated Post by dmj13 on 10/25/12 at 05:33:25 Yeah, I slept on it and agree with you, youzguyz. I'm going to start by rejetting the carb correctly (hopefully today or tomorrow) and doing an oil change. The clutch lever is on the low end, but I'm not experienced enough with it to know what "on the edge" looks like. I will post a pic in a bit and maybe someone can tell me different. Once I get the carb/exhaust sorted and change the oil, my plan is to go for a ride and see if I can recreate the problem. If it doesn't come back I'll assume it was a heat issue from running too rich. If it comes back... well, I limped home once, right? Anyone got an opinion on whether I risk doing any major damage trying that? With potentially over heating parts like that I'm a little concerned about metal fatigue...? Or am I being paranoid? justin_o_guy: all cables are good. Cables and hoses were my first checks when it happened the first time. I was REALLY disappointed they were not the issue. Woulda been easy, then. |
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Title: Re: Transmission Gremlins- seriously frustrated Post by dmj13 on 10/25/12 at 05:35:17 Oh, and youzguyz, I'm down in Southtown. This place is hopping on First Fridays if you haven't seen it! |
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Title: Re: Transmission Gremlins- seriously frustrated Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/25/12 at 06:14:07 We can hope,, woulda been so easy if it was too tite. |
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Title: Re: Transmission Gremlins- seriously frustrated Post by dmj13 on 10/25/12 at 06:15:36 If anyone is following this and slightly confused on the concept of the pushrod (as I am-was-am...) I found this in the tech section. Takes some focus to follow it all, but it is good info. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1270678838/0#0 I should be studying Chemistry and Physiology... instead devoting brain power to pushrods and carbs.... |
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Title: Re: Transmission Gremlins- seriously frustrated Post by Oldfeller on 10/25/12 at 11:44:14 Yep, easy rule of thumb is that to lower the chrome lever (return the adjustment range back into the system) you use a longer pushrod. Your goal is to get inside the lines on the case marks using the top side of the chrome lever as your pointer, remembering to lift up on the rod with a rubber band in order to take all of the considerable slack out of the system. Verslagen is ASSuMEing that your pushrod (or the entire clutch pack) is overheating and growing in length, giving you functionally a "too long" pushrod. I still ask the question, what the frick oil are you using to permit your engine to get that hot in the first place? Are you using a good list approved synthetic oil and are you using the list oil level checking method? Both things could help with that overheating thing you say is going on. Questions for you to answer: Where is your chrome lever pointing right now vs the case marks? How far do you have to pull in on the clutch lever to disengage the clutch (engine running, bike moving and in gear)? How far do you have to let it out from all the way in to begin to engage the clutch? (engine running, bike stopped, in gear) Do these engagement points change when your engine starts to get "hot"? Me, I'm not sure what is wrong with your bike actually, but your answering these questions may help everybody understand better by giving some reference points, |
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Title: Re: Transmission Gremlins- seriously frustrated Post by dmj13 on 10/26/12 at 07:27:41 Picture below shows the clutch lever as the bike sits cold and not running. http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag130/dmarckjr/434_10101683981459500_1952869916_n.jpg As far as the clutch cable adjustment, sitting cold there is very little slack in the cable, clutch starts to engage almost right away. Which isn't right. I should have some play, right? As far as when it is warm, I can't tell you. I haven't ridden it since I got back from the malfunction trip. I do not recall anything way out of whack at the time, though. I know I inspected all the cables when it happened, but thinking back I was so pissed off at the situation and having to be THAT GUY holding up my group on the side of the road that I can't honestly say I was making clear assessments. I DO check these things on a regular basis. I've totalled a bike and almost destroyed my military career (through injury) in an accident, and I tend to be incredibly paranoid when it comes to riding. But, roght now I'm starting to doubt myself quite a bit... As for oil: I got the bike on a trade from a dealer. One previous owner, 2300 and change on the speedo. Oil change was recorded in the manual, but dealer did not have the actual record. The oil looked good, did not smell burnt, and it hasn't burned ANY since I got it. So I ASSUMED it was good (I know, I know.... shoulda changed it myself to know.) PO was first time rider who only put 2300 on it in three years of ownership- I have no idea if correct oil was put in. I got a feeling I'm gonna end up feeling like a jackass by the time this is figured out. Assumption is the mother of all F-ups.... |
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Title: Re: Transmission Gremlins- seriously frustrated Post by verslagen1 on 10/26/12 at 08:21:04 4A43441F1D2E0 wrote:
Yep the lack of slack is what whacked ya. About 1/8" at the lever, and check full travel of the bars. Even more slack is fine as long as the clutch is fully disengaged with the lever fully pulled in. Not unusual for the slack to disapear when the cable is flexed. |
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Title: Re: Transmission Gremlins- seriously frustrated Post by dmj13 on 11/04/12 at 09:13:25 Okay, took me long enough, but completed rejet to 52.5 pilot and 152.5 main. Left the three washers as is on the needle. At two turns out idling in parking lot. Sounds good, no backfire when revving it stationary. Also swapped in a new iridium plug. Exhaust sealed, finally. I ended up using JB weld on the end of the Jardine, sanding it to fit after it set, and then sealing the leading edge with JB Weld as well. Wrapped it in metallic exhaust tape and secured that with metal zip ties. I have a heat shield to make it pretty. No leaks sitting still. Clutch cable readjusted. I have about half an inch play at the end of the lever, before the cable started pulling the clutch lever, per the manual. Thats an eyeball measurement. I'll adjust on the fly if needed. Oil changed with the Redline brand I saw reccomended on this site. As I understood it has enough ZDDP already so I DID NOT add anything to it. Also a new K and N oil filter. Gonna go for a ride here in a bit. Here's hoping! 8-) |
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Title: Re: Transmission Gremlins- seriously frustrated Post by dmj13 on 11/04/12 at 13:59:15 Okay, so apparently JB Weld does not do well with high temps. The bike ran fantastic for the first 15 minutes, no backfires, no pops, clutch acting normal- then I smelled burning epoxy and looked down at my muffler/header connection smoking like crazy. When it started leaking, the backfiring started again. So, my initial big problem- the wierd tranny/clutch issue, has gone away and I'm back to dealing with backfires again. I did discover today that a guy I work with has a welder at his place, so I'm probably just taking it over there sometime thisweek to try and fix it up that way. Thanks for the help on the first issue, everyone. It seems to be resolved! |
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