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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" lately? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1343699410 Message started by Oldfeller on 07/30/12 at 18:50:09 |
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Title: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" lately? Post by Oldfeller on 07/30/12 at 18:50:09 Soon, folks are gonna start learning about ZDDP levels the hard way .... The antique valve train in the Savage engine REQUIRES a high ZDDP oil to stay healthy. Some folks on here lately have been buying second hand bikes from folks who didn't get this message. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by renegade1 on 07/30/12 at 19:11:33 Ill bite, simply cause i have no idea what your talking about haha lets hear whats going on? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Boule’tard on 07/30/12 at 19:16:06 67444C4E4D44444D5A280 wrote:
Where'd you get that ZDDP supplement? I was in Autozone the other day looking for the same red-tinted stuff, but all they had was "zinc substitute" type products. Is the real deal easy to find? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 07/30/12 at 19:19:36 http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/Images/L/1678.JPG It can be bought off the net if your local auto parts store doesn't carry it. ======================= Renegade, oils used to have an additive in them at circa 1,000 to 1,200 PPM levels called ZDDP. It protected flat tappet type valve trains from destroying themselves (all cars around 1980 - 1990 that had overhead cams used flat tappet style valve actuation). Run forward in time through 30 years and 5 levels of EPA regulations and vola, in 2012 you can only legally have 600 ppm of ZDDP in a normal car oil. And this is NOT enough ZDDP to protect your Savage's engine and valve train. This leaves your Savage out in the rain as far as protecting the valve train goes. ::) And vola --- we now have a constant stream of newbies coming here saying "my engine ticks and knocks -- why is that?" So, where are you going to find enough ZDDP to keep your Savage engine healthy? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Boule’tard on 07/30/12 at 19:24:55 Cool, thanks. I'll look for it. It was probably right in front of my face and I glossed over it because I didn't expect it to be labeled break-in additive. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by srinath on 07/30/12 at 21:19:55 The oils that work well for old bikes - shell rotella T or delo, diesel motor oils. I use SF rated oil Accel 10w40 is my favorite. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 07/31/12 at 04:04:06 +1 on the Rotella products, they have 1,200 ppm of ZDDP and are motorcycle MA rated right on the jug. People who use "any old car oil" are buying expensive repairs for themselves -- witness all the bikes being bought slightly used by new owners with all the mysterious "tickings" and "knockings" of late. Suzuki is dodging this issue by recommending an obsolete SF oil (which 15-20 years ago was still readily available and it DID have enough ZDDP in it back then). Now days, straight SF only oils are just about non-existent, and the bottles generally carry a whole bunch of more modern SM and SN designations in front of the SF (which means it honors the modern standards first, not the older ones). Check the ZDDP levels in these trick labelled oils, you may get a surprise. Also check out the new oil watchdog group who is slapping the hands of oil bottlers who lie about their products. http://www.pqiamerica.com Interesting that a watchdog group is NEEDED now-a-days, I guess the reason is that people don't know very much about oil any more and they assume "any old car oil" is good enough ..... and they are buying engines because of this lack of knowledge. ========= Acell 10w40 as sold by WalMart is packaged by Warren Products, same folks who do the SuperTech oils. Warren meets the specs AS SPECIFIED for any oil they sell -- but read the thread below from Bobistheoilguy for how an obsolete spec can give the bottler more wiggle room than was allowed when the spec was current. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2559814&page=1 If you are buying Acell 10w40 you could be buying Warren Product's SuperTech HDEO Universal 15w40 in a gallon jug for the same price or a little less per quart. It has all the full modern HDEO additive packages in it so it will outperform a simple F rated oil on many fronts, ZDDP included. Or you could splurge and buy the motorcycle MA rated Rotella T in the white gallon jug. That extra dime or so a quart gets you a well known, well respected oil that is WELL KNOWN to properly support your Savage engine. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Dave on 07/31/12 at 05:03:17 I have a local shop that carries Brad Penn oil....and I am going to be switching to that oil. They have the old Kendall refinery and use Pennsylvania crude oil.....and here is their information on the ZDDP. The Brad Penn® Penn Grade 1® High Performance Oils contain the higher level of anti-wear (ZDDP – zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) and enhanced film strength so critical to proper high performance engine protection. The Penn-Grade 1® oils “typical” 1,500 ppm Zinc (Zn) and 1340-1400 ppm Phosphorus (P) content provide the needed anti-wear protection to critical engine parts, such as piston/cylinder walls, roller cams under heavy valve spring pressure and especially those that employ a solid “flat tappet” type system. It costs about $ 5.50 a quart for me to purchase locally. Cheaper than a rebuild I am finding out! |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by RanDaMan on 07/31/12 at 05:15:28 So if I were to put SHELL ROTELLA T oil in the bike would it still need that bottle of ZDDP additive? or is there a sufficeint amount of it in that type of oil? :-? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by bill67 on 07/31/12 at 05:18:36 Do you really think Suzuki is selling oil that isn't any good for the S40,Shame on them Japaneses. The Japaneses and Chinese are the dumbest people in this world. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by RanDaMan on 07/31/12 at 05:32:55 "Japaneses" ? ::) haha way to show em how us americanses are vastely superior ;D |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 07/31/12 at 05:37:52 Bill, if you can tell us the brand name and bottle ratings for the oil in question, we may be able to find independent testing of it. But, as always, you just throw out stuff with no knowledge to go behind it at all. Shoot us a pic of the oil you are talking about so we can see it. ============ Randaman, no additive is needed for Rotella T, it has enough ZDDP in it to keep your engine healthy. ============ Dave has seen/is seeing the sorts of damage that can be caused by low idle speeds and wrong oil -- ask him, he can tell you all about it. Notice he is carefully looking around to select his next oil for after he puts his repaired engine back together. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by bill67 on 07/31/12 at 05:40:46 Klotz 1400 ZDDP and it made for motorcycles. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by RanDaMan on 07/31/12 at 05:41:44 Only one problem i havent been able to find that Shell Rotella T around here i have a valveline oil in mine at the moment so I'll swing by the auto parts store and see if they have that additive. do you just pour it right in the oil resvior? if so how much of ? :-? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 07/31/12 at 05:44:21 Do they not have Walmarts with Auto departments in Mass.? I know they have auto parts places like Autozone and Advance Auto Parts. Ask the clerk where they keep the diesel oil. =========== ZDDP boosters are expensive, they almost double the cost of an oil change when used with lesser car oils. For the price of that bottle of booster, you could buy 2+ full oil changes of Rotella T (white gallon jug). Look again, look for the diesel oil section in wherever you are looking. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Charon on 07/31/12 at 05:55:10 I can't remember where I saw the article, so cannot reference it. It claimed that 1200 ppm of ZDDP was an adequate level, and that there was little or no benefit in going for higher levels. If that be true, the advertised levels of 1400 ppm in Klotz (as claimed by Bill) is of no more benefit than the 1200 ppm in the much less expensive Shell Rotella synthetic. Perhaps someone with better knowledge of lubrication systems can clarify it. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by bill67 on 07/31/12 at 06:08:34 65464E4C4F46464F582A0 wrote:
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by RanDaMan on 07/31/12 at 06:15:00 the walmarts near me have auto sections but its limited to super tech and castrol oil oh and some penzoil. but nothing MA rated for motorcylces. i usualy go to advanced auto! ill have to ask them about the diesel oil. The valvaline that I have was designed for wet clutches but I didnt notice if it was MA rated or the level of ZDDP. ill have to check when i get home. Thanks for looking out O.F ; |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 07/31/12 at 07:16:18 6A6164643E3F080 wrote:
[/quote] OF Bill, I do believe you have just done a thing that you accuse others (falsely) of doing. Since you made such a flapper-doodle thing about it, I thought I would point this one out for you so you could get all upset with yourself. ;) |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 07/31/12 at 07:34:17 Charon, I too have read that ZDDP past 1200 PPM is surplus, that it only gets used when the existing ZDDP plating gets scrubbed off repeatedly and the excess has an opportunity to be used up (generally it gets used up over time). Our bikes get the oil changed FAR more frequently (short replacement intervals) than to ever begin to get into the "over 1200 ZDDP reserves". ============ Take that same logic and turn it around on its head --- my new 2011 car requires me to change the SN spec'd (600 ppm ZDDP) oil every 3,750 miles instead of the old 7,500 mile change frequency. Why? Because if you don't change it early you might run through the weak SN grade additive package levels spec'd by our government CAFE standards and cause Nissan some engine warranty costs. Some of the car mgfs are upset with SN oil standard as it is hurting them in their repair warranty costs. They have to use a thinner oil to get better CAFE mpg ratings, but the lack of enough additive package to support this thin oil use in SN grade is simply a no-win situation for everybody. Honda and others are now putting in "oil additive sensors" (they call them oil life sensors) that tell you to replace your thin weak-arsed SN oil whenever the additive package starts to get tired. Once again, tacit admission that the CAFE based oil standard SN isn't completely up to the job of taking care of a MODERN roller tappet style engine. What does this say about antique flat tappet engines like our Savage if SN oil isn't working out all that well in brand new engine designs? :-? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Cavi Mike on 07/31/12 at 08:09:51 616A6F6F3534030 wrote:
http://www.klotzlube.com/products.asp?cat=4 Over $14 for one quart? No wonder why people buy Rotella, it's less than half the cost. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by bill67 on 07/31/12 at 08:50:22 You can get it for $10 a quart. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by verslagen1 on 07/31/12 at 09:01:45 494247471D1C2B0 wrote:
Where do you get your info bill, just did a search of the Klotz site and no mention of ZDDP or Zinc or Phosphorous in anything made for m/c's. Did you just pull it outta your @$$ as usual? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Serowbot on 07/31/12 at 09:49:30 I be thinkin' it's Global Warming... All his heat in places it's never been before... Ticky,... ticky,... ticky,... they always tick more in the heat... Tucson is going to be 10 degrees cooler than the grain belt, today... We also have double our usual monsoon rains... We might become tropical... :-?... I'm tickin' less,... but I'm poppin' more... it's the humdiddity... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by srinath on 07/31/12 at 10:07:00 Shell rotella and delo and all diesel oils are easily available @ truck stops. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by srinath on 07/31/12 at 10:23:45 And I aint buying nothing called KLOTZ. Sounds like a ladies hygene product. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Oldfeller on 07/31/12 at 11:00:36 Bill, now that's a right disgusting image for your favourite erl to be sure. "I pulled out my tampon and it was all slithery & redd-ish pink and covered with Klotz ...." :-/ Eeeeww !! |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by RanDaMan on 07/31/12 at 11:16:14 So I just got back from the auto store and they did have shell rotella but they had 3 diff. types ones was rotella T1, the other was rotella synthetic, and the third was rotella triple protection! I couldnt find anything about ZDDP on the containers though? :-? nor any meets "MA" requirement symbols? do they only go into that kind of detail on thier website? and O.F :o thanks for that image hahahahaha ;D |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 07/31/12 at 11:42:52 Rotella has the MA and DH-2 ratings are right on the back of the jug along with all the other things that it is rated for (quite a list, isn't it?). https://www.google.com/search?q=rotella+t+jaso+ma+rating&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=ubuntu&channel=fs Now, as far as ZDDP goes ..... http://www-static.shell.com/static/can-en/downloads/products_services/lubricants/rotella/rotella_triple_protection.pdf ============== Different types of Rotella The T-6 is the high temperature full synthetic that some of us use to be bullet-proof in our modded heavily-stressed engines. For a stock engine this full synthetic is not required, it is optional. Rotella T (triple protection dino) is the minimum you need to keep your engine healthy. The big gallon jug should cost around $13.99 most places, WalMart does have it and they do sell it a dollar cheaper. Here is Walmart's on-line ordering system, you can order anything from Walmart and have it show up at your local store in 2-3 days for you to come pick it up. http://www.walmart.com/ip/Shell-Rotella-T-15W40-Motor-Oil-1-Gal/14958327 ============ and here is something new for you Walmart shoppers !!!! http://www.walmart.com/ip/Rotella-T-15W40-Motor-Oil-2.5-Gallon/14958359 http://www.walmart.com/ip/Rotella-T-15W40-Motor-Oil-5-Gal/14958329 |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by bill67 on 07/31/12 at 11:48:51 Get the 5 gallons you will need it so you don't run out for the rest of the summer. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by bill67 on 07/31/12 at 11:51:07 5B70796A7776180 wrote:
Amsoil has 1400 too,but then what do they know. ::) |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by WD on 07/31/12 at 15:41:13 Just bought 3 quarts of T and a filter from Wally-weird yesterday for Lisa's 800 Intruder. JASO MA rating is right in the front of the bottle. Since she has made the mistake of thinking her bike takes premium fuel (since 1999), I expect to be changing the oil and filter frequently. Heavy duty oils pull a lot of excess carbon out of your engine. They are designed for it, de-coking an engine keeps it running cooler, longer. Doesn't have to be Rotella. Chevron Delo, Mobil Delvac, whatever flavor Tractor Supply now carries, NAPA (crappa) diesel spec... You want a good heavy duty truck, tractor oil in a primitive engine. Other than the CDI box the Savage engine is a 1930s design. Save all the fancy synthetic this, specialty that for bikes with a high enough powerband to require $10 or more per quart additives. It's a Briggs rototiller engine on steroids. Even crappy old ND 30 works fine in it. If you trust the engineers to have gotten it right... they don't ride. They don't care. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by 87 savage on 07/31/12 at 17:06:40 Oldfeller, what is your take on Mobil one 15/50 synthetic?? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Oldfeller on 07/31/12 at 17:31:06 http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2384725 Let me synopsize what the Bob boys had to say: First, it is fairly good car oil for its weight, which is a bastard weight halfway between 15w40 and 20w50. The SM version of it was a better oil than the current SN version. This also points out that Mobil 1 will apparently make abrupt changes in an oil without saying anything to anybody -- buyer beware of Mobil1 in this aspect, you may not get what you just thought you bought. ============== Now for my question to you --- why do you want to buy a friction modifier type car oil of a weight that isn't specified for your motorcycle's engine and wet clutch? Especially from Mobil1 who likes to stick in moly (yep, it's in there at 81 ppm) and other energy star type items in there at whimsy whenever they change the oil on you without telling you? Just curious .... (you must like them real "Mobile" slippy clutch plates) :D |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Charon on 07/31/12 at 17:39:39 I think we can safely summarize by saying if the container doesn't have JASO MA on it, don't use it. I was recently at a Yamaha dealership, which had a big "SALE" table on the floor. They had a lot of quart containers of a Yamaha branded oil out there on sale. Looked pretty good, except the oil didn't have the MA rqating. Apparently that oil was for their four-wheelers, which do not have a wet clutch. Their floor people were at a loss when I asked them about the MA label. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by 87 savage on 07/31/12 at 17:53:19 092A2220232A2A2334460 wrote:
Thanks for the quick reply Oldfeller! I have used it since day one in the 05 Toyota Matrix which now has 113000 miles and is all stock except tires and spark plugs. Amazing car and purrs like a kitten. I have heard grumblings about not using synthetics in a wet clutch because of slipping. But, up until my 87 savage I have always used Mobil1 and never had any slipping in many a bike. That being said, It appears I would be well served to switch to Rotella in the Savage. Any recommendations on weight and type of Rotella? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by rl153 on 07/31/12 at 18:36:13 My bike has 5k miles on it and it ticks when it gets hot. I use suzki 10-40 4cycle motorcycle oil . I'm thinking of adding the zddp additive. It doesn't say anything about it on the oil bottle . How much additive should I add to the oil.Thanks! |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 07/31/12 at 19:05:36 87 Savage, if you like synthetic oil, get Rotella T-6 in the blue jug. Both Verslagen and I use it and get good results from it. T-6 is a full synthetic rated at 5w40. This means it doesn't get thick when it gets cold (oil gets up to the head quickly when you crank up) and it doesn't thin out when it gets hot. And hot, with T-6 can get very very hot with no issues. T-6 can get up in the 450-500 degree range before degrading seriously and a Savage engine simply can't figure out a way to get that hot. Very very hot to a Savage is in the 350-400 degree range. This isn't going to give T-6 a tickle, much less hurt it any. ===================== rl153, instead of popping $17 to buy the booster, why don't you pay $12.99 for a gallon at Walmart and get you some dino Rotella T in the big white jug. You have been using a dino oil from Suzuki that costs a lot more and you just haven't been getting the ZDDP you need from it. Read this and understand it is saying the Suzuki branded oil is nothing special at all and it is sub-par to any of the HDEO products like Rotella. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1413474 |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by 87 savage on 07/31/12 at 19:11:00 0B2820222128282136440 wrote:
Thanks Oldfeller I'll give it a try. Just about done my engine rebuild and I have to buy oil soon anyway. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by rl153 on 07/31/12 at 19:14:16 alright ,i'm convinced, wheres the best place to buy the s40 oil filter online? Is rottella T 15-40? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by ralfyguy on 07/31/12 at 19:28:06 0F06150A0D0652515A5A630 wrote:
OF, last weekend I took my wife on a 30 mile ride to Eufaula's Whole Hog Days. I kept it pretty much at 75mph the whole way. Temperature was 110 with a heat index of 122. By the time we got there, the bike felt really really hot, so much that the kick stand was going out pretty rough even though I greased it not long ago. I just changed oil a week ago and of course put T6 in there again. What do you think how hot it really got? Was T6 at or even over the limit? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by ralfyguy on 07/31/12 at 19:29:21 737A6976717A2E2D26261F0 wrote:
I usually get mine at Bike Bandit. BTW, is there no other alternative than the Suzuki filter to buy online or at the stealership? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by rl153 on 07/31/12 at 19:53:16 I'm going with the Rotella T-6, they sell it right up at the corner advanced auto parts ,for $24 a gallon. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by WD on 07/31/12 at 21:22:40 Get your filters online from JC Whitney. Same EMGO filter the dealership uses in their service bays. Trust me, the Honda/Yamaha/Polaris/Suzuki dealer used to buy then by the caseload from the shop I worked at. $4.95 or so versus $10.95 for the oem (priced them today, won't be going back there). Or send Kimchris a pm and see when she is making a Bent run (she'll know what you mean). Shipping would be a lot cheaper. That shop has hundreds of them in stock. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by WD on 07/31/12 at 21:25:30 As far as Mobil 1, Lisa drove her 85 Celica GT-S from Memphis to Seattle back in 2001 when we moved. 50+ mpg but the cam was flat by the time we got there. $2000 dollars worth of engine damage by the time all the metal dust had worked its "magic". So we don't even look at Mobil oils anymore. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by ralfyguy on 07/31/12 at 21:40:08 Mobil surely seems to have ruined their reputation in recent years. I used to love that stuff... |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by stinger on 08/01/12 at 02:19:16 I still do not understand all of this oil controversy. I have almost 50,000 miles on my 02 and I have never used anything other than Castrol auto oil in my bike. Sometimes I just use the cheap stuff, and yet my bike is running like a clock. No oil leaks, the clutch is still fine and I'm only on my 2nd cam chain which i did not really need to replace at 33,000 miles. I also travel at high speeds, 60 and above for most of my riding. Rode almost 700 miles in one day from Missoula to Portland in one day and my oil was still workin as it should. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Uno-Lung on 08/01/12 at 04:08:53 Oldfeller is a rotellatard. Call up the Shell lube tech line and they won't recommend roteller t for gas motorcycles. Oh, by the way, I use T6 in my savage -- even through they don't have it on their T banner. I fixed that. http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/tartard/mousemilk.jpg |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by bill67 on 08/01/12 at 04:52:22 Shell don't recommend Rotella for gas motorcycles :o ;D |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/01/12 at 06:02:42 003B3A7819203B32550 wrote:
;) Well, you convinced Bill anyway. Now go convince the 10's of thousands white and blue gallon jugs sitting on shelves all over the USA that the JASO MA & DH-2 approvals (for gas motorcycles) aren't printed on the label along with all the rest of the approvals and certifications ..... ..... and convince all these supposedly knowledgeable people that posted in this Google Search. https://www.google.com/search?q=rotella+jaso+ma&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=ubuntu&channel=fs Part of the etiquette of these little oil discussions is providing PROOF of the things you say. You can get called out to provide the backup information for your stance, and you are getting called out on this one. "Call up the Shell lube tech line and they won't recommend roteller t for gas motorcycles". ;D ;D ;D I'll help you out some with your position because the Bobistheoilguys discussed the JASO certified vs approved terminology quite thoroughly several times. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2647970 There are two ways to get the JASO certification on your bottle, you send them the oil once (to JASO or to a JASO approved lab) and pay them to test it ...... ..... or you (preferred in the ISO/TS automotive world) have a ISO/TS/JASO certified lab actually in your producing plant and you continuously report the on-going self-test data that shows that you continuously check for JASO standards and you maintain scrupulous records that you maintain that testing and the results track within the approval specs continuously lot by lot by lot by lot. Both methods are expensive, but in Shell's case they already do all the testing anyway to maintain that entire long list of approvals and certifications that are listed on the bottle. So, doing it ISO/TS automotive style actually is a no-brainer to Shell and once the initial paperwork was done to get their lab ISO/TS/JASO approved and to prove to JASO that Shell's existing ongoing test records are enough to show ongoing continuous "approval" to the spec. Which would you rather have, a one shot deal from 4 years ago that said one shipped in sample of the oil in question met JASO spec, or an ongoing lot by lot data history that says it always meets the spec? Don't let the legal terminology that applies to this stuff trip you up too much. Me, I think I'd prefer what Shell does continuously lot by lot to a 3-4 year old one shot "certification" check. ;D |
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Title: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Rotella trollings Post by Uno-Lung on 08/01/12 at 20:27:38 You simply amaze me, Oldrotellatard. People on that 2nd link you provided proved my point. Just like your link to disprove golf ball sized molecules proved that molecules come it different sizes and was just a golf ball sized stratagem used by a Roteller troll. You are slick, but not as slick as the product you foam at the mouth about in your lube war threads. “It’s on the interwebs –- It has to be true!” The weasley Shell tech dodged FX4's question in FX4's opinion. Rotella is a HD diesel motor oil and Shell had not paid their $500.00 and is not “certified” JASO according to your link. The first one sez different. What is it? The weasel tech would not recommend it, but would warranty the product because Shell tested it and it meets (does not exceed) the performance requirements. So you need to ask your Rotella loving self why didn’t the weasel tech and Shell not go for the certification and a recommendation with a simple yes or no answer in the second link. Like opinions and assholes -- everyone has one, and I think that Rotella was not formulated for gas engines and that is why we have this stand off. Don’t get me wrong – T6 is a great oil and for the savage app it works, however T6 was not engineered for that purpose and there is a reason Shell will not put their money where your mouth is -- in this case –- Shell’s arse. Bill is right, and the way you treat him borders on cyber-bulling. Shell Rotella T is a diesel motor oil that can be use in gasoline engines which compromises it in both apps. Savages are gasoline powered, do not have the compression of diesel engines or inter-cooled turbo chargers, and are primitive compared to what is burning diesel on the roads today. Just because you stumbled upon Rotella T does mean it is the best lube to use and all your caterwauling isn’t going to change the fact that it was engineered as a heavy duty diesel engine oil that happens to meet (not exceed gasoline specs). The mere fact the Suzuki doesn’t recommend the weights Rotella comes in proves that you are experimenting with your unit. Shame, shame on you, Rotellatroll. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by ralfyguy on 08/01/12 at 21:30:47 All I can say is that ever since I use T-6, my bike has never run better and smoother. The engine never ran more quiet and since almost three years after I switched to it, the valve train does not seem to have any wear, thus checking on the valve gaps, there was nothing to adjust. Still the same as back in the day. I never regretted the switch.I am totally pleased with the results. That's all that matters. Whether the Android phone is better than the iPhone, or the Blackberry sucks or what oil has to be forced to use on somebody and whether we try to tell the oil companies what their oil is suitable for is so irrelevant as if a sack of rice in China flips over. I have no idea what is so funny and interesting about trying to upset one another and waste time with immature discussions like that. Picking on each other seems to be the number one sport in the 21st century....OMG... Let one another be.... |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Rotella trollin Post by Oldfeller on 08/01/12 at 22:16:22 576C6D2F4E776C65020 wrote:
Now, this is a fine example of ..... personal attack ?? and misdirection ?? Do you think Shell hasn't got the $500 to pay for a one shot test? They probably paid a lot more than that to get their internal lab ISO/TS/JASO certified and they do pay about $5,000 for each yearly outside ISO/TS/JASO systems audit to prove their quality systems are up to snuff. Actually, all you have said up top is that you ain't buying any facts that you disagree with that are put before you that backed up by any source you choose not to believe. (but you believe the parts that you like) And I had forgotten about your silly golf ball sized molecules, but thanks for reminding us again that Rotella has molecules the size of golf balls and they can't/won't fit in the piston to wall clearance zone. :D ...and I put my mouth where? Now for that little tid bit I think you deserve a month in the penalty box where you can ponder the rules on "no personal attacks" that do apply here in Rubber Side Down. But since you attacked me, personally, I'll let the other mods deal with you this time. ;) Attack me again and I'll do it myself. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by BelizeanBanman on 08/01/12 at 23:30:42 To change the topic: What's the opinion on Lucas 10W-40 Motorcycle oil? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by bill67 on 08/02/12 at 03:01:05 Rotella the 3 in 1 oil. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Oldfeller on 08/02/12 at 06:58:16 Not all that much out there on Lucas dino style 10w40 motorcycle oil ..... but there is data on the fully synthetic 0w40 Lucas motorcycle oil though. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2574270 ============== Bill, ya got a nugget of truth in the last one, a HDEO universal oil is sorta like a 3-in-one oil for great big high compression hot nasty sewing machines. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Rotella trollin Post by Boule’tard on 08/02/12 at 08:09:31 5368692B4A736861060 wrote:
Well why don't you enlighten us then. You take the same position as Bill, the position of "It's a DIESEL oil LOL" but never quite get around to explaining what the fuel type has to do with the price of cheese. Sure, on a good day you might rattle off a couple of differences (typical but not necessarily present) between the engine types. RPM range? So what. There are small diesels that rev higher v8 gas engines. Deposits from the fuel? Carbon deposits and acidic combustion products are similar. Intercooler? Irrelevant. Cars have been built with them and the oil spec is not changed because of them. Turbochargers? Many gas powered cars have them. You don't change the engine oil because of it, except to be sure you have an oil that can take high temperatures (probably a synthetic). High compression? So what. The primary purpose of engine oil is to prevent metal parts from wearing away as they are rubbed together at high pressure. High compression increases that pressure on some parts. Are you saying an oil with the film strength to handle this is a compromise? Name any characteristic of diesel engines that when considered in the oil, is bad for our motorbike engines. Explain how it is "compromised in both apps" and your post will be suitable for the RSD section. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by bill67 on 08/02/12 at 09:21:48 Theres oils made for motorcycles they were designed from the ground up for motorcycles,Now if you have a motorcycle thats the oil to use there are many companies that make motorcycle oil.Now hammers were made to drive nails but you can also drive nails with a brick.Theres a smart choice for everything why not use the smarter choice. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by rfw2003 on 08/02/12 at 09:43:13 Here is the TDS sheet for Rotella T6 http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_Local_TDS_United_States_Shell_Rotella_T6_5W-40_%28CJ-4%29_%28en-US%29_TDS_v1.pdf Here is the TDS sheet for Rotella T http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_Local_TDS_United_States_Shell_Rotella_T_Triple_Protection_15W-40_%28CJ-4%29_%28en-US%29_TDS_v1.pdf Both specify the use in Gasoline engines and the Triple Protection one actually mentions motorcycle use in the TDS sheet. Both also show the JASO, MA and DH2 approvals. R.F. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/02/12 at 09:49:14 Bill, I think you may be missing the main point here. The Savage engine has unique needs compared to "motorcycle engines" in general because of our bike's continuing use of antique style flat tappet cam to valve rockers. If you don't get enough ZDDP in your oil, you can get a case of clicky tappy knocky before too terrible long. SN grade oils have ONLY HALF of the ZDDP that the Savage engine needs. And I'll use the Lucas 0w40 motorcycle synthetic mentioned several posts above as a good example of a "motorcycle oil" that is based on a SM or SN grade car oil and it doesn't have half of what your Savage needs. So, if you can follow the chain of logic, simply saying "use a motorcycle oil" or "use a JASO MA approved oil" isn't enough for the Savage -- it does not address the unique Savage ZDDP requirements for flat tappet use. It would be nice if Savage redid the head with roller tappets, but I don't think that's gonna help all the bikes built since 1987 (yours and mine included). |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by bill67 on 08/02/12 at 09:54:57 Klotz and Amsoil both have 1400 zddp. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by bill67 on 08/02/12 at 09:58:01 6F7B6A2F2D2D2E1D0 wrote:
Motorcycle oil don't even have to mention for use in motorcycles. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by rfw2003 on 08/02/12 at 10:01:50 282326267C7D4A0 wrote:
Motorcycle oil don't even have to mention for use in motorcycles.[/quote] How do you figure that? If it didn't say motorcycle oil on it, how would you know it was for motorcycles? ::) |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by rfw2003 on 08/02/12 at 10:09:08 I just got an email back from Rotella where I asked what the ZDDP levels were in their Rotella T and Rotella T6 oils here is the response. Quote:
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Charon on 08/02/12 at 10:17:29 Bill has made up his mind that Rotella is not suitable for motorcycles. No amount of evidence to the contrary will convince him differently. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by rfw2003 on 08/02/12 at 10:21:50 78535A4954553B0 wrote:
That I know, I'm just the type that puts actual true evidence and information out instead of stuff pulled out of nowhere. :) |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by bill67 on 08/02/12 at 10:23:44 Charon says 1200 zddp is all you need because Klotz and amsoil have 1400 and Rotella only 1200,Theres other oils with more than 1400 zddp. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by bill67 on 08/02/12 at 10:25:21 3D29387D7F7F7C4F0 wrote:
That I know, I'm just the type that puts actual true evidence and information out instead of stuff pulled out of nowhere. :)[/quote] Whats your evidence that rotella is better than motorcycle oil. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/02/12 at 10:25:40 Also, Bill is not considering that Amisol and Klotz cost over twice as much per quart as Rotella T-6 costs .... ..... and around four (4) times as much as the dino Rotella T costs. For a stock Savage engine the white jug Rotella T dino 15w40 has all the ZDDP you need in it already and it costs $12.99 a gallon at your local Walmart. Not $13.99 a single quart like Amisol or Klotz. ;D Bill, active denial doesn't become you. Rotella T and Rotella T-6 are motorcycle oils by definition of JASO and they have the sterling advantage for the Savage flat tappet engine of having 1200 PPM of ZDDP in them when many of the other "motorcycle oils" do not. Are you really saying that SuzukiSavage.com should keep a listing of "Approved Savage Oils" in the tech section to keep all the newbies from buying the wrong stuff? Actually, that isn't a half bad idea. What would the criteria be for inclusion? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by rfw2003 on 08/02/12 at 10:30:03 313A3F3F6564530 wrote:
That I know, I'm just the type that puts actual true evidence and information out instead of stuff pulled out of nowhere. :)[/quote] Whats your evidence that rotella is better than motorcycle oil.[/quote] What is your evidence that it is not? At no time did I say it was the best oil bill, that is you putting words in my typing. I was just pointing out that it is suited for motorcycle use and has been tested by labs to be suited for motorcycle use. I also seem to remember reading a post on here from another member that used several different oils and testing running temps and found that overall the Rotella made his Savage run at a lower temp then even your high and mighty Red discharge oil. Not that may not be a lab approved test but that does tell me and others that it does indeed lower the friction levels in the engine more then your Klotz oil does, I'm sorry to say. I'm not one to tell a person they must use a specific oil or not, but if asked what I use I will proudly tell them what I use and recommend it based on my experience. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by rfw2003 on 08/02/12 at 10:33:59 785B5351525B5B5245370 wrote:
agreed. Now if the Savage or any motorcycle had the sump & filter capacity to actually warrant an extended change interval then I would migrate to a more expensive oil like Amisol like I use on my cages, but since the capacity of the filtration and sump is so small there is no need for using such an expensive oil as you can never get the benefits of it that it's designed for. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Charon on 08/02/12 at 10:44:42 The list of "Approved Savage/S40 Oils" isn't a bad idea at all. Perhaps there should also be a list of "Recommended Savage/S40 Oils" as a subset. "Approved" probably should include all oils with suitable ZDDP levels, and all SAE grades generally used. It should certainly NOT include those oils with friction modifiers such as moly or graphite. "Approved" would include any oils, any price, known to work satisfactorily. "Recommended" would be a subset of "Approved" and would include such factors as cost and ready availability. It might even reduce the number of SAE grades, since Versy's testing seemed to show higher engine temperatures with oils having a 50 as the high number. Don't forget the most important thing - if it doesn't have a picture of a motorcycle, it can't possibly work. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by rfw2003 on 08/02/12 at 10:50:31 5F747D6E73721C0 wrote:
Don't forget the most important thing - if it doesn't have a picture of a motorcycle, it can't possibly work.LMAO I think that is a pretty good Idea. Just gotta lock bill out of it so he doesn't scare off any of the newbs to using oils that don't specifically have said pic of a motorcycle on the bottle. ;D |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Oldfeller on 08/02/12 at 10:53:10 Bill has a question .... does a two stroke dirt bike picture count as a motorcycle picture? How about two stroke snowmobiles? =================== If you are going to cut to the chase on "Recommended" -- would you include price per quart in that equation? I don't think you should have to pay more than $6 a quart for a suitable oil for your Savage. ;D You can if you want to, of course. Heck fire you can pay up to $18 a quart for Royal Purple for all I care. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/02/12 at 10:58:21 You do know that if we cook up some good "Recommended" criteria and lock the post with the recommended list on it to keep it from growing a bunch of nonsense comments, we would actually then have a tool for quickly answering newbie oil questions and for killing off any oil wars that crop up spontaneously. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by rfw2003 on 08/02/12 at 11:01:20 0D2E2624272E2E2730420 wrote:
That it could, but I'm sure bill would still find a way to try and do oil wars somehow :P |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by verslagen1 on 08/02/12 at 11:15:42 There'll need to be several classification by ind lab cert by mfr cert by user rec by bill |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Charon on 08/02/12 at 11:17:03 Matter of fact, I DID put both cost and ready availability in the criteria for "Recommended." I don't know where I'd draw the line for cost, particularly with the differences in cost of conventional and synthetic oils. I'd prefer avoiding a whole bunch of lists, though there might be "Recommended Conventional" and "Recommended Synthetic" lists. Ready availability would mean something to the effect of available in Walmart, Autozone, O'Reilly, and the like, and would pretty much exclude those which have to be ordered or purchased from a specialty dealership. You will notice I specifically avoided mentioning brand names. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/02/12 at 11:49:19 This sounds bad (and I am thinking Mobil 1 specifically) but you cannot trust the mgf's certs as some mgf's feel they can change the formulation of an oil at whimsy and simply not tell anybody. I think several current independent lab tests (readily sourced at BITOG by way of a Google search in this format "oil brand and weight VOC") are more trustworthy than whatever a mgf like Mobil has to say about it. If you can't find several independent test results, perhaps that indicates an issue with that particular product .... ============== So, we are down to a quick list of Recommended Dino and Recommended Synthetic oils. Must be JASO MA rated, must have 1200 PPM of ZDDP or more. Cost not to exceed (let's be generous here) $8 a quart with the oil to be readily available nationally at Walmart, AutoZone, O'Reilly, Advanced Auto Parts. Needs to have posted VOA information for users to peruse (mgf data must be supported with independent VOA verifications). I think we can forgo the bike pictures on the jugs as we know several contenders don't have any pretty pictures on them big ugly gallon jugs. Should we also have "a widespread history of good protection based on list usage" requirement of some sort? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/02/12 at 12:41:33 Bill, given the criteria for "SuzukiSavage.com Recommended Dino and Synthetic Oils" as developed so far do you have any oils that should be included in the list? ::) |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Uno-Lung on 08/02/12 at 12:58:03 OF Hey Uno, perhaps you thought I was kidding -- I wasn't. Now every post you make will be actively moderated by myself or one of the other mods. The remainder of your post is fine and remains unchanged. You only miss one critical point in what follows, and that is Rotella T and T-6 are not Diesel Oils -- they are HDEO Universal Oils and are fully acceptable for use in gasoline engines. Other than that, congratulations for finding some though provoking supporting information. Compression and spark engines are different animals. What is good for one is not so good for the other and vice versa. It’s a two edged sword. While Rotella does a great job in the top end with its Zinc a Dink, the cylinder wall and rings are over cleaned by the massive TBN (total base number) in all diesel formulations. The next paragraph is not my own, but these guys — http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28576/comparing-gasoline-diesel-engine-oils- Diesel engine oil has more additives per volume. The most prevalent are overbase detergent additives. This additive has several jobs, but the main ones are to neutralize acids and clean. Diesel engines create a great deal more soot and combustion byproducts. Through blow-by, these find their way into the crankcase, forcing the oil to deal with them. When you put this extra additive load in a gasoline engine, the effects can be devastating to performance. The detergent will work as it is designed and try to clean the cylinder walls. This can have an adverse effect on the seal between the rings and liner, resulting in lost compression and efficiency. Suffice to said, the vocal minority are correct in saying that diesel motor oil is not that great for our savages. Of course the lube techs know this too and will not recommend the product for the questioned application. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by rfw2003 on 08/02/12 at 13:15:52 182322600138232A4D0 wrote:
So I take it from this your saying just because an oil has a high TBN number makes it bad for a gasoline engine? Does this mean your stance on Amsoil products are crap and shouldn't be used in any gasoline engine period since they have one of the highest TBN numbers of all oils out there? This also applies to most syn oils compared to dino oils as well, as they also have TBN numbers that are much higher then the dino oils they are compared to for the same application. The additive package also known as the TBN is what helps remove and encapsulate the junk in the oil so that it can be carried to the filtration system in a much more efficient process. The higher the TBN the longer the oil can last between change intervals unless the oil starts to break down. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Blinky on 08/02/12 at 13:24:39 I took a look at the article you pointed us to Uno and there is a paragraph at the end that states.... "So how do you know if an oil has been designed for gasoline or diesel engines? When reading a label, look for the API (American Petroleum Institute) doughnut. In the top section of this doughnut will be a service designation. This designation will either start with an “S” (service or spark ignition) for gasoline engines or a “C” (commercial or compression ignition) for diesel engines." Well and good. Rotella carries the API designation of CJ-4/SM. Unless I am wrong, SM indicates it meets standards for all modern automobile engines with spark ignition. Even though it may be intended for diesel engines, the SM specification it meets is the same SM specification for oils intended to be used in spark engines. I would love to see a technical debate on this. However, the key word there is "debate", not argument. Thanks |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by bill67 on 08/02/12 at 13:30:28 How much ZDDP does Suzuki motorcycle oil have in it. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by rfw2003 on 08/02/12 at 13:48:17 7E7570702A2B1C0 wrote:
That is a very good question Bill, I can't seem to locate any information on that. I've done some googleing and can't seem to find any info on Suzuki oil at all regarding it's makup. R.F. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Boule’tard on 08/02/12 at 14:10:08 546F6E2C4D746F66010 wrote:
Exactly the kind of argument I was asking for, thank you. So what you (and the article) are saying is, the amount of carbon deposits left by the fuel and the amount of detergent in the oil have to be carefully balanced or else you'll lose compression. I remember hearing that some carbon deposits are good, that a little carbon residue helps with the piston ring/cylinder seal.. so that makes sense. Also, that is probably why my air compressor specifies 'ND' or 'Non-Detergent' oil.. it simply doesn't make any residue to clean up. The oil change interval probably also plays into it. I wonder if it is actually better to let the oil go long, as OF does, when running a high TBN oil in a gas engine? I am running Amsoil in a couple of engines and wonder if it is over-cleaning them.. :-/ Compression does seem good, perhaps it is not as good at it could be. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by bill67 on 08/02/12 at 14:14:27 Suzuki motorcycle oil is made by shell oil,Shell oil makes motorcycle oil,Now why would you want to use Shell Rotella instead of using their motorcycle oil.Shell Advance is real motorcycle oil. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by WD on 08/02/12 at 15:38:00 To get kind of back on track: I've had good results (in highly abused 1998 Savage) with: Castrol GTX 20W50. Rotella 15W40, Delo 15W40, Super Tech (Wal-mart brand) 15W40. Valvoline 4 stroke motorcycle 20W50 (only used it once though, was given to me). I've had lousy results (in the same bike) with: dino or synthetic 10W40, both automotive spec and bike specific formulations. Shifts rough, misses shifts, more noises, vanishing oil... Brand has not mattered. And I've tried some high dollar 10W40s. My wife Lisa's 1996 VS800 Intruder likes Rotella 15W40 and the old formula Syntec 10W40. Does not like the new Syntec at all. Or ANY of the bike specific brands we've tried (Spectro, Acterra, Valvoline 4 stroke, Amsoil, Klotz). Clutch slips, rough shifting, missed shifts, top end noise, magically vanishing oil... Try various weights and brands until you find what works best in YOUR bike. No two are exactly the same, especially lower end bikes like the Savage/S40. When I can go 2 years on HDEO or 4 hours on 10W40 synthetic, I know what I'll keep buying. I got over the "must use bike oils" real quick on the advice of a factory race mechanic. Followed his advice and 14 years later I still have never had to adjust a valve, change the clutch plates or swap the timing chain. Use the thin stuff if you must. Suzuki parts sales thanks you. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by bill67 on 08/02/12 at 18:15:55 757E7B7B2120170 wrote:
All is quite on the western front :) |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Cavi Mike on 08/02/12 at 18:20:22 3F3431316B6A5D0 wrote:
Probably for the same reason I'm going to: Price. People pay out the nose for bike stuff for some reason. Sorry but no thanks, there's no good reason why I need to pay 3x as much for something just because it's going on/in a bike. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/02/12 at 18:44:49 Bill, Shell Advance is brand new stuff for South America and Asia and only certain parts of Europe, so no data exists for it on Bobistheoilguy or on any USA bike or oil list yet -- could be nobody around here has bought any and tested any yet. I'd like to see what they put in it and how it stacks up against USA Rotella spec-wise. I betcha it costs a good bit more though ..... If you wanna look at the bottle, go here (site is in English). http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-69331-shell-advance-sx4-10w-40-four-stroke-engine-oil.aspx ;) |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Scott.aust on 08/03/12 at 00:59:31 As a newbie I think a post in the tech section is a great idea. Approved by - Ind cert - Manf cert - Users rec - Bill All very helpful, BUT.... I'm from Australia and we just don't get all the same products as you do. So will you also consider other sub sections by country if you do get this up and running ? For example - Shell XXXX. # Available in - US, Canada, Australia, Outer Mongolia etc. Manf Cert. Non Bill Aproved. Now for the serious part - consider putting oil type / specs not just the name, and a short decription, using for example - Rotella XXX 5W20 Abc, def, ghi, classification Additives - xyz Zinc (?) - 1200 ppm Etc etc etc. - designed for 2 stroke diesels, suitable for high temperature 4 stroke combustion engines. Recommended by - Tom, thingy, Harry. Not recommended by - Bill. For you in the US a name and a trip to wallmart is easy, but Some thing like this will help others in another country as we can then compare specs of what is available. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by 87 savage on 08/03/12 at 05:02:48 2720362F2F430 wrote:
Blinky, I don't see any rebuttal to your well researched post. I believe you are spot on and there is no way to argue with it. Good work!! :) |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by bill67 on 08/03/12 at 05:10:10 46656D6F6C65656C7B090 wrote:
OF I told you about it and saw the bottles before It also says motorcycles are a lot harder on oil than cars, thats why you need motorcycle oil not car or diesel oil.Shell said it it must be right. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Cavi Mike on 08/03/12 at 06:21:33 42494C4C1617200 wrote:
Shell said it because that's what will hold up in court. Off the record they would prolly say something completely different but then again, they would only tell you something off the record if you were an actual journalist/reporter; in which case you would be under obligation to not tell anyone including friends, family and surely not some random strangers on a website or risk losing your job and reputation and subsequently your career. Again, your logic is flawed. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by bill67 on 08/03/12 at 06:37:58 My logic is flawed using motorcycle oil in a motorcycle. ::) ::) ::) |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Cavi Mike on 08/03/12 at 06:52:00 That's not what I said and you know it. You're clearly trying to derail the conversation because you're losing the argument. Your logic is flawed because you think the only thing that matters is what the manufacturer said. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by bill67 on 08/03/12 at 07:06:31 The rotella manufacturer says it can be used in motorcycle.Do you believe that. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/03/12 at 07:09:48 I've been looking at the "extra additives cause issues with car cylinder walls thing" trying to find any source data on it other than that one technical consultant that was mentioned by Uno. Although it does not apply to HDEO Universal oils such as Rotella T and T-6 as they are not simple diesel oils you get the most information on this subject by Googling "problems with diesel oil in car engines" and you get listings of issues having to do with cat converters and oil viscosity being too high (cars generally use 10w30 weight oils) and every list you check into says something about the extra detergents scrubbing up the engine "too good" removing static sludge and the piston ring area carbon deposits which can lead to packed seals weeping oil due to no sludge seal and worn piston rings not getting their carbon ring helpers up above the top ring and causing more oil to get past the ring. Each listing called out a different read on the evil done by "too much detergent" and all of them seemed to be pointed at older, much worn V8 style engines. Uno's consultant is the only one found so far who says high detergent levels causes a piston wall drag performance issue -- so to find any confirmation on that you go looking for discussions on RACING oils (drag racing especially) and you find discussions that detergent laden oils don't do as well in very high HP situations compared to oils without detergents. This jives with the race world's knowledge base on oils, and explains why straight race oils have no additive packs in them for much of anything other than ZDDP antiwear (since the oil gets dumped out every few hours of running time and max hp is the total name of the game in their world). So, the gist of what I found is that diesel oil cleans up the engine. And in an old American V8 style car, that might not always be a good thing. I also found references to "acidification" due to the higher sulphur content of diesel oil. This was true with older formulations, but modern formulations such as Rotella have greatly reduced amounts of sulphur in them. And as a matter of interest, the JASO spec calls out a max sulphur content as part of their specification tests so JASO limits sulphur content to no more than normal car oils can have. In short, yes Uno's point of extra detergents increasing running drag on pistons was valid, but mostly for drag racers and race cars and such like. And I am sure that cleaning up the static sludge in an engine and causing loss of carbon deposits above piston top rings will cause greater oil consumption in theory. But I am not aware of much static sludge sitting around in our Savage engines and our big pistons and 4 valve seals pass a little oil after 15,000-20,000 miles anyway. And I do not think the amount of hp loss due to "detergency" in our 30 hp Savage engine is going to be noticeable or measurable. :) |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by bill67 on 08/03/12 at 07:15:29 Should look up problems with diesel oil in motorcycles. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Oldfeller on 08/03/12 at 07:26:31 Cavi, Wiggly Bill does the "worm on the hook" dance every time he runs out of real arguments. Get used to it, we actually used to keep a hook around here sometimes for when he gets lonely for it. He lives by throwing out distractions and asking "questions" about oils that aren't even available in the USA. Don't fall into the trap of trying to answer some of his really weird hypothetical questions -- for example I refused to reply to a hypothetical nonsense question last oil war that had me in some fictional alternate universe where I was forced to choose between two different $14 a quart bottles of funny colored oil. (in no alternate reality even remotely possible would I ever be buying any $14 a quart bottles of oil). ;) |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/03/12 at 07:37:33 5F5451510B0A3D0 wrote:
Bill, Rotella T and T-6 are HDEO Universal type oils, not simple diesel oils. All the discussion on "diesel oil this" and "diesel oil that" are pretty much pointless since we are not talking about a simple diesel only oil here. Phrase your questions in terms of HDEO Universal oils, please. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Oldfeller on 08/03/12 at 08:07:42 Proposed list of Recommended American Oils to go into the Tech Section Criteria are 1200 ppm of ZDDP, JASO rating, available at Walmart, Advance Auto Parts, O'Reilly, Autozone, cost to be less than $8 a quart for dino and less than $12 a quart for a full synthetic. Let' er rip boys, let's see your erls !!! |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Cavi Mike on 08/03/12 at 11:04:47 6E6560603A3B0C0 wrote:
If it will hold up in court when they produce documentation confirming it, I have no choice but to believe it. Do you honestly think Shell - a huge corporation - is going to risk a class action lawsuit that could cost them billions just so they can make some negligible profit off of a few open-minded people who realize motorcycle oil isn't really worth 3x as much as some readily available oils? It's Shell, not Jim-Bob's Gas Shack oil, but something tells me you'd put that right in your bike if it was labeled as a "motorcycle oil" versus a universal oil. Poor man, I feel for you. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by bill67 on 08/03/12 at 12:11:35 Cavi your probability one of McDonald"s best customer. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Cavi Mike on 08/03/12 at 12:14:59 282326267C7D4A0 wrote:
My probability of what? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/03/12 at 13:12:39 It's Billish -- you want me to translate it for you? Cavie, you buy cheap oil from Walmart so you probably eat at cheap burger joints like Greasy Mac's. (Bill only eats at exclusive French burger joints with French names like Hardee's.) :D Will you two please take a minute from your repartee' to go ahead and nominate your various oils please? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Spamy on 08/03/12 at 13:22:57 I doubt it will make to the list, but Ive been using Chevron 10/40 plain jane oil in pretty much all 7 street bikes and 10 or so dirt bikes. Never had an oil related or wear issue yet. But i do change it often. Every since I worked in the engines lab at Chevron research I started using it regularly. Its about 2-3 bucks a quart. Ive dabbled in the synthetics, semi-synthetics and higher priced stuff but never saw any benefit. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by youzguyz on 08/03/12 at 13:28:09 Started out on Mobil 1 for about 2 oil changes. Went to Rotella T6 after that. Works fine for me, gets my vote. While I don't ride really really hard, I probably have one of the highest mileage bikes around here. (around 86,000 miles) The only internal engine component that had to be replaced was the cam chain, from stretching out. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by residualsilver28 on 08/03/12 at 13:34:47 the rotella t6 here is in a blue jug now.... |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Oldfeller on 08/03/12 at 13:41:40 We got a Rotella T-6 5w40 synthetic and a Rotella T dino proposed that do happen to meet all the requirements. Chevron 10w40 does not have a JASO rating, so it fails to make the list. Next set please. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by rl153 on 08/03/12 at 13:42:52 I was using suzuki brand 10-40, but I just bought a jug of rotella t-6.I'm changing it sometime soon, thanks to this pretty impressive thread. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by rfw2003 on 08/03/12 at 13:46:12 Rotella T6 is my 1st recommendation as that is what I use. But I would use Amsoil for my 2nd choice R.F. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by 87 savage on 08/03/12 at 14:17:10 I've been using Mobil1 15/40 in my wifes 2008 with no problems, but, my 87 (I've only had it for 4 months) slips in 4th when cold so I will try the T6 per old fellers recommendation. Wish it came in a 5 quart jug! >:( |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/03/12 at 14:52:12 Ironically, Suzuki brand 10W40 fails to make the cut due to lack of 1,200 ZDDP to support the flat tappets that the Savage uses. This is sad, but it is what it is. Mobil 1 car oil is out due to not being JASO approved and for having 81 ppm of moly in it (energy star slippery stuff). If you are proposing an as yet unknown Mobil 1 JASO motorcycle oil please supply a link to the VOA on the oil and verification that it carries JASO markings on the label. Ditto if you are using a Mobil 1 of the diesel persuasion (presuming such a thing exists). Mobil 1 changes what it makes (and how it makes it) quicker than you change your underwear .... ;) |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Boule’tard on 08/03/12 at 15:06:28 I've used that mobil1 v-twin stuff, it is JASO rated but may be too expensive to make the "recommended" cut. http://www.mobiloil.com/usa-english/motoroil/oils/mobil_1_v-twin_20w-50.aspx Pretty much like Amsoil in that I like it, but probably won't buy more of it unless I can pick up someone's stash for cheap. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by bill67 on 08/03/12 at 15:36:19 Mobil racing oil want work for OF the ZDDP is 1850 :P :P :P |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Savage_Rob on 08/03/12 at 15:59:45 343F3A3A6061560 wrote:
How did you find that? In the Material Safety Data Sheet it only states that ZDDP is less than 2.5%. Did I miss it somewhere? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by bill67 on 08/03/12 at 16:29:27 3103140305073D300D00620 wrote:
How did you find that? In the Material Safety Data Sheet it only states that ZDDP is less than 2.5%. Did I miss it somewhere?[/quote] I don't know what that per cent means I've only seen numbers like 800-1800 ZDDP That was Mobil car high performance racing oil not motorcycle oil,With the 1850 ZDDP. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/03/12 at 17:53:41 So far the Recommended list stands at: (pricing comes from Walmart) Dino -- Rotella T Triple Protection 15W40 $12.99 a gallon ($3.25 a quart) Synthetic -- Rotella T-6 5W40 $21.99 a gallon ($5.50 a quart) Synthetic -- Mobil 1 Motorcycle Racing 4T 10W-40 $ 9.97 a quart Synthetic -- Mobil 1 Motorcycle V-Twin 20W-50 $ 9.97 a quart |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Oldfeller on 08/03/12 at 18:00:14 Did we ever agree about the 20w50 stuff being too thick to recommend? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Charon on 08/03/12 at 19:09:18 That's where I would have an "Approved" and a "Recommended" list. Oils which meet the JASO MA and the ZDDP requirements would be "Approved" even if they are more expensive, harder to locate, or of SAE grades like 20W-50. They would be "Recommended" if they are also of SAE grades no heavier than xxW-40, and meet the price and availability criteria. The "Recommended" list would thus be a subset of the "Approved" list. That way oils such as Amsoil, Klotz, or others (given that they can be verified to meet the requirements of the Savage engine) could "Approved" even if not on the "Recommended" list. In this way those who feel compelled to spend more money or run heavier oils can be reasonably assured their engines will survive, even if their wallets take a ding. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by rfw2003 on 08/03/12 at 19:47:56 68434A5944452B0 wrote:
I agree with this. The only reason I'm not running Amsoil is because the Rotella T6 is cheaper. My local ind cycle shop the Amsoil MC line of oils in stock so it's easy for me to get and less then the $12 per quart but when T6 is half the cost it's hard to pass that up. R.F. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/03/12 at 20:50:42 What you would then have is "all the bike oils in the world" kicking around confusing the new persons again, including all that funny colored mail in stuff. The new person wants to go buy some oil locally today that they know will work for them. Which oil can I buy locally today .... So you can see I was looking to shrink and focus the Recommended list, not expand it endlessly. Someone had mentioned not listing the 50 weights as they make extra degrees of temp rise out of some of the available hp. 20W50 is listed on the Suzuki owners manual, just with some temperature band requirements. So let it stay as it IS readily available if somebody wants to use it. Wally's cost is good at $10 so it hits inside the price range too. Me, I personally think Mobil 1 V Twin 20W50 is too thick for most parts of the country as it is a full synthetic and is NOT going to thin out any when it hits running temperatures. But it is in the manual .... ============ Let's keep it the way it is, if it is a weight inside the range of 10w40 to 20W50 and you can commonly find it at wally and the auto stores and it meets the JASO and 1200 PPM ZDDP and relatively broad $$ cost requirements let's throw it up against the wall and see if it sticks. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by ralfyguy on 08/03/12 at 22:36:44 I used to run Lucas 20W-50 MCCAIN oil before I switched to Rotella T-6. Not bad stuff and in these insane hot Oklahoma summer's certainly not misplaced. But in winter I changed to 10W-40, because when it got down to below freezing you could tell by cranking it in the morning that the stuff got thick. But now with T-6, I am a happy camper all year 'round. I would like to know how much ZDDP that Lucas oil had in it. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by 87 savage on 08/04/12 at 05:49:39 7C716B727B6A7F6C7A1E0 wrote:
Boule'tard, I followed the link you provided for the Mobil1 V-Twin motorcycle oil as I too use mobil1. I did however find a discrepancy in there data. On the page your link provides it states "Meets JASO MA" in the features & benefits. But, if you look at the chart on the Product Data Sheet: http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAUSENPVLMOMobil1_Motorcycle_Oils.aspx Only the racing oil meets JASO MA. Hmmmm, is this just a mistake on Mobil's part? Don't know but I would be more inclined to believe the data on the Product Data Sheet because the JASO MA is missing on two different parts of the chart for the V-Twin oil. Looks like only the racing oil meets JASO MA. Feedback?? :-? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by bill67 on 08/04/12 at 07:15:00 ( Did anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" lately) No I haven't I use Klotz oil. 8-) |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Boule’tard on 08/04/12 at 07:17:14 25282621363075737D7C440 wrote:
Hmm that is odd. I bet it was not JASO rated when they made the chart, then they changed the formula. Maybe there was another version that did not consider the wet clutch. Their race 4T oil is probably a better choice since it does not have that ambiguity, and is a 10W40. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/04/12 at 08:20:44 My issues with Mobil 1 is that we put it on the list as approved in August 2012 and by the time the newbies read it and go hunting for it a year or two from now -- it is changed (re-spec'ed) or gone or replaced with Mobil 1 xxxxx. But, it meets specs and is available at wally and the others, so it stuck to the wall for now. Just type the oil name and weight in and put walmart after it -- this search gives you the Wally page that tells you specs and price and availability. Currently both oils show JASO MA on Wally's infopages. So far the Recommended list stands at: (pricing comes from Walmart) Dino -- Rotella T Triple Protection 15W40 $12.99 a gallon ($3.25 a quart) Synthetic -- Rotella T-6 5W40 $21.99 a gallon ($5.50 a quart) Synthetic -- Mobil 1 Motorcycle Racing 4T 10W-40 $ 9.97 a quart Synthetic -- Mobil 1 Motorcycle V-Twin 20W-50 $ 9.97 a quart |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by WD on 08/04/12 at 08:33:45 Mobil 20W50 was designed to be run in late model dry sump Harley engines. I talked for an hour with their rep when we added it to the shop stocks. At the time I was riding a wet clutch liquid cooled v-twin (Kawasaki VN800A). Their own rep said don't sell it to guys with wet sump bikes. It was strictly for DRY sump bikes, read OLD Brit bikes, OLD CB750s and Harleys. I ran Castrol GTX 20W50 when I lived on the Gulf Coast. Per a factory mechanic's recommendation. Also ran it in TN. Had zero issues running it, but, that was in 98-01, the formula has changed since then. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/04/12 at 08:43:31 OK, bike trip is required to go to Walmart to look at the Mobil 1 bottles with the Mark 1 ocular devices, lens augmented. I also question availability in all Walmarts, so this is a backcheck for that. I find it amusing that even Wally recognises Rotella as motorcycle oil now-a-days, but Bill doesn't. http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_query=motorcycle+oil&ic=16_0&Find=Find&search_constraint=91083 For a big double hoot plus, read the 7 comments on Rotella T-6 on the Walmart page --- do you think bikers have discovered the stuff or what? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/04/12 at 09:08:35 Controversy continues on Mobil 1 V-twin 20W50 --- the Bobistheoilguys keep seeing moly in the VOAs that they have been doing while waiting for the promised change to zero energy star additives from Mobil to actually take place (Mobil has put JASO MA on the bottle, btw, but still have some moly in the actual mix). http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1544495 I vote we don't list it as recommended because the weight is too high for our bike year round and it still has moly in it. Mobil 1 is notorious on Bob's for lying to their customer base (or not being forthcoming when they change things if you prefer the milder wording). Part of this issue is Mobil 1 products are bottled at multiple plants, which keep altering formulations slightly based on component costs and availability (and I suspect on getting individual lots to pass internal testing). Hey Joe, V-twin lot 23346 isn't quite passing the drag brake test, viscosity is high end so that isn't it -- toss 80 ppm of moly in it and let it mix all night, then retest it in the morning. And WD is totally right, the original Mobil 1 V twin Harley oil had all sorts of energy star stuff in it. No wonder I got the idea in my head that 20w50 oils were tied to clutch failures, no doubt it was. I know quite a few were using it as it was the hot new synthetic oil for a year or three there .... And, do you think Mobil 1 ever TOLD anybody about this little boo-boo of theirs or paid for any of the bike repairs that were due to their little boo boo? No-ne-new-nu ..... nope |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/04/12 at 09:19:07 So far the Recommended list stands at: (pricing comes from Walmart) Dino -- Rotella T Triple Protection 15W40 $12.99 a gallon ($3.25 a quart) Synthetic -- Rotella T-6 5W40 $21.99 a gallon ($5.50 a quart) Synthetic -- Mobil 1 Motorcycle Racing 4T 10W-40 $ 9.97 a quart struck for moly still in the mix on latest VOAs -- see Bobistheoilguy VOAs |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by 87 savage on 08/04/12 at 12:40:47 For the sake of the list, I nominate........ drum role please :D ..................... Valvoline 4 Stroke 10W-40, and 20W-50 Motorcycle oils http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/4_stroke_motorcycle.pdf 20W-50: $4 bucks a quart by the case at Wally world. 10W-40: $8 bucks a quart by the case at Wally world. As well as : VALVOLINE 10W-40, and 20W-50 4-STROKE SYNTHETIC MOTORCYCLE OIL http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/4_stroke_synthetic.pdf 10W-40: $8.50 bucks a quart at Wally world. 20W-50: $6 bucks a quart by the case at Wally world. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/04/12 at 17:50:04 7E737D7A6D6B2E2826271F0 wrote:
=============== First, they fail the "available to buy locally today" rule because you have to ORDER them by the case on line and then wait for them to show up at your local Wally. These are not stocked items. Second, they only claim to have the SL car level of ZDDP in them, that is 1,100 ppm of ZDDP. This doesn't meet our 1,200 ppm limit, and the Valvoline products apparently can deliver much less. According to the most current BITOG VOA's Valvoline is perhaps subbing in some sort of car based calcium wear package instead of the ZDDP. (note: Valvoline results are very sparse and have multi-year gaps in the data flow, so let's watch all our assumptions a bit accordingly -- this applies to me too) In short, the original Valvoline motorcycle products seem to have been their old SL formulations of car oil that were submitted and did pass the JASO clutch slippage test. And now days the data says they are shipping out their SM or SN car grade product level with reduced ZDDP .... and perhaps subbing in some sort of car based calcium wear package instead. This does not make it optimal for the Savage engine, and the most recent VOA's say the Valvoline's reality falls short of our SuzukiSavage.com 1,200 ppm ZDDP standard -- and that was if it they had it in stock and you didn't have to order it by the case on line ..... Do any of the local auto parts stores stock this stuff? Up to you to find it in stock at a parts store and then get some CURRENT VOA data that shows it even gets up to 1,100 ppm of ZDDP which is all it claims to ever have had in it ..... not listed |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/04/12 at 18:14:36 And, as mgf by mgf shows up BS'ing the purchasing public, you begin to understand why new consumer oil watchdog groups have sprung up over the last 5 years that are routinely testing consumer oils now. BITOG watches oil like a hawk. They routinely debunk Mobil 1 products as the colors of the caps keep changing (reformulated yet again, I am afraid). BITOG and every trucker forum and most motorcycle forums watch Rotella products like a hawk too. If Rotella changes, you WILL hear about it. Shell gets threating letters about them changing Rotella, ever. Folks like it the way it is ..... leave it alone. Real problem here is OUR GOVERNMENT -- playing in areas where they know not, nor care not, what the real world effects of their eco-crazy rules will be. Now, if I were Valvoline, would I want to admit I was shipping a government neutered product as a motorcycle oil? Hell no. Do you begin to get a flavor of what you are up against when you go out to buy motorcycle oil locally? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by ralfyguy on 08/04/12 at 18:56:12 I'm just glad I made the switch to T-6. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/04/12 at 19:04:08 And what the dickens is the link up between Valvoline and Lucas ??? You search Valvoline in BITOG and half the results that pop up are Lucas test results? Anybody got any clue here? =========================== Looks like Shell has bought both Quaker State, Pennzoil and Jiffy Lube. Ashland Oil has bought up Valvoline and a whole bunch of the other smaller names are all being snapped up now by the big guys in a big assed buying frenzy .... this is gonna get confusing pretty durn quick I do believe. Your VOA results from more than 2 years ago might be dubious at this stage as our "normal" competitive oil brands are gonna become just a bottle swap on the same bottling lines. These oil companies keep buying each other and consolidating their production facilities, so no wonder your XX brand oil suddenly starts to look like YY brand (because it is). http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/ashland-inc-history/ http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article000062742.cfm |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/04/12 at 22:24:58 As long as they leave my Rotella alone,, Ill keep smilin,, |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Charon on 08/05/12 at 06:42:17 I noticed the date on the item about Shell buying Pennzoil/Quaker State was from 2002, ten years ago. Presumably that has long since happened. I have seen a lot on this forum about the flat-tappet needs of the Savage/S40. Other boards have discussions about the same problems of older cars and trucks. I haven't looked for discussions about other motorcycles. But I notice there are lots of other motorcycles with similar valve actuations. All have cams operating rockers, or pushrods, or directly operating the valves. I don't believe very many have rollers running on the cams. I'd have to assume the problems caused by the lack of ZDDP would be quite widespread in the motorcycling industry as well. We might see lot of older - and even current - motorcycle engines not lasting much longer. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by 87 savage on 08/05/12 at 07:32:18 Ok Old feller, I have to play devil's advocate here. [smiley=evil.gif] This thread has been very interesting and entertaining. And while It is obvious by your comments that you have done your homework on this subject, I have to agree with Charon and Rtf2003 that we should have a 2 part list with different criteria for each. Although I am sure there are many folks who change their oil on a last minute whim and need to find a good oil quick, if someone is going through the trouble of consulting our list I believe that is a buyer who will take whatever measures he/she needs to get the oil they feel is best for the bike. I also believe that not everyone is comfortable using a perceived "diesel" oil in their bike. Now don't get me wrong, I went right out and bought a jug of T6 based on your recommendation because I recognize that it is a superior product and that is what is important to me. But, for the guy that insists the jug says "Motorcycle Oil" on it, Rotella doesn't cut it. So, I agree, we should have an "Approved list" AND a "Recommended" list. Let the Bike owner decide if he wants to buy it at Wally world or online. My last point is back to Valvoline. I probably wont be able to convince you to put it on your list because the list criteria is so narrow as to only include Rotella and Mobil1. And based on your comments about Mobil1 it seems you allow it on the list begrudgingly. :) Nonetheless, Valvoline "Motorcycle oil does meet JASO test criteria. Does contain ZDDP although not to the level you have deemed sufficient. And the full line of dino, blended, and full synthetic IS available locally at Napa. If we are really trying to make a list of oils that a "newbie" could check to see what was a suitable oil to put in his/her Suzy, than Valvoline is definately good enough to be on it IMHO. Again,Oldfeller, thanks for starting this post as it got me researching and when you research you learn. Feedback anyone? ::) |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by bill67 on 08/05/12 at 07:43:51 OF thinks that no one on SuzukiSavage ever went past 2nd grade the way he's doing this thing. One thing he for got. If it don't come in a blue or white jug it out. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/05/12 at 07:47:44 Honda single cam forum would represent the largest forum for the oldest flat tappet bikes, the sandcast CB 750 would be the oldest bike there. http://forums.sohc4.net/ ==================== My mind keeps drifting back to Valvoline. Does Valvoline represent the current norm of "motorcycle oils" with no more than 1,100 ppm of ZDDP in it? This use of calcium and magnesium (which used to be thought of as "detergents") is it really any good as an anti-wear agent? There ARE calcium based add packs that are becoming more commonly used in car oils --- are they effective in flat tappet Suzuki Savage engines? So many questions about my search yesterday into Valvoline. I have lots of Used Oil data I could go look at, but that is used oil so your ZDDP ppm is partially depleted. I see you found Valvoline in stock at a NAPA store. That's good. No, I didn't grudgingly accept Mobil 1, I just don't trust it to stay the same for very long (with good reason). I listed the Vtwin stuff but WD was the one to point out the energy star stuff that is still in it. As far as listing "all the various bike oils" -- forget it. May as well not even have a recommended list. Most of them, you can't get them locally when you need them. The intent for this list is to give a newbie a place to go to get a good oil right now just as easily as getting whatever wrong car stuff he has been using. We want to do this in order to keep him from hurting his bike's engine by using the wrong oils. Oh well, it is Sunday Morning August 5th, I think I'll go watch my DVR'd Olympics from last night for an hour or so. Then I am going to get on my Savage and go look at the motorcycle oil sections at Advanced, Autozone, O'Reillys, and Wally to see what is actually there any more. They gots to be selling something for a motorcycle oil ..... |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by verslagen1 on 08/05/12 at 08:59:08 While oil is a touchy subject in any forum... from what I can gleam, they don't recommend blue jug, but do white jug. There seems to be issues with synthetics and the old bikes. And when you go and make your list of ready available, on the whim oil change, oils, include the methods for getting all of the old oil out due to possible compatibility issues. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/05/12 at 10:29:09 I'm Back .... My local Wally Supercenter has deleted it's motorcycle oil display space completely and "no longer carry motorcycle oils". Ain't that a kick, but it is in line with Wally's online system. You can order it, but they don't stock it (except for Rotella products and I think that was accidental, not on purpose as the jugs are sitting with the main gallon jugs of oil, just like always) Autozone still has a motorcycle oil display that contains the old bottles of Castrol 4T Motorcycle (dino) in 10w40 and 20w50 with a service API listing SH and SG. JASO marked, no claims for ZDDP listed. $6.99 a quart. Autozone also carries Valvoline Motorcycle 4 stroke (dino) in 10w40 and 20w50 with a service API listing SF, SG and SJ . JASO marked, no claims for ZDDP listed. $5.99 a quart. Autozone also carries the old Mobil 1 motorcycle product line for $9.99 a quart. Yup, Mobil 1 is changing up the bike oils yet again -- which one of you guys went and changed your underwear ??? Advanced Auto Parts had a motorcycle oil section containing the exact same dino oils as Autozone, but with additional oils added to the mix. These were Valvoline 4T Racing synthetic in 10w40 and 20w50 rated "Exceeds API Services SJ/SG/SF" and is JASO MA rated. $9.88 a quart. Castrol Power RS Racing 4T which is a synthetic that "Exceeds API SL" and is JASO MA rated. $9.99 a quart. And they had the NEW and IMPROVED Mobil 1 Racing 4T which has been "reformulated and improved" yet again. This new black bottle is in 10w40 and 20w50 and you struggle to read what API grades the new bottle claims to honor as the print is very very small. But it is NEW and IMPROVED yet again ..... So Advanced has a better selection of bike oils than Autozone. O'Reilly was different, they showcased Lucas motorcycle oil products which get terrible terrible reviews on BITOG. They also carried the same Castrol and Mobil 1 products that Advanced Auto Parts did, so they did have some relatively better bike oil for the more knowledgeable to buy. BUT, they had the Lucas dino and synthetics showcased and priced a buck cheaper, so I would think they have a special arrangement with Lucas of some kind. ===================== What did I learn from my little day trip to bike oil land? Bike oils are now quoting the old SF, SG, SH and SJ standards so you have to guess once again how much ZDDP they actually carry inside them. The oil manufacturers are only listing specs on what they want you to know, and ZDDP isn't apparently something you should know. Bike oils are constantly churning the bottles, the names and the associated claims. Independent VOA analysis isn't keeping up with the churn, it lags behind helplessly. The fact O'Reilly is showcasing Lucas motorcycle oil products scares the hummy out of me -- that is some sorry sorry oil once you look at the VOA and UOA data on BITOG (way way puny like a SM SN car oil). Who has a ZDDP content listing for the various API grades? I know the SF-SJ are obsolete grades, but some data as to ZDDP content back then must still exist (although when you list them all up through SJ you get to go as low as 1,000 ppm because SJ was when the lowering began) ========================== Now, how far do you want to lower our SuzukiSavage Recommended ZDDP level ??? Pick now, before we go through all these new bottles and new API claims because some of them are going to be a lot less than 1,200 ppm of ZDDP. And conversely, the racing motorcycle stuff might well be higher .... ..... we can hope, anyway ;) |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/05/12 at 11:08:30 Getting ready for the great debate, here is some of the history on ZDDP in the older obsolete API service grades. Gasoline motor oil history: API service classification SH motor oils were the last gasoline motor oils without minimum phosphorus level regulation.† Phosphorus/Zinc levels in these old oils ranged from 1400 to 1600 ppm and provided good anti-wear protection. OF But it was market driven/voluntary, as there was no enforced minimum ZDDP API requirement at that time. In 1997, the API first regulated Phosphorus levels in gasoline engine oils to a maximum 1000 ppm for API service classification SJ.† The most current API service classification for gasoline oil is SM, and was implemented in 2004.† The API requires a minimum phosphorus level for SM motor oils of 600 ppm and a maximum of 800 ppm. Whee doogies !!! Now, commonly when you multi-list API specs on an oil, the most modern grade rules. So, a potential dirty trick on the bike oil front is to list say, SJ/SG/SF and then give them an oil that meets 1,000 ppm ZDDP as that is "legal" for the oil given the SJ is the most current grade listed. Ain't that a kick !!! So, lets do a Billspeak translation of a SJ/SG/SF API spec range. SF & SG had no minimum ZDDP requirement listed in their specs. SJ did have a maximum ZDDP spec of 1,000 ppm. So, 1,000 ppm of ZDDP OR SOMEWHAT LESS does technically meet all the requirements of SJ/SG/SF. :D :D :D Now, how much ZDDP is actually in there -- you will have to wait for somebody to post an actual VOA to find out. =============== For another example, let's Billspeak the claims for Castrol Power RS Racing 4T synthetic oil. Castrol Power RS Racing 4T which is a synthetic that "Exceeds API SL" and is JASO MA rated. Duh, it has more than 800 ppm of ZDDP and it passes the clutch slip testing required by JASO ?? :D :D :D Simply Marvellous !!! as Billy Crystal would say Having seen the current crop of bike oils and seen the bright fresh new bottles with the new API claims, I remain dubious about most of them because of the Billspeak on the labeling. Please dig up a current VOA if you want to include one of these oils on the list. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by 87 savage on 08/05/12 at 14:04:37 Well Oldfeller, I am going to have to back you on the Wally world oil isle. I was just at Walmart with the wife and mosied over to the auto dept. Sure as heck not one bottle or jug of motorcycle oil of any brand to be had! Although a buddy of mine 1/2 hr from me in a bigger town says they have a few left in his Walmart. Maybe it is a seasonal thing? The Walmarts up here in Maine seem to change the oil isle around as often as Mobil reformulates their oil. ;D So if one were to go to shop for appropriate oil for the Savage (around here anyway) you would have 3 choices: 1)Rotella T, 2)Rotella T6, or 3) Go to an auto parts store. Speaking of auto parts stores, was this a backdoor endorsement for Castrol?? :-? 74575F5D5E57575E493B0 wrote:
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/05/12 at 15:27:51 87, I think Wally just decided they didn't sell enough to dedicate the shelf space to holding 4 different kinds of motorcycle oil through the holiday seasons -- but you are right, early next spring the motorcycle oil space may well return. Pick which one of the new bottle crew you like and dig up a VOA on it. I'm gonna go for Castrol Power RS Racing 4T and see what I can find. ============== 3/4 hour later =============== Castrol Power RS Racing 4T has absolutely NO voa or uoa information anywhere. It will take a while, 6 months at least ...... (and for Castrol to leave the bottle alone that long) .... for some voa/uoa data to accumulate. Castrol's MSDS sheets show no information on ZDDP other than it is in the oil at some amount level. Castrol makes no detailed or competitive claims for their Power RS Racing 4T oil as far as what's in it whatsoever. It is a closed book. ================================= ;) Check the BITOG voa data on Lucas motorcycle oils and you will understand my point. An unknown mebbe dubious Valvoline or Castrol is miles and miles up on a completely known to be butt ugly & totally sorry Lucas oil product. One you wonder about, the other you COMPLETELY KNOW is just a sorry SM/SN car oil in disguise. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/05/12 at 15:54:29 Im lazy, I know, Im not reading this super carefully, but so far, what Im getting is,, Rotella T, white jug, is the oil for me, |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by rl153 on 08/05/12 at 16:37:12 Is it true once you go synthetic you can't go back? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/05/12 at 17:22:43 ;D No, you can flip back & forth between syn and dino until you either grow hair on your palms or else mebbe you go blind first .... Seriously, old bike seals and old bike gaskets will leak more with synthetic oils, especially old Honda seals and gaskets. Verslagen flipped through a bunch of oil brands one time in the same engine that was a BIG oil consumer, ask him about the "can't go back" question. He may have first hand knowledge on the subject. ========== Got one that may be worthy of the list ZDDP ppm wise. availability sucks though .... no JASO either. Is Mobil 1 Racing 0W-50 good for roller and flat tappet cams? Mobil 1 Racing oils offer boosted levels of anti-wear protection (nominal zinc level of 1850 ppm) for extra engine protection in highly loaded flat tappet engine designs. You say that Mobil 1 Racing oils are not for street use. Why is that? Does that mean I can't use these oils if my race car is also my daily driver? Automotive street use oils that meet the latest industry standards are required to have a lower level of Zinc and Phosphorus anti-wear chemistries than oils formulated years ago. The latest automotive street use engine oils are designed to be compatible with emission control equipment. Mobil 1 Racing oils are formulated with anti-wear (Zinc/Phosphorus) chemistries at twice the level of automotive street oils to provide enhanced protection of highly loaded valve train systems found in some race engines. Based on the high level of anti-wear chemistries, Mobil 1 Racing oils are not recommended for street use. Where can I buy the Mobil 1 Racing oils? And in what size containers? Mobil 1 Racing oils are available to buy online at the Mobil 1 Racing Store. Package sizes include quarts (6 quarts per case) as well as 55-gallon drums and full pallets for race teams and small businesses. :D Jest kiddin' You can buy Vavoline Racing dino based 20w50 locally a whole lot easier and cheaper and it will be just as use limited as this Mobil 1 racing oil would be. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by TestPro on 08/05/12 at 17:34:54 Has anybody used Royal Purple 20W50 in the Savage? If so, what results? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by rfw2003 on 08/05/12 at 17:39:51 0E07140B0C0753505B5B620 wrote:
Yes and No, alot depends on how long you use the syn vrs dino and also what quality of the oil was. Syn oil swells the seals differently then dino oil does plus most quality Syn oils clean better then dino oils do, But if your not changing your oil at the proper time after the change this could also be a factor as this could lead to seal contamination and wear your seals out quicker as well. R.F. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/05/12 at 17:51:49 3E3C6E6567693C3A0C0 wrote:
Bill is our eggspurt on the funny colored overly expensive oils, so perhaps he can tell you. How much does that stuff cost a quart again ?? It might be too low rent for Bill to have even tried out .... he likes really really expensive oil. (More $$$$ More betterer, sez Bill) |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by TestPro on 08/05/12 at 18:13:25 Used 20W50 back in the day for my quarter-mile cars. With South Florida having two seasons, hot and humid-hot, started running the stuff in my 06 for the past two years. Runs about 10 bucks a quart at Pep-Boys. No leaks. Figure the air-cooled engine here could use the help. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/05/12 at 18:28:46 You guys do realize we lost our one and only fully approved Mobil 1 JASO motorcycle 10w40 oil product today due to reformulation, don't you? No point in listing the old Mobil 1 JASO oil since it's unknown spec'd replacement is already on the shelves in 2 out of 4 places that sell motorcycle oils locally and Mobil isn't giving out any product details yet on the JASO "new and improved" replacement (much less anybody having actually done a VOA on it yet). If this sort of asinine & unnecessary reformulation nonsense continues unabated we will only ever have but one STABLE PRODUCT FAMILY of fully tested and approved and "known to work well in the Suzuki Savage" Recommended Oils that we can show to our newbies. Everybody else keeps on changing up their formulations once every spring and once every fall, or else at least once a year sometime or another ..... so we will never be keep up with the VOAs because by the time there are some VOA data sheets the oil in question will be changing formulations yet again. :-? Thoughts? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by WD on 08/05/12 at 22:17:34 Mobil 1 automotive spec red top 20W50 was THE oil for years when I rode Kawasaki v-twins. Worked great, until they screwed with the formula. 15 wiped out clutches on one forum over a two week period sounded THAT blend's death knell. If the oil you think about using meets current HD specs, don't use it in an older style engine. Shovelhead and newer were available with roller lifters and roller rockers. As long is it is oil, they'll run it. Your antique valve train won't. I know from my own bikes that Castrol Actevo and Spectro/Golden Spectro (synthetic) are a bad idea. Ditto any of the Quaker State or Pennzoil off the shelf car/truck oils (waxy and/or disappear in a hurry). Cost me a VN800 engine, blew the con rod bearings. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by 87 savage on 08/06/12 at 02:08:49 71525A585B52525B4C3E0 wrote:
Why did you do this to me Oldfeller? Prior to getting involved in this conversation and doing some research, and then more research, and then even more research to try and add to the list, I have come to realize just how hard it is to find a consistent reliable oil for the Savage. I used to stumble along happily with my Mobil1 15W-50 car oil without a care in the world. Unfortunately it was the slipping of the clutch in my 87 Savage that prompted me to read this post in the first place. My wife's 08 doesn't slip (yet) I never really put much thought into the claims of "new and reformulated", I guess I just believed it was marketing, you know, a shiny new package to catch your eye in a sea of different oils in the oil isle. The oil isle used to be a happy place for me until I came to understand that all the hype on the backs of those No 2 plastic jugs is ambiguous at best. So thanks for nothing! ;) Anyway, let's just hope Rotella doesn't reformulate. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Scott.aust on 08/06/12 at 02:21:18 How do you think I feel, we don't even get most of the stuff you are discussing ! |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by 87 savage on 08/06/12 at 02:31:58 1828243F3F652A3E383F4B0 wrote:
What is available for decent oil down there? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/06/12 at 06:11:04 Yup, I'm a right meanie -- told them budding Ryca builders their bikes might hurt their wrists, inner thighs and backs after a half hour or so of riding them too. (was based on testimony from the 20 somethings that had just finished their RYCAs and were just starting to ride them some) Warned the average age SuzukiSavage.com 50+ year olds it wasn't such a good idea to build a very uncomfortable RYCA out of their fairly comfortable Savage. Reminded them that our purpose built bobbers get more comfortable rather than less (you pick your big assed Hurley seat for comfort and you set it up to fit your own leg length and arm reach) and that kit built RYCAs simply aren't comfortable for anybody (built not to be). Was convicted as a "hater" and was sent to Tartarus to swim in the pig poop for a one month period fer that little expose. Remember, no good deed goes unpunished .... ::) Being fair, RYCA responded by offering up some bobber kits and other construction styles that might be more comfortable to ride than the original RYCA cafe kit bike, but since no-one has built and ridden any of these we really don't know for sure yet. Now I've went and done told the newbies showing up lately that their habits of slamming anything that pours into their Savage engine might well be the cause of the "clicky - knocky" they got going on with their engine. ......... mean, jest plain mean :-? What should piss them newbies off royally is the Suzuki brand oil the dealership is using to service their bikes DOES NOT MEET THE ZDDP REQUIREMENTS FOR THE SAVAGE ENGINE EITHER. I'm gonna to ride on over to Pep Boys and look at their motorcycle oil display and see if their is anything they regularly stock that can tide us over until some VOAs get posted on all the rest of this brand new "reformulated & new and improved" motorcycle oil nonsense we got going on. Until then, forget the list ---- ain't got anything much to put on it. Since I like the Rotella products if we put out a list with only that on it ol'Bill would be clamoring that it was all bias and unfair. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by bill67 on 08/06/12 at 06:17:50 What is the zddp in Suzuki high performance oil.That Suzuki recommends for this motorcycle. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/06/12 at 06:34:24 454E4B4B1110270 wrote:
Suzuki is buying "packaged oil" from SOPUS (yes, that's Shell Oil Products United States) that appears to be an SL automobile formulation from its internals. Suzuki gets slammed for giving it a SH/SJ rating, but as I explained before SJ says "no more than 1,000 ppm of ZDDP and SH HAD no minimum number to it, so this oil actually does meet the SH/SJ rating that is on the bottle. Suzuki is no better, no worse than any of the rest of the "motorcycle oil" clowns right now with their funny & conflicting old obsolete API standards. Still, the oil has way way too little ZDDP to support the flat tappets in a Savage engine. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=1413474 |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by bill67 on 08/06/12 at 06:39:27 Klotz and amsoil have 1400 Zddp,Thats why I stick to the premium oils.You get what you pay for. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/06/12 at 06:41:35 The rest of us need some oil that we can buy locally that doesn't require us to put our first born child up for sale to get it ..... Right now the only "proven" locally available JASO oil that does meet the Savage requirements is Rotella T and Rotella T-6 which is available everywhere and doesn't cost a bunch either. We will find others, I am sure of it. It will just take some time for the VOAs to show up and mebbe some of our Brand XX fan boys are going to have to part with $20 to get some VOAs done to prove their Brand XX labeling isn't full of pig poo like so many are now-a-days. (It is really bad when oil corporations use SF/SH/SJ ratings to lie to the purchasing public. You tell us SF and SH and visions of 1,400 to 1,600 ppm ZDDP start dancing in our heads, but then you weasel through the loopholes to give us less than 1,000 ppm and THAT JUST SUCKS ROCKS to me) |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by bill67 on 08/06/12 at 06:44:22 You can run premium oil 2-3 times as long so it doesn't cost anymore.If you are cheap. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Oldfeller on 08/06/12 at 07:23:22 Bill, Our air cleaner systems and oil filtration systems aren't good enough for running the same sump of oil for that long. Silica (fine dust particles) builds up in our oil to the point we have to dump it out yearly just to get the silica out of the engine. People who run these dry cone style filters may need to do it more often (dry cones pass more fine dust particles than the stock filter does). We don't even put a nick in the add packs for Rotella or any of the rest of the oils that do have enough ZDDP in them to keep our cams and tappets happy. We don't run them long enough. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by built2last66 on 08/06/12 at 17:08:23 Glad there's another oil war, I was getting bored from all this college studying crap... |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by 87 savage on 08/06/12 at 17:27:49 486B6361626B6B6275070 wrote:
Speaking of air filters, I understand that whatever gets by the air filter and doesn't get carried out in the exhaust ends up in the oil, and eventually the oil filter. Given that, what does everybody consider to be the best oil filter (and air filter) choice. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/06/12 at 17:51:23 Stock air filter is restrictive and robs hp, but it does a good job of catching everything but the very finest kind of dust. This passes through and makes it into your oil, but is not stopped by your oil filter (way way smaller than 10 microns which is all the oil filter says it will always stop) Now these stock air filters do get plugged up and require a reverse blow out with an air gun every 6 months. Eventually they get plugged up and then they cost you like $39.00 dollars to replace now-a-days. K&N makes a 1/4" thick thin oiled cotton mesh trapped inside screening sort of folded filter that fits in the same space for $49.00 that requires cleaning and re-oiling every six months or so. Oiled filters work better, but a 1/4" filter has very little carrying capacity so they get dry and start to pass all sorts of stuff, being only 1/4" thick and really really dependent on that oil to work correctly. Oiled media filters have a better chance of catching really fine dust than any other sort of filter media, so I made myself up one with a 2" thick compressed poly-fiber mesh which is coated in thick oil which can run for like 2 years before requiring attention and even then it only gets dirty less than half way through the thickness. This gives me improved air filtration and is still low air resistance compared to a stock filter. Here is the tech tread. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1183640744 Improved oil filtration requires you to remove sub micron sized ferrous wear particles to keep them from recirculating in the oil. Oil filters that can do this fine sub-micron job are expensive and they plug up fairly quickly. So I went a different way to achieve the same goal. Here is that tech thread. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1197231468 =============== Based on these improvements in very fine dust air filtration and super fine oil ferrous particle trapping I have no issues with running T-6 from one year to the next on my bike. I still can't stomach going any longer than a calender year, I jest can't bring myself to do it. I know I can, I just really don't want to. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/07/12 at 10:10:08 Which Mobil 1 statement is the lie this time ..... "Reformulated .... new and improved .... improved protection ....." or the statements in the FAC #3 Why did you change the name of Mobil 1 MX4T 10W-40 to Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40? Is the product formulation different? Mobil 1 MX4T 10W-40 was renamed because the product is known as Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40 outside the US. Be assured that no changes to the Mobil 1 MX4T 10W-40 formulation occurred during this name change. Same great product, new name. Now, we understand damage control and Mobil 1 has certainly done itself some damage with this surprise brand and bottle reformulation change up. There is obviously a pre-existing European product called Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40, so if you are using the specs for that European product based product then you are selling the stuff off the European regulatory bodies, not the USA API based standards. Or else you are selling two different products out of the same name and same bottle ..... Or else mebbe you are Billshutting us all yet again .... Miss Clarol, only your hairdresser knows for sure .... |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Oldfeller on 08/07/12 at 10:19:40 So far the Recommended list stands at: (pricing comes from Walmart) Dino -- Rotella T Triple Protection 15W40 $12.99 a gallon ($3.25 a quart) Synthetic -- Rotella T-6 5W40 $21.99 a gallon ($5.50 a quart) Mobil 1 reformulated itself, the new oil has yet to be VOA tested Synthetic -- Mobil 1 Motorcycle V-Twin 20W-50 $ 9.97 a quart |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by bill67 on 08/07/12 at 10:58:42 OF Suzuki does not recommend 5w40 in the S40==== OF get out your LS650 Suzuki owner's manual. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Oldfeller on 08/07/12 at 11:43:50 Back in 1987, Suzuki didn't say anything at all about synthetic oils because other than the very early Mobil 1 PAO formulations the synthetics weren't broadly available yet. 5w40 Rotella T-6 is well known here on the list, most of your Mod staff use it and quite a few of your regular posters. It is a JASO MA oil. If you are afraid of the synthetic weight's first number (which simply says it flows better than dino can when it is very cold outside) then by all means use the dino Rotella T. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by bill67 on 08/07/12 at 11:53:30 My Suzuki's owners manual was printed in 2005 not 1987. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/07/12 at 12:08:25 That's nice, mine was printed in '02 and they still say the same thing they did in '87 -- recommend a API SF oil, etc. Same oil grade chart is in all of them that shows 10w40 being recommended for all seasons with the 20w50 weight catching some low temperature ranges where you shouldn't use it. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Charon on 08/07/12 at 12:31:39 If you want an "SF" grade oil, I might have found one. I went to the Walmart in Hastings, NE, yesterday just to look around at their oils. I looked mostly at the 10W-40 grades. I found an oil sold under the brand "Accel" put out by a Warren company with an Omaha address. This oil is sold as meeting SF specs, and specifically says on the bottle it is for cars made no later than 1988. Only the 10W-40 grade made this claim. No mention of JASO MA, nor of ZDDP. I didn't make specific note of the price, but it was in line with other conventional oils. While I was looking around, a clerk came by and asked if I had found what I came for. I told him I was looking for JASO MA, and he said the only oils they had were the two Rotella oils. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Oldfeller on 08/07/12 at 12:32:54 http://www.motorcycleanchor.com/motorcycle/how_to/mc_oil.html#Oil1101 This set of pages is a very good overview of what is happening to motorcycle oils and it seems to be both current and well maintained. Go up to the top and start at BASIC and read through INTEMEDIATE then you will have the basis to understand ADVANCED. This is a cut from ADVANCED BRANDS CHANGING OIL SPECS UNNOTICED Several of the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers sell their own "house" brand of oil through their dealer networks. In some cases, these house brands have recently been reformulated to API SJ and/or API SL, which may not be compatible with your motorcycle (specifically, if your motorcycle engine calls for API SH or earlier, such as an API SF/SG rating). Suzuki brand motor oil is a perfect example; their standard 10w40 formulation recently changed from being API SF/SG to being an API SL-rated oil, which is thus unsuitable for most older bikes, and even some of Suzuki's newest models (such those which are air-cooled and/or air-oil cooled - such as '00 - '05 Bandit 600, and '98 - '05 Katana 600 & 750 engines). |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/07/12 at 14:16:14 Charon, http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2559814 I wouldn't knock on it -- it has better specs than Suzuki Brand 10W40 motorcycle oil has right now. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Charon on 08/07/12 at 17:06:43 OF, I was neither knocking nor praising the Accel oil. I was simply pointing out its existence. It is the first oil I have seen with a self-proclaimed "SF" rating, and as such I thought it might be of interest. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Oldfeller on 08/07/12 at 17:51:12 Didn't think you were knocking on it, I was also saying it was worth looking at. Issue remains with the SF and the SG and the SH is that these standards did not call out a minimum amount of ZDDP at all -- just a maximum amount. Also, the SF standard is obsolete and is not enforced by ANYONE any more. Warren Petroleum (makers of Walmart SuperTech) is reputable though, and they meet whatever the standards are when they exist. So what is the standard that exists for SF since API doesn't use it or enforce it or even publish it any more? Warren apparently can publish "SF specs" and then adhere to them. And, what are these claims? Here they are, 850 ppm zinc, 720 phosphorous. They might exceed it, but they won't ever put in less. http://www.wd-wpp.com/upload/saved/Accel_1_PCMO_SpecSheet.pdf ==================== ;) Now, let's talk about good sounding advertising claims and motor oil a little bit. Not much, just a little. http://www.pqiamerica.com/June2012/maxiguardjune2012.html |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by 87 savage on 08/07/12 at 18:22:31 2C0F0705060F0F0611630 wrote:
Holy smoke! Talk about crap oil. Sure looks like is is at least partially used oil. I've seen that stuff in stores in the past but it was always bottom shelf in the bargain basement or surplus stores so luckily I never bought any. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by rl153 on 08/07/12 at 18:23:06 OF ,my bike has been running for 6 years (5k mi) with too low a level of ZDDP ,and ticks when hot . Do you think irreversable damage has been done by this? By the way I changed the oil to rotella T-6 today, I think it runs slightly quieter altho still ticks . Thanks |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by ralfyguy on 08/07/12 at 20:53:50 4C414F485F591C1A14152D0 wrote:
Holy smoke! Talk about crap oil. Sure looks like is is at least partially used oil. I've seen that stuff in stores in the past but it was always bottom shelf in the bargain basement or surplus stores so luckily I never bought any. [/quote] No kidding! That stuff is only good for pouring it over wooden fence posts in the pasture to keep them from rotting away! |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by rfw2003 on 08/07/12 at 20:56:00 40636B696A63636A7D0F0 wrote:
Hrmm, might send a few cases of that to my ex wife 8-) |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by WD on 08/08/12 at 16:29:43 Ah, engine oil for the poor saps still running slant 6 Mopars. I've been known to top off my 318 powered truck with the stuff drained from the bikes. Or bar oil. Or gear oil. Or whatever else I can grab easily when it starts clattering. You can run any grade of generic garbage oil in an old Dodge. You know... Drips Oil Drops Grease Everywhere... ;) Kinda like my Savage. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by denistheruski on 08/14/12 at 16:59:06 51584B5453580C0F04043D0 wrote:
I second this question. As a newbie, could someone describe how loud the ticking is and whether it gets louder with higher RPMs. Basically, how do we identify this ticking and has irreversible damage been done if we hear it? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Oldfeller on 08/14/12 at 21:52:51 Think of it of being about the same as valve noise, except it is persistent and does not go away when you adjust the valves. It gets louder with time. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by MeLikeBike on 09/01/12 at 16:21:07 55767E7C7F76767F681A0 wrote:
Until when? Count me among the n00bs who has ticking after the valve adjustment. What will fix it? New oil? New valves? New engine? |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by Serowbot on 09/01/12 at 18:03:12 You guys are worrying too much... Ticking is going to sound different depending on,... how close you hold your head, your hearing, how loud yer' muffler is, what helmet you wear, whether you have a windshield, if the chrome covers are still on, temp,... and finally, how much you worry about it... Don't worry... use decent oil, adjust vales to speck... if there is any damage, you can't undo it,.. so just enjoy riding and fuggetaboutit... A big, air-cooled thumper is going to make some noise,.. ticking,.. and it will change depending on a hundred different things... That said,.. if it sounds like two insane chipmunks beating each other up with hammers,.. you probably have a problem... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by Uno-Lung on 09/02/12 at 15:55:48 I see this exercise in futility is back on the first page again, even after my self-imposed month off these boards. OF Take another month off for this post, and after doing so good for so long .... |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in "tickings" late Post by bill67 on 09/02/12 at 16:35:31 Did you notice they don't have Klotz and Rotella oil in those charts,The chart doesn't go high enough for Klotz and not low enough for Rotella. |
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Title: Re: Anybody noticed the upsurge in Post by bill67 on 09/02/12 at 17:11:56 OF, put Uno-Lung post back on here it was a good oil post and you took it off. |
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