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Message started by rfw2003 on 08/01/12 at 11:11:02

Title: Got a weird one here
Post by rfw2003 on 08/01/12 at 11:11:02

Got woke up by my son this morning saying my bike was laying on it's side trying to start itself. I went out to see what was going on and sure enough it was on the ground and the starter was churning. It couldn't have been going on for to long because it was still turning over fairly strong against the motor without the decompression solenoid engaged. Now what is weird about this is the fact it did this by itself. Key was in the house, key switch in the off position, nothing crossing the terminals on the starter solenoid, and what stopped the starter from going was me pulling the connector off the back of the fuse block.

This tells me where ever the short happened it bypassed all the safety switches, kickstand, clutch, ignition, and key switch.

Any ideas on where to even begin looking for the issue??

Oh reason it was on the ground, I normally park with it in 1st gear.

R.F.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by Paraquat on 08/01/12 at 11:29:26

Ghosts.

--Steve

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by Boule’tard on 08/01/12 at 11:30:41

10041550525251620 wrote:

This tells me where ever the short happened it bypassed all the safety switches, kickstand, clutch, ignition, and key switch.

Any ideas on where to even begin looking for the issue??

The fact that the short bypassed all the safety checks should make it easier to find.. just work back from the starter and see how it got +12V, simple! :D (sorry I'm no help)

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by rfw2003 on 08/01/12 at 11:51:51

Yeah I'm leaning towards Ghosts myself since it sat for over 12 hours since the last ride before it happened :P

I had already thought about going backwards if nothing else for the tracing Boule'Tard was just hoping someone here might have had a suggestion since it seemed to bypass everything and didn't have any obvious direct short across the starter solenoid and pulling the fuse block connector stopped it.

R.F.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by verslagen1 on 08/01/12 at 11:52:23

the starter relay gets it directly from the battery.
the starter button goes to the decomp relay over the carb to the starter relay.

I'd look for a pinched wire under the tank.

http://www.savageriders.com/verslagen/images/'96-'03Startingcircuit.jpg

not as likely as it was sitting fine to early this morn... but relays sometimes get stuck. And will take a good rap on the fender next to the key to unstick.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by rfw2003 on 08/01/12 at 12:15:15

thanks for the starting point verslagen, when it starts to cool off some this evening I'll go pull the tank and see what I can find. To dang hot right now as it's over 100 out there, and I don't have a garage to work in right now. Will report back on what I find this evening.

R.F.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by verslagen1 on 08/01/12 at 12:17:02

4F5B4A0F0D0D0E3D0 wrote:

It'be hotter than that in the garage if you had one.
kick the kitchen table over and drag it in 8-)

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by rfw2003 on 08/01/12 at 12:19:30

I would drag it in the house, but the way my porch is set up I can't get it in. :( I have tried once before.

R.F.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by Spamy on 08/01/12 at 13:03:14

First thing that popped into my mind, Was someone trying to hotwire it and steal it and got spooked and ran off.

But sounds more likely the ground shorting. Strange this bike has so many circuits regulated by the ground and not the hot. Its not very failsafe.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by splash07 on 08/01/12 at 13:48:00

you said your son found it right.....did you question him thoroughly?

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by rfw2003 on 08/01/12 at 13:59:59

Spammy Where I live it's not very likely that anyone would try to steal anything, and if there was that issue they would be to afraid to come onto my property with the known number of guns I own plus what my neighbors own, we kinda have a neighborhood watch thing going on here, and we do look after each other.

Splash yes I did question him and his friend that both found it thoroughly, they had just walked out to go play and noticed it and came right in and got me. I also questioned my daughter as she had been out earlier then they were. My son while being very smart just isn't capable of doing anything to try and hot-wire it. He doesn't even know how to get the seat off, nor how the wiring on the any motor vehicle works, he's only 10 and hasn't been taught all of it yet.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by splash07 on 08/01/12 at 14:15:17

I was thinking more along the lines of maybe he jumped on to play or pretend he was driving it, pulled in the clutch, maybe hit the kill switch off, then hit the starter causing a short somewhere. But it sounds like you trust him pretty well. would not have been the case at my house, my old man knew better than to trust me, still does. ;D

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by Paraquat on 08/01/12 at 15:39:54

30243570727271420 wrote:

He doesn't even know how to get the seat off, nor how the wiring on the any motor vehicle works, he's only 10 and hasn't been taught all of it yet.

"Yet"... so you plan to teach him how to hot wire?

--Steve

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by rfw2003 on 08/01/12 at 16:51:40

7F4E5D4E5E5A4E5B2F0 wrote:

[quote author=30243570727271420 link=1343844662/0#10 date=1343854799] He doesn't even know how to get the seat off, nor how the wiring on the any motor vehicle works, he's only 10 and hasn't been taught all of it yet.

"Yet"... so you plan to teach him how to hot wire?

--Steve[/quote]
nope, but as simple as some vehicles are I'm sure he will figure it out as he learns mechanical skills from me.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by drums1 on 08/01/12 at 16:55:03

I had a similar problem on my '87. I went to start it one day and after firing up the starter kept right on spinning. I shut it off and pulled the key and there it sat, still cranking. Turns out there was a short in the solenoid. I had to pull the seat and reach down there where it's hidden, and rap it with a screwdriver to make it stop. It's mounted on the front of the rear fender, like behind the airbox.
Hope your bike didn't suffer too much damage, crashing to the ground and all.....

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by Boule’tard on 08/01/12 at 16:56:26

I'm still baffled by this. "Stuck relay" seems the most plausible, except that it's so odd that a relay would get stuck in the opposite position than it was sitting in.

You sure the bike fell over after it got stuck on start? Maybe a kid knocked it over and that broke your starter relay?

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by Charon on 08/01/12 at 17:04:18

My first thought was that the spring which holds the starter relay contacts open had failed, allowing them to close and supply power to the starter. But that would not explain why pulling the fuse wiring would stop it. At the least, this shows you your battery is in good shape.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by rfw2003 on 08/01/12 at 17:14:51

O.k. Looks like I'm gonna have to question my kid a bit further. I just went out to start looking at it, to see what I could start to figure out. First thing I did was a few taps to the relay then plugged the fuse block back in. It's working correctly now. Now I'm like ya'll trying to figure out why that would have any affect at all if it was the relay since no power to the fuse block is supplied unless the key switch is turned on. I'm starting to think that my son and his friend might have been playing around the bike and knocked it over and that caused the relay to trip and when I pulled the fuse block plug it was just coincidence it stopped the starter. I ran the length of the wires under the tank just to make sure sense I had it off recently during my headlight upgrade and no wires were pinched.

R.F.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by ToesNose on 08/01/12 at 17:20:55

R.F. have you done any mods to the bike recently? If so I would start with any wiring in around there or related to anything you've done :-?

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by rfw2003 on 08/01/12 at 17:25:04

073C36201D3C2036530 wrote:

R.F. have you done any mods to the bike recently? If so I would start with any wiring in around there or related to anything you've done :-?

Just replaced all the lighting with LED's and a HID upgrade to the headlamp, but all those were plug in upgrades except for the HID for 1 wire which is run from the relay to the battery. So there was no messing with the stock wiring on those upgrades. But I did double check all that while I had the seat and tank off to be sure I had no shorts anywhere.

R.F.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by Boule’tard on 08/01/12 at 17:55:45

Is there a test for the decomp controller? Looking at the wiring diagram, it seems like a short in the decomp controller would activate the starter relay, and be stoppable by pulling the 20A fuse. So maybe the decomp controller is going flaky, or the wires to it are touching somewhere.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by SaVaGeEaRL on 08/01/12 at 20:22:24

There's a few tests for it in clymers. Mine is bad and keeps the bike from starting on occasion. So I ran a button switch I had laying around until I talk myself into paying 70 bucks for a new controller. It seems the controller could possibly cause the problem rf had...

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/02/12 at 06:34:21

The decomp controller requires the TINiest of inputs ( in terms of amps) to fire the starter. There is a single red ( 12 V) wire that runs near it. There is a wire on the decomp timer that, when given 12 volts, will fire the decompression solenoid & fire the starter. It will do it with the bike in gear, bypassing all safeties & even if the key is in your pocket,
I have a switch out of a DVD player wired in, strapped under the frame under my right thigh, if I ever have a starting problem, I can know a lot real quick by just touching that switch. I wanna say theres yellow on that wire, not sure now, I know its toward the front of the bike & I wanna say its second from the left in the connector. Anyway, the switch is Tiny, it would sit on my little finger nail. It carries no current to speak of, so, it wouldnt take much of a Skint Spot on insulation to allow a connection big enough to do what happened.
It Would take a near miracle to have the bike fall over & land 12 V on that wire & it stay there,, Wadda strange event that was,,

Some kinda "shoe" under the sidestand mite be in order,.
OR,, did it fall over first? Was it in gear & engine spin & it walk off the kickstand? Did the kickstand sink in the ground?

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by rfw2003 on 08/02/12 at 07:59:12

I'll take a look into that JOG. For now it seems that it's fixed though.

As far as if it fell over and then started the issue, or the the starter went first and it walked off I'm not sure. Can't get anything else outta my son. I almost always leave my bike in gear when I park it so yes it is possible that if the issue happened by itself it did walk off the stand. There are no holes from the stand in the ground where it was parked so I it's unlikely it was a sink and fall over type of deal, after all we are in the TX red clay area and with the temps we have been having it's almost like concrete.

I will be watching it over the next several days to make sure it doesn't happen again and if it does will investigate further.

R.F.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by rfw2003 on 08/02/12 at 17:14:46

Well the ghost is back, and I know for a fact it's not one of my kids. I witnessed it myself this time. I had just let the dog out and shortly after that while I was standing there the starter just up and started churning the motor over :o This just happened about 10 mins ago. A sharp smack to the fender support stopped it, but for now I just pulled the pos wire from the battery till I can figure out what the heck it going on here.

R.F.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by ToesNose on 08/03/12 at 04:20:14

Poltergeist!!! :o

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by Bubba on 08/03/12 at 09:24:15

Then it's probably like Drums said...a short in the solenoid...plus after you rapped on the fender it stopped...I'm terrible at electrics but that's where I'd start.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by SaVaGeEaRL on 08/04/12 at 01:14:17

The solenoid won't be a source of current though. Start with the controller and go backwards from there. I'd bet it's the controller.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by rfw2003 on 08/04/12 at 01:41:15

5943444146475158340 wrote:

The solenoid won't be a source of current though. Start with the controller and go backwards from there. I'd bet it's the controller.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by Cavi Mike on 08/04/12 at 01:47:20

It would have to mean that the neutral safety switch, clutch safety switch and ignition are all faulty. Though it's possible, it's not probable. The fault is with the solenoid. The return spring or something has broken inside the solenoid and is allowing it to close. The solenoid should be the first thing replaced.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by Routy on 08/04/12 at 04:09:20

436176694D696B65000 wrote:

I would agree, but if the spring failed, then it would never return to its "N/O" position.

Something is activating (energizing) the starter relay, bet on it !

I think I would suspect the comp release controller.
It is an electronic time/delay switcher, that could have become temperature sensive,........or.....how would I know ? :-/

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by Cavi Mike on 08/04/12 at 05:22:28

You shouldn't ever assume that things are black and white, especially when it comes to electrical connections and extreme temperature differences. Cold damp day and the bike all of a sudden turns over slow but on hot days it's fine and whenever the bike is warm it always starts right up? That's from heat expanding the metal connections at the battery, or the cold contracting them and causing a high-resistance connection. It's probably a similar situation here. When the bike is warm, the busted spring has expanded enough to hold the plunger away. When it cools off, the spring contracts and eventually bam, contact, and the engine begins to turn over.

I'm not saying that's exactly what it is but you're making the situation a LOT more complicated than it most likely is. The probability of 3 things failing at the exact same time is less likely than you winning the lottery while simultaneously getting struck by lightning. Replace the solenoid first, it's the logical first step.

And besides, without the ignition switch turned on, nothing gets power except for the starter solenoid. NOTHING. It's not like in a car where power is still running to half of it. In a bike, the ignition is more akin to a battery cut-off switch. The entire bike is powered down with the ignition off.
I am wrong. Fuses get power directly from the battery.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by Routy on 08/04/12 at 08:09:41

If that wiring diagram is correct, and the wiring has not been altered, and pulling the 20 amp fuse was just a coincidence, then you are correct.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by Boule’tard on 08/04/12 at 08:14:08

5F4B5A1F1D1D1E2D0 wrote:

You are missing something. The decomp controller gets +12V straight through the red/white wire that passes through the 2nd fuse. No key, clutch switch, no nothin'. It always has access to that 12V and all it has to do is pass it on to the black/yellow wire that goes to the starter relay and the starter will light up. Test the decomp controller and look for any chafed insulation, particularly the red/white and black/yellow wires. (I don't know the actual colors.. just going with the diagram)

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by Serowbot on 08/04/12 at 09:06:26

This... is one problem I hope I never get... :-/...

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by Cavi Mike on 08/04/12 at 09:40:20

Oh crap, look at that, I completely missed that wire. The one with the white plug on it. How did I miss that? Well anyways, if rapping the fender makes it stop, how could it be anything else? Rapping the fender isn't going to shake the decomp controller even if it was mounted to the fender, it's rubber isolated.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by verslagen1 on 08/04/12 at 10:03:51

436176694D696B65000 wrote:

The cause of the problem is a hot wire short somewhere.
the sticking relay is another problem.

I've always wondered why that wire wasn't thru the iggy.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/04/12 at 10:22:10

697D6C292B2B281B0 wrote:

[quote author=5943444146475158340 link=1343844662/15#27 date=1344068057]The solenoid won't be a source of current though. Start with the controller and go backwards from there. I'd bet it's the controller.

Well it still may end up being that and something else, but unless I'm reading the wiring diagrams wrong, the controller doesn't get any voltage unless the key is in the on position, so wouldn't this mean my key switch would also have a short in it as well, or a short in it's harness? The way I read it is, there are only 2 places that have constant power and that is the large cable lead to the starter relay from the battery, and also the smaller wire lead to the key switch unless I'm missing something.

R.F.[/quote]

Yep,, you are. Theres a single red wire, 18 maybe 20 gauge, skinny thing, under the seat that is always hot, Thats how I made my switch always spin the starter, even with the key in my pocket,

Unlessyou are talking about that red wire being the one that goes to the key,, IDK where it goes, I found it & used it.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by rfw2003 on 08/04/12 at 12:27:58

I will definitely check into the decomp controller and the wires suggested coming from it. If it turn out it's the controller itself and not the wiring, is it really needed or could I just use a push button wired to directly to the solenoid and just hold it down while cranking it over to start it?

R.F.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by Routy on 08/14/12 at 20:27:29

Did we ever get anymore on this problem ?
I think it was narrowed down to more likely being a faulty controller for the comp release,.....if not a shorted harness ?

I kinda renamed this "The spooky Suki"

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by rfw2003 on 08/14/12 at 20:32:18

040B110A16100301090710620 wrote:

Haven't had a chance to get to looking into it more yet, but yes I'm def leaning toward the faulty decomp controller since on last look at the harness I didn't find anything. Life is getting in the way atm so I haven't been able to tear into it yet for further analysis. Should be able to get to it by this weekend though.

R.F.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/14/12 at 20:39:38

I wanna say 2nd wire from left on the front of the decomp will fire the decomp & starter if ya lay 12 V on it. I think that bypasses it, but it sure will start that way..I THINK thats the right wire..

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by rfw2003 on 08/15/12 at 16:52:49

Problem located and temp fix applied. It was the decomp controller.

Ghost in the zuki is GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

R.F.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by rfw2003 on 08/15/12 at 19:43:20

Just took apart the Decomp controller and it was def the issue. Here are a few pics of the inside of it. Notice the brown sludge and corrosion all over the place in there. The circuit board break was from taking it apart.

http://i1158.photobucket.com/albums/p618/rfw2003/IMG_20120815_211013.jpg

http://i1158.photobucket.com/albums/p618/rfw2003/IMG_20120815_210954.jpg

http://i1158.photobucket.com/albums/p618/rfw2003/IMG_20120815_210941.jpg

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by verslagen1 on 08/15/12 at 20:34:07

How puttin' this in the tech section?

tell us how you tore it apart and why.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by rfw2003 on 08/15/12 at 20:50:37

716275746B6660626936070 wrote:

How puttin' this in the tech section?

tell us how you tore it apart and why.

Sure can since you suggested it, Will work up a how-to and why it came to me tearing it apart to see what went wrong in there.

Here is my post, lemme know what ya think and if I should add anything else to it. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1345089927

R.F.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by verslagen1 on 08/15/12 at 21:27:48

funny, rust looks like the connector was pointed up and filled up with water.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by rfw2003 on 08/15/12 at 21:32:46

574453524D4046444F10210 wrote:

funny, rust looks like the connector was pointed up and filled up with water.

yeah that's what I was kinda thinking as well, but with they way it's mounted don't see how it's possible.

R.F.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by SaVaGeEaRL on 08/16/12 at 18:59:45

I need a controller as well, but it's keeping mine from starting every now and then. I put a starter button on it cuz I had one handy and will get a controller when I can get myself to spend 70 bucks for a new one. When I get it, I'll take mine apart too and see if it looks liike yours.

Title: Re: Got a weird one here
Post by rfw2003 on 08/16/12 at 19:03:27

53494E4B4C4D5B523E0 wrote:

myself I don't think I'll ever pay the $70 for a new one. I'm actually thinking about designing and building a fully solid state version that will be epoxy potted.