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Message started by teabowl13 on 11/17/11 at 11:01:20

Title: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by teabowl13 on 11/17/11 at 11:01:20

HEY KIDS,

I'm just brain storming at this point... building a Vintage roadster out of my $250 Savage (nothing really built yet, but soon, with pictures to follow...) and my builder friend wants to do a chain conversion... I know a couple of the RYCA guys are doing that, and I'm wondering how that has worked out and what sprockets you guys are running...

Hutch's recommendation, and a couple others seem to like the 17/43 combo, but that's hitting the swingarms on bikes that are running 12.5" shocks; I'm going to be running 13" shocks...
Would the 18/45 be enough to clear?

MPNOFFI, who is doing the Scrambler build, calculated that 16/52 would maintain the stock gearing ratios, accounting for the 18" rear tire, but how big of an issue is this anyway?
All of the RYCA bikes that keep the belt drive are not changing the gearing to account for the tires... How much of a difference does the 18" rear tire make to the way it rides with the belt?

Maybe I need to do some trial and error here, but thought it would help to ask first... we're still in the planning and plotting stages, wither up here is long and still just barely getting started, so we have time on our side...

Thanks Y'all!!

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by MotoBuddha on 11/17/11 at 12:37:07

The diameter of a tire for an 18" rim is about 2" more than the diameter of a tire for a 15" rim.

Your gearing choice depends on whether you want mostly quick acceleration from a stop or smoother cruising/higher top speed.

Countershaft sprockets are a smaller diameter than the belt pulley. That can cause chain clearance issues at the swingarm -- depending on if the swing arm is mounted on the outside of the frame, like the Savage, or on the inside, like a normal bike. Longer shock exacerbate the problem on Savage frames. On my Ryca chain conversion, I had to grind a little off the chain side swingarm pivot. There's just enough clearance with a 17T countershaft sprocket. I think I'll go up to an 18T and rethink whether I want bottom end quickness or more top end. It's going to be a bop-around-town bike, not a freeway blaster or long-haul bike. But that's the advantage of chain drive, you have options.

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by teabowl13 on 11/17/11 at 12:54:22

HEY BUDDAH,
That's what I read in your thread. AMAZINGLY helpful, by the way. I can't thank you enough for posting everything you have.
So for you, looking for all around cruising, rather than top speed, you'd go with 18 front 45 rear, right?
I know your bike has 12.5" shocks; do you think the 18 tooth front sprocket will give enough clearance if I am running 13" shocks? Or should I maybe go bigger?

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by MotoBuddha on 11/17/11 at 13:39:16

I don't think there are any countershaft sprockets larger than 18T. I also don't know if there would be enough clearance in the crankcase for something larger. But you can get more swingarm clearance with a larger rear sprocket, too, though it might not give you the gearing you want.

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by teabowl13 on 11/17/11 at 13:43:26

Yeah, I just saw that; 18 is the biggest front sprocket, but you're right, if I have issues, I can try a larger rear sprocket.
Did you ever experiment with the chain roller thingie that you got? The little sprocket-on-a-post piece you were thinking about mounting to push the chain up above the swingarm? Where did you find that thing? What is it called? I like that idea, but I don't even know what to look for to find one...

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by teabowl13 on 11/17/11 at 13:49:36

Ignore that last question; I just did a search on Ebay for chain tensioners, and found a bunch. I just didn't think it would be that easy... DUH!

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by BurnPgh on 11/17/11 at 14:42:43

according to hutch, the original chain conversion, the 18t front sprocket will not work. not enough clearance for the chain. If you live in a hilly area dont bother changing ratios unless you're going lower, or if you're on the freeway for long periods. 17/45 is about stock and it barely clears the swingarm.

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by teabowl13 on 11/17/11 at 17:33:47

I did see at the beginning of his post that he says the 18T front sprocket won't fit, but in looking at his pictures, it certainly seems like it could?
He doesn't say where the clearance issue is with the 18t, just that it doesn't fit. It looks like it would fit easily inside the case, after all it should still be smaller in diameter than the original belt pulley, right?
I have to trust his experience though, since he is the one who has done it, and I have not... but I'd like to know why the 18 doesn't fit.
Has anyone been able to use an 18t front sprocket on their Savage?

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by thumperclone on 11/17/11 at 17:49:23

would a "slider" work on the swing arm like those on dirt bikes??

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by MotoBuddha on 11/17/11 at 19:09:31

It's just a matter of finding a chunk of nylon that fits.

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by teabowl13 on 11/18/11 at 08:19:57

That's what I've been thinking...
Either a nylon/delrin slider thing-a-ma-jiggy, or one of those fancy chain tensioners with the tiny spinning sprocket on it that the bobber guys use sometimes.
Another hundred hours scanning through scraps on Ebay; OH MY!!

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by teabowl13 on 11/18/11 at 08:32:09

I'm thinking about possibly mounting something like this to the inside of the swingarm. They make cheaper ones without the spring, but it seems to me that the spring would be essential to accommodate the movement of the swingarm and rear suspension travel. Thoughts?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/110687471228?item=110687471228&viewitem=&vxp=mtr#ht_2293wt_1241

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by MotoBuddha on 11/18/11 at 08:44:09

Spring loaded tensioners are designed to be used on the bottom loop of the chain, taking up slack to keep the chain from jumping off the sprockets. It wouldn't work on the top loop of the chain, which is tensioned under power. The chain would just push the cog down until it couldn't pivot anymore (which might also be the point where the cog hits the swingarm). Might as well use one without a spring. If you locate it as near as possible to the swingarm pivot, you can minimize whatever negative effects swingarm movement would cause.

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by MotoBuddha on 11/18/11 at 08:45:46

In a few days we'll have a definitive answer whether an 18T sprocket will fit. I ordered one (along with a larger rear sprocket). I will provide photos.

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by teabowl13 on 11/18/11 at 14:11:24

Thanks Buddah.
I had my suspicions about the spring loaded one. What you are saying makes perfect sense. My concern with using one in a fixed position was that the chain might jump off of it when riding over large bumps etc. (We get a lot of that up here in Maine...) but you are right: if it's as close to the swingarm pivot as possible the chain movement will be minimal as long as it is properly adjusted. Besides that, the swingarm itself will also be moving with it, so that makes sense.

I won't order any sprockets until I hear back from you about the 18t!!
I hope it works, for both of us! Your bike is AMAZINGLY beautiful; it would really be a shame to mess up all that beautiful powder coating...

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by thumperclone on 11/20/11 at 08:20:33

see the supercharged savage video posted in the cafe pause @1:24..
looks good to me ;)

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by teabowl13 on 11/20/11 at 11:49:05

That's pretty awesome alright!!
As far as the chain tensioner goes though, it's set up like al the one's I've seen elsewhere; it's on a rigid frame bike, and used to maintain tension on the LOWER length of the chain.

I was thinking of using the same device, but on the UPPER length of chain on a bike with normal shocks, and that changes the dynamics of the situation...
I suspect MotoBuddah is right; since the top length of chain is held in tension by the pull of the motor, then using one that is spring loaded might not be necessary. Just a little fixed cog welded to the swingarm should do the trick. After all, it will rise and fall with the swingarm. I'd probably have to be really ringing the Be-Jeebus out of it to get it to pop off of there...

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by verslagen1 on 11/20/11 at 11:51:54

If you're going to put one on the top side, it's going to see a lot of load.
so brace accordingly.

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by teabowl13 on 11/21/11 at 13:20:52

Thanks Verslagen...
That's exactly what I was thinking too. I'm having a Pow-Wow with mt builder friend who's in charge of this project on Saturday, so we'll see what he says about the whole thing. He's the one who's all hot to do the chain conversion, so I'm sure he'll do it right...

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by MotoBuddha on 11/23/11 at 12:16:07

Ladies and gentlemen, an 18T sprocket in place. Plenty of room.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk182/motobuddha/1f0b7576.jpg

With this 18T on the front and a 49T on the rear, there's about 3/16" clearance between the chain and top of the swingarm with no load on the bike. The 49T might sacrifice too much top end, but I could probably go down to a smaller one, like 47T. I'll see how this rides first.

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by teabowl13 on 11/24/11 at 18:30:07

THANKS AGAIN BUDDAH!
It sure looked like there was plenty of room in there. I'll definitely be going that size then.

I wonder what Hutch was referring to in his original post; where he says it won't fit. Maybe it was hitting something on the stock bike that is gone from the RYCA version? Maybe the chain hits something differently with the stock shocks?

All I know is that this will work great for me!!
Cheers!

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by teabowl13 on 11/27/11 at 11:37:24

So Buddah,

You're going with a 49/18 which gives a ratio of 2.72 according to JT's charts.
You say that this might rob you of some Top-end speed, but it's still taller than the stock ratio of 2.957.

Most of the guys with stock wheels are doing 43/17 which gives a 2.53 ratio. This looks on paper like a pretty large change in ratio from stock; is that change really creating much faster top speeds? Without sacrificing low and mid-range acceleration?

It seems to me that if you factor in the larger rear tire on your RYCA conversion, you'd get more top end anyway, so perhaps your 49/18 ratio makes more sense for your (and mine too...) application than it would for a stock bike...

And yet RpnSht says in his build thread that he would use 45/18...
Maybe that's just him? After all, he is "RpnSht"

I'm just thinking out loud; juggling all these numbers is making my head hurt a little...

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by MotoBuddha on 11/27/11 at 12:22:12

I'm thinkin' the seat of the pants chart is the one that will matter. I'll try it and see if I like it.

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by teabowl13 on 11/27/11 at 19:31:58

OK, I hear that!
But hurry up and get that thing on the road!
I gotta order sprockets for this beast pretty soon... ;)

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by teabowl13 on 12/01/11 at 09:27:29

SO....
After scrambling my brains with all of these numbers and getting myself into a tizzy over it all, I've decided to just split the difference between Buddah, and Ripn'

18t front, 47t rear. It'll be months before this thing is road-worthy, and since I never got to ride the Savage before we started this build, I won't have anything to compare it to anyway, but WHAT THE HELL! Gotta start somewhere...

Thanks everyone for all of your ideas and input. It really was very helpful, and I feel like I have a much better (if not absolutely complete) understanding of how all of this gearing stuff works...

CHEERS!

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by mpescatori on 12/05/11 at 06:35:27

Given the standard ratio of 2.95:1, my orientation would be to fit a 45 tooth rear and a 15 tooth front to maintain the original ratio, with option to upgrade to 16 or even 17 tooth front sprockets as required.

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by MotoBuddha on 12/05/11 at 06:56:58

0D1005130301140F1209600 wrote:

But if you're doing a Ryca conversion, or anything else with longer shocks, there's a clearance problem between the swingarm and the top part of the chain. Larger sprockets front and rear take care of the problem while smaller ones, like a 15T make it worse.

Here's a crappy shot of the clearance with an 18/49 combo, 12.5" shocks, no load on the bike -- and a little of the top front end of the swingarm ground down:

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk182/motobuddha/5d5d135b.jpg

With a 17/45 the chain was about 1/16" off the swingarm.

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by teabowl13 on 12/05/11 at 10:15:39

YES!
And I'm expecting to have some clearance issues myself.
I've got 18/47t sprockets, and 13" shocks, so I'm expecting to just barely clear the swingarm, and I am NOT inclined to grind it down if I don't have to. (RipnSht ground all the way through his trying to fit 17/45 sprockets on his RYCA bike and still scarred up the top of his swingarm.) I'll be installing some sort of nylon/delrin slider pad on the top of the swingarm when the time comes. (Might be next weekend! We will see...) ::)

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by RpNSht on 12/30/11 at 20:36:10

if i did it again i would go with 49/18
im sure the difference between 49/18 and 45/17 is impossible to tell with all the other factors going on
but i would still mod the swing arm accordingly

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by teabowl13 on 12/31/11 at 12:27:33

49/18? Huh? Did I miss-read your older post? I thought you'd said earlier you'd go 45/18. What do you imagine the difference would be? Do you miss the low-end torque?

My buddy Jay and I got distracted by the Holidays and all that talk of Mono-shock conversion (probably a dead horse at this point, we'll see...) So nothing has happened for a while, but he's bringing the bike up to me next Thursday, and we are going to spend some quality Man-Time in my garage, so I'l be sure to post an update after all that... ;D

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by RpNSht on 01/01/12 at 19:39:48

actually i would test either 45 or 49 to see which i like best
but i know for sure id go with an 18 up front
to give a little more room for the swing arm
the gearing i have now is rad but a little too much for LOS ANGELES traffic
makes splitting lanes fun though for sure :)

152420232E362D7072410 wrote:

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by Super Thumper on 01/25/14 at 07:55:56

Looks good to me as well...have you tried a 530 O-ring chain in there with the 18 tooth?

this looks just like mine with a 17 tooth and a 530 O-ring chain.

Title: Re: RYCA WITH CHAIN CONVERSION??
Post by Dave on 01/26/14 at 05:05:46

7668616D636C706B6A040 wrote:

Looks good to me as well...have you tried a 530 O-ring chain in there with the 18 tooth?.

Although these old threads work to retrieve previous work......you may not get the anwer as RpnSHT has not posted to this thread in more than a year.....and he has not logged on to the site for 9 months.

If you click on any members ID.....you can go to their site information and see when they last visited the site, what posts they have made recently, etc. Some members even have emails listed....so you might be able to contact them even if they don't come to the site anymore.