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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Bike is Feeling Odd /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1317268858 Message started by Fish on 09/28/11 at 21:00:57 |
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Title: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by Fish on 09/28/11 at 21:00:57 So this might be hard to convey without anyone being able to actually ride my bike and feel what's happening. But I'm concerned. Sammy is my only form of transportation. You know the feeling of the engine lugging when your RPMs are too low for your current gear and you need to downshift? Starting with 3rd gear around 35mph the bike feels similar to that. It feels like the motor is working harder than it is supposed to be. But everything sounds like normal. This past weekend I had two rides of 200 miles each, one on Thursday night and one Monday morning. Almost all of it at 65mph on the highway. I didn't have this issue before the weekend. Monday afternoon (a couple hours after the 2nd 200 mile ride) I had to ride to work, 20miles each way. Going into 4th it feels even worse. That lugging feeling continues through about 55mph in 5th. I'm NOT shifting too early, it's not actually lugging. The bike sounds fine and the engine speed is where it should be. But even all the way through those gears I still feel that lugging type of vibration. I felt it Monday and Tuesday. Today going to work I didn't feel it much at all. Coming home from work I felt it again. I've also had clunky shifting to go along with this, not consistently though. 2001, stock. I got it with 3200miles in March and now it has 8300. I have had a small oil leak from the plug area since about 4000 miles. I put on a Raptor 1 week ago. I changed my oil and accidentally went with a synthetic blend of Bel Ray 10/40 1000 miles ago (made my leak worse). I normally use the 10/40 Dino oil. Replaced my plug with NGK 4000miles ago (haven't looked at it since) Air filter is original and kinda dirty. Went with an AGM battery on the 17th. I made sure to check my oil at every stop for gas on that 400 mile trip. Only had to add about 1/5th of a quart over the ride to keep the oil window full while holding the bike vertical. Bike idles nicely. Valves make a bit of noise, not too bad though (Have not been adjusted) Any ideas? Losing compression from the worsening oil leak? Odd vibration from maybe loose motor mounts? Dirty plug + dirty air filter messing things up? Valves not happy? Cam chain ready to wreak havoc? Any insight would be appreciated. Let me know if there's something more specific I can say to help convey my problem. |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by Oldfeller on 09/28/11 at 21:24:47 First off, go simple. The back brake adjustment on the steel brake rod back on the rear wheel hub assembly, loosen it 3-4 turns until your rear brake has a lot of slop in it. Does the "sluggish feeling" change any? On my bike I run the rear brake loose while on the interstate, and tighten it up for rapid response in town. Brakes dragging can make our engine feel weak and sick ... ... too much power is sapped by the dragging brakes turning good engine energy back into friction heat. BTW ---- respond and say you did the things suggested and stay on the same thread this time -- nobody can help you if you jump around or leave for a while and come back 3 weeks later. |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by Fish on 09/28/11 at 21:32:59 Hmm. I did have my rear tire replaced at a car/MC repair shop about 800 miles ago which was about 10 days before this began. He adjusted it to plenty tighter than I had had it before. He said that was "closer to spec" than where I had it before. I think I adjusted it back out again afterwards because I wasn't comfortable with how quickly the rear was grabbing. But since riding around I've gotten used to it, doesn't feel too tight. I'll try loosening it though. What are you referring to OF? I visit this site daily. If I didn't reply to anything for weeks at a time it might have been when I first started coming here. Sorry :-[ |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by verslagen1 on 09/28/11 at 21:47:02 not you in particular, just something that happens alot. we ol' farts tend to forget where we where a couple of days ago. |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by Fish on 09/28/11 at 21:49:02 Oh, okay. I have seen exactly what OldFeller was talking about in some of the threads I have read. I do keep my own issues to my own thread. And I have made separate threads for separate/unrelated issues. |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by verslagen1 on 09/28/11 at 21:51:00 When the bottom bolts are loose you can feel it in the footpegs more. When the top bolts are loose you can feel it in the handles. |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by Fish on 09/28/11 at 21:52:40 I definitely feel it more in my footpegs. |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by verslagen1 on 09/28/11 at 21:54:04 It don't hurt to check them, 50 ftlbs. don't worry too much about the oil leak, 1/5 a qt aint much. just don't let it go too low. |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by Fish on 09/28/11 at 22:01:57 I'm definitely understating the severity of my leak with that sentence. Those 2 days I went through a 1/5 of a quart. Since I changed my oil only about 800 miles ago I've used an extra 1/2 of a quart, a good 450ml. If I showed you a picture of the oil that's all over everything on my bike you guys might even tell me to park it, and that my oil leak isn't just in the plug cap. But yeah, I'm vigilant about checking my oil and adding some as needed because of my leak. |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by Oldfeller on 09/28/11 at 22:30:15 Still, listen to what Veslagen said -- the oil leak does not translate into "headgasket" or any other form of power leakage. It is the rubber plug, which you will fix when you have tools and time to do it in. Until then, let it leak, clean it up periodically and replace the oil that escapes. Adjust the rear brake to be VERY LOOSE and get back to us with the results. If you ran it very tight for a while after the shop screwed it up, you may have built up a bunch of brake dust in your brake drum cavity which makes the "draggy stuff" act worse than it would otherwise. Quit taking your bike to a place that understands it less than you do. "closer to book specs indeed ....." The idiot understands the bike not at all and is correcting you, who do understand it some with the shite he reads from a shop manual? We keep up an entire LIBRARY of the known errors in the Clymers and the shop manuals ..... If loosening the brakes helps your root issue, you will perhaps learn something about taking it to the shop. |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by Fish on 09/28/11 at 22:45:37 Well that did stick out in my head, because I was wondering why a guy who had never worked on a Savage before knew what "closer to spec" was. He didn't say "Book spec" and I watched him for nearly an hour, I didn't see him thumbing through any manuals and I didn't see them in his work area. The guy has a real shop with 3 heavy duty car lifts and 1 motorcycle lift. I only went to a shop because I did not have the tools necessary to get my rear wheel off by myself to have the tire replaced. I've taken car tires off dozens of times, it's easy enough for anyone and only requires 2 tools essentially. But I'm new to the world of wrenching on a motorcycle. I need more tools! It's too late (almost 2am) for me to work on the bike tonight. But I will adjust the rear brake tomorrow and get back to you with the results. |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by Oldfeller on 09/28/11 at 23:00:49 What you are paying a mechanic will buy you a full set of tools. I took my son in law to Sears because he had no tools. He was shocked when I got a push cart and started going down the isles putting in the cart a duplicate of my basic tool box (can handle 95% of everything) and he was shocked that I was going skimpy on SAE and very heavy on the metric stuff. He has since learned that Honda/Acura was what he owned and he has all the tools he needs to work on his cars and his motorcycle -- all of them right down to the snap ring pliers. Harbor Freight is a much better place to buy your basic tools if you are really tight for money -- they are not first class tools and they don't have the Sears "You Bust It, We Replace It" 100% no questions asked forever warranty. But they cost only 1/3 as much as Sears would cost too. And they do the job jest fine .... replace what you actually bust and you still save a whole lot of money over what the Sears would cost. |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by Boule’tard on 09/29/11 at 06:13:19 Captain Obvious here :D (sorry) Check the tire pressures, and the front brake as well. Maybe that shop didn't air it back up all the way when they replaced the tire? |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by Fish on 09/29/11 at 06:53:19 Haven't adjusted the brake yet, I have some service being done in my home here in twenty minutes and I just woke up a little while ago. Both tires are a little low. The front is at 24psi (5lbs low) and the rear is 28psi (5lbs low). The front brake is barely working currently, definitely not dragging too much. I need to replace the line and the fluid, gotta get the pads off and have a good look at them too. The pads, line, and maybe even fluid (it's a a little dark in the sight glass) are all stock, 10 years old. OldFeller, I've only spent $45 on a mechanic with my bike for him to take the wheel off, replace the tire, and put the wheel back on. I do want to buy quality tools, but my budget might keep me at Harbor Freight. I want to do some Garage Sailing while we've still got summer temperatures down here and score some good used tools on the cheap. |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/29/11 at 07:32:17 Just grab the brake lever on the rear drum,, move it,, you should be able to feel the brake engage,if you cant, loosen it off.. Ride it, dont use the rear brake,, touch rear hub,, burn little fingers? Brake is dragging.. thers 2 ways to check it. |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by Fish on 09/29/11 at 08:03:01 Grabbed the lever, didn't take very far but I could feel it engage. I just found A problem, maybe this is THE problem? I'm missing a bolt for my swingarm! Yeah I know my bike is dirty as hell. It's been almost 2 weeks since I washed it. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v98/MadProfessor/Sammy/100_2750.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v98/MadProfessor/Sammy/100_2751.jpg |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by verslagen1 on 09/29/11 at 08:17:46 That's a bolt for the rear motor mount. You got 2 more just like it on the other side and 1 more on the lower side of swing arm. |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by Fish on 09/29/11 at 08:28:38 Yeah, I just went back out there and took a better look at things and realized it's a motor mount bolt. Well I was feeling the vibration in the footpeg, so I think this is the source of my problem. Thanks Verslagen. I'll have to take one of those out and go to ACE to find a replacement. Hopefully they'll have one because the Suzuki dealer doesn't. I also REALLY need to get a torque wrench. |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by Fish on 10/01/11 at 16:08:34 I aired up my tires to spec. I loosened the rear brake a little bit (3turns) So I figured I'd remove the heat shield to get at that lower motor mount bolt so I could figure out a replacement for the one that was missing. The parts diagram in the Clymer only shows 1 bolt to remove for the heat shield. Cool, it's easy to get to. It failed to mention the TWO PHILLIPS SCREWS that also attach the heat shield to the bike. >:( I ended up removing THE WHOLE EXHAUST to get at that one stupid bolt motor mount bolt out of the bike. But hey! I now know who to remove the exhaust when it comes time to put on my Dyna :D Hell, I would have put the Dyna on if I already had the jets and clamp. No local shops have the jets (I've checked). I'll have to get em online. I also learned that my exhaust clamp that mounts the header to the cylinder is WARPED. That would explain my exhaust leak :D $26 for a new clamp from BikeBandit. I already have a new exhaust gasket. ANYWAY, I replaced both lower rear motor mount allen head bolts, put some Loctite RED and torqued them down to about 20ft lbs. I coudn't retorque the nut that's supposed to be torqued to 51-64 ft lbs because I don't have a metric socket larger than 14mm. Would that nut be 15mm or 16mm? Page 74 of the Clymer. The vibration and lugging feeling I was noticing before isn't totally gone. It has changed. I rode the bike 40 miles today to work and back and I didn't really have that same lugging feeling. Instead I now get more of a a tight vibration I can feel in the grips and with my knees against tank. It's stronger when I'm accelerating hard. Should I just go and retorque ALL of the motor mount bolts? This thing is 10 years old and none of those bolts besides the ones I've been forced to go over have been touched since it was assembled. I've had: 1 exhaust header clamp bolt vibrate out, the other come loose (which is why my exhaust header clamp is warped). 1 motor mount bolt vibrate out. 1 toolbag cover and toolbag vibrate out. 1 left side frame cover vibrate off. Loosey goosey! |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by Serowbot on 10/01/11 at 16:13:10 I don't think there's any 15 or 16mm bolts on our bike... probably a 17mm... Stock muffler's heavy ain't it?... Dyna will save you 8lbs... ;)... |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by Fish on 10/01/11 at 16:16:26 17mm eh? Thanks Serowbot. It is! The Dyna is so much lighter. Maybe after I replace it I can break that 90mph mark, downhill, with a good tailwind! Hahaha. |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by Fish on 10/02/11 at 16:29:13 So when riding around today I feel the same vibration. It's pretty strong from 55mph on up through 70. Stronger vibration than I've ever had in the previous 5000miles with this bike. I haven't gone faster than 70 since I've been feeling this. It's a bit stronger on the right side grip and peg than on the left side. When I had my rear tire replaced the guy took off the old balancing weights on the spokes and added 7 oz weights and one 3/4oz weight because the wheel was that far off from being balanced. Any chance the front is pretty off too and a source of my vibs? Engine sounds right but this all doesn't feel right. I haven't yet checked the torque on all the other motor mount bolts yet. |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by Oldfeller on 10/02/11 at 17:00:21 You have 7 and 3/4 ounces of balance weights on the rear tire of a Savage? That is about six times what I would expect you to have !!! |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by Fish on 10/02/11 at 17:07:17 I took this before to show Verslagen about the location of my valve stem compared to where the dot on the tire is. You can see where the grouping of weights is. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v98/MadProfessor/dot.jpg I actually felt LESS vibration on my butt/lower back from the back of my seat than I had before having those weights. Before this other problem started. |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by RidgeRunner13 on 10/02/11 at 17:14:28 If you didn't have the vibration before you got the new tire I would suspect that the balance is wrong. If I had a motorcycle tire that needed that much weight to balance, I would take it off & send it back. I would take a marker & mark where the weights are(that way you can put them back if necessary), then take them off & go for a ride. Or maybe block the bike up to get the rear wheel off the ground & go through the gears (you can do this without removing the weights) & see if that was my vibration. ;D Mechanics rule: If a new problem shows up right after something has been changed or worked on, double check the previous work before doing anything else. 8-) |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by Fish on 10/02/11 at 17:18:34 The bike felt great for the first 9 days and 500 miles after getting the tire on. I felt LESS vibration from the rear than I had noticed before. This problem I'm feeling happend 10 days after getting the tire on and just after a 400 mile round trip ride from one side of the state to the other. |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by RidgeRunner13 on 10/02/11 at 17:27:00 I would still block it up with the tire off the ground & see what it felt like. It won't cost anything & would eliminate the rear tire/wheel assembly as the problem. With vibrations it's important to figure out what it ain't to figure out what it is. :-? 8-) |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by verslagen1 on 10/02/11 at 17:27:28 16392338500 wrote:
Top motor mount needs to be retorqued. Mine is over 20 years old. 8-) |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by verslagen1 on 10/02/11 at 17:32:28 250A100B630 wrote:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v98/MadProfessor/dot.jpg I hope he didn't charge you for all those wts. It was his screw up. That dot should be lined up with the valve stem. Cause it's almost 90° off, it makes sense where all the wts. are. And it's a pain in the ass to move it once it's on, so as long as it's balanced, fine. But if he didn't dynamically balance it, I'd go back and ask for it. Like I said, his screw up and you're feeling a problem. |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by Oldfeller on 10/02/11 at 17:32:31 Looking at the pic -- is his valve stem sitting crooked? I see the stem, where is the mark on his tire that indicates the matching lightest spot on the tire? I question the competence of his mounting/balancing person .... PS save all those unnecessary balance weights -- I want them !!! ;) |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by Fish on 10/02/11 at 17:37:07 I'll get that 17mm socket tomorrow and before work Tuesday I'll go over all the motor mount bolts and check them all out with my new torque wrench. I need to build the DIY $20 bike stand. Or spend $80 with a 20% off coupon I have for Harbor Freight and get their bike lift that has a good amount of positive reviews. 4F5C4B4A55585E5C5708390 wrote:
He showed me the wheel while it was on his balancer and showed that it had zero'd out after adding all that weight. No, he didn't charge me because he had quoted me a price before had and didn't say anything about cost of weights. He said afterwards that he'd have to change the wording of his quote for future customers because he put on about $12 worth of weights. He did take 2.5 hours to do the darn job, so yeah, not the most competent mechanic ever. 2F0C0406050C0C0512600 wrote:
So should I go back? A real mechanic should stand behind his work. |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by verslagen1 on 10/02/11 at 17:39:55 60434B494A43434A5D2F0 wrote:
:-? I have no such doubts that you've gotten the bottom of the barrel. You otta loan him your bb uzi for his next visit. |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by RidgeRunner13 on 10/02/11 at 17:44:38 I have a chunk of an 8"x8" about 18" long I shove under the right side by tilting it over on the sidestand. Then I stand the bike up & scoot it over on the 8" by. Works ok & costs nothing if you can find a scrap like I did. 8-) |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by Fish on 10/05/11 at 14:07:22 So things would seem to be even worse than I had realized. I took the tank off to get at the upper motor mount. Two of em were just a bit loose, but the 3rd bolt was completely loose. I could move it around by hand. I tightened those and all the lower mounts down with my torque wrench. I did the spark plug door mod while I had the tank off, just removed the 1 bolt closest to me. Since the plug was accessible I figured I'd take it out and read it. There was oil and filth all over the top of the head. The plug was loose. Found another source of my oil leak that had recently become much worse than before. (You'll scold me for this and Sammy might get hurt from it) But I didn't get that area cleaned out before taking out the plug. I actually unscrewed the plug by hand because it was THAT loose, and I didn't have a metric sized spark plug socket. Rode my bicycle to Home Depot and got a socket, cleaned the plug up with a brush, carefully put the plug back in because it was good and showing that I was expectedly running a bit lean in stock form. Got the tank back on and fired her up. I rode it around the neighborhood for a short ride and didn't feel much vibration, think the motor mounts were the problem. It even felt better on idle. But during that short ride I heard some noise I'd never heard (I didn't have my helmet on so I could hear it) I quickly went back home. The bike has been ticking for a while now, that's not that new. It just sounds worse than it had been. It sounds even worse on video =/ http://youtu.be/EHXBAKzyr9c Valves out of whack and Cam Tensioner about to go? |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by SurfJunkie on 10/05/11 at 14:46:40 YUCK. Deff sounds like the cam chain/tensioner. Ive listened/looked at the other 3 vids of other people with their tensioner shot and or it bouncing off the gear and it sounds darn near exactly like that. I highly suggest you find that post or thread, and listen to the vids. I fired my bike up this morning just to be sure it didn't sound like that. ( it doesn't thank GOD. its an 87 with 29K on it, and i have no friggin clue about its past service history. I got my fingers, toes, and any other crossable appendage crossed ! ) Time for you to drop your oil, pull the cover, and inspect it. I predict a "omg help me versy" PM being sent soon.... |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by Fish on 10/05/11 at 14:49:29 This thing is my only vehicle. I don't know what I'm going to do if I can't have it on the road. |
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Title: Re: Bike is Feeling Odd Post by SurfJunkie on 10/05/11 at 15:31:18 Heres OF's thread. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1308708632 The first vid sounds way worse then yours, but this user's i believe was actually completely out of the assembly and literally bouncing off the gear. Perhaps what you've thought was the valves needing adjusting has been the tensioner singing its farewell. Id wait for one of the more knowledgeable guys to comment ( V1, OF etc. ) before going after anything. Personally, id pull the cover first and have a look at the tensioner. If after measurement its not over extended, scope the valve clearance. |
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