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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> oil level in window /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1288398790 Message started by mscepu101 on 10/29/10 at 17:33:10 |
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Title: oil level in window Post by mscepu101 on 10/29/10 at 17:33:10 I am a newbie savage owner. I purchased a 1999 savage and changed the oil as specified in the manual. I drained the oil changed the filter and added 2.5 qts of suzuki 10w40. However, know the oil level in the "window" is all the way to top! How can this be? I drained the oil for 20 minutes until no drips were present. Has anyone else encounterd this and have they drained off the excess? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 10/29/10 at 17:36:45 Did you change the filter too? 2 quarts and maybe a cup puts it right when you change filter too. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by verslagen1 on 10/29/10 at 17:49:40 There's plenty of places that won't drain unless you tip from side to side. Next time, just 2 qts, even a qt and half is fine for a start and see where you're at. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by mscepu101 on 10/29/10 at 17:57:37 Thanks for the info! I did change out the filter when I changed the oil. Now that it is reading high should I drain off the excess or ride it out? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by verslagen1 on 10/29/10 at 18:08:29 I'd drain it a little, but it's ok to be at the top of the window. you should see a level while it's on the stand. Ask OF how much over is ok. Easy way to drain a little is to take out the timing port cover. Put some tape under the hole to act as a spout or it'll run down the side. Take the cover off leaning the bike to the opposite side. Put it back on the stand and it should come out, but I'd start with level and see what the level drains to. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by mscepu101 on 10/29/10 at 19:16:56 I just drained approx 1 pt from the total oil added when I changed the filter an oil. The level is between the marks in the window. I appreciate the time and advice given to help me though my first oil change. It just seems odd that the dealer and manual stated to add 2.5 qts when changing the oil and filter. I hope I did not damage my engine with the increased oil level. I did ride the bike about 6 miles before I drained off the excess. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Digger on 10/29/10 at 19:37:22 283626203530747574450 wrote:
No Asian motorcycle I've ever owned needed the amount of oil the manual said to add after an oil change. My Savage (see signature) takes two quarts on the button (with a filter change) to get the oil level to midway between the marks by the window. IHTH! |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Garyt on 10/29/10 at 19:38:10 There was a poll about this topic http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1283793450/0#0 It is a good read Gary |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 10/30/10 at 09:09:02 When I have my bike on the sidestand, and the wheel to the right, I had better see oil.....p e r i o d. ! If I don't, I add till it gets to the low line. And yes, this is well overfilled according to Suzuski's very stupid way of checking the oil,....and thats good. And I think that is about 2.25 gts. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 10/30/10 at 09:17:23 Overfilling, satisfying, relief from worrying, mmmmmm mmmmm good ..... Ahhhhh !!! ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by mscepu101 on 10/30/10 at 10:17:18 Gee whiz! Is there a tech bulletin on this topic? Does anyone have an engineering analyis to clarify this issue? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by drums1 on 10/30/10 at 10:33:14 Mine's an '87. 2 quarts and a spritz does the trick. I fill it up until 1/2 way up sight glass when sitting level. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Bug Chaser on 10/30/10 at 11:19:30 When I change the oil I usually fill to the mid level of the window, on a level surface, When the bike is warmed up, the level gets to about the top of the window, on level surface. All thumpers burn oil, especally when running at superslab speeds. So, check from time to time and add if needed. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 10/30/10 at 12:17:12 <Gee whiz! Is there a tech bulletin on this topic? Does anyone have an engineering analyis to clarify this issue?> Well now, go to the tech section and look ..... (hee hee) earl, is that you buddy? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Boofer on 10/30/10 at 21:02:51 7B5658585A4D3F0 wrote:
No Asian motorcycle I've ever owned needed the amount of oil the manual said to add after an oil change. My Savage (see signature) takes two quarts on the button (with a filter change) to get the oil level to midway between the marks by the window. IHTH![/quote] Digger, I agree about the manual. My bike sits level where I park it, so I just use the extension mirror from Auto Zone ($2) before I ever crank it. I just lean it till it's about balanced and wait for the Rotella to get above halfway. Takes a little longer for it to show up than the synthetics, but no problem. I would like to urge everybody to have good idle speed to pump the oil up that long way to the cam. And let it run at least a minute before you pull away..2 minutes would even be better. I noticed my wife letting her car run about a minute before putting it in gear last week. After 33 years of explaining it she is doing her best to keep our repair bills down. I know it's just metal, but your bike (or car) will thank you for it. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Lupo on 10/30/10 at 23:46:13 . |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Serowbot on 10/31/10 at 00:49:21 Lupo,... I need my oil checked ,.... again... Can you bring your buddies and tools?... :-?... ... and I think my wurber might be missconfabulated.... :-/... |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 10/31/10 at 02:14:01 mscepu101, You may garner from the humorous comments above that oil level is like oil brands around here, subject to much energetic and humorous bantering. Suzuki has a checking method they recommend that is somewhat labor intensive and leaves you with a certain amount (small) of oil reserve. On new bikes that use no oil, this is fine. Do it the book way. Newbies still have great faith in books like Clymers and user manuals and stuff like that. Once you have rubbed the sharp corners off your new S40 with some user miles (over 10,000 of them) and begin to use a little oil you will begin to appreciate the old timers point of view on this subject, which is to fill the bike on the side stand so you can see it peeping over the bottom edge of the window. (yes Virginia - this is overfilled to the book method). But now, in order for this here "oil fill war" to start itself up all properly like, all somebody has to do is state that the book method is the right and proper way and state some reason as to why that is (even the old hack about Suzuki engineers knowing what they are talking about will do). Them eager bored boys is all ready and waiting, everyone has answered the roll call and they all has their kevlar kit on ..... |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Boofer on 10/31/10 at 05:21:31 OF, The Newbies keep us sharp by asking questions we haven't heard before, and you've got to admit the pictures in Clymers are great when you go in to eat lunch and wipe out your memory while doing a teardown. Especially if you are prone to having a quick nap after lunch. Or is that just me? Boofer |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 10/31/10 at 06:17:39 ;D I love my Clymers manual -- but mine is fully annotated with lots of reality notes and has corrections written in for all the many goof ups that the list has uncovered the hard way. And we HAVE to have newbies, no one experienced will crank off a good boredom-killing discussion unless a newbie steps on a land mine first and blows his leg off ..... hee hee hee, silly newbie ..... first you stop the arterial bleeding then you can start discussing the points at hand. =================================== A point at hand then, manual sez 2.5 quarts goes in at an oil change. Well, when you use the low window to mid-window on the side stand method, guess about how much oil you got in there? Yup, about 2.5 quarts, give or take. And it ain't gonna fit in there if you are upright, no way no how. So which one was the Suzuki/Clymer's goof this time -- the amount of oil or the inspection method? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/31/10 at 07:36:59 Oil isnt an "Exact" thing. Not even in cars. The dipstick on a car has a Low & High level with a set of "Keep it Tween these lines" marks. No need to have a coronary over a coupla ounces. The folks here have demonstrated that the engine wont suffer from being a bit over full. Next time I change oil, I think Ill go with that. Some folks even fill it till they see oil in the window while its on the stand. I like the More OIl idea because oil is important to the cooling of the engine &, since mine uses oil, that means I have a cushion before I have to add or hurt something. Actually, how Much oil isnt neeeaaarrly as important as What KIND. Ive heard that Klotz is such a fine product that the engine can be run with NO OIl IN it, as long as you slap a Klotz decal ON the Engine itself. On the gas tank wont do, the engine has to feel the Klotz ON it, or itlll blow. Well,, I Think I heard that, somewhere,, |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 10/31/10 at 07:41:19 ;D Oh my goodness .... we done got us a billistic agent provocateur You know if you provoke them billisms HE will appear and sprinkle red magic fairy dust over this discussion, don't you? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/31/10 at 07:46:04 Im just goofin, yu know? Bill's a good egg, when hes not busy being a curmudgeon. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 10/31/10 at 08:03:35 Klotz being red shows up really good in the oil window,Just another of its many benefits. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by verslagen1 on 10/31/10 at 08:10:45 2C27222278794E0 wrote:
Unless you actually use your bike, then it turns black just like the good ol' amber stuff. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 10/31/10 at 08:15:29 After 4000 miles with the same Klotz the oil hasn't changed color at all,Its just as clean as the day I put it in,The reason better ring to wall seal,Without out that your oil will get dirty. 8-) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 10/31/10 at 08:42:40 Let's see, 4,000 miles divided by 710 miles per year is what ?? 5.63 isn't it ??? So, it's been 5+ years since Bill last changed his oil and 29 years since the last time he adjusted his valves ..... and it's still nice and red. So remember Bill's sage words of wisdom: "After 4000 miles with the same Klotz the oil hasn't changed color at all,Its just as clean as the day I put it in,The reason better ring to wall seal,Without out that your oil will get dirty." ;D without "out" how would you ever know what color it is? I think the appropriate Billistic translation is that red dust Klotz magic is transcendental, bridging both time and motorcycles to keep its virgin redness intact. Remember, Verslagen's opinion after using a gallon of the exact same oil doesn't count, as he doesn't clap for Tinkerbell and he doesn't put out milk for the red-dust pixies like a true believer would do -- he is an unbeliever and according to Bill he is to be counted among the many liars that post around her. ;D ;D ;D ;D Back to the question on the table -- which one is the Suzuki/Clymer goof this time? The amount of oil or the inspection method? One of them has to be listed on the master Clymer's Goof Listing in Tech Section .... Which one shall it be ? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 10/31/10 at 08:58:10 ..... and for you Bill, I have a dirty rotten trick question. If Klotz provides a better piston ring to wall seal, is the Klotz moving with the piston ring like a surface coating or is it staying unaffected on the cylinder wall with the piston rings jest sliding over the top of it? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 10/31/10 at 09:04:14 Which piston are you talking about? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 10/31/10 at 09:12:58 ..... we only got one piston in our engine Bill, and I don't think we have been talking about the rubber cup piston in the master cylinder, now have we? Are you perhaps confusing this with your Klotz fork oil? In which case that would be pistons (2) because we have two down tubes on the front forks. But no, I think Verslagen was talking about Klotz engine oil turning black to which you replied ..... "After 4000 miles with the same Klotz the oil hasn't changed color at all,Its just as clean as the day I put it in,The reason better ring to wall seal,Without out that your oil will get dirty." ============================ and to further confuse you, let's get back to the question on the table .... Back to the question on the table -- which one is the Suzuki/Clymer goof this time? The amount of oil or the inspection method? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by mscepu101 on 10/31/10 at 09:21:17 Holy smokes! Alot of good action on a Sunday morning! I called my local Suzuki dealer and described to him my plight. He stated that the windows on this enging design were not placed very well. He said that anywhere between the two marks to the top of the window is OK. Just don't put in 3 qts (US). All that said...this engine design has been around nearly 30 years and since Suzuki has never formally addressed the issue I am feeling a little better that some extra oil will not kill the enging. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 10/31/10 at 09:23:42 Klotz......red ??? Around here don't matter what it is, if its red, it goes in an automatic transmission, or in a power steering ! |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/31/10 at 09:36:07 534D5D5B4E4B0F0E0F3E0 wrote:
As long as its not spankin the shaft thats doin the crankin, you wont be walkin |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 10/31/10 at 09:39:14 Let's see, what sort of qualified person is available at a Suzuki Dealership on a Sunday afternoon ..... a sales person perhaps? Ok, we have been officially told by a floor sales person from Somesmalltown Suzuki USA --- the official answer to our oil level question which is "the oil window ain't quite right". I guess this means everyone that has run out of oil after following the Owner's Manual and munched their engine is due some recompense by that Suzuki place ...... Where was that again exactly? We got lots of folks here on the list that wish to call them or email them to file a claim for their money ..... ;D ;D ;D ;D PS can we get that answer in writing, please ??? Next, the other window, which way is it offset? (yeah, we got one) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/31/10 at 10:48:18 Whuuu? OHHH THAAAT "window"/// . I was a bit "shocked" I was even able to remember it. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 10/31/10 at 11:06:56 It ain't hard, we only got two fluids associated with a Savage so you only got one other choice. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Charon on 10/31/10 at 11:09:23 Guess again, OF. There is yet a third window. And a third fluid level to check. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 10/31/10 at 12:11:02 We got oil, we got brake fluid, what other fluid are you thinking that has a clear window? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Serowbot on 10/31/10 at 12:22:17 597A7270737A7A7364160 wrote:
Battery?... :-?... |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Charon on 10/31/10 at 12:45:24 Serobot got it. There is a window in the battery box. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 10/31/10 at 12:56:09 Theres a window in the battery box but if you can see the water level you have a lot better eyes than I have. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 10/31/10 at 13:00:53 Oh yeah, so that make 2 out of 3 windows that are near worthless. So how well does the brake fluid window work ? I just found it the other day, and I couldn't see nothing thru it. Either its dry, or too full, or the windshield had too many bugs on it. But its still stoppin, so I guess its ok. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 10/31/10 at 13:10:01 And if your motorcycle started the battery must be OK,And engine running oil must be OK. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/31/10 at 13:11:59 I had the battery window, I was "shocked" that I remembered it.. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 10/31/10 at 13:44:03 So we all agree with the newbie's Suzuki sales person that all the various windows on a Savage are all screwed up ...... ;D So, is the amount of oil in the manual (2.5 quarts) or is the Suzuki checking method involving the "screwed up out of place" oil checking window messed up? Let me give you a hint, they can't raise the window itself because the top of the window is right at the bottom edge of the oil shelf. Plus, obviously, most of the Savages that will ever be in existence are already built and are in our hands. So, oil amount of 2.5 quarts or the checking method -- which is in error? saying that the oil viewing window is "screwed up" is a cop out, the bikes are already built and are in our hands .... |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Charon on 10/31/10 at 14:33:58 I do not agree that the windows are "screwed up." Overfilling the master cylinder will do no harm, as long as you don't spill fluid all over the bike when reinstalling the cover. The battery window only provides a chance to observe the lines on the battery - and on only one cell at that. The engine oil check window seems to work just fine for me, as long as I hold the bike where it balances. Where's the problem? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 10/31/10 at 14:49:42 Ask the Suzuki Salesman -- our official source for the screw-uppedness. Heck, don't ask me -- I ignore the other two as unnecessary and use the oil window in a way that works better (and hits pretty close to the 2.5 quarts mentioned in the owners manual). I'm the official thought provoker in this war and the question on the table is "which item is wrong"? Charon says the oil window and the other windows aren't screwed up, they are what they are. So it gets down to -- what is the answer the question on the table. Back to the question on the table -- which one is the Suzuki/Clymer goof this time? The amount of oil or the inspection method? One of them has to be listed on the master Clymer's Goof Listing in Tech Section .... Which one shall it be ? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 10/31/10 at 16:08:27 Quote: So, oil amount of 2.5 quarts or the checking method -- which is in error? ------------------------------------------------------------ Simple, only an idiot would design that method of checking oil. And we all proved that its wrong. And we all proved the right way to do it,....leave it on the side stand, (I prefer wheel to the right) and use the 2.5 qt. capacity. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Serowbot on 10/31/10 at 16:12:55 Our oil gauge is a lot better than our gas gauge... :-?... |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by rokrover on 10/31/10 at 16:27:13 As Verslagen said, there's lots of nooks and crannies you can't fully drain. 2.5 qts. is the factory service manual recommendation (p.2-10) ONLY after a total engine rebuild that removes all oil. Otherwise, 2.1 qts. for usual oil + filter change or 1.9 qts. for oil drain only. When checking the sight glass allow for oil expansion when hot that should not exceed the upper mark. Otherwise you risk aerating the oil and too much blow by. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Charon on 10/31/10 at 17:11:13 It is easy to say "..only an idiot woud design that method of checking oil." Perhaps it isn't so easy to design a better system. Remember, of course, that cost is always an issue. The ideal would be to put the sight glass on the centerline of the bike, so it would always read correctly whether the bike was level or not. But that puts it either on the front subject to rocks from the front tire, or on the rear where it would be impossible to see. A dipstick is another nice choice, but runs into the same problems of levelling the bike. My old Twinstar had a dipstick. Checking the oil required removing the dipstick and wiping it clean, holding the bike level and reinserting the dipstick, then removing the dipstick and trying to see where the oil line really was (difficult with clean oil). If the dipstick were on centerline, where it needs to be, it becomes difficult to access. I think the best solution is a center stand. Then, either a dipstick or a sight glass becomes easy. My 2007 250 Ninja has a center stand - but Kawasaki removed the center stand from newer ones. My '83 Suzuki Tempter had a center stand and sight glass. Those of us who buy bikes without a center stand generate many of our own problems. It is easy for us to nitpick and gripe about how poorly designed things are. It is not so easy to redesign them. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by mscepu101 on 10/31/10 at 17:34:27 I agree. I consider my self a newbie savage owner only because this is my first bike since being absent from the sport for nearly 20 years. After taking the BRC I realized I never was as good as I thought I was and I should get a bike that inspires confidence so that I can acquire skill. That being said my two prior bikes (GS450E ('81) and GS850 ('80)) both had center stands that were very useful. Not to mention tripmeters! Checking the oil was easy! And accurate. I hope to keep my savage a good while but may investigate how to get a center stand. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 10/31/10 at 18:24:08 If you had a dip stick to check the oil every time you wipe it of to check you waste oil and good oil aint cheap. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 10/31/10 at 21:03:17 Quote: It is easy for us to nitpick and gripe about how poorly designed things are. It is not so easy to redesign them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Who said it needs redesigning ? If you had been paying attention, you would know that it doesn't need redesigning. It works perfect just like it is,......just leave it on the side stand and keep the oil tween the marks. Repeat,.....it doesn't need redesigning, because it works perfect just the way it is if checked while on the side stand. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/01/10 at 03:14:52 Rokrover brings up the point of whupping up excess oil and making froth which is a reasonable enough concern based upon machinery in general. The concern really doesn't apply to us Savagers and these are the reasons why. The Savage has an oil shelf that is integral to the cases that encloses the crankshaft to protect it from oil splash from the gear case. This shelf is just above the oil window, so you will know its location. The main oil gallery run is part of the web structure, so you can place it that way as well. So, no frothing from crank hitting anything. Ditto for the countershaft -- it also is enclosed and is much higher up, on top of the crank to the front of the engine. The gear clusters are in line horizontally with the crank shaft (which is centered 2.75 inches over the oil shelf) and the gear clusters aren't as big as the crank counterweight which is pretty large. There is no shelf under the gear clusters, but since they are up out of the oil, it likely isn't needed as the gears would probably like an occasional splash or two of oil. Next, the oil level drops down WELL BELOW THE WINDOW when you crank up the bike. The missing oil goes into circulation in the galleries, the barrel and head oil passages, the head bath and also we have enforced circulation inside all the hollow parts of the gear shafts and inside the large oil passages integral to that big crankshaft (yup, our crank assembly carries pressurized oil all the time). This is true even when you use the full 2.5 quarts by using the sidestand check method, the oil immediately drops way below the window -- so it is like 1.5-2.0 inches below the oil shelf and about 2.5-3.0 inches away from the largest gear cluster. I don't think oil frothing is a big issue, I certainly haven't noticed any froth or bubbling in the oil window after running the bike. I do notice the window stays pretty much empty for about the first 2-5 seconds after you cut the bike off but the oil comes back down from the top end pretty quickly after that and the window fills back up. Increased oil consumption -- nope, I haven't noted any. I didn't start using the trick until I already had some oil consumption so I will rely on others to more completely answer that question. Currently there are 25 people on the list using the 2.5 quart side stand check method and so far no one has reported any increased oil consumption or frothing. This is not an isolated trick, all these 25 people have watched the side stand oil drop down out of sight when the bike was cranked and all of them are aware of how much oil their bike uses and would be aware of any extra usage or frothing. And some of them are just doing it to catch me being wrong, so they are the very very best witnesses for any frothing or oil consumption. ;D ======================= And then there is Ed. Ed runs a large oil cooler that is only pumped full of oil when the bike is running. Ed sets his oil level to peep at the bottom of the window while the bike is held upright and is running at idle (after a few throttle blips to get it all up into the oil cooler that is). He runs his oil level about 0.75 - 1.0 inch below the oil shelf while the bike is running. Ed runs the highest oil level of any of us as there is at least a quart of oil up in that oil cooler that comes back down each time when he shuts the bike off. Mebbe he can shed some light on oil frothing or oil consumption as he has jest got to have him some crank and gear cluster oil contact when he first starts up the bike. I mean -- jest gotta be happening, big time. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/01/10 at 05:04:04 Frothing,....? Sounds like something near the same as foaming.... that used to happen way back in the 60's more when non detergent oil was very common ? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/01/10 at 05:26:10 Yeah, oil has improved a whole lot since then. If you use one of the Rotella family of oils you would likely have to work real real hard to get it to foam or froth since it was designed specifically to not do any of that sort of garbage. But we got 25 people using different oils, so let's see what they have to say about it. Remember, every one of us who changed over was a "Doubting Thomas" when we first did it and we all LOOKED HARD for this sorta stuff when we first did it .... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1283793450/26#26 |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/01/10 at 05:43:17 So it gets down to -- what is the answer to the question on the table. Back to the question that is on the table -- which one is the Suzuki/Clymer goof this time? The 2.5 quart amount of oil or the inspection method? One of them has to be listed on the master Clymer's Goof Listing in Tech Section as one of them is another goof .... one of them is gonna get another penciled note added to everybody's Clymer manual. Which one shall it be ? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/01/10 at 06:54:52 OF, Quit pretending you don't know ! ;) Where'd that poll go that had to do w/ this ? Seems like that answered it. Thinking back, when I bought my '07 used,.....and from a dealer, the oil was between the lines when on the stand. I thought that was normal, so did they I'd guess. But my brother....who has an '07 also, like'ta had heart failure over it, showed me the book. So like an idiot, I changed oil, and filled and checked like the book. But after my bike fell over while checking the oil the book way, (rolled forward off the stand when letting it back down) thats when (a year+ ago) I brought this up here. And it has been in controversy ever since. In the meantime, I realized that the previous owners mamma didn't raise no dummy, and checking oil is no longer an issue for me. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/01/10 at 06:56:47 I hold the brake when I lean mine up to look at oil, but , Next oil change, I wont. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/01/10 at 07:20:17 Routy, you are convinced ..... I am convinced ..... 23 others are convinced ..... But there are hundreds of others that either do not know, or are not convinced. That's most of the list, BTW. All any of them would have to do to disprove the "check it on the side stand, use the 2.5 quarts of oil" position is to do it as an experiment and find some issue with it and report it. The very most credible witness is the Doubting Thomas (Charon, for example) who goes into it as a total skeptic and either finds out the problems that it causes or eventually reports it has no evil associated with it. You and I cannot do this, we had oil consumption going on beforehand or else had been constantly doing the method from before by means of the previous owner. What we need are some brave persons who have no current issues with oil consumption to carefully do the changeover experiment and to report what issues they find over the course of an oil change or two. Face it, a population of 25 older bikes with tons of miles on the odometer isn't a fair population to say "you got no issues" -- it is a skewed sample from the get go. We need some newer bikes with NO OIL CONSUMPTION ISSUES to do the side stand method and to report on what they find before you try to say you have a full and complete answer. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/01/10 at 13:53:08 I've been using Suzuki system for oil check for years,and have no problem with it. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/01/10 at 15:44:20 5.08 years is a lot of years on an oil change, yes it certainly is a bunch of years, and 4,000 miles is a lot of miles on an oil change (hey, it's same oil change too) ..... And did you remember to mention that your Klotz 15w50 racing oil is still nice and red and as clean as when you put it in? And that you had to do NO MAINTENANCE to anything on your bike during that entire time? And that your longest "maintenance free" record is 29 years since the last time you had to adjust a valve clearance? ;D ;D ;D ;D Wow, that's amazing Bill !!! Just how did you do this truly unusual accomplishment? Have you had time to think about your piston rings any? -- as to whether the Klotz goes up and down with the ring like a coating on the outside of it, or does it adhere to and coat the cylinder wall and the rings just slides over the top of it? How does it make that amazing seal that leaks no gases and allows you to keep your oil virgin clean for that long a time and all those miles? 4,000 miles between oil changes and it never gets a dull red, it stays bright and clean as a whistle. Amazing !!! Is it because of the Suzuki Oil Checking Method? Does the balancing that you have to do help balance out the wear and make the oil last longer? Keeping the bike's karma balanced --- is that the secret? Share your secrets with us .... Ommmmmmm Ommmmmmm |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/01/10 at 15:47:40 Bill, Its ok,.....no one is twisting your arm to do it the right way ! ;D ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bill quote: I've been using Suzuki system for oil check for years,and have no problem with it. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/01/10 at 16:03:11 OF I never looked in there when the engines was running how would I know about the oil,Klotzs Techniplates all the metal in the engine.And how do you come up with me having so many miles on my bike. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/01/10 at 16:08:10 4F405A415D5B484A424C5B290 wrote:
I usually get a young girl with a mini skirt to hold up the bike up when I check the oil ;) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/01/10 at 16:17:33 Bill, as our leading expert on red super oils that last forever, we need you to commit your honesty and integrity to a very important project. We need to prove what liars all these side stand oil checking rascals really are !!! Bill, you are the only one we can trust to do this .... everyone else is a liar, you've proven this to us repeatedly. Verslagen, Charon -- they'd all ooze facts out of their mouths just as soon as not. Without changing your oil (it doesn't need it anyway) just unscrew the oil fill hole and put your funnel inside it. Turn your handle bars the way you always do when you get off the bike, so it will be just like you normally leave it. Let it sit on the side stand at the place you like to leave it at night when you put it to bed after a hard day of riding. (it is balanced and at completely at harmonious rest -- the magical feng shui rest state has been completely achieved) Then take your plastic bottle of that precious elixir of endless Savage motor life, the vaunted Klotz 15w50 four stroke racing snowmobile oil and ever so carefully pour a thin stream of glorious red into the funnel while watching the oil view window until you can see the glorious red magical stuff welling up into your spotlessly clean oil viewing window. Just think, you are adding even MORE red magical elixir to pump endless life through each passage and pore and gear and shaft and gallery and bearing -- who knows what might happen? It might fly .... or run without gasoline .... who knows until you try it? But then Bill, having done so you can blast those evil side stander checkers with the TRUTH about what you find (and please, don't tell them heathen heretics about the flying part -- they are unbelievers after all and they do not deserve to know about the Klotz miracles). |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/01/10 at 16:38:56 Bill, how many miles do you have on your bike? I don't think I quoted a total mileage, it was the mileage for your last oil change. I got my information from you, you told us you had 4,000 miles on this oil change. and you told Verslagen earlier that you put 710 miles per year on your bike, traveling 5 miles per day. The 5.63 years, well I'm ashamed to admit -- that was evil mathematics that I didn't do very well on a piece of scratch paper :-[ calculators do work better than scratch paper And Bill, Klotz gave up on Techniplate a long time ago - they now use the new Super Techniplate Technology, thats all that they use now-a-days. (it's much better..er..er, a brighter red..er and more magical...ier) ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/01/10 at 17:02:35 IT'S AN OIL WINDOW WAR BOYS AND GIRLS !!!!! Get out your funnels and your bottle of magic elixir and join Bill as he disproves the side stand people and exposes all their lies and issues !!!! Join the crusade for truth !!! Write down your mileage and add oil until it peeks up in the oil window with it resting in the feng shui full resting state (handle bars turned your normal way you always leave them and resting on the side stand where you always put it). Note down any oil consumption beyond what you normally use. If you want to observe the magic -- watch the oil window when you first crank the bike and watch the oil go down in the window. Then with it idling evenly put it bolt upright and note that the oil is still gone ....... Magic !!! It disappears !!! Now turn the bike off and say Shazzzam !! and the oil will reappear !!! And then put it back on the side stand and the window will clear and the oil will peek at you through the bottom of the oil window again just like Alice's magical Cheshire cat. (yep, it just winked at you .....) ;) Very important step BE VERY TRUTHFUL and add your results to the listing of sins which is located here: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1283793450/26#26 |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by drums1 on 11/01/10 at 18:33:04 Is it just me, or does Oldfeller genuinely dislike Bill67? Sure seems to be making an OVERLY LARGE DEAL out of minor disagreement. My God, it's 1/4 of a quart of oil difference. I've been filling mine to 1/2 glass, in the upright position, for some 7000 miles now. Still runs good, burns no oil. I read here once 2.2 quarts with a filter change. That's what I do. Occasionally, if I'm going on a long ride on a hot day, I'll put in a little extra--just to be safe. Low and behold, it's all still there when I park it. Still runs fine. No foaming. No blown up engine. I voted to stay neutral, because this debate is getting downright childish at times. Why don't we all go for a little ride and cool down? [smiley=vrolijk_26.gif] [smiley=shocked.gif] [smiley=vrolijk_26.gif] |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/01/10 at 19:14:13 No Drums, I don't dislike Bill -- he and I talk on the list more often than anybody else you see on here. Now I have been accused of teasing him too much by people that don't know us very well, which I can stop at any time. (and will now do so again) And this will last until he intentionally provokes me again, which will come fairly soon as he gets all bored when it gets all quiet around here, too. And this time, in respect for your tender feelings, I will give him 3 provokes in a row (which I am sure he will put to good use, believe me). Would you like all the rowdy actual factual crew to give him 3 misses too? Justin, Rowdy, Boofer, Verslagen, Charon -- everybody will leave Bill alone until he gets up past his third strike, then he is fair game to get teased for what he actually says again. Since Bill never provokes anything, this should last forever, right? What do you say guys, give Bill 3 strikes? (but do keep count for him so Bill will know exactly where he is) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/01/10 at 19:33:45 Why is everybody always picking on me. :'( |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/01/10 at 19:34:09 I used to get upset at Bill before I figured out that he is just a natural born agitator, and that he can take it just as good as he can dish it. Bill can handle it ! :) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/01/10 at 19:42:06 2F2421217B7A4D0 wrote:
See what I mean,....if we didn't know better, we could think this was a serious question. :( |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/01/10 at 20:42:07 Routy, either count it as strike #1 if he is a pokin' again, or if not, then you have to treat it as serious, then it is a serious question which you have to answer without teasing him. Why is everybody always picking on me. :'( Why do you pick on poor ol' Bill? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by verslagen1 on 11/01/10 at 20:46:04 Bill volunteers |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/01/10 at 21:55:01 Because this is a declared oil window war and Bill is participating in it. Just like he participates in every oil war, because he loves it. Because he spouts off his outrageous one-liner statements, because he agitates and tosses endless nonsensical verbal one liner grenades during all of these endless oil brand and oil window wars. mmmmmm ...... that reminds me of an important part of oil war etiquette. Drums ..... are you to be considered a participant now? Actually, calling for polite behavior during a oil window war is sorta humorous, especially if you are incidentally declaring yourself as a participant in doing so. Drums, have you been issued your Kevlar underwear yet? Which side are you declaring for, Actual Factual or Nonsensical? Choose your side, then you go see their quartermaster and draw your uniform, kit and weapons. ;D since you are asking for politeness during an oil window war and taking up for Bill, one would suspect you are leaning towards the Nonsense side, or else you are a flower bearing peacenik who has accidentally wandered into a crossfire zone over a mine field. ========================================== And Lastly, do all you "vertical" guys realize how ridiculous you look doing a roadrunner on your head while you are checking your oil level and trying to balance that bike at the same time? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/02/10 at 05:13:42 Quote: Why do you pick on poor ol' Bill? -------------------------------------------- I don't ! Bill, W/o getting a strike, tell'm I don't :-/ |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/02/10 at 05:21:46 Quote: And Lastly, do all you "vertical" guys realize how ridiculous you look doing a roadrunner on your head while you are checking your oil level and trying to balance that bike at the same time? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- LOL !!! I remember when I did vertical, (that was before I found myself horizontal) I would catch myself looking around to see if anybody was watching ::) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/02/10 at 09:09:01 Good point. Likely if we asked how many Savages that have been dropped doing the Road Runner exercise we'd get a "Huh ----- I dunno" from those who should be answering "Yeah, I dropped mine once." Drums has effectively silenced Bill, since Bill only speaks in humorous one liners and it is difficult for him to phrase those so they could also be read as serious material. Serious and Bill don't have much acquaintance, so they are feeling out their new relationship as they go ..... Besides, he's all wounded now .... we done been pickin' on him again. ;D I think he'll recover shortly though, as he still has 2 free shots left. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/02/10 at 09:48:22 You can vote all you like, for any or all of the above poll items We are really looking for the few folks honest enough to admit they almost lost it while "doing the Road Runner" (craning their head sideways while bent over at the waist while balancing a motorcycle on its nebulous "true vertical point"). My glasses always slipped just about the time I finally got it right ..... |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/02/10 at 13:43:18 I checked my oil in the spring,I will check it spring of 2011,I really don't know why I check it,Its always at the top line. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/02/10 at 15:32:02 That's nice. Bill. Good to know you got a regular oil window checking schedule that you follow religiously. I generally change my oil and filter over the Christmas New Years vacation week every year for lack of something better to do. I know the synthetics can last longer, but I get bored and am looking for something bikish to do. Plus my oil does get dirty ..... (I put too many miles on it). |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/02/10 at 15:41:34 OF why does your oil get dirty,What causes the dirt in your engine? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by mscepu101 on 11/02/10 at 15:54:14 Why does oil get dirty?!? You must be "baiting" someone. ;)) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/02/10 at 17:27:48 Ok, Mscepu101 counts #2 on Bill, but since he jumped onto the question he's gotta take a poke at answering it. Why does oil get dirty? Easier yet, get Bill to tell you why his oil doesn't get dirty .... "He has zero blow by, zero combustion by products, etc all because his red Klotz racing oil has Super Techniplate Technology." Bill, my oil gets dark because I run the immortal snot out of my bike for thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of miles, and any real-world oil does that over a year's time when you use it hard. ;D ;D ;D Bill, are you intentionally provoking Newbies now? Got Drums defending your honor and Mscepu101 counting you down to zero. Good job, get them newbies all involved. ======================= Poll is looking interesting too -- got one honest person reporting anyway. And yes Rosemary, you have to vote to get to see the results. We all did the Suzuki Method back when we were newbies, so don't say you don't have any applicable comments. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by mscepu101 on 11/02/10 at 17:52:55 Ok. I'll bite. I'm just spit balling... but most oil in a normally aspirated engine will quickly turn black due to carbon, mechanical wear particles, gases and the already established left over oil that never really gets drained out of the engine. Am I close? ::) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/02/10 at 17:53:59 Well, Bill -- is that enough answer? if not then go here -- you should remember this because you graced it with your little one liners back when it was written. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1197231468/21 |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/02/10 at 18:49:18 You don't get carbon in your oil if you have a good ring to cylinder wall seal,You don't get metal particles if you have no wear,I have a magnetic drain plug but its clean no metal.You can't buy cheap oil and expect the same results.K |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/02/10 at 19:08:15 K Like Zorro had his "Z" .... .... Superman had his "S" .... ;) The Klotzman has his "K" Bill, you do realize that although I won't fire back at you until you rack up one more provoke, that Verslagen has actually used more Klotz in a Savage engine than you have and he is not limited in any way that keeps him from stating facts about his Klotz experiences. ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by drums1 on 11/02/10 at 21:23:09 OF, I bear no flowers. I am not a newbie. I don't put on thousands and thousands and thousands of miles every month, but I am not a newbie. In fact, after nearly 3 years on the bike, I rather resent being refered to as one. I have never come close to dumping the bike while checking the oil. ( It's called "balance" ) I check mine while on 1 knee, holding the bike vertical by the seat. ( No beer in the other hand ) Does that look silly? I dunno. No one has ever told me it does. I am not necessarily on Bills side. It just seems that you go WAY overboard making a simple point. Am I a participant? I dunno. Am I? The kevlar boxers are intact. [smiley=vrolijk_26.gif] [smiley=shocked.gif] [smiley=vrolijk_26.gif] |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/02/10 at 23:22:56 No flowers? No BEER? At least you get down on one knee and hug your bike while checking her oil, that's something to help keep her happy. ;D grin, it's a joke son Ah, OK -- here comes my feeble attempt to get serious at 2:15 in the morning (Wednesday AM). Best I can do, anyway. Yes -- you certainly can do the Suzuki Method, we have all done it and we all know how. And according to the poll, very few bikes have tried to get away from us while doing it. And your method of going down on one knee makes more sense than doing the Roadrunner, as lots of folks have a hard time SEEING the window level much less easily judging it on the first try doing the Roadrunner method. So, if the only thing that your method means is getting a knee dusty if you are off on a trip, that is not a unrecoverable price to pay for a easier way to get the job done. Still easier yet is to be able to approach the bike from several feet away standing upright and being able to judge the oil level with a single glance downwards as you walk up to it from the right hand side of the bike -- not even having to touch it or move it or hug it or kneel on one knee or do anything to it other than glance down. One method is certainly easier than the other method ..... There must be something that the other method has that makes it worthwhile. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/03/10 at 04:02:31 5271797B787171786F1D0 wrote:
I agree that verly has used more oil than I have,I've never had a motorcycle that burned oil.But then again I don't use cheap oil |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/03/10 at 05:02:21 Quote: There must be something that the other method has that makes it worthwhile. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ There must ? What ? :o |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by verslagen1 on 11/03/10 at 09:07:47 694A4240434A4A4354260 wrote:
Roadrunner? Does this bird have some oddball warm up routine? Lay on ground stretching leg muscles (or holding handlebars) ? Or do you mean Osterich? Whose well known flat footed, tail to the stars, head to the ground could be confused with checking their oil level? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/03/10 at 09:36:18 Routy, that ball is in Drums court now, so we'll wait on him to answer it. If somebody else wants to take a poke at it, they surely may -- this here is an equal opportunity oil window war. Why do you do the Suzuki Method of Oil Window Checking? Somebody will come up with some compelling reason they still do the Road Runner (or the One Knee Proposal as the case may be) .... if they can come up with anything good enough to type, anyway. Bill however wants to use up the last of his 3 free passes rehashing the last 5-6 oil wars, which is mildly provoking all by itself. =============== Verslagen, since you are here now please educate Bill about his favorite oil since you have put more of it into a Savage than he has. Yup, if he has an '06 and if the rest of his "claimed mileage and oil change data" runs true then he is still on his original crankcase load of Klotz. ;D Doing the Road Runner -- in the cartoon the wily bird would always do a certain head and neck motion, inverting them so his head was down by his feet, peer at the poor stupid busted up coyote upside down and very rapidly stick his tongue out at him making a tucka-tucka-tucka sound then hitting him with a cheery "Beep Beep" before zipping off again. But you are right, real ostriches do it too --- except they are sticking their head down in the sand and are ignoring reality. Hey, that "head in the sand" thing works in this case too if you think about it a bit. To ignore the fact that the Suzuki Method makes no sense, doesn't work as easy or as well as the sidestand method does, doesn't allow you to put the 2.5 quart recommended amount of oil into the bike and it actually puts you a lot closer to engine death due to low/no oil when you are on a road trip, why "head in the sand" does seem to apply here, doesn't it? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Serowbot on 11/03/10 at 11:22:17 :-X... http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/serowbot/funnycycle011.jpg?t=1288808416 |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by verslagen1 on 11/03/10 at 11:26:10 Hon, that's not the right way... yes like the roadrunner. :P |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/03/10 at 11:26:41 http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/serowbot/funnycycle011.jpg?t=1288808416 Unfair, I don't wear 3" heels and my body simply won't DO that any more !!! ..... it is compelling though Verslagen, her contacts would fall out (among other things ..... ) :) she's just very nearsighted And you will note that the motorcycle is on its sidestand, right ??? ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by drums1 on 11/03/10 at 15:28:55 Ok, I'm starting to lean in one direction, same as the bike on it's side stand. Clarify for me, when on the side stand, where should the oil level be at in the sight glass? Now, being nearsighted and 1/2 blind even with my glasses on, I'm still gonna have to bend down and look to get a good view. Maybe I should try the gigantic mirror method. ( With a flashlight, of course ) Maybe by doing this, I can get a few more years out of my knee's, having taken all that pounding out of the picture. [smiley=shocked.gif] Oh, I tried to put on a couple thousand miles today, but I could only manage 85 until my fingers went numb from the cold. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/03/10 at 16:41:34 If you see any oil at all, it wound be enough, if compared to Suzie's method of hecking oil. For me, I keep the level tween the marks while on the side stand. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/03/10 at 17:13:08 If you have longer shocks or bigger rear tire,Your bike leans over a lot more and your oil will show higher. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/03/10 at 18:34:16 Drums, the oil should be showing, that is the only real reqirement. I let it peep over the bottom big enough to see it easily -- that's enough. Some run it higher (Ed L runs it amost a quart higher) ---- the whole point is that when you crank the bike the window should go empty, the oil should drop BELOW THE WINDOW. This means you are at least an inch and more below the shelf and well away from any trouble. Bill, I am pleasantly surprised at your good question that has a worthy point inside it -- if you have long shocks or other frame type mods then you simply need to make sure your oil goes below the window when you crank the bike and idle it with the easy to see oil window point that you pick in the window for the modded system you are using. Since ED L can move out a quart, I think there probably is enough reserve "lowering" in the system to keep all of us safe. If you window is empty when you idle the bike in the vertical position -- you are good to go with the set point you picked. ;D ;D ;D I guess this is the only time you would ever need to hold the bike vertical, when you are running at idle to verifiying a set point on a non-standard bike really goes "empty window" for you. I suspect most shock mods and hardtail mods and springer mods can still use this method jest fine, but they will have to verify as shown above. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by verslagen1 on 11/03/10 at 19:24:06 http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/serowbot/funnycycle011.jpg?t=1288808416 where's her helmet? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/03/10 at 19:24:23 Yea, I knew I couldn't the only one to drop the bike while checking the oil the vertical way ! |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/04/10 at 04:59:34 Looking at the poll, something don't seem right. Did everyone know that you could vote more than one thing in the menu ? In my case, I voted 3 things,... 1- trouble maintaining balance 2- trouble seeing window 3- oops, lost control.....bike fell over I just don't see how most people could have trouble w/ 1 of them, and not have a problem w/ another. PS on edit...... I just realized that the total maybe represents the total of checks, and not the total of people. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/04/10 at 18:35:50 Polls on this list require you to remath the numbers to have them make any sense. This poll recorded relative frequency/importance of the list of issues. Everyone had to respond to see the poll (everyone has done the Suzuki Method so everyone had some input to give) The stated purpose for me was to see how many honest people there were who would admit to (oops) dropping the bike. The answer was 3. Heck, if the question had been "Almost dropped the bike" I would have had to respond yes too, I didn't drop it but it was a headed that way .... The number of strain injuries corresponds to the number of (oops) you are in an awkward position and are likely to strain something as you fight not to drop the bike. Once again, the answer was 3 ========== So, you got nobody proposing any real reason not to check your oil with the bike on the side stand. As far as this war goes, looks like it is about petered out due to lack of reasonable reasons to keep on doing what you done been doing. ============================== Good news, you can change what you do And likely when you start using some oil regularly you will change, as you got a very slight safety reserve of oil using the Suzuki Method and you will eventually go too low once or twice due to a trip or a little bit of slackness, then you will remember the sidestand method and the greater safety reserve it supplies. And once you try it you will say "Jeeze, all those times I bent over and struggled with the bike -- and I didn't even have to !!" ;) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/04/10 at 22:04:50 Ive got it down so checking the oil is really pretty danged easy.. However, Pretty Danged Easy is sttill more hassle than just walking up & looking at it, so, Im gonna change the way I do it. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by ls650v on 11/05/10 at 02:32:12 Seems like another lopsided poll to me. The only choices allowed are for a problem. There is no choice like "No problem whatsoever". How can I vote? I guess I have just been lucky in the last 10 years of ownership. Oldfeller, you should change your handle to "Spindoctor". You would make a great politician. :) When my bike starts buring more oil than 4 oz every 500 miles then I will try the overfill method. Until that time I guess I will just follow the Suzuki instructions and continue doing things the hard way. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/05/10 at 03:54:01 Ls650v, at least you know that there is another easier method that has a "no risk of low oil" benefit to give to you when you decide you want it. That is the reason we do these little oil war exercises (other than pure boredom of course). At 21,000 + miles, aren't you using some oil now anyway (topping up between oil changes)? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/05/10 at 04:33:33 Quote: There is no choice like "No problem whatsoever". ---------------------------------------------------------------- Define the word "problem" Define the word "inconvenience" It doesn't necessarily have to be a problem. But I don't know how anyone could have honestly voted "no problem whatsoever",.......except Bill......(sorry, the devil made me do it !) It wasn't a problem for me before I dropped my bike. But it was a big inconvenience. After I dropped it, then there was a big problem,....w/ a saftey factor built in. Then came the 2x4 trick which was no problem, and only a little inconvenient,.......except when there was no 2x4 around, then it was a problem. But now using the "overfill method" we got rid of the problem, if there was one, and the "inconvenience".....which there was a big one, and the saftey factor,....which there was one. I just wish I had invented it, but I have this feeling that this method has been used by (maybe smarter) others long before us. Yep, its "boredom", thats what it is ! :-/ |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/05/10 at 04:45:36 The real issue here is men and their habits. Getting someone to acknowledge that something might be better is one thing. Men always tell their wives that they hear them, right? ::) "Yes, Honey -- you're right, dear". jest tell 'um anything to get them to shut up about it Actually overcoming their old habits for them to actually change what they do is something else again. That generally requires reality to give them a swift kick in the pants. :( My engine is WHAT !!?? because the durn oil got too low??? :-[ awshit |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/05/10 at 06:17:46 I decided to sell my S40 its just to dang hard to check the oil level. ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/05/10 at 06:27:34 Give us all the specs on the bike, Bill so we can decide if we want to buy it. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5_8f0ndKd4&feature=channel[/media] I smell provoke #3 here, let's see if he's just funnin' us again ;) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/05/10 at 08:19:49 Bill, You forgot you were one of those that didn't have any problem w/ it,..... remember,....the foxy lady holding it vertical while you were horizontal ?? Oh wow, what did I say ?? :o Sorry Bill ! 787376762C2D1A0 wrote:
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/05/10 at 08:39:16 Thats right maybe I will keep it thats a good reason. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/05/10 at 13:40:33 Get what Bill? Get horizontal with a foxy lady ?? Suuuurrrre there, 'ol buddy -- what would you do with her once you got her there? =========================== Back to your bike, what year is it, how many miles do you have on it and what does its maintenance record look like? ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Boofer on 11/05/10 at 17:45:14 No matter how you check your oil, what the brand is, where you leave it in the sight glass, yadda, yadda, yadda, THE POINT IS---it seems like everybody here is checking their oil. That's a good thing! Now if you really want to get down on me, ask me when was the last time I checked the air in my tires. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Charon on 11/05/10 at 19:38:13 What? You didn't know you are supposed to change the air in the tires every time you change the oil? Unless you use dry nitrogen instead of air, in which case it is only every other time. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by verslagen1 on 11/05/10 at 20:05:26 Don't use helium, that stuff will leak thru inconel. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/05/10 at 22:48:48 Use CO2, it is nice and heavy and stays where you put it. Noble gases ain't all that noble in rubber, slippery & very mobile instead. Or you could use air, compressed, ordinary (but it is 70+ percent nitrogen and has a lot of oxygen in it too -- bad for rubber) Bill, what do you like to breathe? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/06/10 at 00:29:49 I use pre-compressed air usually compressed it up to about 5 times of what air pressure I want to use. when I got new tires for my car they wanted $8 a tire more for the nitrogen stuff so I told them no just pre-compressed air would do me. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/06/10 at 03:04:47 I guess that explains the hissing sound coming out your ears, 5x normal pressure, huh? How about your bike, you still trying to sell it? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/06/10 at 05:32:55 Despite all the things that Bill doesn't like about his s-40, he ain't sell'n it,.....because there ain't nothin any better for us ole guys ! Getting back to the topic at hand,........ My bike fell on the left side when I let it back down after checking the oil, and it rolled off the stand. But how many times would it rather fall on its right side while holding it w/ 1 hand, and nearly standing on your head trying to see the site glass ? If that would have happened to me, I'd still be there,.... pinned to the cold hard concrete by 400 lbs of cold hard steel ! :o I can't believe Suzy has not got sued over this, and that they still use the same oil checking instructions yet today ? Un-be veeve-able ! |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/06/10 at 06:13:30 I can't believe they haven't been sued for all the dead Savage engines due to the low oil reserve amount that comes along with their stupid directions .... Wonder which model they copied the directions from? The 1400 cc V twin? One of the in-line 4s? What else were they making about that time (in the mid 80's)? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/06/10 at 06:52:18 Suzuki GR 650 had the window,I think the GN 400 had it ,My Suzuki 1500 has it. So I've been using it for 30 years. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/06/10 at 06:54:45 Did they all have the same exact verbage in the owner's manual? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Charon on 11/06/10 at 07:13:09 Apparently the oil check window is pretty common. My Yamaha 250 Star (nee 250 Virago), my Suzuki S40 (nee Savage and first produced about 1985), and my Kawasaki 250 Ninja all have them, and all are designs many years old. A quick Google check says a lot of Hondas have them, too. And as far as I can tell, the procedure for all of them is the same. Start the engine and let it run for a couple of minutes; shut it off and let the oil drain back down for a couple of minutes; hold the bike level and behold the oil level in the window. I think one would have a mighty tough time suing a manufacturer for the "low reserve amount" of oil in the engine. All they would say is "When did you last check it?" |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/06/10 at 07:13:38 Yes, I would like to know the exact wording of it all. The site glass is fine, its the vertical thing that sucks ! How many of these other bikes have a center stand ? That is a horse of a whole nother color ! But to think that no one has gotten hurt using this "vertical BS" w/o a center stand?? I think not !! |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/06/10 at 07:22:49 Poll says 3 people got at least a neck/back strain out of it, so no, I don't think so either. Whole thing drives back to the root question -- which is the Suzuki/Clymers goof this time -- the 2.5 quarts of oil or the checking method? one of them is a screw up -- and it needs to be added to the Clymer's screw up thread in Tech Section. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Charon on 11/06/10 at 07:23:53 Since my Yamaha manual was convenient to hand: "1. Place the vehicle on a level surface and hold it in an upright position. A slight tilt to the side can result in a false reading. "2. Start the engine, warm it up for several minutes, and then turn it off. "3. Wait a few minutes, and then check the oil level through the check window located at the bottom-right side of the crankcase." By the way, the Yamaha does not have a center stand. My '07 250 Ninja does, but its successors '08 and later do not. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/06/10 at 10:39:05 Yamaha is even more insane than Suzuki -- warm it indeed. They could say "only check it cold' or "only check it hot" but oh no, it's gotta be "warm". Then you gotta wait a few minutes (say 10-15) for it to dribble back down from everywhere ....... ;D Visions of testing baby bottles on the inside of my arm for proper "warm". |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/06/10 at 10:44:56 I walk out, look at it, call it good or add accordingly & go. I never warm it up to check the oil,. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/06/10 at 11:35:23 If any of you guys live near a farm,just take it there and put it in a cow stall like they use for milking cows.then get down like your were going to milk a cow,but check the oil instead. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/06/10 at 14:35:34 Bill, is that a recommendation derived from your personal experience? .... or are you jest billshutting us again? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/06/10 at 15:25:55 Thats for you guys that have a problem with checking your oil. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/06/10 at 16:10:44 So, Bill sez Since you Suzuki Method guys are having a hard time holding your bike vertical, put it in a cow capture milking cage to hold it upright. ================================ The side stand guys can stay out on the pavement and not get their shoes or their knees dirty -- just takes them an easy glance from standing upright position as they walk up to the bike from the right side. ================================ Suzuki Method guys, it's getting kinda bad when even Bill starts to tease you some for how and what you are doing ..... ...... jest imagine the razz type questions the next person who munches their motor for low oil is gonna get. ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Charon on 11/07/10 at 05:35:21 Just from curiosity, and to stir things again, which manual is it that says anything about 2.5 quarts of oil? I just dug out the Owners Manual for the LS650, dated May, 2006. Under SPECIFICATIONS, CAPACITIES, it says "Engine oil, without filter change, 1800 ml (1.9 US quart). With filter change 2000 ml (2.1 US quart)." In Chapter 7, INSPECTION AND MAINTENANCE, Page 7-15: "Engine Oil Level Check. Follow the procedure below to inspect the engine oil level. "1. Start the engine and alllow it to idle for a few minutes. "2. Stop the engine and wait for three minutes. "3. Hold the motorcycle vertically and inspect the engine oil level through the engine oil level inspection window. The engine oil should be between "L" (low) and "F" (full) lines." There is a bold print CAUTION note saying: "The engine oil level must be between the "L" (low) line and "F" (full) line, or engine damage may occur. Check the oil level, through the inspection window, with the motorcycle held vertically on level ground before each use of the motorcycle." Further on, Page 7-18, toward the end of the oil changing instructions, it gives the oil quantities again as 2000 ml (2.1 US quart) with filter change, and 1800 ml (1.9 US quart) without. I am not going to argue with those of you who overfill and do not have any damage, nor those who overfill to have a little "extra reserve oil" for high-use engines. I do know, from my brother's experience, there is a level of overfilling which results in the engine spitting oil into the airbox, then inhaling gulps of that oil and emulating a mosquito fogger. His was filled beyond the top of the window with the bike on the stand, but I have no idea how much oil he put in it. I will have to say I am amazed that, in a 10-page thread, I am the first to actually quote the Owner's Manual instead of guessing what it says. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/07/10 at 06:43:12 Post #1 in the entire thread Miscepu101 says: "I am a newbie savage owner. I purchased a 1999 savage and changed the oil as specified in the manual. I drained the oil changed the filter and added 2.5 qts of suzuki 10w40." Post #15 in the entire thread "Holy smokes! Alot of good action on a Sunday morning! I called my local Suzuki dealer and described to him my plight. He stated that the windows on this enging design were not placed very well. He said that anywhere between the two marks to the top of the window is OK. Just don't put in 3 qts (US). All that said...this engine design has been around nearly 30 years and since Suzuki has never formally addressed the issue I am feeling a little better that some extra oil will not kill the enging." Charon, are you saying our new member done screwed the pooch? Repeatedly, no less? As far as correcting him, both Bill and Verslagen corrected him in post #2 and #3 about overfilling to the Suzuki Method, so he was corrected, but he continued in his 2.5 quart heresy beliefs that apparently he got from a '99 owner's manual. In post #7, GaryT, another newbie brought up the sidestand method and told Miscepu101 to go read about it. In post #8, Routy started giving him information about sidestand/overfill method -- the alternate checking standard that matches his oil amount. I, in turn did not post until post #9 -- sensing that some fun was in the works but not contributing anything but some humorous nonsense noises about mmmm mmmm good, satisfying etc. In post #10, Miscepu101 then asks the deadly question which fired off this oil window war (apparently after reading his homework and sensing there was a disconnect between his '99 manual and reality -- no matter which reality you are talking about). He then called his dealership to get clarification ..... as he posted in post #15. First formal indication of a potential oil window war was done in #13 Framing of the oil window war declaration was done in post #17 ========================== And now, after 10+ pages of mud & blood trench warfare you are gonna try to tell us our newbie done screwed up TWICE, even after reading his '99 manual and actively consulting with his dealership ???? ;D ;D ;D ....... air yew a read'n frum a 1999 owner's manual ??? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/07/10 at 07:04:44 Now OF tell me how you read the battery window. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by drums1 on 11/07/10 at 07:10:36 It's getting hard to understand which way, and how much, is the correct/safe way, and correct/safe amount. If 2.1 qts., with a filter change, at vertical, thus putting the level between the 2 marks, is the correct way, then wouldn't 2.5 qts., with a filter change, on sidestand, thus putting the level between the 2 marks, be too much? OF ? [smiley=cry.gif] [smiley=embarassed.gif] [smiley=shocked.gif] [smiley=angry.gif] [smiley=undecided.gif] [smiley=rolleyes.gif] ;D :o :-? :-[ |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/07/10 at 07:16:28 OK, I call for the Kangaroo Kourt to come into session. I accuse the Suzuki Method of being both illogical, troublesome and known to be inconsistent between owner's manuals as verified by Mispecu101 and Charon independently and as verified by a Suzuki Dealership's "qualified person" AND calling for checking the oil while it is still actively drooling down from the head, oil filter cavity, the oil galleries and the cam bath. Quite illogical, sez Mr. Spock. We have 25 list members that verify the Side Stand "check it cold" Method works with no ill effects found after months of looking and it is consistent and is much much easier to do. It is known and verified to give additional reserve oil capacity compared to the Suzuki Method (both versions of it that we have been told about, anyway). We ask the Kangaroo Kourt to rule -- which is in error, the 2.5 quarts (or Charon's 2.1 quarts or the dealerships stated "no more than 3 quarts") of oil capacity or the blasted stupid illogical "vertical balancing" checking while the oil is still moving Suzuki method which has resulted in a list reported 68 difficulties of which 3 were dropped bikes and 3 were personal injuries. We also ask the Kourt to clarify how we will train up all future newbies in the correct way for them to go .... as now they are sorely confused (and so are we). ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/07/10 at 07:20:03 This thread is becoming "too much". BUT, in response to your question, Drums, the oil level that is advertised as "correct" is not etched in stone. You gotta keep enough oil in it to keep it cool & slick in all the spinning & pushing places, but not so much that it gets in the way of little things, like crankshafts & stuff. Theres a lot of room for error on the thing. Its not as if the oil has to be measured & metered like one component in a chemistry lab experiment. There's a lot of room between the amount that will cause damage from being overfilled & the amount that will do damage from having too little. The way I want mine filled is with the most oil it can have in it w/o causing a problem. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/07/10 at 07:26:44 Justin, as friend of the court, we take it you are saying there is room for interpretation on the amount of oil. Yes, this is in line with what all the experts are saying. However, we are past the stage of additional testimony. As a Senior Member of the Kangaroo Kourt, how do you rule on the two charges? 1) Amount of oil wrong vs the vertical check method being wrong 2) How we shall train up the newbies as "correct method" |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/07/10 at 07:40:24 26393F3825221323132B39357E4C0 wrote:
JOG how much oil did you have in yours when you created a problem? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/07/10 at 07:44:27 Bill, you are out of order (yes, that works -- in several different ways) ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Charon on 11/07/10 at 07:51:02 As far as I know, it is standard procedure for oil to be checked with the machine in which the engine is mounted pretty much level both side-to-side and fore-and-aft. Motorcycles fit into the same category, and they usually call for checking oil with the machine level. In the case of the LS650, the oil quantity is actually cast into the metal of the engine, near the window, thus obviating the need to check a manual. It is also standard procedure to fill the oil to the "FULL" mark (or to between "ADD" and "FULL"), whatever the manual says about quantity. That allows for, say, an incomplete drain at oil change. Some car engines, for example, had an oil pan with two drain plugs, and if they were not both removed the oil didn't all drain out. Personally, I think Suzuki's oil check method is correct in that they want the engine (motorcycle) level. I am not going to argue about one or another manual being incorrect, unless I see the manual. I quoted the manual I have, and gave its date. Anyone with a differently-dated manual is welcome to post what it says. As far as training newbies, I would tell them to fill the engine until the oil comes to the "L" mark in the window with the bike level. Then follow Suzuki's procedure of starting the engine for a minute or two, shutting it off and rechecking. Top off if needed. By the way, I voted "Had to do it again to be sure." But I have had to wipe and recheck many an automotive dipstick, too, either because clean oil was hard to see or because oil trapped in the dipstick tube messed up the readings. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by drums1 on 11/07/10 at 08:14:28 One quick question and I'm done. How many posts and years of riding does it take until you are no longer considered a "newbie"??????????? Apparently, 10,000 miles and 3 1/2 years isn't enough to satisfy some. :-/ |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by drums1 on 11/07/10 at 08:19:45 Oh hey, Bill, I didn't realize how close you were to me--I'm in Racine. I wonder how many times I've ridden past your house and not known it. Maybe we should get together some sunny day and compare notes.. [smiley=vrolijk_26.gif] [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif] [smiley=shocked.gif] [smiley=thumbsup.gif] |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/07/10 at 08:34:07 Yes we will have to ride some time, this year is pretty well shot,I really don't ride below 60 .I think your about 40 miles away from Genoa city. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/07/10 at 08:38:01 Ok Drums, you are not a newbie. Maybe "innocent bystander what wandered into the mine field and then protested that the machine gun fire was being impolite" is closer to it. Yes, Bill would be a interesting person to meet, we keep inviting him down to NC to go riding in the pretty mountains, he says he'll come then he doesn't ever show up ..... says he got lost. Mebbe you can have better luck. Don't forget the pictures of Bill and his bike. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/07/10 at 08:46:14 Theres a picture of my bike in scavenger hunt by a train locomotive and a picture of me and may family in the pictures of people deal,enjoy ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/07/10 at 08:52:10 <"As far as training newbies, I would tell them to fill the engine until the oil comes to the "L" mark in the window with the bike level. Then follow Suzuki's procedure of starting the engine for a minute or two, shutting it off and rechecking. Top off if needed."> Ok, Charon, that's the printed Suzuki Method that is saying crank the bike up, fill up the oil gallery, the filter cavity and all the hollow shafts and the bath, warm it up some, etc. then stop the engine, wait a few minutes and check the oil level. I can see "check it cold", but I really can't see telling people to check the level when the oil is known to be moving from up to down ---- does this not make anybody else go all "shiver-shudder" in amazement? If you topped it off, an hour later you would see the bike as overfilled when the rest of the oil upstairs rejoined the sump. Plus, the oil changes volume with temperature according to the formula 0.0004 / degree F, so for a 120 degree F delta-T you get a 4.8% change in volume. Baliff, add one more charge against the Suzuki Method, please. Checking Against a Moving Target. ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Charon on 11/07/10 at 09:29:16 You are going to have to add Yamaha and Kawasaki, too, since they both call for the same method. I can't say about Honda, since I don't have one of their manuals. But I expect them to be the same. So far, my bikes use little enough oil that I don't even bother to keep track of consumption. I try to remember to check the oil before first start, by just pulling the bike level and seeing if the oil is somewhere near the middle of the window. I don't even carry any oil with me, figuring that if I do happen to need some almost every gas station/C-store will have something usable. Each of us is free to use whatever method we choose, with or without any sort of justification for it. Perhaps the best method of all is the Briggs & Stratton method: Remove the fill plug, fill until the oil runs back out, and replace the plug. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/07/10 at 09:39:53 Huh? A Unified Stupid Japanese Oil Checking Method? Copied down endlessly from the age of broken English Translation Owner's Manuals back in the '60's no doubt ..... JASO method = Jack Ass Stupid Official method :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P Might I suggest a gentle remedy? Use the Savage.Com suggested IMPROVED method instead. Walk up to your bike from the right side as it sits cold in your garage and see if you have any oil peeking up over the edge of the oil window? If not, make it so. ================ Easy Consistent Enough Oil Reserve to Cause You to have "Peace of Mind" No logical inconsistencies, odd warm ups, balancing acts or "moving targets" :D :D :D :D :D :D Now, all you need to do is try it and see that it works for you too. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Serowbot on 11/07/10 at 09:51:55 Hardly ever check my oil... It never uses any... replace every 2k... :-?... Official qualifications for newbie status... ... less than 10k riding miles ... less than 1 year on a Savage ... less than 100 posts on SS.com ... can't find the oil drain plug... Drums is not a newbie.... but not yet an oldtimer... ... to qualify as an oldtimer... ... make at least 500 ridiculously inane posts, spouting unverifiable facts or rules, as if they're gospel... ...such as this one... :-?... ... or resist,.. and retain your dignity... ... but where's the fun in that?... ;)... |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/07/10 at 10:00:15 spouting unverifiable facts or rules, as if they're gospel.. HEY! Whutchew MEAN "As IF"?? ( Dignity sacrificed long ago) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/07/10 at 10:16:32 Are you picking on Bill again? Fer shame! Fer shame! Actually, there is a spectrum or range here, with Verslagen and Charon on one end of the spectrum and Bill on the other. I am making the transit between the two ..... Bill, I'm coming to you buddy. When my oil finally all dribbles down to my sump, we'll be sittin' all together ..... ;) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by verslagen1 on 11/07/10 at 10:29:03 2D3B2C31293C312A5E0 wrote:
Does any one qualification count? Cause regardless of the miles, time or posts... if you can't find the drain plug and know which way to unscrew it, you are pretty much useless. BTW... how many drain plugs are there? ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/07/10 at 10:30:45 I can think of 3, but someone gonna hafta hold the bike up on its side & shake it a little for 2 of them. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/07/10 at 10:34:50 Now you is pokin' fun at the sacred job of "newbie". No wonder Drums doesn't want the job any more !!! |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by verslagen1 on 11/07/10 at 10:45:49 706F696E73744575457D6F63281A0 wrote:
I got 5, but still thinking about it. And battery don't count, as you don't replace the fluid, but in some cases you replenish it. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/07/10 at 12:00:28 Bill, I found the video of you, your bike and the train, at least I think it is you. You had your mouth hanging open with the durnest look on your face as you went on by wearing that green helmet of yours ..... [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjSBtMsMskY[/media] |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by drums1 on 11/07/10 at 12:14:15 Yes indeed, I know where the drainplug is. Now, by drainplugs, do you mean anything that's removable, and allows either oil or gasoline to drain? I guess I need to do some more major overhaulin' to find the 5 Verslagen has... |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/07/10 at 12:16:58 Thats me alright OF thats the closes I ever come to running over a train. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/07/10 at 12:21:07 It was hard to see your right hand, but didn't I think that I saw you rear back and crank the throttle WIDE OPEN when you were only in second gear !!?? Yew evil wicker you !!! ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by verslagen1 on 11/07/10 at 12:36:31 4E585F47591B2A0 wrote:
I'm going with anything that can be removed to drain a fluid, but only one per volume. Such as oil has a drain plug, but you could remove numerous bolts and or covers to drain it, tipping as noted before. And you could pull the carb bowl drain to drain the bowl and tank, it'd just take forever with that little cup that fits under there. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/07/10 at 15:12:52 Quoted: to qualify for oldtimer,..... ... make at least 500 ridiculously inane posts, spouting unverifiable facts or rules, as if they're gospel... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- One thing for certain, no shortage of qualifiers here ;D Hey, know how to tell if you got the correct oil drain plug ? When you turn and turn and turn and turn, and you got at least an inch of fine thread showing, thats the one, just keep turning, it'll fall out sooner or later !! I'd bet no one has ever stripped threads on a savage-40 drainplug ! :o |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Serowbot on 11/07/10 at 15:26:40 5E514B504C4A595B535D4A380 wrote:
I know I qualify, at least 5 times over... :-?... |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/07/10 at 15:58:51 Yeah, that's the oil drain bolt, the one you have to turn nearly 50 times when it is so blinkin' hot it burns your fingers even more as you do each turn .... after turn .... after turn :-/ sizzle :-/ |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/07/10 at 16:29:23 I use a piece of string wrapped around it. Then I tug gently on one end & spin it out with the string |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by verslagen1 on 11/07/10 at 17:03:43 2E3137302D2A1B2B1B23313D76440 wrote:
I tried that, came out so quick it fell in the oil. I'm sticking to the slow way. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/07/10 at 17:07:20 Hey, not a bad trick, but now you guys force me to open a new topic,....drain oil hot or cold ? I myself never touch a hot drain plug anymore. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/07/10 at 18:32:33 Hot and tip the bike both ways as far as you can,run engine for 5 seconds and always let drain over night,I've always did it this way. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/07/10 at 22:40:11 Yeah, but how often do you do it? ;) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/08/10 at 05:45:57 4A4144441E1F280 wrote:
You runnin the thing After ya drain it? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/08/10 at 06:07:55 <"Hot and tip the bike both ways as far as you can,run engine for 5 seconds and always let drain over night,I've always did it this way."> He only trusts the red magic for a 5 second run -- not very much faith is being shown here, them red magic pixies will not approve full magical protection unless your faith is pure and large. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/08/10 at 06:12:21 Once you drain it theirs still oil on the motor parts.I do my cars and trucks the same way.If your oil want hold up for 5-10 seconds your must be using cheap oil. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Charon on 11/08/10 at 06:19:04 Remember bill67 thinks the best oil is the one which protects the longest after it has been drained. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/08/10 at 06:30:35 :D Drums, do you understand now why we all give Bill a bit of a razz periodically? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/08/10 at 06:44:52 7B7075752F2E190 wrote:
I dont like the lack of oil pressure protecting the journals when I change oil & start an engine. I sure dont plan on running it w/o oil in it. Whats the point? Whats to be gained? No oil in the pan to feed the pump, not exactly gonna pump oil into places. Just gonna get those last drops out? You think those few drops of oil will wear the engine More than running it with no oil? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/08/10 at 08:29:16 Those last drops are more like a shot glass of oil. CAUTION Not recommended if you use diesel oil. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/08/10 at 08:41:31 Yeah, you spend your 5 seconds cranking empty with no oil pressure just to intentionally empty out all the oil galleries (that's your shot glass) ..... ..... then you spend an additional 10-20 seconds at first post change start up sucking at air with the oil pump gears and then finally pushing some light froth up into your galleries and to the head .... ..... mebbe 30 seconds to a minute until you can actually get some real solid oil up to the cam bearings (the air froth fills the pipeline and must be processed through the cam bearings to get it out of the way). Great idea there Bill, good thing that you only actually ever do it ever 5.68 years! >:( OFFICIALLY NOT RECOMMENDED >:( |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/08/10 at 08:48:25 OF if you oil bicycle wheel bearing do you stop every block to re oil them because the oil is gone. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by drums1 on 11/08/10 at 09:23:37 HeeHee, I'm beginning to, OF. I would never run my engine with no oil just for a shotglassfull. Having been in the auto repair business for 23 years, when we do an oil change, we pull the plug and filter and let it drain down to a slow drip-drip-drip. Plug in, filter on, fill 'er up and go. 9 out of 10 cars that just had the oil changed, that oil is black on the dipstick within a mile. (New cars excluded) It's the nature of the beast. On the bike, I know in my mind, that between 2.2 and 2.5 quarts of oil has been changed. I'm not gonna worry about 1 shotglassfull of old oil mixing with the new stuff. That's just plain rediculous. Wow, 13 pages-who would have thought a simple question about changing oil would lead to that? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/08/10 at 09:30:56 Drums, we are all bored and idle, and we do this all winter long until we can ride again. Did you get my PM about your old starter motor? Bill, my bicycle when I was a kid was a Murray 3-speed "shift in hub" narrow English tire fast type that used stiff axle grease on the front wheel bearings and had a reservoir drum in the center of the rear wheel that you punka punka'd full of 30 weight oil from yer daddys flex hose tipped maintenance oil can. It had felt and rubber seals that kept the oil in the hub where it did its job inside the 3 speed hub transmission. Mine worked fine and I did normal routine maintenance on chains and tires with my buddies every week or so when somebody had a flat tire or a breakdown of some kind. Working together we could flip a bike upside down and have a tire off, torn down, patched and back in motion inside half an hour. While this was going on, everybody flipped his bike and tightened and lubed his chain and checked his brakes and adjusted his shifter lever for clean 1-2-3 shifting. Spokes and wheel truing, yeah we did them too, but not very often. We generally patched all our tires at an uncle's gas station, he had a dip tank, rollers, glue and patches -- patches were 10 cents each and nobody ever replaced a tube, we jest patched them endlessly. Got right good at it too. I remember collecting pop bottles for the 2cent deposit to buy the patch too. We wuz kinda poor, but never really knew it ... everybody was kinda poor back then, so it was normal. We rode our bikes everywhere -- 15-20 miles out and back wasn't all that unusual if there was a reason to go there. We had parts bikes out behind our house that we pillaged for pieces, even made whole bikes up from junk at times. I had a bowie knife, a hatchet, a BB gun and a bicycle -- I was fully equipped. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/08/10 at 10:08:52 687E79617F3D0C0 wrote:
Drum 1 that old is black because there was oil left in the car,Start it up and get rid of the contaminated oil. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Serowbot on 11/08/10 at 10:15:13 You leave the shotglass of old oil in, so it colors the new oil, and makes it easier to see in the sightglass... ;)... Very important... :-?... |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/08/10 at 10:58:03 6A4941434049494057250 wrote:
Thats why we Wick IT! |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by babyhog on 11/08/10 at 11:58:55 7563647C6220110 wrote:
drums, 3-1/2 years a member and less than 200 posts? You don't "talk" with your fingers enough...... ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by drums1 on 11/08/10 at 12:19:59 Yes, OF, see reply. Sorry Babyhog, I usually try to limit my posts to what I know I'm talking about. Unless, of course, I stumble aimlessly into the middle of a good-natured debate. And most of the summer, I'm too busy riding to type. But I'll work on it this winter. Now that you mention it, I do see a lot of 5-star folks around here. How many posts to achieve 4 stars? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/08/10 at 12:31:59 You got 199 maybe its 200,I really don't know. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by drums1 on 11/08/10 at 12:33:49 Well, here's 200.....let's see what happens..... |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by drums1 on 11/08/10 at 12:34:27 Dammit, must be 500...oh well. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/08/10 at 18:02:27 I just got in on the "purposely running an engine w/o oil", and I really did not believe it. There is only one thing to say about it,........... it is now officially OPEN SEASON ON BILL! |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/08/10 at 22:59:04 Hey Bill, I'd be real careful the way things are going ..... She's one serious homicidal bitach and she jest wants to KILL BILL !!! http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/3000/Mr-Bill--3313.jpg [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdjuS17DGlA[/media] ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/09/10 at 06:11:51 I'll just give her a drink of my red wine and she will just slip away. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/09/10 at 09:54:35 She's cold, Bill ..... ..... really really cold ..... ..... colder that you would believe possible ....... ..... You ain't buying her off wid flowers or a glass of wine. You are right though, she does like red and she does like to slip things away ..... your arms, your legs, your pride -- you name it -- she'll slip it right off ya ....... and she is coming for you, you know that, right? and she wants you to know that she wants you to know she's coming for you !! [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kRO-knCPl0&feature=related[/media] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVa5DGZlGPU&feature=related[/media] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IY_aqr_tQo&feature=related[/media] |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/10/10 at 05:49:21 Did I hear Bill say, "nothing to fear but fear itself",....Bill doesn't scare easily ?? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/10/10 at 15:08:22 Dunno, hadn't heard from him for a while ..... ..... mmmmm, ya don't suppose she's already got him? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/10/10 at 20:23:44 Its okay if she kills him. We can take turns cutting & pasting & quoting his old posts. No one will ever know he's gone. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by mscepu101 on 11/12/10 at 05:46:54 This is a great topic! I check my oil frequently using the "get on my right knee, pull the handle bar with my left hand/arm, brace my left hip in to the bike (when cool) and look at the window". I do that because of that little oil weepage at the top right cylinder bolt by the exhaust that I can not tighten. I smell the oil but never really see it accumulate. Can anyone suggest an aftermarket center stand? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/12/10 at 07:29:47 Can anyone suggest an aftermarket center stand? YOu would have about zero ground clearance. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/12/10 at 07:43:26 I built one long time ago, but it didn't hold up to the thinner material it was mounted to. If I was rebuilding a Savage, it would be easy to get the mounting more secure w/ the frame upside down. 5D4244435E5968586850424E05370 wrote:
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/12/10 at 08:06:02 You werent dragging it in corners? Or going over one of those blasted speed bumps? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/12/10 at 15:53:58 Bill, what's that ?? You jest don't see eye to eye wid us on this here oil checking method? ("squish" goes the ocular, mushin' & oozing up between the toes) She's cold, Bill -- we done told ya that .... jest plain mean [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki42ZSIJjaU[/media] |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/12/10 at 19:20:06 3C2325223F3809390931232F64560 wrote:
I don't remember it being that low. But I'm only 180, and I've never rode double either. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/12/10 at 22:17:16 Well, at 180 lbs, & If you enjoy some peg draggin, then, maYbe I was off base. I said that because the Guzzi Nevada, much taller bike, would drag the centerstand & jack the bike off the ground. Pretty scary. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/13/10 at 06:40:36 I think older,...and maybe wiser ?? entered the picture too. I remember 45 yrs ago, draggin my Norton Atlas,....can't believe I ever layed over that far ! |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/15/10 at 11:22:34 Here is the full hot test that has been added to the original Tech oil level poll thingie. It specifies that you need to do the full hot test to your bike using your oil at your own maximum operating temperature so you can understand what 10-12 percent hot oil expansion does to your particular set up. Yeah, do it at least once to make sure you are still fully good with your side stand check oil level (with your shocks, your side stand and garage level, etc, etc, etc). WARNING NOTICE !! Out of the window war and related side wars has come an important hot test to perform on your particular bike after you have picked your side stand oil in the window level. The test is simple, after picking your handlebar alignment and resting condition, put your oil level stone cold where you want it to be for easy visibility. Then ON A LEVEL SURFACE crank your fresh hot from a ride bike up, get it to a good idling rate (at least 1,000 rpm) and get somebody else to hold it straight upright while you shine a flashlight into the oil window with the bike running at idle. Ideally, you would like to see an empty window -- but many do not. If you see more than half a sight glass on this hot run test, then you need to take out some oil !! You know the window empties completely when you crank it cold, cause you have already done this test with the bike stone cold. What has changed is that your oil went from garage cold to engine hot -- oil expands when hot to the formula 0.0004 / degree F, so for a 250-300 degree F delta-T you get like a 10-12.0% change in oil volume. 10-12% is a significant enough change in oil volume for you to do the check again when the engine is full from just running hot. On my bike I get just under half a window held upright when hot idling when I set the oil level to half a window on the sidestand with everything stone cold. I am lucky, what I see stone cold on the side stand is just about what I see on the hot held vertical test. You likely are not that lucky ..... You can't ASSume this works out this way for you, your garage isn't at the same degree of level as mine (mine isn't perfectly level) and my side stand is slightly bent and I use a sidestand adder magnet on the foot of my side stand and my oil expands like RotSyn expands (your oil likely expands differently). You have to check your own situation to find out your hot expansion truth. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you see a full oil window when idling a fully hot engine held bolt upright. This would put you in danger of splashing oil with your crankshaft. You need a half window or more of oil clearance to the crank splash shelf with your worst cast oil expansion due to hot engine temperatures -- a full window of clearance is of course the "optimum desired" amount but many do not get this on the hot test. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by rl153 on 11/15/10 at 13:24:47 Thanks for all the useful info. I'm switching to the sidestand technique.Interesting. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Digger on 11/17/10 at 21:29:25 1C373E2D30315F0 wrote:
Just to add some more data, the official Suzuki LS650 Service Manual states: Oil change: 1.9 quarts Filter change: 2.5 quarts Overhaul Engine: 2.5 quarts |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Digger on 11/17/10 at 21:40:37 092A2220232A2A2334460 wrote:
The oil inspection method is correct, and here's why: I owned a 1977 Yamaha XS750D. Adding the book amount of oil after an oil change caused the level to read too high on the dipstick. I owned a 1981 Honda GL1100. Adding the book amount of oil after an oil change caused the level to read too high in the sight window. I owned a 1981 Honda GL500. Adding the book amount of oil after an oil change caused the level to read too high on the dipstick. I own a 2001 Honda ST1100. Adding the book amount of oil after an oil change caused the level to read too high in the sight window. I own a 2005 Honda GL1800. Adding the book amount of oil after an oil change caused the level to read too high on the dipstick. Pretty consistent. Why on Earth would I believe that my Savage would be any different.....it isn't. I find that 2.0 quarts after an oil and filter change in the Savage puts me halfway between the two marks.....even though the book calls for 2.5 quarts in this case. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Digger on 11/17/10 at 21:42:05 OF, I'd really like to see the results of the poll, but I can't vote. I've never had any "trouble" checking the oil level on my Savage. How about a "No Trouble" option? TIA! |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by verslagen1 on 11/17/10 at 21:50:49 Never so inclined to look it up as it does say 1800 ml on the side of the case. But Clymer says... (qts) 1.9 oil change, 2.1 oil & filter, 2.5 overhaul. An '86 SSM says as Digger noted. They must be a whole lot better at getting all the oil out. Must use billshutter's method. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/18/10 at 05:44:47 Digger, All you told us it that it don't matter if the level is above the windows...site glasses, whatever, on a lot of bikes, not just the savage. And I'm tellin ya if it don't make any difference,...or cause any problems, as the poll has proven, MORE IS BETTER and if it makes for a safer method checking the oil as in the savage case, it is BETTER YET |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/18/10 at 07:34:43 Digger, you is all late to the party -- everybody else is all drunk and passed out now ... .... 'cept fer Bill, he's still all rollin', thrashin' and screamin' and cussin' in the bathroom -- his new girl friend has done snatched his eyeball out and stepped on it fer the sheer meanness of it. He ain't found it yet, all feelin' round with his fingers and all. BTW, what year is your owner's manual? It seems to make a difference. And, just for your own private thoughts, how many errors have you got marked up in your Clymers manual now -- and how many list improvements are noted in the same book? You can always jest vote for one poll item at random then delete your vote after you look at the results -- polls I put up have the correction option enabled. Digger sez .... I owned a 1977 Yamaha XS750D. Adding the book amount of oil after an oil change caused the level to read too high on the dipstick. I owned a 1981 Honda GL1100. Adding the book amount of oil after an oil change caused the level to read too high in the sight window. I owned a 1981 Honda GL500. Adding the book amount of oil after an oil change caused the level to read too high on the dipstick. I own a 2001 Honda ST1100. Adding the book amount of oil after an oil change caused the level to read too high in the sight window. I own a 2005 Honda GL1800. Adding the book amount of oil after an oil change caused the level to read too high on the dipstick. Pretty consistent. Yep, we agree -- the JASO (jackass stupid standard official) Japanese oil checking system sure is consistently stupid, no matter which brand of bike is using the verbiage. Both you and Charon have made that point to everybody's satisfaction. Have another drink and sit down on this nice soft thick carpet -- feels right good to pass out on, don't it? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/18/10 at 07:53:23 to have good idle speed to pump the oil up that long way to the cam. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just one more reason to check the oil on the side stand. But there is one good thing about checking it the other (stupid) way,......if its low on oil, just lean it toward you a little, so the cam can really starve for oil,......too full, lean it the other way ! Either way, you'll feel better that you did it rite. ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/18/10 at 08:02:12 Speaking of Bill ?? What Bill ?? It was "Kill Bill" Now I think its "Bill's Gone" :-/ :'( |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/18/10 at 08:04:44 OF does it that way so his bike has the right amount of oil in it.He just tilts it back and forth. ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/18/10 at 08:09:10 'Ol One Eye Bill ain't that easy to kill. (say that three times fast - all poetical, ain't it?) I done been a killin' him fer years now at the end of every oil war, and he jest keeps a commin' back fer more after he heals up some .... |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/18/10 at 08:26:24 Now for the serious Digger answer -- as serious as I can get on a Thursday anyway .... Digger, the JASO OEM oil checking method works as good as it works -- the poll indicates it has some flaws in the application method when used on a Savage and it has crashed bikes and caused personal injury to our list members. 85 issues reported at this point in time, four personal injuries and three crashed bikes to be all persnickety about it. It results in an oil level/amount that is lower than the list side stand method's oil level/amount. The list side stand method has EASE and complete consistency of use, and if implemented by a list member should always be done using the ONE TIME ONLY hot check for expansion test to verify there is no chance of oil getting up into the crank spinning area. (our bikes have shock mods, side stand pucks, etc etc etc that must be rung into the equation). It is another "Suzuki Savage Expert Method" that requires you to think it through and apply it to your own circumstances (including how durn level your driveway or garage is) them green behind the ears newbies need to stick with Road Runner method So far no one who has used the side stand check has reported an issue with the list side stand method -- and that is significant in that some just did it to prove it wrong (them Doubting Thomases, they make up the very best pool of witnesses they really do). If your bike is using some oil between oil changes or if you have ever run your oil level too low using the Suzuki Method (and a little slackness or a long trip can certainly do that to you) you may want to give the List Side Stand Method a try. (remember to do your hot test, please) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/18/10 at 11:04:01 I think we're quite safe in never telling anyone to use the sidestand method, but just letting them know how many of us do use it w/o any problem whatsoever, and how benificial it can be in a lot more ways than one. But I didn't know about the hot test, nor do I believe we're running that close, unless of course we're talking of a very unlevel floor. I myself always turn the wheel to the right, when checking oil, and I always check it cold. So I can only verify that my bike gives no problem keeping the oil between the lines, while cold, and on a level floor, and the wheel turned to the right. Other bikes could (but probably won't) differ I suppose. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/18/10 at 12:09:51 The Hot Test is the final comprehensive "I ain't got me no problem" oil level test that only has to be done once to verify things are OK -- it is easy enough to do, just do a road runner on a fully hot from a hard ride idling engine. You are looking for your running at idle fully expanded (HOT) oil to give you at least half a window or more of oil clearance to the oil shelf (which is right above the window). By doing the Hot Test you are affirming your modded shocks, girder front end, or WHATEVER YOU MAY HAVE DONE TO YOUR BIKE isn't causing you any issues with your normal running down the road hot oil level. Some of you jokers should be doing this test once anyway because of the extreme mods you have done to your bikes .... Once again, expert methods for the experienced Savage riders ..... THE NEWBIES CAN CONTINUE TO DO IT THIS WAY ...... http://looney.goldenagecartoons.com/tv/rrshow/rr-water1.jpg http://looney.goldenagecartoons.com/tv/rrshow/rr-water2.jpg http://looney.goldenagecartoons.com/tv/rrshow/rrunn1.jpg So your Savage fell over on your head while you were checking your oil window level while trying to hold your bike perfectly vertical and perfectly still ..... Silly Coyote, you should try the list side stand check method. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/18/10 at 12:37:56 Routy, How do you know unless you've done the hot test? Betcha ya ain't got an empty window ..... ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by weracerc on 11/18/10 at 12:54:08 my goodness - i just changed my oil and filter 1500 miles since i got the bike - oil was black and shifting was a little rough - oil comes in quart's as a standard qty...i added 2 when i did the first oil/filter change/ added 2 qts this time - level is in the window when not running nothing visible when engine is running all checked with bike verticle (not on the stand)......nothing in the window on the stand not running.......i have a partial qt that is use to top off the level about about every 500 miles takes a few oz's........as long as it runs good and shifts good - i will stick with the 2.0....hope i never have to do the 2.5 overhaul...... ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/18/10 at 13:02:42 2 qts ?? Well as long as you keep it idling fast, and don't go around any corners, it mite be ok ! ::) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/18/10 at 13:17:05 Routy, it aire agin der rools d-tse de nebbees taint sportn tse bill instd mr-fun |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/18/10 at 13:22:14 Hey, I don't care, I wouldn't trade Bill for nuttin ! ;) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/18/10 at 13:29:06 I put mine at the top line when the bike is plumb,At 60mph the oil is 1/4 inch below the bottom line. 8-) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by verslagen1 on 11/18/10 at 15:11:28 Were you running along side? Or doing a road runner? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by verslagen1 on 11/18/10 at 15:13:53 4C4359425E584B49414F582A0 wrote:
That's what I trade him for too, unless you'll give me something for him. Ok Ok, what will you take to take him? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/18/10 at 19:02:10 Bill said,... when the bike is plumb,At 60mph the oil is 1/4 inch below the bottom line ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not if you put in the 2.5 qts it ain't ! |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/18/10 at 19:06:44 I don't know where it is with 2 1/2 quarts,I never put that much in. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/18/10 at 19:17:51 5E5550500A0B3C0 wrote:
Thats why your camshaft is overheating and your conn rods are chattering ! ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/19/10 at 08:44:30 That's Bill's version of the hot test, typing some conflicting nonsense about something he's never done (unless he really is a road runner who can crane his neck over at 60mph to look at the oil window while running alongside himself). But it is good to see his arms have all healed up to the point he has some functioning hands again and his eyesight is good enough for him to see to pound his keyboard again .... If he behaves, we won't tell Beatrix Kiddo that he's recovered -- she wouldn't like 'ol Bill not staying properly chopped. (make her right mad, it would -- that's one girl you don't want to get mad at ya) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/19/10 at 13:37:58 Ah shite, I'm a moddyrater now -- I can't play anymore, I gots to be all respectable and obey de rules. Hmmmmm ..... De rules, which ones are de rules now-a-days? ... it is a puzzlement |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/19/10 at 14:37:19 moderators have to be true to newbies and tell them to use only motorcycle oil. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by verslagen1 on 11/19/10 at 14:39:59 747F7A7A2021160 wrote:
You are so right billshutter. Rotella T6 is JASO MA rated as called for in the owners manual and I highly recommend you use it. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/19/10 at 15:22:31 +1 on using T6 Rotella Syn (my personal preference) but the white jug Rotella dino stuff works pretty good too for those who don't rag out their engines all the time. http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=rotella-en&FC2=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/products/zzz_lhn.html&FC3=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/products/triple_protection_detail.html Plain old white jug dino Rotella T Triple Protection is now JASO rated right on the jug too, just like the $13 a quart red stuff that Bill likes so much. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Digger on 11/20/10 at 21:53:29 123F31313324560 wrote:
The oil inspection method is correct, and here's why: I owned a 1977 Yamaha XS750D. Adding the book amount of oil after an oil change caused the level to read too high on the dipstick. I owned a 1981 Honda GL1100. Adding the book amount of oil after an oil change caused the level to read too high in the sight window. I owned a 1981 Honda GL500. Adding the book amount of oil after an oil change caused the level to read too high on the dipstick. I own a 2001 Honda ST1100. Adding the book amount of oil after an oil change caused the level to read too high in the sight window. I own a 2005 Honda GL1800. Adding the book amount of oil after an oil change caused the level to read too high on the dipstick. Pretty consistent. Why on Earth would I believe that my Savage would be any different.....it isn't. I find that 2.0 quarts after an oil and filter change in the Savage puts me halfway between the two marks.....even though the book calls for 2.5 quarts in this case.[/quote] 434C564D515744464E4057250 wrote:
Actually, with those other bikes, I ended up adding less oil than the book called for, so as to keep the oil level between the low and high lines on the dipstick/sight window. I know that on some bikes, it does matter if the oil level is higher than the high mark on the dipstick/sight window (90's vintage BMW K bikes come to mind for some reason....perhaps someone else can expand on this). As far as the significance of all of my old bikes having books that seemingly called for too much oil......I can't quite recall what I was thinking when I posted that....... :-? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Digger on 11/20/10 at 21:55:26 1E3D3537343D3D3423510 wrote:
Old, Thanks....that trick worked great! |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/21/10 at 03:53:38 You were just noticing the disconnect and how CONSISTENTLY INCONSISTENT it was across the bikes and brands. Charon found pretty much the same thing. ;D That's why I like that hot test thingie -- you do that once and you KNOW what your bike REALLY REALLY does when the oil is fully expanded. Now, do I really think some oils expand more than other oils do? Well, some are dino based, some are PAO ester based and my personal oil choice is based on a cracked wax. So yes, I bet they do expand differently, their very natures are different. Nothing like KNOWING, is there? ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by JimRR on 11/23/10 at 09:10:06 My GF's Savage will not hold the mentioned 2.5 qts. When I change her oil and filter, I let it all drain out, remove the filter, put the kickstand down while in first gear, the turn the engine over and gush out some more, then let it drain some more. To get her oil to the correct level it takes about 2200ml of 10W-40, I buy oil in 2.5 gallon containers and I must measure carefully. I then go out and run the bike around for 10-15 minutes then check. It usually is always right to the top notch in the window. Regards, Jim. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/23/10 at 12:48:41 JimRR, Which checking method are you using? Sounds vertical, but I can't be sure unless I ask. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by JimRR on 11/24/10 at 02:40:27 In my garage with my GF holding the machine on its balance point. I hardly ever check the oil level by my self. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/24/10 at 04:38:46 Quote: My GF's Savage will not hold the mentioned 2.5 qts. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Wanna bet ? Do you know the purpose of this Poll/ thread ? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/24/10 at 05:16:46 0625211E1E4C0 wrote:
Thats the best way to do it,Theres no way I can hold my 1500 up and check the oil with out someone holding the bike for me,We are luck the jap bikes hardly burn any oil. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/24/10 at 08:36:16 Quote: Thats the best way to do it,Theres no way I can hold my 1500 up and check the oil with out someone holding ---------------------------------------------------------- Do you know the purpose of this thread ? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/24/10 at 08:40:46 2A253F24383E2D2F27293E4C0 wrote:
I agreed with you Routy its sort of a wasteful tread. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/24/10 at 08:58:02 Well I don't know where I ever said that. This poll has proven what I said a year ago,.....that there is an easier, safer, and better way to check the oil than the "vertical" way. And in doing so, it will take the 2.3 -2.5 quarts of oil to bring it in window site. No one is telling anyone to do it the easier, safer, more sensible way, but the poll is just showing that it can be done that way w/o any problems whatsoever. But from the last couple posts here, it seem some don't know what the purpose of the poll was/is. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/24/10 at 10:36:01 Very few people read the first part of a 15 page thread, they only read what they see on the last page, and maybe turn back one page or two if something catches their eye. Polls are that way too, the instructions for a poll are on the very first page, but the silly thing shows on all subsequent pages and many people "vote" completely blind based on what they see on the last couple of pages. :) but that's how she works, boys and girls ..... reality is. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/24/10 at 10:41:01 I didn't take Suzuki 15 pages to tell you how to check your oil. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/24/10 at 12:53:40 464D48481213240 wrote:
As I read it, the 15 pages is not telling anyone how to check their oil. It is determining if there is any possible reason why the oil should not be checked the easier, safer, more sensible way. And from the results I think its quite clear that there is no problem. But being that you keep insisting that the vertical method is no problem, safe, and so easy,....even tho you have to get help to do it, just keep doing it that way,.....we don't mind,....really we don't ! |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/24/10 at 13:33:37 http://looney.goldenagecartoons.com/tv/rrshow/rrunn1.jpg So your Savage fell over on your head while you were checking your oil window level while trying to hold your bike all perfectly vertical and perfectly still ..... Silly Coyote, you should try the List Side Stand check method. It is much easier to do and is just as "rational" as the Suzuki method |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/24/10 at 13:39:51 4C4359425E584B49414F582A0 wrote:
As I read it, the 15 pages is not telling anyone how to check their oil. It is determining if there is any possible reason why the oil should not be checked the easier, safer, more sensible way. And from the results I think its quite clear that there is no problem. But being that you keep insisting that the vertical method is no problem, safe, and so easy,....even tho you have to get help to do it, just keep doing it that way,.....we don't mind,....really we don't ! [/quote] I need no help on my s40 2 2x6 make it plumb,Yes on my 1500 the same way works,But being if it started to get away I couldn't hold it its near 800# |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by ralfyguy on 11/25/10 at 16:32:06 A short piece of Landscape timber under the stand, and steering all the way to the left makes it plumb for me. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by feelinjunky on 11/25/10 at 21:26:17 5271797B787171786F1D0 wrote:
Firstly, I want to say that I have read this entire thread, from page 1 through page 18, in the last hour or so. Having read it, I have a few comments/observations. I must comment on this guy over here, Oldfeller, you are a 10! YOU'RE A F*CKIN 10! You mad my night! Ahem. Secondly, I would like to point out the painfully obvious fact that this entire thread is based on plus/minus 0.25quarts of oil. And to answer the question on the table, I would like to take a unique point of view, in saying that BOTH the amount of oil AND the inspection method are correct! HAHAHA..cough cough.ahhah......ahem. The logic is as follows: Fill 2.5 quarts of oil and check it periodically to make sure it isn't below the lower level. Periodically doesn't mean 5 minutes after you've poured in the oil, or 5 days after you let the bike sit after an oil change, of course... |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/26/10 at 04:50:29 Primary purpose of the thread -- alleviate boredom Secondary purpose -- educate list members Success? I'm less bored (aren't you) and we got 29 people saying they use the list method and that's up 4 from when we started. But you guys can quit this crazy thing any time you want .... jest quit typing. It's Bill's fault anyway, cause his Klotz is red |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/26/10 at 05:34:20 Red ? I thought red goes in transmissions. I've often wondered why the red trans oil that is so good for wet clutches, (an auto tranny is full of them) and is so good at lubricating all those delicate little needle bearings in the planetary gears, etc etc, and is so heat resistent, (400 deg) wouldn't be the best motor oil ever. You don't suppose Bill really does know what works better ?? sorry, off topic again,...darn ! |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/26/10 at 05:42:09 I think he does |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/26/10 at 16:39:24 not |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/26/10 at 18:19:55 too |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by verslagen1 on 11/26/10 at 18:33:41 bright |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Boofer on 11/26/10 at 20:18:05 Just thought I'd check in on you guys. Still at it? I hope no one missed Thanksgiving over this. Could you get this figured out by Christmas? Ya'll are beginning to look like Congress. When you come up with a 3 1/2 lb "study" on the subject let me know. I'd like a copy. I suggest a Savage Summitt (SS'10) around a big table with everyone armed to the teeth. Of course it would be videotaped so the families of the victims could have a CD of the action to remember their loved ones. "Grandpa, were you really at the SS in 2010?" "Yes son, that's how I got this stiff knee." "Did you get shot like the others?" "Well, er not really. I got this bum knee trying to kick start my Savage to get away. It happened so fast I forgot I had electric start." Folks, I've apparently got way too much time on my hands. I need some dressing and cranberry sauce. And a Nexxium. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/27/10 at 04:04:54 I was so stuffed yesterday, I needed to do something, but that something had to be very "EASY" to do,......so I went out and checked the oil in my bike,.....never touching the bike,...got down on one knee looked at the glass, and there is was,....the level right between the lines,.....and right where it was the last time I rode it 2 weeks ago ! Really,?? I knew the level hadn't change because I hadn't even started it in 2 weeks, but I checked it just because it was so dammed easy ! ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/27/10 at 04:19:17 Yes, they are still at it. Bill is the last surviving person on the Nonsensical side and since he can grow back all his shot off and hacked off body parts he's still in there, sluggin' away .... ..... got nothing in his guns but he's still a clicking at us. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/27/10 at 04:33:14 I enjoy checking my oil, I can do it as often as I want with absolutely no effort other than jest casting my eye down at it. It is either there or it ain't. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by ebonysresearch on 11/27/10 at 05:31:22 This thread is just AWESOME!!!! |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/27/10 at 06:21:54 The only reason I bought a motorcycle is because I like checking the oil.i do it any time my young neighbor girl has her mini skirt on and holds up the bike for me. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/27/10 at 07:01:56 Bill, she's on the other side of the bike, you know that don't you? .... and being all small and dainty, she's likely to drop the durn thing on your head again. "clicky click, click" goes Bill's empty gun |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by feelinjunky on 11/27/10 at 09:46:34 I check my oil immediately after I did an oil and filter change. I come back weeks later, having not touched the bike and the oil is lower. She needs oil to live, guys. She needs it to breathe and drinks a few drops daily, even when lonely...I'll give a cookie to the first person to tell me why this is so. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Serowbot on 11/27/10 at 09:53:54 6566666F6A6D69766D687A030 wrote:
Kleptomaniacal carport squirrels... :-?... |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by verslagen1 on 11/27/10 at 09:57:36 7172727B7E797D62797C6E170 wrote:
Sounds like a case of cylinder slugs to me. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/27/10 at 10:06:17 Ah, you didn't actually run the bike by any chance? Using them motorcycles can cause them to move a little oil ..... run it up into the head bath, fill up galleries, etc. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/27/10 at 10:41:59 People who go to "heroic" levels to empty the oil OUT may find they can get more IN than the book says it needs. They should also see a greater drop in oil level when it gets started the first time, pumping oil back into places it should stay. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/27/10 at 11:02:45 Yeah, the smart ones of us that use the side stand method don't get bothered very much by these little issues. We got reserve capacity ... But them greenie vertical boys don't have much to spare, so they have to sweat all them little details .... |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/27/10 at 11:10:58 OF you have it all wrong the Japs take United States ideas and improve on them not the other way around. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/27/10 at 11:30:33 Oh, is that why we have all those corrections in our Clymer's manuals and had to redo the cam chain and cam chain tensioner system? As well as white insert mod the carb? And fix the speedo rattle? And fix the headlight rattle? And fix the head rubber plug leak? Japanese owner's manual say "balance motorcycle right on edge of destruction" so you have to put your head to ground and big American butt up in air so smart Japanese people can LAUGH at you from behind our straight faces. Oh so sorry, you drop your motorcycle and need new mirror and clutch lever, sooooo bad, we sell you new parts for plenty yen !!! |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/27/10 at 11:40:32 5E5550500A0B3C0 wrote:
That was in the 60's. Was a time when "Made in Japan" had me walking away from things. Then, they got better & better & finally, their products were Top Shelf, World Class.. then, they went thru about 20 years of Zero Interest, & the accompanying economic downturn & their products stopped being such fabulous creations.. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/27/10 at 11:48:39 The Japanese don't even make the parts for the current Savage, the bits and pieces for the engines and frame parts come from China and India. Does the name Li-Fan ring any bells with you? Guess why your cam chain life nose-dived since year 2000 ? .... and the smart Japanese people laugh at the ugly stupid butt-up-in-air Giajin |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/27/10 at 12:27:56 Guess why your cam chain life nose-dived since year 2000 ? So, you really DO expect major differences in life span of the cam chains with the Special Order chains? When did they change the tensioner spring? Did they make it stronger or weaker? IIRC, they softened it up a bit. If so, maybe it was because they knew the chain they were puttin in was crap. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by feelinjunky on 11/27/10 at 12:39:47 51727A787B72727B6C1E0 wrote:
*gives Oldfeller a cookie* I did not run it. Oil filter soaked some oil up. :) :) :) :) :) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by verslagen1 on 11/27/10 at 12:41:30 If I remember correctly, it is about a pound stronger to begin with and the same at end of travel. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/27/10 at 13:14:21 Justin, I had gone back direct to Borg Warner wearing my corporate QC hat and spoke with one of the chain's original designers, explained the short life problem we were seeing on the Savage and he told us which specific nitriding system would give MAXIMUM LIFE in our particular application (which barely wears the chain at all between new and totally shot to shite because you got no decent amount of travel in our cam chain adjustment system). He then communicated directly to the Japanese Borg Warner facility that used to make our cam chain and they whupped us up a batch of Japanese built custom improved chains that exactly suit the Savage engine. Lancer sent them out to everybody at half the retail cost of a standard chain and the small profit margin we left in on purpose on top of that went to help maintain the list for a year and a bit with the $$ from the first order. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/27/10 at 14:26:16 & my chain is not yet installed.. he he he.. I may just sell that thing. May sell my Supertrapp, too. Thinking of jetting back down, going more stock & selling my spare parts off, Superbrace, Supertrapp & cam chain, Orings & other little spare parts & selling the bike come Spring. Thatd bring in about enuff $$$ to get a sports car. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/28/10 at 01:53:05 Funny you should say that, the motor I'm building isn't going to be all super ratted as I once planned, instead it's gonna be pure bone stock. When I finally quit my Dragon days the original one is gonna be pretty ragged around the edges and I will put this one in and get me some of that good old better gas mileage and lumpa lumpa torque running stuff again. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/28/10 at 06:27:46 Are there any more defenders of the vertical oil check method? Is there anybody that has found anything about it that is compelling or rational as to why we should keep on doing it? ======================== Items in evidence against the Vertical Method Five (5) dropped bikes -- no telling how many near misses ... Seven (7) personal injuries and just about everybody seems to have had some issues seeing inside the silly window while holding on to the bike and Bill of all people condemns the Vertical Method for its true hidden flaw, that you tend to see whatever it is you want to see by unconsciously tilting the bike just a tad in one direction or the other. Gentlemen, is the Kangaroo Kourt ready to rule yet? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by photojoe on 11/28/10 at 06:39:19 Biggest PITA is not being able to see the oil in the window. I use a flashlight even in the day time. When riding in Pa. with TMack, I noticed he carried a small piece of 2"X4" with him. During a stop, I'm doing the vertical lean, and TM puts his side stand on the wood. Worked good. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/28/10 at 06:51:32 TMack is doing a sidestand check (yes, a somewhat modified version but he votes fer side stand check method by doing it). Doing a TMack is a rational position for those who can't stomach the full side stand trick. Vote is currently 1 to 1 |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/28/10 at 07:27:11 OF, I'm not sure you're getting thru to folks. The 2x4 trick is about as old as me,....I been down that road,......the point is, whats the point of the 2x4.......or any other trick that is not needed ? The sad part is, I believe our group here is a ways behind time in using the SS method. I've talked to 2 guys personally that didn't know anything but the SS method. And like I've said way too many times, when I bought mine 1 1/2 yrs ago, the dealer checked the oil on the SS, and so did I. It was my brother (had a book) that told me of the vertical. But he is a convert now too. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/28/10 at 07:45:55 Let them vote their convictions, that's what a Kangaroo Kourt does .... Ain't about justice or rationality, it's about how you feel is how you vote. Vote is still 1 to 1 And if a carrying a little block of wood keeps you from dropping your bike, hey --- you sure can carry that little block of wood. Just so you recognize you are splitting the difference between pure vertical and pure side stand by doing so. and you is still a side stander |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by verslagen1 on 11/28/10 at 07:56:21 I don't think you can count the Tmack method as a side stand check. A true side stand check will leave you full to the top line or higher when vertical. Last time I filled up, I checked the level vertical (exactly midway) and again when on my pre-vertical brick (a bit taller than a 2x4) under the side stand (bottom line). So I'm now using that method to achieve the same results. You might remember from my 'Oil temps and usage' thread that I keep the oil on the low side. When I've filled to the top line (vert) I get oil in the airbox, about a cup of oil. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/28/10 at 08:06:49 I use Suzuki method never get oil in air box.Engine runs cool and quiet. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/28/10 at 08:07:09 Oil in the air box, oil coming out of the air box. These are known symptoms of too much oil. On the first mountain trip we put too much oil in Ed's bike after we epoxied his alternator/flywheel side cover back shut. The excess blew out his air box through his vent tube. Did it right smartly, too. All side stand people -- go check your air box for unusual amounts of oil. I can't say, I use an oiled polyfill air filter so I always have some oil in the bottom of my air box. I mop it dry every time I check my air filter and I can't say any more or any less since I went side stand cause I haven't noticed any real change. vote is 3 to one for vertical (not counting any of the declared side stand people yet, t'ain't the proper time fer that yet) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/28/10 at 08:11:20 All sidestand people check your air box for oil,Suzuki method people you don't have too. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/28/10 at 08:12:30 Now Bill, I was nice, I even counted your vote. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/28/10 at 08:19:03 OF says buy a Suzuki Manuel OF says don't go by the Suzuki manuel :o |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Serowbot on 11/28/10 at 08:20:36 I can't believe we have 20 pages,... 300 posts,... 3000 views,... on the topic of a sight glass... It's definitely the off season... :-?... Has anyone noticed there is no option in the poll for "Works fine for me, no problem"...?... |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/28/10 at 08:22:53 OF says "Correct all the mistakes in your Suzuki / Clymers Manual" That's what the last 20 pages has all been about. ============================= Stated reason for the poll was to see how many people were honest enough to admit they had dumped their bike while checking the oil. Rest was a distribution of potential problems, which racked up quite a spread in some unexpected directions too. You voting? Give us a thumbs up or thumbs down .... |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/28/10 at 08:57:51 I havent voted because mine isnt running & till I get to play with it & see for myself how mine acts with enough oil in it to see it in the window as it rests on the SS, Im not gonna,, But I expect itll leave here, when I sell it, with oil in it for the SS method & Ill school up the next Savage forum reader. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/28/10 at 09:01:21 3 to 2 for vertical |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/28/10 at 09:28:10 5C7F7775767F7F7661130 wrote:
For? or against? Okay now, everbody get ready. Im gonna slip this in riiiight about here. Im uhh, leanin toward usin the SS method,, |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by verslagen1 on 11/28/10 at 09:52:06 46595F5845427343734B59551E2C0 wrote:
For? or against? Okay now, everbody get ready. Im gonna slip this in riiiight about here. Im uhh, leanin toward usin the SS method,,[/quote] OF accounting 101, rule #1, anybody hints that they might vote one way or the other, they just did. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/28/10 at 09:52:29 So, counting Justin's vote the score is Three votes to two, with vertical still ahead by one vote (not counting the votes for the side standers actively involved in this or the other threads). We are trying to poll the Kangaroo Kourt jury box, not the plaintiffs or the defendants. Lupo was right BTW, thread reset to the point of derailment. Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Howitzer on 11/28/10 at 22:54:17 352A2C2B3631003000382A266D5F0 wrote:
I'm looking into buying a Supertrapp. Shoot me a PM if you decide to sell it. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/29/10 at 06:02:06 Upon some somber reflection, it seems Bill has left the jury box to man a machine gun and sling some one liner hand grenades so his vote has to be counted as one of the Plantiff / Defendant group. Accordingly, the vote from the "impartial" Kangaroo Kourt now sits tied at 2 for vertical and 2 for side stand. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by rl153 on 11/29/10 at 07:39:46 Is there much of a chance that oil will blow into the air box if you fill the oil level to just visible in the sight glass,engine cold, on the side stand ? Under what circumstances ,could you get oil in the air box ,at this level?Thanks. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/29/10 at 11:30:22 rl153, your 2005 bike has less than 5,000 miles on it so you would count as practically new as far as blow by goes. This bike makes a good "new bike" test bed for the idea, so you will learn what is to be learned on a new bike set up. Your hot test for the oil level you picked should show just about an empty window, mebbe a tiny bit more, so I would think your chances of any extra oil in your air box would be minimal. The main question about oil in the air box is amount based - the dump tube (the one you are supposed to open at each oil change) generally collects oil and byproducts from the air box on even a brand new bike. The huff tube from the head carries oil particles and blow-by vapors to the air box naturally where it accumulates, runs down the walls of the air box and goes down the dump tube. Actually, the majority of the oil particles get sucked back through the carb and get burned in the next combustion cycle, so we are talking "remnants" of an intentional pollution control process here. New bikes generally generate oil in the airbox/dump tube to the tune of a partial shot glass full per oil change. The trouble sign we are looking now for is a positive puddle of oil at the bottom of the air box showing that a significant amount of oil particles has made the trip from head to air box. Very old bikes have this issue naturally, as their blow by is great and the amount of oil particles making down the huff tube are great as well. What does this do to your bike? If you are using a K&N or a list polyfill filter, nothing. It is just something to clean up periodically. If you are using a paper filter, likely nothing will happen as the paper filter is well up away from any layer of oil at the bottom of the air box. Lay the bike over though, and the oil could get on to the paper filter as it runs out of the air box (bike on its side). ============================================ Any of you side stand boys noted any amount of oil sitting in the bottom of your air box yet? Any greater flow from your dump tube at oil change time? No news is good news ..... (same request added to the Tech Thread) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by rl153 on 11/29/10 at 16:03:09 Thanks OF ,that's interesting . I was doing the brick +3/8 peice of plywood method ,vertical, using a flashlight in the garage. I would fill the oil level halfway between the top of the glass and the upper line ,vertical cold . When it was warmed up the level was slightly under the upper line on the glass.I changed my oil and filter about a month ago,and there was about a tablespoon of oil in the drain tube,when i opened it. I'm going to try the sidestand method next spring(done riding for the winter)And I"ll check the drain tube after a few months. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/29/10 at 16:20:56 Score is now 3 votes for side stand vs 2 votes for vertical (using Verslagen's interpretation of my Accounting Rule #1) :) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by gerald.hughes on 11/29/10 at 16:28:49 I have always checked my oil by the vertical method for one simple reason. There are almost no flat, level surfaces around. I find it very easy to hold my bike vertically. (If you have problems, put a bubble level on your handle bars.) I do have a mirror on a shaft that allows me to simply look down and see the oil check window. I have never had a problem with this method. I would prefer a dip stick, but it is no big deal, certainly not worth all the discussion that has been spent on it. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/29/10 at 16:36:16 Score tied again at 3 each. :) Do you keep your little mirror in your saddle bag, or does it stay in the garage? So, now we got laminated blocks of wood, little mirrors and bubble balances stuck on handle bars -- all items required by some folks to do the vertical method "properly". The side stand people need ---- a single glance down with the Mark 1 unaided eyeball. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/29/10 at 16:43:20 Another advantage of KLOTZ oil is the red shows up really good and the oil keeps the back of the little window clean. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/29/10 at 16:46:38 We have 2x4s, 2x6s, knee pads, mirrors on sticks, and bubble levels on handle bars, wives, exwives, and girlfriends as helpers,............and its still not a problem ! Sorry, I just have to chuckle out loud ! ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/29/10 at 16:59:23 And we got us Bill to help us too. We is soooo blessed in so many ways here on the list, really we are. Score is still tied at three each .... |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Boofer on 11/30/10 at 00:44:51 I haven't been keeping up, so forgive me if this has been suggested. Anyone thought about mounting a low oil light? Just turn on the switch, get on, straighten her up to riding position. You could have a red light for low or a green light for go. Or both. :o |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/30/10 at 07:39:46 Which oil level would you set yours to, Boofer? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/30/10 at 11:21:41 How would you do that,........better yet, why ? I think checking the site glass on the SS, is even easier than a dipstick. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/30/10 at 11:29:31 717E647F636576747C7265170 wrote:
& Youll keep thinking that & youll be right, too, well , till someone paints yer danged window black,, |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by sluggo on 11/30/10 at 16:15:17 i got a brick and a stick holds it perfectl |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/30/10 at 19:19:11 Ok, I'll bite. How do the stick and the brick come together to help make vertical oil level checking easier? ....... ya take this stick, see, and you cram the stick tight into the middle hole of the brick -- gives you a cave man club you can use to ....... |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 11/30/10 at 19:30:07 The brick under the kick stand and the stick on the other side,Holding up the bike. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/30/10 at 20:04:25 6A756C7E7E76190 wrote:
Ok lets see,.....add one stick,.....and 1 brick to the list ! ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 11/30/10 at 20:10:49 716E686F72754474447C6E62291B0 wrote:
& Youll keep thinking that & youll be right, too, well , till someone paints yer danged window black,, [/quote] They didn't........did they ? :-/ |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 11/30/10 at 20:24:23 BILL ...... What's that leaking in your shirt pocket? :( Wouldn't happen to be a black sharpie pen by any chance ??? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/30/10 at 21:27:36 If thers a klots sticker on it, its Bills! |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 12/01/10 at 04:25:51 They painted just the bottom 1/2 of yer window ???? NO NO NO !! Not even Bill would do such a thing,...I just know he wouldn't ! |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 12/01/10 at 08:19:38 Well now, mebbe he would. He's got this sense of humor, he does .... |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by sluggo on 12/01/10 at 13:26:26 45666E6C6F66666F780A0 wrote:
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 12/01/10 at 19:18:02 Oh, its a BALANCING stick --- balance the bottom of stick on the brick, balance the kickstand on top of the stick, balance the bike upright so you can bend over and look at the oil window. What happens if you were to grab onto something when you start to go over? Or, heaven forbid, a sudden gust of wind comes up? ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 12/01/10 at 20:37:34 Is this thread about done,......I swear I can't take anymore vertical horror stories ! :-/ |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 12/01/10 at 21:34:57 You gonna quit while we are behind? We is losing !!! Sluggo makes it 4 to 3 in favor of vertical (and they all have some mechanical contrivance they have to use to make it work for them) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 12/01/10 at 22:47:27 We ain't even voted yet. And besides that, I'm not fooled,..... there ain't hardly a soul that has read this thread, that in the privacy of there own bike garage,....after they turn around a few times to make sure we ain't lookin, ain't gonna check their oil from now on the common senseable way.....on the sidestand ! And thats not to speak of ....that most anyone in the mechanical know, knows that more oil is a lot better in an aircooled engine, and will do it for that reason if nothin else. And thats not to mention that this all comes completely for free ! And if by some slim chance I'm wrong, they are the ones that loose,...not us ! ;) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 12/02/10 at 10:10:06 Hee hee, and at the end when we are still losing by a few, well --- I'll count the votes for the plaintiff and the defendant sides as well. That will pick us up one or two votes anyway. Actually, we are doing well -- approximately 50% of the people actually voting have recently changed sides. This is pretty good for changing the minds of men -- ask any woman, she'll tell you. ;D .... and with Drums ringing in below that brings us back up to tied at 4 votes each. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by drums1 on 12/02/10 at 10:34:27 I must admit, I feel a bit like a senator voting on the unemployment extension. But, I will admit, I have officially changed sides. I am now a sidestand checker. ( 2 1/2 Qts. ) It is a lot easier and safer. I just stick to the 2 1/2 Qts., and it seems to be just right. A little high on the vertical, but no oil in the airbox, and burns very little. Probably leaks more than it burns. Either way, it's down for the winter, and I am deciding how deep I want to dig. I don't want to disassemble it farther than my knowhow can put back together. Not to mention that $$ is very tight. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Digger on 12/09/10 at 21:32:32 69444A4A485F2D0 wrote:
The oil inspection method is correct, and here's why: I owned a 1977 Yamaha XS750D. Adding the book amount of oil after an oil change caused the level to read too high on the dipstick. I owned a 1981 Honda GL1100. Adding the book amount of oil after an oil change caused the level to read too high in the sight window. I owned a 1981 Honda GL500. Adding the book amount of oil after an oil change caused the level to read too high on the dipstick. I own a 2001 Honda ST1100. Adding the book amount of oil after an oil change caused the level to read too high in the sight window. I own a 2005 Honda GL1800. Adding the book amount of oil after an oil change caused the level to read too high on the dipstick. Pretty consistent. Why on Earth would I believe that my Savage would be any different.....it isn't. I find that 2.0 quarts after an oil and filter change in the Savage puts me halfway between the two marks.....even though the book calls for 2.5 quarts in this case.[/quote] 434C564D515744464E4057250 wrote:
Actually, with those other bikes, I ended up adding less oil than the book called for, so as to keep the oil level between the low and high lines on the dipstick/sight window. I know that on some bikes, it does matter if the oil level is higher than the high mark on the dipstick/sight window (90's vintage BMW K bikes come to mind for some reason....perhaps someone else can expand on this). As far as the significance of all of my old bikes having books that seemingly called for too much oil......I can't quite recall what I was thinking when I posted that....... :-?[/quote] Ooh! Ooh! I remember now what point I was trying to make. It seems as if it is quite common for Japanese motorcycle manufacturers to overstate the amount of oil you should pour into the crankcase after an oil change. Therefore, I can conclude that, for the Savage, 2.5 quarts is probably too much (if you define too much as being over the upper limit on the window). However, I do understand Routy's point. Perhaps it is OK, in the Savage's case, to add "too much" oil. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Digger on 12/09/10 at 22:06:21 My vote is for level. I generally just sit on the bike and balance it at the vertical balance point (very easy to sense). I then position a long-handled mirror such that I can read the oil level. Very easy to do, but not really needed since my bike (see signature) has never burned any oil....KOW! And now, in the spirit of this thread, I will post perhaps the most ridiculous way ever concocted to set the bike to level: First, chock both tires: http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/2847/level2evc7.jpg http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8527/level3eah4.jpg Then, run a strap from the bike to the wall of your garage. Leave the strap a bit loose for now: http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/1198/level4eqk2.jpg http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/144/level1evy5.jpg Prop the bike's sidestand up on two short sections of 2"X4": http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5947/level5emc8.jpg Now, snug the strap to keep the bike from toppling over: http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9008/level6ejm7.jpg She ain't gonna fall over on you now, and you can get a good look at the oil level. Truth be told, I don't do this anymore, unless I need to secure the bike for some work and I'm too lazy to put it on a stand. I originally posted this method some time ago. See near the bottom of page 1 of this thread: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1184815874/13#13 |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by rl153 on 12/10/10 at 09:30:37 If you fill the oil ,so that it's just visible on the side stand ,with the engine cold,is that 2.5 quarts of oil ,or a little less? Thanks |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 12/10/10 at 09:58:12 Digger is one of the active defendants, so his vote, Charon's and Bill's won't be counted until the very end along with all the various plantiffs's votes. (we are trying to poll the Kangaroo Kourt right now, but it seems the jury box is pretty much empty at this stage). For Vertical, we got laminated wood blocks, bricks, sticks, walls, multiple tie downs, spirit levels, quite a few long handled mirrors and various other paraphernalia needed to do a "proper" upright check without getting hurt. We also got 126 list user reported problems doing Vertical, 7 personal injuries and 5 dropped bikes. (and that is just what the guys will admit to -- we ain't getting told the really ugly ones ....) For Side Stand, we got a quick glance downwards as you walk up to the bike simply using your standard issue Mark I eyeball. Although asked repeatedly, so far we have no reported issues either on this thread or over at the original thread in Tech Section. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1283793450/27#27 (there are two clicks for problems, one guy admitted he screwed up clicking with his mouse, the other remained silent as to his situation, whatever it might have been) ================================== So, if you wanted to try to do a straw count of the final vote it might go sorta like this ..... Kangaroo Kourt is tied at 4 each For Vertical, add in the 3 defense side people from the Tech Thread add in the 2 who screwed up their clicks but had no problem to report (gotta be fair now) being generous and fair, add in the 22 people who voted neutral as they are still verticalling at this point in time (but admit to sitting on the teetery top edge of the fence) That's a grand total of 31 votes for vertical (giving vertical all the help you possibly could, cause it needs it) ;D Now for Sidestand, it has gained quite a few since this thread started up (and it will gain more as time goes on, I suspect) .... Lets see now, 4 from the Kangaroo Kourt, 2 plaintiffs, and 30 from the other thread makes 36 total. So with 67 being the sample count (about half the active posting list getting counted in this survey) we have about half and half for each method, with the side stand method growing rapidly and the vertical method losing ground accordingly. ;D Remember boys and girls, keep on checking and looking for any issues with that side stand method -- we is still a looking for that secret flaw to the side stand system to equal the one that Bill found for the vertical method .... (and that being that unconsciously you get whatever vertical oil level you are looking for by unconsciously tilting the bike jest a little tiny bit one way or another) go Bill, go !! |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Serowbot on 12/10/10 at 10:27:02 I just pull the engine and shake it... :-?... |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 12/10/10 at 12:37:56 OF I always have my young neighbor girl tilt the bike back and forth till the oil is level thats the best and easiest way,Even if it does take her a half hour. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by ebonysresearch on 12/10/10 at 16:46:07 Pull the engine and shake it was awesome! Digger! Holy apparatus to check your oil! Are you serious...man grab some front brake and tip her upright. this bike only weighs so much. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 12/10/10 at 17:13:12 Digger sounds like one of the five who had his Savage fall on his headbone at some time or another. That's headbone protection, there a hangin' off that wall .... You can spot the rest of the ones who had it happen to them (but won't fess to it) due to the little long mirrors, bricks and sticks and laminated wood blocks they always carry with them. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 12/11/10 at 05:16:59 Lets just hope Digger carries one of those panic buttons that cries out, "HELP....a SAVAGE HAS ME NAILED TO THE CONCRETE, AND I CAN'T GET UP" !! |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 12/11/10 at 05:28:02 And are we going to have any pity for the vertical diehards when they wonder why their engine life is only 1/2 as long as long as our "more oil" side stand engines,....that just keep "going and going and going and going and going"?! |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 12/11/10 at 06:33:44 All we have to do is keep looking for any potential downsides and keep on talking, they will eventually get the picture. So far we have 30 people looking at the side stand method objectively and that is quite a few people studying the situation -- and the fact that no downside has appeared yet is relatively encouraging to anyone who is considering the change. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by bill67 on 12/11/10 at 06:35:01 I wonder how long the engine would last with 4 quarts in it,Probably into the next century. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 12/11/10 at 09:02:28 4 quarts would be too much normal oil -- unless of course it was Klotz Red Magic then it would be a 2 lifetimes supply since you never ever have to change it. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by BurnPgh on 12/11/10 at 11:15:24 potential downside to the sidestand method....my clutch would slip from time to time unless i let the bike warm up real good first. Only would slip on the first take off out the driveway. After that it was golden but if i didnt give it a solid few minutes to get good and toasty id slip the first 10-15ft down the driveway before the clutch would finally catch. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 12/11/10 at 12:22:02 Burn, let me guess -- 20w50 weight dino oil? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 12/12/10 at 05:26:24 7245425E605758300 wrote:
I been wonderin if your post is serious,......only because at launch, I'm 30-50 feet down the driveway before I ever fully engage the clutch,.....no question mines slippin ! ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 12/12/10 at 06:41:13 He could be serious -- I have noted that clutch issues seem to cluster around people using 20w50 motor oils and these issues seem to be worse when the engine is cold and the oil is very thick and viscous. Folks using 10w40 oils jest don't see the same incidence rate of slip problems, makes you sorta wonder about that 20w50 stuff .... |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by ralfyguy on 12/12/10 at 20:36:48 I used Lucas 20W-50 for years and never had a clutch issue. I switched to Rot Syn 5W-40 last time. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Digger on 12/12/10 at 21:49:28 51565B5A4D475358554747340 wrote:
I've done that, too, with nary a problem. I posted my Rube Goldberg setup because I use it sometimes to keep the bike level while I'm working on it and I'm too lazy to put it up on the stand. However, I always give the oil window a look when I have the bike sitting level like this.....why not? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Digger on 12/12/10 at 21:51:22 4C6F6765666F6F6671030 wrote:
Nope, never did. It did worry me at times, though! ;) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/13/10 at 09:43:28 Maybe Im just more flexible than others, IDK, But, I can check oil by facing the rear & as I drop to one knee, I just grab the throttle end O the bars. & bring it over a bit. So what if a level wouldnt be dead on>? Its OIL,, theres a RANGE of "Oil Level Is OOOOKay". It can be higher than the top line or lower than the top line, it doesnt have to be done with an eye dropper.. people are WAAY too anal about this. its not that hard. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by feelinjunky on 12/13/10 at 19:04:57 Why do people put 20W-50 when the manual recommends 10W-40? Works in the same temperature range, so I don't see the reason for it. There should be a separate poll for "Which oil viscosity do you use?" |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 12/14/10 at 18:26:35 504F494E53546555655D4F43083A0 wrote:
Right, the oil level is not critical, thats the point of all this Anal ??,.....thats your take of it Its not hard ?? For you, maybe not,...for me its just plain dangerous, and unnecessary,.....and stupid way of checking oil. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Boofer on 12/14/10 at 19:49:29 Hey, fellows. Just checking back with ya'll. The last time I was here was after Thanksgiving. What was the question? I forget. Anyway, for a lot of you I'll just say that Christmas is coming up fast. The wife and kids will be expecting something. Maybe you should get up and take a shower, shave, get outside. I think this thread will be here when you get back. Best of luck to ya'. Merry Christmas, Boofer ;) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/14/10 at 19:51:30 This is our motorcycle therad. We all contribute.. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Boofer on 12/14/10 at 19:59:50 JOG2, Just pickin' at ya'll. I contributed way back on the first page. 14 degrees here in the South this morning. No riding weather in sight. Why do you think I'm on this crazy site? ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/14/10 at 20:42:39 14 degrees says it all.. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by BurnPgh on 12/22/10 at 14:31:34 07242C2E2D24242D3A480 wrote:
Rotella T |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 12/24/10 at 06:46:36 Hold it !!! I just found a problem w/ "sidestand"! W/ the more oil it requires, it take longer to warm up on these chilly days,..... ::) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by drums1 on 12/24/10 at 06:48:19 Pshaw!!!! Gas waster......... ::) |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 12/24/10 at 11:36:28 Ok, the boys have found the single real flaw so far noted about the side stand method. Once you get it rolling, it takes you 200 more feet of running distance to warm the bike up completely. OK guys, anything else? |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/24/10 at 13:10:01 7D5E5654575E5E5740320 wrote:
Well, thats easily remedied, restrict the exhaust a bit & hold some o that heat up in yonna. |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 12/24/10 at 18:05:56 My drilled exhaust !! You mean that came back to haunt me ?? :o Ya think one of those old butterfly heat risers would work ? :-/ |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 12/24/10 at 19:15:19 Jest ride the extra 200 feet, .... leave your bikes alone you silly rabbits .... ;D ;D Merry Christmas everybody !! |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Routy on 12/24/10 at 20:50:00 X3 |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/24/10 at 23:42:04 01222A282B22222B3C4E0 wrote:
My Gawd Man! You just Suck the fun RIGHT outta EVerything,.,, |
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Title: Re: oil level in window Post by Oldfeller on 12/25/10 at 12:11:55 Yup, I'm the mean one, Mr. Grinch .... |
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