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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1345820468 Message started by Oldfeller on 08/24/12 at 08:01:08 |
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Title: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Oldfeller on 08/24/12 at 08:01:08 I was asked by Groupus why nobody had ever raised the issue of the stock vac petcock being a piece of shite. "My goodness !!" sez I "Perhaps we need another petcock war as none of the current crop of newbies has ever seen nor read that the Suzuki Savage Stock Vac Petcock Is A Piece of Shite". (amazing, ain't it) I will quote the illustrious Serowbot's Axiom: 1/3 of the people have already had issues with the POS vac petcock 1/3 of the people will soon have an issue with the POS vac petcock 1/3 of the people (who ride bone stock and rather slowly) will never have an issue with the POS vac petcock because they never go past half throttle, ever. If you want to raise the odds of having an issue with your vac petcock to NEAR CERTAINTY LEVELS -- just put a low resistance air filter system on your bike. It will make your bike run better by lowering your air intake resistance (which is another way of saying "lower your system's input vacuum level" and thereby making sure your vac sucker will screw up on you). Or, you can simply wait. Somewhere between 7-15 years of use and ALL FIVE of the KNOWN VAC PETCOCK FAILURE MODES will come in turn to sit on your shoulder one right after another and shite a streak down the back of your leather jacket. Me, I think vac petcocks should be removed as soon as they are seen on anybody's bike in order to keep from damaging your engine. You see, when you have those little "trucking along at a good speed and suddenly the bike chokes off and dies on me" episodes you are leaning out your engine mightily during the protracted choking and coughing and dyeing, which does some minor progressive damage to your piston. :-? But some of you don't learn, and keep on doing it for years ..... So, what can be done about these piece of shite stock petcocks? They are nothing but trouble, you know. So how can YOU overcome your "barriers to intelligent action" and DO something about your evil vac sucker? Denial isn't a long term option (although oil consumption and piston slap is, apparently) ;D Let the festivities begin ...... |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Cavi Mike on 08/24/12 at 08:29:06 Maybe there should be a link when you register on the forum that takes you to a page with all of the must-reads like oil suggestions, petcock issues, tire fitments etc. Then, when people keep making threads about these issues they can just be locked and the user warned to RTFM. And by the way, I haven't even fired up my bike yet and I went with the Raptor petcock. I have read more than enough on here about the hassles with the stock unit to be bothered with it. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by rfw2003 on 08/24/12 at 08:36:53 The raptor petcock mod was the first thing I did to mine. I actually ordered mine before I had even taken delivery of the bike, because of all the research I did on this forum before buying mine used. R.F. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Dave on 08/24/12 at 08:37:59 OF I made the switch to the Raptor Petcock not because I was having trouble....but I like rocking it "Old School" and want to avoid potential trouble. The less that I have to go wrong....the better I feel about it. I am seriously considering getting rid of my kickstand safety switch and clutch switch for the same reason. They work fine right now - but I hope this is a bike that I keep riding for the next 15-20 years....who knows? Perhaps we (somebody) should make a sticky that is a "SAVAGE PRIMER COURSE" for the new members to read before they start jumping off to the other threads. It could include the basic maintenance and reliability issues (petcock, cam chain tensioner, oil, idle speed, etc.). I know that the Index you put in the Technical Section helps someone to find help when they know what their problem is....but maybe it would help if we had an introduction to the bike that explains the common strengths and weaknesses of this bike. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by verslagen1 on 08/24/12 at 10:08:32 18232E3928243F39222A27384B0 wrote:
Here... pour your heart out... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=RubberSideDown |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Charon on 08/24/12 at 10:15:15 Vacuum petcocks have been around on countless motorcycles and scooters for at least thirty years. If they are so problematical, why have there never been any recalls or notifications from the NTSB about them? They are even common on two-stroke 50 cc scooters, which run pretty much all the time at wide-open throttle, and on which crankcase vacuum seems to keep them open well enough. The claim that one-third of people with vacuum petcocks have had problems comes from a self-selected and skewed database. Of the total Savage/S40 motorcycles produced, only a fairly small proportion are on this board (Yes, I know that is an unprovable statement.). Only those with problems ever bother to post about them. You seldom see a post that says "My vacuum petcock works fine and has done so all the years I have owned this motorcycle." In any case the "problem" of the vacuum petcock is slowly going away, as more and more motorcycles are going with fuel injection. Of course, then there will be complaints about failing electric fuel pumps. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Oldfeller on 08/24/12 at 12:39:04 VOTE FOR AS MANY AS FIT YOUR SITUATION Here is a new poll to help answer Charon's request for fresh "current" information. Here is the link to the last poll taken. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1286789339 ================ And just for Charon, in thanks for his raising the question of vac petcock recalls :D https://www.google.com/search?q=vacuum+petcock+recall&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=ubuntu&channel=fs and here are the service notices/service bulletins http://www.google.com/search?q=vacuum+petcock+service+notices&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by youzguyz on 08/24/12 at 13:57:25 My votes clarified: Thumper: Had high speed cut outs as the only petcock related issue. I promise that it was petcock related as I performed various WTF tests, long before the magic post of how to test was whelped. Mad Hamish: Just did it because I like how much easier it is to get the tank off. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Cavi Mike on 08/24/12 at 18:16:37 1C373E2D30315F0 wrote:
You're confusing safety with tenure. Vac petcocks exist to prevent fuel spills from a stuck float and for no other reason. Obviously you're never gonna see a safety recall on something that is a safety measure unless it stops being safe. The more complicated you make something, the sooner it will fail. When it's tied to the most complicated system on the the bike, the more difficult it will be to diagnose the problem. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by ZAR on 08/24/12 at 18:43:50 I voted the "have stock petcock and never had a problem". Now I know that may bring Mr. Murphy knocking on my back door at 3:00am tomorrow night,but for now everything is smooth as silk Sherlock. Mine's a 1996 with exhaust and jetting work. Just under 12,000 miles,3400 of those put on by me in the last 3 months and running 60-70 mph and mostly 45 miles at time. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by SALB on 08/24/12 at 20:21:11 Does "struggle to stay running" apply when the ambient temperature is under 40 degrees? ::) I voted no problem, but plan on getting a raptor to replace the vacuum when it goes bad (or I get tired of cussing it taking the tank off). |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Digger on 08/24/12 at 20:47:11 5F747D6E73721C0 wrote:
Perhaps we have a situation here of, "Not all vacuum operated petcocks are created equal." Maybe ours happen to made by a low quality vendor...... |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Boofer on 08/24/12 at 22:08:25 First off, I don't know what an Axiom is, but I can assure you I did not sit on Serowbot's. ;D I experienced a GAS STARVATION problem. I went through the petcock and saw nothing wrong. Tank clean. Clamps in place on all hoses. Opened up carb...nothing there, either. I don't exactly remember how it came up, but someone here recommended the Raptor. Now I did my homework (and mechanic work). This is not my first time around a bike and being assured it was a good fit at a savings of at least 60% from stock I tried it. I'm sorry it doesn't suit some people on here, but I have had NO FUEL STARVATION problems since. Serowbot says he has had problems with rubber caps degrading, but I bought a pack at Auto Zone and used them. After thousands of miles I have no problem with that, either. Now Serowbot just reported what happened to him. He didn't go off on a rant and say I was a victim of "Raptor paronoia". Or call anyone stupid for using rubber caps. Thanks Bot, Vers, and some of the other experienced guys who take into account as many factors as possible before they give advice. And thanks for those who honestly try to help. It is appreciated. IF you need a Raptor or just WANT one be aware that you can go further before hitting reserve and shorter afterwards--and it is MANUAL. Yamaha part number 5LP-24500-01-00. Mine was $25. :) |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Boofer on 08/24/12 at 22:17:03 Dave, I just went back over some posts, and I totally disagree with disconnecting the kickstand safety. I know of at least one guy who left his down and broke a leg in his first left hand curve. I am NOT fussing. But I want you to be safe. Sticking the kick into asphalt at speed is similar to running over a golf ball at full lean in a curve. Again, not fussing. Just think about it. And now, on to Petcock Wars. :) |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Oldfeller on 08/24/12 at 22:50:16 https://www.google.com/search?q=vacuum+petcock+recall&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=ubuntu&channel=fs Anybody recognize our little vac unit in this ugly police line up of recalled criminal vac petcocks ..... ugly bunch of little vacsuckers, ain't they? http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2008/04/04/honda-recalls-vt600-vt750-vtx1300/ http://forums.midatlanticxriders.com/index.php?topic=91.0 http://www.hdforums.com/forum/fuel-carb-related/10344-vacuum-fuel-petcock-recall.html http://xs650temp.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=General&action=display&thread=10331 http://www.hondashadow.net/forum/72-technical-discussion/116970-any-vt600-owners-experience-fuel-leak-issue-recall.html http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php?topic=18092.0 http://forums.ninja250.org/posting.php?mode=topicreview&t=84866&tro=1 Now this last thingie with the paperclip on it is a leetle tricky -- click on it and save it to your desktop, then rename it from .zip to .pdf, then it will open into the VERY MOST INTERESTING recall notice Routy or Charon has ever ever read. (it involves a US Government recall for FIRE and risk of BURNING MOTORCYCLES due to the vac petcock unit's diaphragm actively dribbling gasoline on a hot engine !!!!) .... now where the heck have I ever heard that around here ??? ;D |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by wambr on 08/24/12 at 23:42:17 although I voted for Had "poor running issues" that were petcock I myself managed (with your help, sorry guys, I do not remember, who explained to me the problem, but I'd be very grateful!) the essence of my problem was hidden in the spring plate in the fuel valve which is mostly for the "PRI" I just deleted it and put instead brass washer. now I have does not work "PRI" :(, but the engine does not feel poor fuel at high speed :) |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/24/12 at 23:47:06 Wambr, Not having a "Prime" function could really be a problem., You Can overcome it by creating a vacuum on the vacuum line to the petcock. If I had no Prime function, I would carry a large syringe with me, so I could pull the vacuum line off the engine & force the petcock to deliver gas to the carb. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Oldfeller on 08/25/12 at 05:46:15 Early Morning Sense of Humor Syndrome Yeah, it's funny now, but later on in the week all them questions about exactly how to hook up the turkey baster to the new suction line are really gonna drag the joke down a lot. Besides, it was an ear cleaning kit rubber suction bulb and all it did was teach me that vacsuckers leaked vaccum down slowly AND that they didn't always shut the gas off when the vac ended. Sounds like what he did was a form of Bobo mod (a kudge way to get towards a Raptor before Raptors ATVs were invented) because he has no ready access to spare parts. Same situation Bobo had, there simply wasn't anything else available. :D |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Routy on 08/25/12 at 06:04:26 Quote: And by the way, I haven't even fired up my bike yet and I went with the Raptor petcock. I have read more than enough on here about the hassles with the stock unit to be bothered with it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A perfect example of the "petcok paranoia" that has been set into this forum by OF ! And then for him....of all people to conduct a poll that proves nothing except that most those who have raptorized, did so from pure paranoia only, having never had any problem w/ the vac petcok whatsoever. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Oldfeller on 08/25/12 at 06:14:12 Cheap Chinese LONG DROP PETCOCK for $16 shipped http://www.ebay.com/itm/Right-Hand-Suzuki-LTZ-400-LTZ400-Fuel-Gas-Petcock-Pet-thingy-Valve-Tank-ATV-/380446195730?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item58945c4012&vxp=mtr http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Right-Hand-Suzuki-LTZ-400-LTZ400-Fuel-Gas-Petcock-Pet-thingy-Valve-Tank-ATV-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqJHJDYE-8ydmlv6BP07dz)VzQ~~60_12.JPG Looks like folks have started peddling the Chinese rip-off of the long shank Raptor petcock fairly cheaply -- of course somebody has to actually order one and try it out before we will all KNOW it fits up properly. Watch out, they are saying it has a RIGHT HAND gas nipple location which would be correct, depending on if you really are standing beside the left side of the bike looking straight on to the side of the tank. :D Still, $16 with shipping is a lot better than Yamaha pricing of $24 with $7 shipping on top of that. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by wambr on 08/25/12 at 06:19:54 554A4C4B5651605060584A460D3F0 wrote:
thank you JOG2, as I do, when I need to drain the fuel from the fuel tank vent a little earlier I wrote somewhere about this, but I do not remember in what post |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by bill67 on 08/25/12 at 06:32:37 Wambr do you have 100% gasoline in Russia. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Oldfeller on 08/25/12 at 06:33:22 Routy, good to see you !!! I thought you were gonna miss the party and I was gonna be all disappointed. Let's get you up to speed so you don't have to waste time reading all the pooka again. ===================== Charon took up for the stock vacsucker and he brought up the fact no recalls had been issued. This turned out not to be the case and there is a .pdf upthread of a US GOVERNMENT recall on a vacsucker for starting FIRES and BURNING MOTORCYCLES. Ain't that loverly? Plus he brought up the thought of SERVICE BULLETINS and low and behold there are some of those too. And a long list of different bikes and their vacsucker issues thereto. Vacsuckers suck, all over the place they suck -- and they do like to burn bikes occasionally. ====================== Currently the poll response shows a shift from all the previous polls which all seemed to hang around 1/3,1/3, 1/3 -- now it is coming in at a 50-50 level. This is likely a function of age, the bike population is getting older and more wrinkly diaphragms are hitting the splits with simple age. ====================== Verslagen is faltering, he has had to answer too too too many "it won't run right" newbie questions in the last year. His last words were to say the vacsucker was "insideous" in all the various and different ways it could show it's arse. ====================== $16 bucks "shipped to your door" Chinese long drop Raptor imitations have been discovered on EBAY. As to whether they fit right or not, that remains to be seen. ====================== Bill is finally here. We can start the shooting and bombing now ....... ====================== Don yer Kevlar underwear boys, it's PETCOCK WAR time again !!! |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Charon on 08/25/12 at 06:36:06 So, with all the failure links, you are trying to say: 1. ALL vacuum petcocks will eventually fail, some in insidious ways. 2. NO manual petcocks will ever fail, in any way at all. 3. ALL vacuum petcocks should immediately be replaced with manual petcocks. Did I summarize it correctly? You do realize there are an awful lot of scooters out there with vacuum petcocks, and no other controls whatsoever in their fuel systems. There is no reserve (they use actual gas gauges) , no manual on/off control, and no PRIME. If the carburetor is dry, one cranks the engine until fuel makes its way to the carb. Where is the manual system going to go? |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Oldfeller on 08/25/12 at 06:55:50 No, I didn't say that -- you did. Did a pretty good job of it though. :D If I were going to generalize over ALL PETCOCKS I would say that the weak link in the concept is the thin rubber diaphragm element -- it has gasoline on one side and vacuum on the other and it lacks the ability to keep the two separated forever. Getting specific to our own Suzuki Savage vacsucker, I would say if you had a bone stock bike and ran the stock air filter setup you would greatly increase your odds of having few to no problems over 10-15 years. But the rub there is simple time, eventually the stiffness, the crack or the split will come to end your happy party. Two elements are prone to this time disease, one is the vac hose itself and the other is the thin diaphragm itself. I don't think you are going to get mebbe 5 years out of that original OEM thin wall vac hose before you get a crack or split near the clamp ends. Mod your bike's intake track for low air resistance though, and you unbalance the equation of happiness towards the "low intake suction" side. Increase your gas consumption by performance mods and you unbalance the equation towards the "low gas delivery" side. Do both together at the same time and you write yourself an occasional "out of gas" stop by the roadside .... PS -- use some E10 alky gas in a pre-96 model and you run the risk of having some of the rubber parts in there that were never spec'd for alky gas and they might not like it too well. So, take our percentage of performance modded bikes and roughly compare it to the percentage of vacsucker reported issues. Might be some sort of correlation there ..... mebbe. I do think that on the newer bikes, that we are doing it to ourselves chasing that extra 10 hp that Suzuki won't give us. and how did I do for "fair and balanced reporting" this time? ;D $16 on EBAY --- an end to your vacsucker pain and suffering http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Right-Hand-Suzuki-LTZ-400-LTZ400-Fuel-Gas-Petcock-Pet-thingy-Valve-Tank-ATV-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqJHJDYE-8ydmlv6BP07dz)VzQ~~60_12.JPG |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Charon on 08/25/12 at 08:00:26 Actually, my contention all along has been that relatively few vacuum petcocks fail. But those which do get a disproportionate amount of attention, partly because of forums like this. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Oldfeller on 08/25/12 at 08:18:11 Ah, proportionately .... So, on this forum we have a perhaps a 50%-ish sampling of this weeks current list readers (large enough to be a representative sampling of this weeks readers anyway) responding to the poll at the top of the thread. The poll is saying half of the ones responding have had vac petcock issues of some sort on a Suzuki Savage. Serrowbot's Axiom from long ago was 1/3 have had issues, 1/3 will have issues, 1/3 will never have issues. Over time though, the first 2 of the 1/3s will become real, making 2/3 will have had issues. I think we are up to the 50% range now, looking to top off around 60% over a few more years. But then, as the numbers slowly bump past 60% and the long term results of starving your engine for gas become more apparent, we might just start getting pro-active and start yanking those evil vac suckers off of there before they can strand us by the roadside or damage our engines (or set us on fire ???). ::) How's that for a future pathway to public safety ??? ;D |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by bill67 on 08/25/12 at 08:56:41 Had many motorcycles over a lot of year.No petcock ever failed.If it did I would replace it with what came on it,Suzuki knows whats best. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by wambr on 08/25/12 at 11:16:28 22292C2C7677400 wrote:
I don't understand your question.... excuse me... |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by rfw2003 on 08/25/12 at 11:19:37 5E48444B5B290 wrote:
I don't understand your question.... excuse me...[/quote] He's wondering if they are putting alcohol in your fuel, or if it's 100% petro |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Serowbot on 08/25/12 at 11:52:35 It's nothing more than hyped up, scary, myth... until it happens to you... I've purchased about 10 Savages, most bought for resale... Several sellers had spent many hundreds of dollars at dealerships getting carb and engine work that wasn't needed, and didn't fix the bike, because of undiagnosed petcock failure... My first Savage, the one I still ride now, was bought with a leaky petcock diaphragm.. it took me weeks to find it... (This was before the Raptor info existed, and before I was on this site)... If you want to keep the stock petcock,... test it first, at the first sign of any running issue... (Not saying that will be the problem, but just to rule it out)... If you never want to deal with the problem,... get a Raptor... A manual petcock fails in different way than a vacuum petcock... When the seals wear, a slow fuel weep starts from the petcock lever,.. that is the only way they ever fail, unless you break it off in a crash.. repair is 5 min. and $4... The stocker will fool you into thinking a dozen different things, and will cause engine damage, and possible fire, while you try to figure it out.. This is not a safety feature, as many assume it to be (even most pro mechanics).. It is a convenience feature to make a bike start-up more similar to a car... |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by wambr on 08/25/12 at 12:07:00 293D2C696B6B685B0 wrote:
I don't understand your question.... excuse me...[/quote] He's wondering if they are putting alcohol in your fuel, or if it's 100% petro[/quote] I can't say that in Russia's petrol-is it really gasoline, but it has no smell of VODKA ;D |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Oldfeller on 08/25/12 at 12:12:34 Serowbot, there is only two other persons I'd ask (and one won't talk about it) who has fixed, rebuilt and altered as many vac petcocks as you have. Now that the replacement cost is only $16 shipped -- IF YOU PLANNED TO MOD YOUR BIKE (open up the air intake and exhaust system) TO INCREASE YOUR HORSEPOWER 10-20% OVER THE BONE STOCK SAVAGE SETUP, would you pro actively (pre emptively) remove the stock vacuum petcock system in total and replace it with a Raptor? If so, or if no, why? Lancer, how about you? Got any knowledge to share about them fast engines and how to feed them with enough gasoline at full power? ;) Lancer, if you could buy that $16 petcock in bulk for $4 a piece and get some rubber plugs for the vac port (or a good rubber washer equipped short self-tapping screw that would thread into the brass ID of the vac port cleanly) then you could supply in kit form what will be needed out into the future. Kit could include a large pleated paper fuel filter, the tubing & clamps for it and an instruction sheet. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by wambr on 08/25/12 at 12:32:52 guys, I'm sorry but I can something I don't understand your post... what do you want to get away from the Savage? explain to me, because he's going to start, can overtake probably any other bike of the same class. Yes it has not so much horsepower and it is not large in sizes, but it is a REAL IRON BIKE and he has a great sound of the exhaust! Savage I really like it! Yes I understand your fashion appearance, the rest yet for me it is not quite clear... P.S. please explain without slang |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Oldfeller on 08/25/12 at 12:37:41 Wambr, In America they put alcohol in the gasoline to save the environment and make all the politicians and corn farmers happy. It is stupid, but we do it anyway. We think the alcohol may hurt the petcock's rubber diaphragm over time. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Serowbot on 08/25/12 at 15:58:35 0C2F2725262F2F2631430 wrote:
Any Savage I own, or any friends Savage I work on,.. I Raptorize... Even the one's I resell,... I disassemble and inspect the petcock carefully... if it has the least thing wrong, I Raptor it... Personally,.. I think vac pet's are unsafe... don't trust them... If yer' gonna' ride a bike, learn to use a real petcock... ;)... |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Charon on 08/25/12 at 18:45:29 From Serobot: "If yer' gonna' ride a bike, learn to use a real petcock..." Doesn't do much for motorcycles and scooters with fuel pumps instead of gravity feed. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Digger on 08/25/12 at 18:55:40 21373B3424560 wrote:
wambr, In United States, fuel for motorcycle and automobile is 90% gasoline and 10% ethanol. Is your fuel 100% gasoline in Russia? |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Oldfeller on 08/25/12 at 18:56:06 Being sorta realistic, don't these scooters and such each have a forum who takes care of their needs? Every brand/type of motorcycle does, it seems. We take care of the Savage, and if you choose to go after the 10 hp that Suzuki wouldn't give to you stock then we have some good advice for you. Make sure to take off your stock vac petcock at the start of your journey -- this will keep you from tripping over it 5-6 times along the way. It will also protect your engine from some minor level "lean out" damage that will likely occur from the petcock running your float bowl dry repeatedly if you leave the vacsucker on there. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Oldfeller on 08/25/12 at 22:06:48 4F646D7E63620C0 wrote:
BTW, don't items that have fuel pumps NOT HAVE a vac petcock on them anyway ???? By definition, they have a fuel pump that doesn't run unless the ignition is on, right? :) |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by wambr on 08/25/12 at 22:26:14 705D53535146340 wrote:
wambr, In United States, fuel for motorcycle and automobile is 90% gasoline and 10% ethanol. Is your fuel 100% gasoline in Russia? [/quote] i repeat I can't say that in Russia's petrol-is it really gasoline, but it has no smell of VODKA Grin and my bike with 47000[ch1082][ch1084] and the age of 18 years goes fairly quickly. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Dave on 08/26/12 at 04:10:26 042929202334460 wrote:
I am not a big fan of all this extra, add on, consumer safety stuff. My mother has a riding lawn tractor that shuts the mower deck off whenever you back up......and the seat switch is so sensitive that it shuts the mower deck off whenever you hit a bump that makes you wiggle in the seat.....it is a real pain to mow with as the mower is constantly stopping. When I got my Kawasaki Super Sherpa last year I felt a bit old, as it was the first bike I have ever owned that was electric start and did not have a kick starter. It and the Savage were also the first bikes without manual fuel valves and with kick stand safety switches. For me the routine of starting and stopping the bikes is engrained and the kick stand is the first thing up as soon as I get on the bike - even before I turn the key on. I have read on this site about several bikes that have stopped running and people have had to chase down a corroded kick stand switch.....and it is just another thing that could potentially leave you stranded somewhere at a very inconvenient time. I removed the Raptor just to avoid future problems.....and probably will do the same with the kickstand switch for the same reason. My goal is not to make the bike unsafe.....just reliable as possible. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Charon on 08/26/12 at 04:57:33 46656D6F6C65656C7B090 wrote:
BTW, don't items that have fuel pumps NOT HAVE a vac petcock on them anyway ???? By definition, they have a fuel pump that doesn't run unless the ignition is on, right? :)[/quote] That is true. The effect, as far as the user is concerned, is identical and transparent. You turn on the ignition and start the machine. Fuel flow is controlled automatically, as it should be. There are also vacuum operated fuel pumps, which depend on vacuum pulses for their operation. My comment was aimed at the mentality behind the idea that real bikers need a real petcock. To add a clinker, and a source of complaint, bikes with electric fuel pumps often have a "bank angle sensor" which shuts off the pump if the bike goes down. Honda had a recall on some Gold Wings for a bank angle sensor which was so sensitive it would sometimes trip during parking lot maneuvers, causing the engine to stall and often causing the rider to drop the bike when he was expecting power. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Routy on 08/26/12 at 06:18:07 Ok, w/ the mentality of a "couple in piticular" on this forum, every owner of a motorcycle that depends on a fuel pump to deliver fuel to the carb or injectors, should shitecan their fuel pumps, and raise their fuel tanks high enuff to make for gravity flow,.......just in case that the fuel pump should have a problem in the next 10 to 20 yrs ! And what happenned to the poll,......all of a sudden the largest %age have never had a problem w/ the vac PC ?? Now don't that throw a stick in OF & Sero's spokes !! Wait a minute, I must have read it wrong. And what about the largest %'age at the bottom that raptorized out of pure "PETCOCK PARANOIA" ?? The biggest %age of them would have been added to the top,....if it wadnut for the "PETCOCK PARANOIA !! But, hand it to OF and Sero,...they are acheiveing their goal of wanting everyone to suffer "PETCOCK PARANOIA",.....it is rizing to dangerous levels !! |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Charon on 08/26/12 at 06:44:33 And I didn't even vote in the poll, because I have had both petcock and carburetor problems over the years I have been riding motorcycles - and driving cars, too. I even had a vacuum petcock problem on a 1983 Suzuki GR650 Tempter. The petcock sprang an external leak around the operating handle, which had no effect on its operation and was not related to the vacuum parts. It was replaced under warranty. I had a carburetor problem on a Honda Elite 80 scooter, where the medium speed jet had apparently not been properly tightened on initial assembly. It fell out into the bottom of the float bowl, and caused the scooter to lose power. That scooter, by the way, has a vacuum operated fuel valve, which had no influence whatever on the problem. Were it stated somewhere that the answers to the poll must be strictly related to the Savage/S40, I'd have had to go with no problems at all. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Routy on 08/26/12 at 06:51:34 Had carb issues that turned out to be petcock 2 (2.8%) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Only 2,......out of 70 ?? This wadnt sposed to happen ! I'd bet OF is sorry he ever started this poll !.......probably going off the deep end about now ! |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Charon on 08/26/12 at 07:04:48 I doubt OF will regret starting the poll, because even if he doesn't like the results it is still information. I'd like to know the percentage of ALL Savage/S40 owners who have had problems with the vacuum petcock, but we'll never find out from this site because not all owners are members. These forums are a self-selected and highly skewed sample. First, an owner has to actively search out a forum, and there are usually several from which to choose. Then that owner has to decide to enroll before being able to post comments or ask questions. In this case, the Savage has been called the Boulevard S40 for several years, and it is entirely possible S40 owners don't know it was ever called the Savage. The forum is suzukisavage.com, and doesn't mention S40 in its name. Many owners, having found and registered into the forum, will post something to the effect of "I just bought this thing and I sure love it." - and then never post again. Those posters do not provide any useful information. Even owners who remain more-or-less active seldom post maintenance information if they have no problems. So now we are reading about problems of whatever sort only from those who actually have them, and it looks as if everybody has whatever the problem of the day might be. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Oldfeller on 08/26/12 at 12:56:17 Routy, Let's look at the numbers together and Charon can watch carefully to make sure I don't overstate what they say. A sub-set of this week's readers comprise the poll sample, these are the readers who come to RSD regularly. This generally does not include all the Cafe people nor does it include all the Politics/Religion people. Well heck, nothing else does either, so let's just say we are short term polling the tech heads and be satisfied we understand our sampling well enough. Understanding these sampling limits, we will have to accept the people responding to the poll as a representative sample of the tech heads (time period "now"). We have done the same tech head sampling in poll form once before, so you can try to say "then" and "now" as far as the results, with a little salt thrown on it because the questions were a little different. And all you can judge really is if people are responding at a different RATE or RATIO of "problems" to "no problems" than they did before. What did I learn from that first poll that was unexpected? SOOOO many more newer bikes were having petcock issues than I had expected back then. There HAD to be a reason for this ..... This partially fueled the new though that really came out of the vac suction tests on my failed petcock, that low intake vac leads to low fuel delivery and WE MIGHT BE DOING IT TO OURSELVES BY TAKING OUT THE STOCK FAIRLY RESTRICTIVE AIR FILTER SYSTEM (lowering system vac levels across the board) while also asking for more gas volume to fuel a higher hp engine. This is logical enough, I think. So, in this second poll I carefully noted the upswing in people reporting "lack of gas" at various stages -- while being surprised at the fairly large number having to use their wrist to keep the bike going at stop lights (which is relatively new to my thinking). Conclusions? Overall ratio of vac problems to no vac problems is increasing. Why? Maybe age creeping up on the bikes, maybe more people trying to get that last 10 hp out of the engine, more likely a combo of both items and some other, not yet considered causes. Now, as to your point about "carb problems" really being petcock only being two (2) this time -- I take that as a positive comment on the fact we make all "carb issues newbies" do the Serowbot test first right off the bat now --- and we correctly identify the petcock issue before they even start taking their carbs apart. =============== Problems to no problems is about 50%-50% now .... it is increasing some from one year to the next =============== Raptorization still makes the bad stuff stop COMPLETELY. There is no "common incidence" of downside float bowl leakage getting gas into the sump as was initially feared -- we are still eagerly looking forward to the very first verified non-preexisting float needle leaker bike and we are pretty sure eventually it will arrive, given enough time. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Gyrobob on 08/26/12 at 15:03:36 We did the raptor mod on both RYCAs. One of them leaked a lot when we put gas in the tank. Turns out it was not the Yamaha valve's fault, but RYCA's. The surface where the valve was bolted to the tank was so warped from the tank reshaping, it wouldn't seal. We filed the surface flat. No leak now. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by bill67 on 08/26/12 at 16:16:45 Surprisingly my stock petcock doesn't leak either.When better petcocks are built Suzuki will built them. 8-) |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Oldfeller on 08/26/12 at 17:25:08 Good go, Bill -- very nicely said. Bad part for us is that Suzuki will go and attach that better petcock to a new motorcycle when they do it, and they will NEVER acknowledge our sorry assed petcock or our sorry assed cam chain tensioner system in a recall or even in a service bulletin. But then again, we are pretty good with fixing up these little "aggravating" things ourselves. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Serowbot on 08/26/12 at 18:03:27 414E544F535546444C4255270 wrote:
Wonder how many had petcock issues that turned out to be carb... :-?... Not many, I bet... :-/... |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by ohio thumper on 08/26/12 at 18:16:05 i went to the raptor because i was having fuel starvation problems. never had problems with fuel delivery since. good flow = go go!!!! |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Charon on 08/26/12 at 18:35:35 I was looking through a book I have about the Nebraska Tractor Test lab in Lincoln, NE. It lists results of tractor tests from the inception of the lab up through 1984. It includes gasoline, propane, "tractor fuel" and diesel tractors. The part of interest is a large table of economy figures, telling how many horsepower-hours are produced per gallon of fuel. There are over 400 gasoline tests, and as best I could tell (besides a few outliers) the results ranged from roughly 8 to just over 13 horsepower-hours per gallon. My unscientific method of choosing the mean was to go to the middle of the list, where I found about 11 horsepower-hours per gallon to be pretty common. These measurements are made with the tractor at full power pulling a load, so might be reflective of a motorcycle engine running wide open. If we relate this to the Savage/S40, and generously grant it 33 horsepower, it burns three gallons of fuel per hour, max. If we claim to have gotten another 11 horsepower with performance mods, it makes 44 total and burns four gallons per hour, max. Now, someone needs to measure the fuel flow for the standard petcock and the Raptor. I may get a chance to try it with the standard petcock, but don't hold your breath waiting (you might turn blue). The point I am trying to make is that we need to get some real numbers instead of anecdotal data. The Raptor does not depend on engine vacuum for operation, so it should be easy to measure fuel flow. Take the fuel line off the carburetor, run it into a calibrated measuring device such as a kitchen measuring cup, and time how long it takes to flow a measured amount such as a quart or even a pint. Convert that to gallons per hour. Even better would be to run a full two gallons, which would allow for differences between a full tank and a mostly-empty one. The factory petcock would be a little more difficult, although it could be measured in PRIME just like with the Raptor. Measuring in ON or REServe would require that vacuum be applied, easy enough with a large syringe or maybe even a turkey baster. But to really characterize it would require a vacuum source and a vacuum gauge, to see just how much vacuum is required to initiate fuel flow and whether fuel flow is proportional to the amount of vacuum applied. Not difficult to do, but tedious. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Joe F on 08/26/12 at 19:16:28 I have an 07 with 20K on it without any problems. I swapped my a few thousand back to make it easier to pull the tank. I'm rethinking it after dropping the bike and having gas leak out because of the manual petcock. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Oldfeller on 08/26/12 at 20:34:14 Joe F, Please tell us about what happened. How did you manage to give a lick to the Raptor petcock since it is well recessed behind the curve of the tank? Or did you hit it? Or maybe you need to explain where the gas was coming from and all the rest of the circumstances (like which side was the bike laying on, etc). Curious minds want to know ..... |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Oldfeller on 08/26/12 at 20:39:38 634841524F4E200 wrote:
Vac comes in engine intake pulses with their amplitude and duration varying as you go up and down the throttle butterfly opening range (amplitude) vs the actual engine RPM (duration). Vac pulses results in a somewhat smoothed response in fuel flow that varies proportionately to the vac pulses height and duration. The float bowl supply acts as a buffer, but when it goes too low you start to go lean and stutter. As Verslagen correctly pointed out in the last petcock war, a steady vac source isn't going to correctly mock the real system or show you what is really happening to the overall fuel flow. All my static vac tests could say is that the input vac level was matched with a proportional output fuel flow, as vac went down fuel delivery went down. Next, Prime position has nothing to do with the real flow out of a vac petcock in vac mode. Dave did his volume testing that showed the vacsucker flows less gas through the vac function than it does in prime even when the vac function is fully opened up with a large suction. The little needle and seat act as a volume restrictor even when fully open. But the vacsucker's needle and seat never STAY in full open position, they are constantly dancing to the amplitude of the system vac pulses coming from the engine pulling against the variable butterfly valve opening and the lower but constant resistance from the air filter (with the engine RPM calling the duration of each vac pulse). So Prime has no solution to offer -- if you are going to run in Prime go get yourself a Raptor and have yourself a reserve function. (running in Prime means running completely out of gas when you find out oops, you are REALLY running out of gas) :-/ .... aw shite, anybody got a gas can? |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Gyrobob on 08/26/12 at 21:35:24 If the pulsing vacuum is a problem with the stock petcock, why could you not insert a restriction into the line that almost completely shuts down the vacuum? That would still suck on the diaghram in the petcock to keep it open, yet it would dampen out the pulses. They do this kind of thing in test equipment and aircraft instrumentation often. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by verslagen1 on 08/26/12 at 21:55:18 it's in there, with a one way valve. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Boule’tard on 08/26/12 at 22:08:02 7749425F525F52300 wrote:
That's a good idea. Squeeze a round main jet into the vac line. 155 oughtta do it. :D One could take a running raptorized savage, hook up the vac line to another petcock and tank, and measure the flow rate at idle, 2-3000RPM, and 4-5000 RPM. Then try it with the partially restricted vac line and see if the overall flow rate is any better. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Oldfeller on 08/26/12 at 22:11:11 If the vacsucker has an orifice and a one way valve to keep the suck in, how does it know to release when the engine stops? Durn thing jest keeps picking up more & more internal complexity levels (and some additional failure modes) the more we know about it, doesn't it? |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Gyrobob on 08/27/12 at 04:59:33 5A495E5F404D4B49421D2C0 wrote:
Where is this located? |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Charon on 08/27/12 at 05:50:31 I am perfectly aware that engine vacuum comes in pulses. The vacuum is caused by airflow past a restriction, either the throttle butterfly or the throttle slide depending on which is in control at the moment. Airflow through the filter and intake system also has an effect. When the intake valve is closed the airflow stops and the vacuum goes away. The venturi vacuum also goes away with the cessation of airflow, so the throttle slide can also dance to the vacuum pulses unless it is damped in some way. I am also tired of arguing with the converted (vacuum petcock BAD; manual petcock Solution to All Problems) and so am dropping out of this discussion. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by LouSiana on 08/27/12 at 06:54:42 I cannot agree. There is no one way valve. The complexity level of the 'vac system' still is limited. ::) If something isn't working properly, look what exactly it is. Don't blame the system itself. Why does it work for so much years in tenthousands, maybe hundred thousands of bikes. Seeing the call of the name of this thread I shiver if one calls for death penalty for the vac system. Guess why. If one gets happy with a Raptor petcock or any other which would fit, ok. I even know enough Savage owners who swapped to a K&N Cone filter or something else with literally no problems on the vacuum petcock system. Due to registration years of bikes here the noise levels are more restrictive the newer a bike is. Therefore the early years of registration date are not so much restrictive and possible permission to mount a K&N rises. On the other hand this bikes logically are older... Every carburetor works on the Venturi principle, which means smallest diameter and highest air velocity is at the point where the needle valve sits. That means even under full throttle the pressure of the air is lower after the Venturi. Else there would be no carburation. Right if one says that the vac comes in pulses and the pulse depth decreases on full throttle. Then look at the port where the suction line sits and see its direction. Got it? It is pointing towards the engine, so the flowing air drags the air out of the port and the line in direction to the valves. It's a fact of mass inertia which helps if the vac ratio would not be sufficient. Check the diaphragm on the petcock and if it is fastened good and tight by the four small phillips screws; check the tube, even check the intake pipe if it is free of cracks and if it is mounted securely. If the petcock diaphragm is hardened too much or has cracks, ok then go for another petcock. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Oldfeller on 08/27/12 at 07:53:20 Lou, Cost is the first reason we wouldn't go buy a new Suzuki petcock, they want nearly $90 at the dealerships for a new one. The second reason we wouldn't go for the new Suzuki petcock is functionality, we would get more of the same sorts of "error actions" we got before, given enough years to develop it by hardening the diaphragm, etc. Remember WE ARE MOSTLY DOING THIS PETCOCK THING TO OURSELVES by removing our stock restrictive air filters and going after the 10 additional horsepower which requires more gas to flow. How much more gas does a full performance modded bike need? I can answer that pretty cleanly, 20% more gas. I used to get 100 miles per tankful, now I get 80 miles per tankful. And I can say clearly that a stock Suzuki petcock won't give it to you after you mod your bike, you will "run out of gas" during higher speed runs with fair regularity. ============================= Lou, have you ever tried to modify a stock vac petcock to overcome these difficulties that we are having? I know Verslagen has, he has the most tuned and modified vac petcocks on the face of the earth. And he won't talk about petcocks very much (although he will straighten me out a little when I get off kilter on the internals, which is fine -- somebody needs to). One other tidbit I will leave to you, what makes you think your vac petcock really cuts the gas off completely when the engine stops? You trust that it does, but I had one that sure didn't. For all the bullshite that it put me through when it was on the bike it didn't even reliably do the one thing that it was intended to do, which was cut the gas off completely when the engine wasn't running. Mine would drip gas continously at a very slow pace (which my float valve then stopped when the bowl got full). Charon, thank you for participating and bringing up all the very good points that you made. I especially liked the service bulletins and recall notices -- I'd have never gone looking for them otherwise. Lou, you come from a different Suzuki Savage culture and I value the perspectives you bring (and the fact the Japanese did a much better job of translating into German than they did into English). Actually, you and Verslagen both believe the vac petcock can be fixed, the only difference he has spent years fixing on them at this point. He also knows the vac petcock symptoms well as he has had them for years (multiple multiple times). I take the relatively crude position of "tear the bitchy thing off of there, it don't work right" and replace it with the Raptor manual petcock. For justification, I only hold up the success factor, it does fix all of the multitude of false symptoms completely and immediately. And so far, the Raptor downsides haven't arrived yet, although there are LOTS and LOTS of us now all looking each and every day for them to arrive. And we do ask when we think we see a Raptor downside -- witness the young man who wrecked his bike or his petcock or something who owes us all an answer as to what exactly he did to get a Raptor to have a leak. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by verslagen1 on 08/27/12 at 08:42:21 1C2229343934395B0 wrote:
Where is this located?[/quote] On the backside of the diaphragm in the inlet, there's a disk with 5 holes. The center one has a rubber plug which is attached to a rubber disk. Similar to an aquarium air pump valve, allows air to be sucked out but will seal when the vacuum is lost. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Oldfeller on 08/27/12 at 09:13:29 Ok, back to my dumb question -- how does it know when to quit doing that? .... preserving the vacuum, keeping the fuel valve open, allowing the gas to flow you knew what I meant ...... :) |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by verslagen1 on 08/27/12 at 09:28:58 doing what? It's a leaky rubber ducky, couple minutes at best. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by weracerc on 08/27/12 at 09:40:58 changed mine to the raptor before i had issues. loved the raptor |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Oldfeller on 08/27/12 at 10:27:04 785B5351525B5B5245370 wrote:
Hey, somebody has to ask the dumb questions. Some of them are important and the answers are always entertaining .... |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by LouSiana on 08/27/12 at 12:09:02 Oldfeller and verslagen1, let me thank you for your modest and very informative answer. I must say, I disassembled several petcocks and did not find any faults except worn O-rings, that funnel formed rubber gasket on the pin of the diaphragm and in one case a diaphragm which would leak soon. I also reassembled a petcock because his owner did not know how to. I was just out in the garage to find that one way valve. Oh, it is there, and it is quite good hidden. And I found the rubber plug to be a good bit smeary, no more like rubber uses to be, it was a bit like chewing gum. I apologize for my claim that there is no valve! But, in my opinion, it should produce a tiny leak itself. And it can't do it, if the rubber plug gets that smeary and sticky, that's right. But before I disassembled it, it worked well and there was no effect that it would clog completely. Far from it, I could hear the release of the diaphragm very clear when I stopped sucking. I think, gassy portions of fuel can reach that little rubber plug and destroy it after many years until it then does, what you found out. Holding the petcock open in an unplanned and unwanted way. This may be a matter, what stuff fuel contains. Seems we got the same petcocks at all, maybe the fuel on your side has a different composition. (Something I think, fuel composition is one cheap way for the producers to get rid of stuff which would produce high costs on deposit. We got up to 5% of methanol in the fuel for many many years and nobody bothered about. But that's another story) I never heard about petcock failure in that way in europe or to be more detailing in germany and I easily could have had in over 30 years of 'business', if there was something about it. BTT... That little valve, albeit not in a perfect state, did not block the reflux of air to release the diaphragm. It leaves me a bit at a loss and I will sure give in you encountering bigger problems with it than me. But.. whats the purpose of it. Considering it should not clog completely the airflow, it must have to do with avoiding the diaphragm to flutter! Just like a very small jet in the line outside the carburetor would do. Sampling up vac but not coming through pulses. And soft releasing if the engine stops. I aditionally give in, if it clogs and holds the petcock open, that's really an issue. I own a 87 Savage with K&N cone filter, with a modified camshaft but for more 'steam' on lower revs, not at high rpm, and did some work on the exhaust porting and better gas flow in the muffler (Jets are 155 and 52,5 or a bit more). But, may be my fault, I don't like to go faster than 75mph or at least 80 mph. I like to come up there quite quickly, but that way I could not experience fuel starvation. My '89 sidecar savage has a lot more full throttle experience but it is all stock equipment except minor changes like handlebar. It runs about 85 mph or a bit more. But I like to go about 60-65 mph with it. So I can agree with a different culture ;) |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Oldfeller on 08/27/12 at 16:32:41 Lou, Do you mod for performance in Germany by removing the restrictive stock air filter and changing out the exhaust system? Or are you limited in what you can do by your yearly inspections? |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by LouSiana on 08/28/12 at 13:47:33 Oldfeller, some do like you do, yes. In cases for performance enhancement. But, right, still we are limited to our two-year inspections by tech surveillance orgs who give you a stamp on the license plate. Special assemblations and modifications have to pass there a non-regular presentation with approvement but with a remark in your bike papers. And those modifications are restrictive in cases of safety, noise pollution and so on. One can't do anything he wants to. Papers, approvals, permissions, papers again. I could refer later if anyone has an interest in how it works down here in Germany. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Dave on 09/03/12 at 09:37:48 6A4941434049494057250 wrote:
Hey, somebody has to ask the dumb questions. Some of them are important and the answers are always entertaining .... [/quote] OK....Rainy morning here in Kentucky......so I had time in the garage to see about this. I knew that when I pulled a vacuum on the petcock with a small hand pump and gauge - the vacuum did not bleed off. This made me wonder how there could be a check valve and a bleed hole? I took my stock petcock apart and here is what I found. The vacuum line does pass through a check valve that has a rubber disc and 4 small holes. There is also a single hole on the side that bypasses the rubber disc.....so this allows air to bleed back at a rate 1/5th of the rate that the vacuum can be created. (Single hole operates in both directions....so it allows flow in both the vacuum directions using 5 holes and the bleed function using only 1 hole). http://i48.tinypic.com/291jabr.jpg I also found that the way the bypass works is that there is a little piece of metal that moves and pushes the diaphragm open when the lever is pushed into the Bypass Mode. I believe this is significant as it does not bypass the diaphragm and fuel is still in contact with the diaphragm - but in the bypass mode the diaphragm is held open and not really bypassed. Therefore if your diaphragm has a hole in it, the fuel can still get through the diaphragm hole and into the vac line. This picture shows the little bump on the white fuel valve that operates the plunger when in the bypass mode, and on the right in the back of the hole is the little metal pluger affair. http://i48.tinypic.com/35byzvk.jpg In this photo you can see the plunger that pushed the diaphragm open in the bypass mode. http://i50.tinypic.com/wvaej5.jpg So....there is a one way valve, and it knows we have stopped riding as it does allow the vacuum to bleed back into the vacuum line when the engine is shut down. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by LouSiana on 09/03/12 at 10:52:36 Well done, Dave and fine pictures! But, what if the small bleeding hole seems to be failing and vacuum still holds the petcock open after shutting down the engine? I can only guess, I think, then something might have clogged the small bleeder hole, maybe parts of the decomposing rubber plug right beneath or a tiny bit of the diaphragm came off and goes astray there. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by wambr on 09/04/12 at 10:34:07 I kind of understand how this works plunger. when I heard the fuel valve on my motorcycle and realized that "PRI" not working, I removed the spring plunger. i replacing it by a simple washer (not to reduce the fuel tube) |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Joe F on 09/20/12 at 18:49:05 It was a low speed drop after I realized I was going to fast to make a right turn. It didn't bang or ding the tank. I remember standing over the bike, still attached by my airbag. I'm thinking it was on the right side. Gas was leaking out onto the street and I thought "I guess vacuum petcocks are safer" It hasn't leaked any since so I'm guessing the gravity fed fuel ran out one of the vent tubes. I'm mostly a "gas and go" guy so that could be wrong. 4B6860626168686176040 wrote:
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Oldfeller on 09/20/12 at 21:13:32 Joe F, You are correct, in any layover event on either side, gasoline will come out of the vent tubes. It is part of their purpose, to allow a gas vapor pathway out of the carburetor and also a way for liquid gasoline to exit (no matter which side it goes down on) during a laydown event. This makes Routy's point about the vac petcock being a safety device seem a bit weak since it isn't the petcock that does the leaking in a laydown, it is the vent tubes. I guess he can say the vac petcock limits the gasoline to just enough leakage to set your pants and shirt on fire really really good, but not enought to completely incinerate you to charred dust ..... (unless it gets your seat foam burning, then you can kiss the gas tank goodby) But, let's be clear -- you are saying your Raptor had no play in your gas episode, it was the vent tubes doing their thing as the were designed to do. No "gas in sump episode", no "leaking float valve episode", no Raptor failure to speak of at all ..... Now, about this airbag that you were attached by .... care to elaborate on that one a little bit? Curious minds want to know ..... |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Cavi Mike on 09/20/12 at 21:54:09 The vac petcock is a safety device in the event the carb float sticks or the float needle valve sticks open. It has nothing to do with the bike tipping. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Oldfeller on 09/20/12 at 22:05:44 5D7F68775377757B1E0 wrote:
This is true. Now, we are still waiting for the first one of these carb float sticks or float needle valve sticks open to happen once a Raptor is in place (the Raptor is holding the fuel level STEADY right up at the shut off point like a good little petcock should do so the floats and valves are working correctly). Point I am making here is that without the vac petcock starving the bowl until the float goes down to a hard stop position (and sticks there) there doesn't seem to be any float sticking or float needle valve sticking open going on with the Raptors. This may seem a little harsh, but since we are all looking we can look for these little scenarios too. I will continue to point out that all the gas in sump episodes so far have happened (started) with a stock vac petcock, and nary a one has started with a Raptor. And it has been what, two years now? We shall start counting sticking floats and sticking needle valves according to what petcock is mounted when it first starts too. Understanding Charon's point that the population of vac petcocks is supposed to be greater in the wild than the population of Raptor petcocks, I will also point out that here on the list that ratio is now officially going the other way, with more (27) Raptors now and only (21) stock vac petcocks. ;) the shoe is on the other foot now .... |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Cavi Mike on 09/20/12 at 22:16:52 Vac petcocks exist because of sticky float valves + regular petcocks(like the Raptor). The Raptor is not special, it's just a valve. Just because it hasn't happened yet on this forum doesn't mean it won't. There are very few Raptor converts compared to stock users so it may be while before that one-in-a-million chance of a stuck float valve happens - but it will happen. A stuck float valve came before a vac petcock. *edit* And I see your point about there being as many converts as there are stock users on this forum but you gotta remember that people don't go searching for solutions until they have a problem - and that's when they find out about this forum. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by verslagen1 on 09/20/12 at 23:05:46 Think you're totally wrong mike. vac petcock exist for forgetful owners who can't remember to turn it off and tip overs. sticky float valves and raptor petcock? what's going to happen if the owner remembers to turn it off? nothing. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by J C Stokes on 09/20/12 at 23:23:41 Verslagens post is interesting, I feel he makes a valid point about people forgetting to turn the petrol off. I am considering the Raptor once my S40 comes out of warranty. As an antique car person I am well used to turning petrol on and off. As a 63 year old I'm used to doing it with older motormowers and motorbikes. I feel there is probably a generation under forty five that has little experience of turning petrol on or off and indeed these people are used to automatic this that and the other. Suzuki obviously thought of these people. An interesting point about the stock device is that it appeares to have a built in fuel filter, which the Raptor doesn't appear to have. This is my one reservation about installing it. I watched the very good video in the tech section to find this out. Countering that, it appears that there are those who say that a Raptor will cut down on on farts and pops by maintaining a constant float level which is why I'm still interested. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by verslagen1 on 09/20/12 at 23:29:32 163B21203B3A3D2031540 wrote:
Those white things on the ends of the pickup tubes are filters. But they may require more frequent cleaning due to their smaller size. http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Right-Hand-Suzuki-LTZ-400-LTZ400-Fuel-Gas-Petcock-Pet-thingy-Valve-Tank-ATV-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqJHJDYE-8ydmlv6BP07dz)VzQ~~60_12.JPG |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by J C Stokes on 09/20/12 at 23:33:52 Thank you Verslagen |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Cavi Mike on 09/21/12 at 00:23:27 584B5C5D424F494B401F2E0 wrote:
Wrong about what? Who says everyone turns their fuel off? I never did because J C Stokes is right, the younger generation(like me) has never had to shut the fuel off for anything so I never thought about touching my petcock except to go into reserve. That was, of course, until I came outside from the store one day and found a puddle of gas under my bike. Just because you shut the fuel off every time doesn't mean everyone does and it's not like you shut it off every time. I know you've forgotten before because it's inherent in humans to miss something sometimes. You're not perfect so don't even attempt to say you are - you forget things just like the rest of us. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/21/12 at 00:53:03 My 05 Yamaha 250 cc 4 wheeler has gas in the oil. Not a vac petcock. I suspect a worn needle/seat., Ill see, IF I can figure out how to pull that carb.. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by wambr on 09/21/12 at 02:43:50 2D3E2928373A3C3E356A5B0 wrote:
I completely agree... this fuel valve is suitable for the forgetful... |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by wambr on 09/21/12 at 02:55:29 627D7B7C61665767576F7D713A080 wrote:
I already wrote about this problem a few days ago... now I'm completely sure that the vac petcock not protects from leaking of the fuel and getting it into the engine. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by Oldfeller on 09/21/12 at 09:35:41 Cavi writes: Wrong about what? Who says everyone turns their fuel off? I never did because J C Stokes is right, the younger generation(like me) has never had to shut the fuel off for anything so I never thought about touching my petcock except to go into reserve. That was, of course, until I came outside from the store one day and found a puddle of gas under my bike. Aha! In the midst of heated discourse a piece of factual data slipped out and got quickly covered by the spray of debate. As everyone knows we are all still diligently looking for the first Raptor leaker event, so what I need to ask Cavi for is the particulars for this puddle event. What bike, what petcock, what was the real problem, ect etc. Really, take a moment and expand on what happened. Cavi, you hang in there buddy -- it is important that we have somebody on the stock vac petcock side to keep the rest of us Raptor Nation folks honest. Really, honest data driven debate is still needed -- so you keep up the good work. We all now pause to recognize the passing of the stock vac petcock torch, from Verslagen to Routy to Charon to Cavi, each new generation of debaters taking up the good fight until each in turn was overwhelmed by numbers and data and facts to the contrary. (a moment of respectful silence, please) ================================ Cavi responds to a PM asking for the details. It wasn't a Savage at all. It was an old KLR650 and it was actually my friends bike. I don't remember the year but had to be late 80's - early 90's with the big funky square headlight and a bright blue seat. |
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Title: Re: Stock Vac Petcock is a piece of shite Post by javajunkie on 09/22/12 at 09:49:59 I used to have an '81 GS550 with a vac style petcock and it leaked all the time and when I bought my '97 Savage that was the first thing I replaced...so far no problems |
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