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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Technical Documents/Reference >> Front pulley nut removal and spline maintenance /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1335739552 Message started by Oldfeller on 04/29/12 at 15:45:52 |
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Title: Front pulley nut removal and spline maintenance Post by Oldfeller on 04/29/12 at 15:45:52 Front pulley has a nice big 32 mm nut that is normally threaded. Nut needs to installed be as tight as possible (90-100 foot pounds) with various thread lockers, etc. to keep the dreaded "eat the pulley splines" syndrome away for as long as possible. Now, the problem then becomes taking it off the next time. Those that have dealt with it, how did you get the shaft and pulley to sit still while you dealt with the nut? You don't want to damage the belt or knock your rear wheel out of true bracing all that torque on a single spoke (steel rod through the wheel on top of the swing arm). Looking for best method to put into a tech thread on the subject, so I thought I would poll the corporate mind for BETTER IDEAS. We as a group are pretty durn smart about this scooter, and we need to document the best known methods whenever we can. |
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Title: Re: Least damaging way to break free the drive pul Post by Oldfeller on 04/29/12 at 15:55:32 Yup, own several impact wrenches, both electrical and air. Still requires stopping the pulley rotation in a way that can take over 100 ft pounds of impact torque/rotation without damaging belt or rear wheel/spokes or gear clusters. How did you do it? Looking for the different methods to figure out the best one to document. Would also mention the bad methods and damage that has occurred from using them. |
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Title: Re: Least damaging way to break free the drive pul Post by Oldfeller on 04/29/12 at 16:11:34 Remember, our bikes only make 30-35 foot pounds of max output full engine power/torque. You are talking about going easy 3-4 times that amount of torque just to deal with a fully tightened (locktited) front pulley nut. |
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Title: Re: Least damaging way to break free the drive pul Post by Serowbot on 04/29/12 at 16:21:42 I use an impact wrench now,... 'cause I got one fer' X-Mas... Before that,.. it was a 1/2" drive 2ft breaker bar with a cheater on the end (about 2ft additional for the cheater)... (PS.. I bent the breaker bar a little... These guys are on tight!)... Do it in neutral, so's to not damage any gears,... and slide a bar or big wrench across the tops of the swingarm, through the wheel, to stop the back wheel from turning... (can't remember if I get it through the rear pulley or not, but I don't think so... no harm to the wheel yet, and I've done it many dozens of times...)... |
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Title: Re: Best way to break free the 32mm drive pulley n Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/29/12 at 16:28:59 Id start the nut by hand & leave it out far enough for the impact to have it Spinning fast when it hit, making sure the threads were clean & it ran up easy. Let it hit a few times.Watch the socket, youll know when its tight, Do it after cycling the compressor, have it as full as possible, I like Rowboats answer, neutral, stick thru the spokes. I would add something between the top of the belt & the guard, to keep the bottom of the belt tight to avoid pulley shake, losing torque. |
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Title: Re: Best way to break free the 32mm drive pulley n Post by youzguyz on 04/29/12 at 16:35:32 The one time I had to do it, it was because the drive belt snapped. (The belt will not slip over the drive pulley, so, you need to pull the pulley to install a new belt). As such, the rear wheel was out of the equation. I bought an impact driver just for this project. Bike in neutral. Stuff a bunch of rags in between the pulley and engine case. And I mean a BUNCH, and wedged tight. A couple "blaps" with the impact driver, and the nut spun off with minimal pulley movement. I think it was versy who uses a socket between the pulley and engine case.. but I will let him speak for himself. If I had heard of that before the rag trick, I would have done that, but with a rag wrapped around the socket. |
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Title: Re: Best way to break free the 32mm drive pulley n Post by verslagen1 on 04/29/12 at 16:38:52 Don't like the stick thru spokes method, bent a spoke once. :'( In 1st gear on compression stroke, front tire against the wall, foot on brake, tie down hooked on frame under tire and looped back to frame. 1/2" drive 32mm socket, longest break arm bar my brother has. Smooth application of force. and on occasion when the engine isn't in the frame, socket nested in the pulley splines pushing belt against case. bear hugged the cylinder and drew the breaker towards me. don't recall anyone sayin their gears got eat up by an impact wench. |
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Title: Re: Best way to break free the 32mm drive pulley n Post by Oldfeller on 04/29/12 at 17:50:33 It was a newbie working with his teen aged son trying to get his engine out of the frame, he started out in neutral but somewhere along the way his gearbox got jarred into gear and the forces jammed up his gearbox/shifter forks to the point he had to split the cases in an attempt to fix it. Wound up scrapping that engine as I remember, it was several years ago anyway and he bought another bike (non-savage) rather than finish the repairs. http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF00179.JPG Here is my guesstimation at Verslagen's socket method. He may loosen the belt some to allow the socket bulge to progress around a bit to hit the gear case itself to help transfer the loading but it will still make a pinch point or "point loading" that will localize whatever damage the impact wrench deals out getting the nut off to a particular small part of the belt. That one particular tooth is gonna catch some "crush force" fer sure. A bigger socket and some selective loosening of the belt would give you a good bulged stop point against that screw boss in the gear case. Also note from this pic the worn in condition of a 7o side tilt grinder job on the belt. The belt makes very few and very little squeaks any more and you can see in detail the grind angle and the wear effects over time as the belt "angles in" to a seated position rather than squeaking its way in like a herd of demented mice all the time. The 7o side tilt grinder job just does the sides of the teeth themselves, it does not involve the flat part of the belt at all. http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF001212.JPG Here is my guesstimation at Serowbot's method. It uses a steel breaker bar (or other steel bar) to bridge over the top of the swing arm, installed to stop off the ID of the hole in the rear pulley itself and to intentionally miss involving any spokes in the stressed loaded condition. NOTE: for sprocket safety have the steel bar resting against one of the 4 thick spokes, not the little skinny spokes. There are like 4 places on the wheel where everything lines up to do this, but you have to put the bar in at a slight diagonal to make it work out right. There is no crush or point loading in this method as the pulleys take the load over their normal seating diameters. Learned the Hard Way Electric impact wrenches simply lack the ass to get the nut off, much less put it back on good. Justin had the skinny on using the air wrench -- short abrupt bursts off a fully run up tank pressure gives the most output torque off the wrench. |
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Title: Re: Best way to break free the 32mm drive pulley n Post by ralfyguy on 04/29/12 at 18:08:04 Or you can get yourself a helper sitting on the bike with the front wheel against a wall, holding the steering straight and stepping on the rear brake with one foot. Then get the big a.s cheater-bar-wrench and give that nut he.l. |
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Title: Re: Best way to break free the 32mm drive pulley n Post by Serowbot on 04/29/12 at 18:11:46 OF,... Yup,.. that's it... I just couldn't remember whether I was getting it through the pulley or not... You got it ,dude... ;)... |
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Title: Re: Best way to break free the 32mm drive pulley n Post by verslagen1 on 04/29/12 at 18:36:53 http://www.savageriders.com/verslagen/Tranny/Locking the drive pulley.jpg |
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Title: Re: Best way to break free the 32mm drive pulley n Post by Routy on 04/29/12 at 23:22:04 I haven't done it on this bike, but god knows I've done hundreds similar jobs, I know the best way to do it. While in neutral simply turn the brake adjuster tight, or have your woman step on the brake while the impact wrench spins it off. This way there is NOTHING that can get hurt. If the belt was broke,......a different ball game. But I believe I could wrap the broken belt around it, vicegrips it,.....whatever, and impact it off. It does not have to be held solid for an impact wrench to spin it off. Even if the pulley was slipping inside my glove, it would still come off,....only slower. |
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Title: Re: Best way to break free the 32mm drive pulley n Post by vineman on 04/30/12 at 08:12:03 When I did my chain conversion I used an impact to get the nut off and it didnt spin at all on me. had it in neutral and just pulsated the impact. I never just pulled the trigger to get it going, that would cause it to spin then. try just pulling the trigger for a second then letting off then doing that over and over till it comes off. Happens faster than you'd think. 8-) |
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Title: Re: Best way to break free the 32mm drive pulley n Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/30/12 at 08:44:23 try just pulling the trigger for a second then letting off then doing that over and over till it comes off. Thats the answer with an impact. The split second when the trigger is pulled is the hardest its gonna hit.,Once it drops the pressure in the hose on the other side of the Milton fitting, hydraulic losses are introduced & a slight drop in power is part of the equation. & if theres a dryer in the line its an obvious loss., |
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Title: Re: Best way to break free the 32mm drive pulley n Post by Serowbot on 04/30/12 at 09:10:06 Yes,.. an impact wrench, (even an electric one, mine is) makes the job easy... I just replaced my front pulley yesterday with the larger one, and I didn't have to do anything to hold the pulley... just hit that magic button... ... but using a breaker bar or ratchet,... the rear brake just isn't strong enough to hold.... some sort of bracing is required... Here's another idea... I did this once... Back the bike up to a post (4 x 4" carport post)... and use a ratcheting tie down to strap the rear wheel to the post... (this also holds the bike up, if you're working alone)... That worked... |
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Title: Re: Best way to break free the 32mm drive pulley n Post by greenmonster on 04/30/12 at 10:22:57 Do NOT put a bar through the rear sprocket. That nice big sprocket is made of cast aluminum. The spokes are weak when you apply that kind of force. On the other hand, maybe you wanted to get a new rear pulley anyway. |
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Title: Re: Best way to break free the 32mm drive pulley n Post by Serowbot on 04/30/12 at 10:27:22 4A5F4848434042435E59485F2D0 wrote:
I've done it,.. multiple times... and not even a scratch... |
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Title: Re: Best way to break free the 32mm drive pulley n Post by Oldfeller on 04/30/12 at 12:48:16 If you look at the pic and read the info under it -- it says there are 4 places you can do this. These are the 4 thick spoke areas. I add one more to Serowbot's "done it" count. I will clarify though, the idea is for tech posts to be easy to read and clear. Which is why my tech posts start out as RSD threads and everybody is kind enough to point out all the flaws and lacks right quick like (and I fixes them, I do). ;D Actually, Ralphyguy and Routy combine into making the single safest method, which is to lock up the rear brake tight by adjusting the adjustment nut until it gets tight. I discount the wife on the brakes as she has to be home to do that and often she isn't. Shame some bikes simply don't have enough remaining brake shoe fibre thickness left to do the adjustment nut trick with .... |
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Title: Re: Rear pulley nut removal and spline maintenance Post by Oldfeller on 04/30/12 at 13:06:21 OK. now we kick over into the next part of the Tech Post, spline maintenance. Those of you who have heard the "playing cards in the bike's spokes" sound on deceleration understand what I am talking about -- when simple wear has increased the shaft spline to pulley spline clearance to the point something has to be tried to stop it or it will progress faster and faster to failure. I've heard JB Weld and I've heard RTV and I've heard speciality stuff from Loctite corp ---- what have you guys actually used that fixed the issues. :D And were you ever able to get the pulley off again when you needed to ? |
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Title: Re: Rear pulley nut removal and spline maintenance Post by verslagen1 on 04/30/12 at 13:44:13 And methods used to apply the gap filling goo. I have an oversized pulley, but the splines are worn. I'm contemplating grinding a groove around the middle of the splines and drilling and tapping a hole to the outside for a pressure fitting. then loading a tube with goo and pressurizing it till goo squirts out the ends. |
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Title: Re: Rear pulley nut removal and spline maintenance Post by Serowbot on 04/30/12 at 14:20:21 I think I'd just smear JB around the shaft splines n' slide the pulley on... There have been instances of the pulley chewing up the shaft spines,... haven't there?... Seem to vaguely remember one... That's a scary thought... |
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Title: Re:Front pulley nut removal and spline maintenance Post by Oldfeller on 04/30/12 at 16:27:51 Oh yes, quite a few of the higher mileage bikes have had pulley ID splines totally wear out of existence. Serenity had one freewheel on him so bad he thought his gearbox was shot. Motobudda missed this years Dragon run because his splines were totally shot. Shaft splines take some wear too, but the steel is heat treated machined rod stock while the pulley is investment cast something or other, so the pulley is what gives up first. JB Weld is not forever, heat it up and cool it down repeatedly it crumbles eventually even in this sort of use and slowly gets turned into JB powder. Your "playing cards in the spokes" comes back to haunt you, eventually. Trouble is, if you want to take the front pulley off before then you got a real issue as uncrumbled JB Weld is pretty durn strong stuff. RTV is a joke, not really strong enough to resist the forces involved when it is fresh, much less after a few years. It isn't totally going to stop the progression, but you CAN remove the pulley if you have to .... About the best you can say is that RTV will "mute" the playing cards for a while. http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF000516.JPG http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF000119.JPG Anyhow, looking at the shiny drive surfaces and little metal tits being pushed out on the edges of the splines, I would say I have some progression going on between acel and decel modes. Mild, but it is there. Enough to make the noise I was hearing, mebbe. |
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Title: Re:Front pulley nut removal and spline maintenance Post by Oldfeller on 05/01/12 at 09:18:28 OK, before we start to gooping, you need to measure the side to side rock potential on your worn pulley. Put the cleaned pulley on the splines and rock it looking for tilt movement. Mine would do a 1/6" of an inch and my wear on my splines is very mild. You need to be mindful of getting an even settlement of your gooped pulley during torque down and you need to check the evenness of the pulley both for tilt and run-out BEFORE you go for the final clinch up. Why? If you clench up crooked and let the RTV (or JB Weld if you are at that stage) set up crooked -- guess what, you got a vibration/noise from a front pulley that is running crooked. You don't want that. Now on to the gooping, having been all properly warned and all .... http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF000816.JPG Shaft is in great shape, practically virginal. No issues here. http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF001110.JPG Some RTV on the shaft splines ..... http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF001213.JPG Some RTV in the ID splines ..... http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF001611.JPG Some loctite on the threads and a goodly whapping with the impact wrench. Looking at the ooze, I see some width & thickness to it. This means the RTV inside the joint got itself squeezed by the pull down with the impact wrench. Assuming there was a similar internal pressure squeeze effect, then the joint between the splines got force extruded pretty full of pressurized RTV as well. The movement would be through the splines and into the air gap under the spacer that the transmission seal runs against. I dunno, but I think we got us a fairly good RTV encapsulated joint here which unfortunately I still tend to think is only going to be a temporary fix at best. Still, we gotta try the less extreme fix first to see if it is worth anything at all. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley nut removal and spline maintenanc Post by Klobchar on 01/19/14 at 20:26:08 Sorry to bump such an old thread....but this is very important to me. Oldfeller, can we get an update on how you think this worked out over all? For those who haven't read my rubberside topic, my splines are shot, I would say a couple hundred miles till complete failure. :'( I was lucky enough to find another '95 engine from another member here. But before I either split the bottoms....or transfer the tops, should I attempt the J-B method out? If for nothing else, at least we as a forum will know the efficiency of the method. Or maybe even try to insert pins through the pully as suggested above. And Should I do this with a new pully for best results? My pully splines are so bad that they are sharp. There is so much room in between splines (pully and output) that I could probably fit real welding in there. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley nut removal and spline maintenanc Post by Oldfeller on 01/20/14 at 06:55:52 I think you totally misunderstood this part of the thread. It isn't really about recovering already severely torn up splines, it is about attempting to prevent the spline wear progression from progressing by doing this very early on, just as soon as motion is first detected. ====================== What is known about severely progressed spline wear? Serenity is your man for that, he has killed two sets of splines on pulleys and one and a half sets on engines. His last attempt at fixin' his extreme spline slop involved driving a series of 2-3 little hard tack nails into each of the spline gaps trying to put the driven surfaces next to each other in a more permanent way. Attempt before that was JB Weld. Neither fix lasted more than a year or two. Longest lasting, most drastic fix that has been done is to align the splines into contact, tighten the nut down good with no washer under it then spot weld the nut to the shaft, then spot weld the nut to the pulley. This works, but it means you cannot take the belt off ever again. End game on this fix is the splined/treaded end of the shaft breaking off after years and years of the threaded shaft end taking all the load from the engine. Next factoid is that a full engine tear down to switch out the shaft cost more than a cheap used engine. When this was figured, an engine cost $350, with them running up around $550 now days the math may not work out that way any more. So, since you have a new engine get a newish pulley and try the RTV trick as it lasts at least 2 years (date since installed). It can't hurt and it would hold some at first, then act as a sort of impact resistant lubricant after the motion actually began. As far as me tearing down the junction to look at it, no, that ain't going to happen until I hear it break itself loose again. So far that hasn't happened. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley nut removal and spline maintenanc Post by Curtiss on 02/04/14 at 22:54:14 Personally I spent the $75 and got a chain so I could adapt it to constant freeway riding, the belt was cool but the engine was over winding at 65 mph. Must admit the belt was cleaner but the ratio on the chain works better for my uses :-* |
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Title: Re: Front pulley nut removal and spline maintenanc Post by Oldfeller on 02/07/14 at 05:42:42 You know, the chain conversion guys have the exact same problem about wearing out the drive splines on the output shaft. Their actual chain sprocket to splines engagement area is actually less than what the pulley guys have, so logically they should hit the spline wear out wall sooner. We don't hear about this happening because the chain drive guys tend to sell the bike off before it wears out the drive shaft splines (they also tend to be relatively younger folks who change bikes frequently). Us old farts who ride the Savage because it fits our creaky old bodies so well, we tend to keep the bike long enough to wear things out. Key thing is to keep your nut nice and tight and to check it periodically to see if it has gotten loose on you. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley nut removal and spline maintenanc Post by BuckRYCA on 04/02/14 at 08:26:32 It is good to see this topic being discussed as it's very important to owners who put higher miles and or hard acceleration/deceleration on their bikes. Suzuki recommends that the torque on the front pulley lock nut be checked every 4000 miles. This is no joke. I bought a Savage with 11K on it and did not check the torque on this nut. By 13K the splines on the front pulley were gone (tow truck time). The splines on the mating transmission mainshaft were damaged. Repair #1: Replaced front pulley and put Loctite 660 onto the mainshaft splines. This lasted only 5400 miles and I pushed the bike home. Repair #2: Had a welder build up mainshaft splines and welded front pulley to the mainshaft. This lasted only 3000 miles and once again I pushed the bike home. Repair #3: Bought a used bottom end on eBay ($300) and swapped it in. No simple task. Not cheap either. If you choose to repair the bottom end instead of replacing it, figure $150 in parts, a least two special tools, and many hours of labor. Moral of story: Check the torque on the front pulley nut regularly, like every time you do a valve adjustment or be prepared to junk the bike or swap in a bottom end or repair the transmission. Recommendation: Put a dab of paint across the lock nut, lock washer, and pulley. With a metal scribe scratch a location mark in the painted metal to locate the pulley to the lock nut. Check this regularly to detect any motion and address it before you lose your mainshaft splines. Here's a not so great photo of what I did: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1t9qzo756vzzfyj/PulleyNutLocator.JPG |
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Title: Re: Front pulley nut removal and spline maintenanc Post by ret cg on 05/08/14 at 06:46:43 If the pulley, washer and nut have never been removed from the original factory build is this still a potential problem? 25K on my 2006 with cam chain tensioner, tires, oil, filter and three valve adjusment checks as the only maintenance. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley nut removal and spline maintenanc Post by Serowbot on 05/08/14 at 09:47:52 Yes,.. they do come loose, and even a slight bit loose can eat the shaft splines... Then yer' in deep doodoo... Make checking it a part of your regular maintenance... (can make clicking or chirping noises when loose)... |
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Title: Re: Front pulley nut removal and spline maintenanc Post by LS650THUMPER on 05/08/14 at 17:21:11 I used a small tie rod removal tool, placed it between the top of the pulley and the underside of the belt. In place of the 9mm socket trick. The 32mm socket 1/2 " drive ratchet and a pipe for extra leverage and gave it hell.. It did break loose. Good ole yankee ingenuity . |
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Title: Re: Best way to break free the 32mm drive pulley n Post by Seaweednh on 07/07/14 at 19:05:50 1B3830323138383126540 wrote:
Not all impact guns are created equal. At work we have a "Harbor Freight" good paper weight, and a Craftsmen good for small stuff. I brought in one of my IR guns for doing everything else. Removed lots of free spinning pulleys without having to hold them. |
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Title: Re: Best way to break free the 32mm drive pulley n Post by Jsud04 on 08/01/14 at 05:18:26 7D4B4F594B4B4A40462E0 wrote:
Not all impact guns are created equal. At work we have a "Harbor Freight" good paper weight, and a Craftsmen good for small stuff. I brought in one of my IR guns for doing everything else. Removed lots of free spinning pulleys without having to hold them.[/quote] The harbor freight electric impact wrench works fine for this task. Plenty of torque 85ftlbs, just need to hold the trigger down for several seconds, builds up to max torque then reassure your work with an impact socket and breaker bar... I agree that the air impacts are better but the simplicity of plunging in is nice... I wonder if all the engine mods people are doing maybe contribute to increased wear? |
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Title: Re: Front pulley nut removal and spline maintenanc Post by Dave on 08/01/14 at 09:47:18 I have a modified engine, and don't plan on any additional wear. A lot of bikes use this shaft and spline size for both pulleys and sprockets, and it is not a weak point that I am aware of. The big single may have torque at low speed that the other bikes can't match - but other bikes that use this shaft size can make more horsepower. The folks that are having trouble somehow ended up with a nut that came loose, and they did not find out right away. Our bike is a noisy beast, and sometimes an extra noise can go by without being noticed. If ridden much when the nut is loose, it can wear the shaft quickly. When I put my gear on I always clean the shaft and threads well, use Thread Locker and the factory locking tab washer, and tighten it to the high end of the torque value specified. Dave |
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Title: Re: Front pulley nut removal and spline maintenanc Post by Jsud04 on 08/01/14 at 10:42:14 I have found that with the bike off and in neutral while pushing it forward, if that nut is even remotely loose it will make a slight whirling grinding sound...easy to spot in my mind. If its really loose, with the bike on and rolling in neutral or clutch disengaged it will do this as well...I have stock exhaust though. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley nut removal and spline maintenanc Post by MnSpring on 08/27/14 at 13:21:00 Just took one off a 97. (Parting out bike) First, tightened down the rear brake, (Adjuster nut) Then put the 32mm (Which 32MM is the SAME size as 1-1/4) on. Now 32mm = 1-1/4, I did not know. Until, I grabbed a seldom used set, of BIG Sockets, thinking I would find one that was close. Lo and Behold, I grabbed one, which, 'looked' right, and it Fit perfectly, it was marked 1-1/4". Then, I looked again, it was marked 1-1/4 with (32mm) next to it. (Later did the math, 32mm = 1.2598 inch. But later is the key word. That kinna like, looking at the little piece of paper, that comes with a new grill in the box, 'before', you put it together.) ;D So, rear wheel, 'braked'. Socket on, with breaker bar, with a 2" piece of pipe over. (about 3' OAL). Then put pressure on. It didn't move. But just kept the pressure on, and in about 30 sec, it started to move. I was a Happy Camper! 8-) The hardest part was, pounding back that little tab on the washer. |
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