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Message started by verslagen1 on 11/04/10 at 16:01:10

Title: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by verslagen1 on 11/04/10 at 16:01:10

So after several stories of newbes getting shafted and a couple of questions and many "don't buy pre'96" and quite frankly getting a couple of them pretty darn cheap... I decided to look into upgrading the starter gears. † :o
See starter clutch old.jpg

Pre'95's don't have a starter torque limiting clutch. †So what happens is on shut down the engine kicks back on the last rev. †This will engage the one way clutch and bust out the mounting of either the gears or the starter. †Not something that can be easily fixed. † :'(

But, as it turns out easily prevented. †All '96's and later have a torque limiter gear that releases the torque before it blows out the mounts. †So how do you get those gears on the old bikes? †Simple, buy the torque limiter, a '96 or later idler gear and stator cover. †And the darn thing just bolts in.

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by verslagen1 on 10/08/22 at 07:06:46

Here's the stock gears in a '88 case...

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by verslagen1 on 10/08/22 at 07:07:23

And the new gears in a '88 case...
See new-in-old-case.jpg

The torque limiter is quite a bit taller than the '88 spur gear.
And the mating idle gear is the same as an '88.
The '96 and later cases machined to fit, but you could rework the old case I've been told.

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by dvansyck on 01/15/11 at 18:15:52

Yes you can make the case cover work with the larger gear. This case is from a 1986 savage.

One tip, getting the gear to fit can be snug but if you line up the notch in the rotor (circled in red) with where the gear fits into the case it will slide right in.

http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz322/bug_dragon89/gear.jpg

I took out about 1/2 inch of material and drilled out the hole, slowly. I kept checking the fit and making sure the gear wouldn't bind and everything would turn freely.

http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz322/bug_dragon89/IMGP0488.jpg

http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz322/bug_dragon89/IMGP0489.jpg

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by greenmonster on 01/20/11 at 13:31:07

Do you need to upgrade the idler gear as well, or will it work with the stock idler gear?

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by dvansyck on 01/20/11 at 13:51:53


7C697E7E75767475686F7E691B0 wrote:
Do you need to upgrade the idler gear as well, or will it work with the stock idler gear?


I didn't upgrade the idler gear. Just the torque limiter gear.

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by stoner on 02/17/11 at 04:20:21

There is another option I elected to go with for my wives 86.  The orginial engine had the the case broken when it kicked back on shut down.  Picked up a used engine on Ebay, but did not want the same thing to happen again.  I found a guy in Germany (I am alsmost sure it was through this site who put me onto the German Savage site) who makes an electronic device that you just clip into your wiring harness.  What the device does is that when you hit the kill switch on shutdown, it engages the decompression selnoid which opens the exhust valve (just like on start up) for a few seconds to allow the compression of the engine to be bled off so it doesn't build up and do the kick back which rips out the gears.  the item comes encased in a small length of garden hose ( 2in) and has the wires sticking out with detailed instructions.  Had it installed in under 10 mins; fits under the gas tank.  Have had it on now since 2006 and it works great.  When you hit the kill switch you can hear the selnoid being engaged.  Cost I think was around $70.00 Cdn, but is money well spent.  Still have the guys address if anyone is interested. Can take pics of the install if anyone wishes.

Stoner    

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by Flemming from Denmark on 02/19/11 at 15:00:32

Stoner << Would like to have his adress, and also pic's off yours. Made one  myself once by a German diagram. But it after a while it started to engage (Open the valves) when I was driving. Not good - and I could not find the reason. Something with the large capacitor would be my guess

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by fsmidt on 02/20/11 at 12:26:17

take a look at the dutch savage forum.
several years ago i bought 2 modules from gerd out of germany.
one got to hot and melted down.
after dissambling the module from its silicon kit, i made pictures and how to assembly.

http://www.suzukisavage.nl/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=25.html

look on the 2nd page open the pictures stap1.jpg till stap12.jpg

buy the components and start to solder,i`m not a genius in soldering but managed to make a working piece.
language is dutch but pictures are clear.
maybey someone overhere who can make an better howto in english.(oldfeller makes beautifull ones :)  )
if something is not clear you always can ask me.
send me a mail, i`m not daily in this forum.

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by Fujisawa Rob on 04/11/11 at 06:59:34


747368696275070 wrote:
There is another option I elected to go with for my wives 86. †The orginial engine had the the case broken when it kicked back on shut down. †Picked up a used engine on Ebay, but did not want the same thing to happen again. †I found a guy in Germany (I am alsmost sure it was through this site who put me onto the German Savage site) who makes an electronic device that you just clip into your wiring harness. †What the device does is that when you hit the kill switch on shutdown, it engages the decompression selnoid which opens the exhust valve (just like on start up) for a few seconds to allow the compression of the engine to be bled off so it doesn't build up and do the kick back which rips out the gears. †the item comes encased in a small length of garden hose ( 2in) and has the wires sticking out with detailed instructions. †Had it installed in under 10 mins; fits under the gas tank. †Have had it on now since 2006 and it works great. †When you hit the kill switch you can hear the selnoid being engaged. †Cost I think was around $70.00 Cdn, but is money well spent. †Still have the guys address if anyone is interested. Can take pics of the install if anyone wishes.

Stoner † †


So it opens the comp valve for a few seconds then kills the ignition? Could you rig a manual switch to do the same thing?

I'm good with soldering, and could probably duplicate based on the diagram, but it seems like it would be easier to find the gear and the case, or mod my case.

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by Fujisawa Rob on 04/11/11 at 07:49:00

Part # for limiter appears to be 12600-24B01.

About $130 new!


Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by verslagen1 on 04/15/11 at 09:03:02


6D7C7C766F6D767E71761F0 wrote:
Part # for limiter appears to be 12600-24B01.

About $130 new!


You can find it on fleabay for $100 less.

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by OldenGnarley on 05/31/11 at 05:42:02

You said:
Pre'96's don't have a starter torque limiting clutch. †So what happens is on shut down the engine kicks back on the last rev. †This will engage the one way clutch and bust out the mounting of either the gears or the starter. †Not something that can be easily fixed.

if this has happened...how can it be fixed? :(





Corrected year -v1

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by Oldfeller on 05/31/11 at 06:40:36


Theoretically?

A tig welder and a machinist.



Practically?

The full split the cases tear down plus cost of welding/machining repairs is more than a used engine would cost.

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by Bobber Fett on 09/27/11 at 05:40:56

Thanks a ton! No wonder I couldn't find it! Buying it now.  Do I also need the idler?  I saw dvansyck didn't replace it, and I guess it worked well for him.

I may go the machining route on the cover because I have access to a mill at work and It looks like the case is aluminum.  I'll take hard measurements of what needs to be removed unless someone has that already (dvansyck said .5in).  Is there any issue with removing too much?  Are those posts I'd be shortening helping hold the gear in?

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by verslagen1 on 09/27/11 at 07:25:39

I'd measure the difference in the gears for myself.
remember there's supposed to be washers on either side of that gear.

And I do think it's the same idle gear for any year.

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by SurfJunkie on 10/06/11 at 11:24:52

Ive got all the schematics needed to make the electronic fix.

Ill source the parts and see how much they cost. I work for a consumer electronics company as a Engineer/Tech, and solder daily. After i have the components, it shouldn't take me very long to make this.

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by BurnPgh on 11/14/11 at 20:30:55

someone on the german savage forum was making them if i recall and they worked, but after a few years a few started to fail and the one exhast valve that the decompressor acts on was held open. Not great. probably cheaper to go electrical and more robust to swap gears and, if necessary, case covers. Both are possible. Both work. One has failed. The other, so far, has not.

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by matos on 11/15/11 at 15:19:58

going the electrical solution, whats the worst thing it can happen when it fails?

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by verslagen1 on 11/16/11 at 12:06:04

The chief problem with the exh valve being held open is no power and loss of rpm's. †I don't think it'll ruin it, just your day and maybe a pair of shoes.

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by matos on 11/16/11 at 14:24:08

Thank you verslagen1, that was the answer i was looking for, im gona try the electrical fix and later on ill look for a good deal on the gears.

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by verslagen1 on 05/24/12 at 21:56:36

Couldn't get at the '88, so I measured the '02.
straight edge over the side of the case (where the gasket goes)
it measure 12mm exactly to the boss of the pinion gear.
and the idle gear boss is exactly even.

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by Bobber Fett on 05/31/12 at 05:15:42


Quote:
Couldn't get at the '88, so I measured the '02.
straight edge over the side of the case (where the gasket goes)
it measure 12mm exactly to the boss of the pinion gear.
and the idle gear boss is exactly even.


How far below the lower edge of the starter driven gear is the boss of the pinion/idle gear?

On the original gear the teeth that interact with the starter driven gear (#8) are flush with the pinion boss, but on the new gear there is a washer added plus a new lip created because the center shaft protrudes from the gear a bit (~0.049" if I remember). †I'll need to get the boss of the pinion gear lowered until those additional distances are gone (or close to it). †Then the teeth on the new gear and the starter driven gear will be in the same plane.

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by verslagen1 on 08/17/12 at 11:37:10


272A2423343277717F7E460 wrote:
Incidentally I got a limiter assembly on ebay that came off a 1998 VL1500 which uses the same part.

thanks 87, I didn't know that.   8-)

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by giannishazel on 02/26/13 at 13:28:35

OK.so i have a pre 95 model(650)and i am going to do the upgrade.i bought the case cover(of later 95) and the torque limiter gear.
1.can i just put the new torque gear next to my idle gear and then the new case cover?
2.would i need anything else?
3.as i can see the torque gear has 2 washers one on each side.does the idle gear have a washer?
4.are the gaskets the same of pre 95 and later 95 of the cover ?
5.and a last question.is there an oil passage at the screws of the †cover case and if there is at which screw?
thanks a lot..and pre 95 owners do this upgrade †cause i found this trouble the hard way..the case had about 5cm cracks on idle gear position and a piece was missing on the place the other gear sat...thanks god for the good welders

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by verslagen1 on 02/26/13 at 13:49:29

1. yes, the post95 cover is wider, but the same at the idler.
2. no.
3. you need washers on the torque limiter gear only, as both sides of the shaft are splined.  The idler gear does not because it's smooth.
4. yes.
5. no.

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by verslagen1 on 12/29/14 at 21:14:22

Also note the location of the washer...

It goes on the shaft shown and not on the shaft with the X.

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by ryanwilliam on 01/15/15 at 14:57:21

I've got an 87 and I am working on sourcing the idler gear and a newer stator cover.  (If anyone has either, PM me.)  Will I have to remove the stator to switch the gears?  If so, what type of puller tool will I need?

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by verslagen1 on 01/15/15 at 15:04:11


101B030C150B0E0E0B030F620 wrote:
Will I have to remove the stator to switch the gears? †If so, what type of puller tool will I need?

Rarely, sometimes you need to align a relief in the stator to the position and sometimes it'll go in anywhere.

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by verslagen1 on 04/13/20 at 21:00:29

On stator covers without the torque limiter, the boss is .513" below the surface.

On stator covers with the torque limiter, the boss is 1.034" below the surface.

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by verslagen1 on 10/08/22 at 07:23:52

Pic's updated

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by Gregoryan on 10/08/22 at 14:59:10

Subject; Avoiding starter drive breakages;
I bought an 86 model, new, in 86! [ that makes sense!] it wasnt long until a tooth was broken out of the large starter ring gear. It wasnt long out of warranty, but Suzuki wouldnt give me a replacement. so the whole Huuge starter clutch had to be replaced [ about $300+ !] ( i learned later that a tooth can be built-up out of braising, and re profiled by hand - on a simple profiled tooth shape!) Anyhow;.. To stop this happening again , from the shut-down bounce-back , from compression,.... i made a simple sheet metal decomp lever. This is pressed at the time of/, or just after switching off the iggnition! It is fitted strait to the head's de-comp shaft. it is in addition to the eggzisting cable-starter de-comp system. i loaned the bike to a tomboy girl for a couple years - she always shut it down with this method too, and we have never had any more breakages! I shal try to get a closupp of lever later.
Later!

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by Plymark on 01/06/23 at 01:06:43

So, parts 8, 10 & 11 are new?

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by verslagen1 on 01/06/23 at 07:37:50


5F6376626E7D640F0 wrote:
So, parts 8, 10 & 11 are new?

I assume you're referring to this?
http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/starter_clutch_old_001.jpg
The design of these parts hasn't changed from the beginning.

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by Coleman118 on 09/06/23 at 17:23:35

I have an 87 and when I replaced the stator i had a snap ring washer on the front gear but not one on the other side and canít find one could this also be why I havenít had spark ?

Title: Re: Starter Gear Upgrade
Post by verslagen1 on 09/06/23 at 20:49:32


57707A726E71707A727C190 wrote:
I have an 87 and when I replaced the stator i had a snap ring washer on the front gear but not one on the other side and canít find one could this also be why I havenít had spark ?

remove snap ring as it doesn't belong there.

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