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Message started by Oldfeller on 09/06/10 at 10:17:30

Title: Side stand oil checking method
Post by Oldfeller on 09/06/10 at 10:17:30

There is a poll attached to this first post.

Please only vote if you are an "overfiller" -- that way we can see how many members are now overfilling intentionally.

================================

This is a good trick, really.

Now if you are afeared of "overfilling" -- do this little drill for me just one time.

Put it on the side stand the way you always leave it when you put it up for the night.

STONE COLD, fill it up until it jest barely peeks into view in the oil fill window ...

.... now ask you wife to come hold it completely upright and keep it there for you.

! gasp !

Aaaaaugh !!

the oil window is completely dark with oil

I am overfilled, drastically !!

.... take a deep breath and trust in the Force, young Jedi

While the wife hold the bike upright, crank it while watching the oil window.

As soon as the bike cranks over the oil level drops to way way below the oil window.

Where did it all go? Into circulation in the oil passages, the transmission, etc. etc.

----------------------------------------------------------

Next thing you need to know is that there is an oil splash shelf in the crankcase right over the top of the oil window that protects the crank from oil down in the sump splashing around during braking, cornering, hills etc.

So, what are the downsides to slightly over filling your bike so you can instantly see if you have "enough oil" just by glancing down at it while it is on the kickstand?

Dunno. Haven't found any yet, personally.
Got some other people helping me look fer them now, so if they exist we will find them.

I do like instant easy visible checks and I do like it that when I can see no oil in the window on the sidestand due to usage I can rock the bike to vertical and verify that I AM NOT LOW ON OIL to Suzuki's methodology.

I have lots of time to get her home and top her on up to my methodology -- you see, I pretty much know I will never run short on oil and kill my engine using my method.

Unfortunately, Suzuki's methodology has killed a lot of engines over the years due to low oil.

There isn't much reserve to Suzuki's method and a long trip (or a little bit of slackness) can run you too low, especially when your bike gets up there in mileage and starts using some oil routinely.

===========================================
===========================================

...... this important test was added after all the oil window wars were over and additional testing hot methods were developed. Do remember to do this to YOUR bike to verify your oil's expansion ratio when very hot.

WARNING NOTICE !!

Out of the window war and related side wars has come an important hot test to perform on your particular bike after you have picked your side stand oil in the window level.

The test is simple, after picking your handlebar alignment and resting condition, put your oil level stone cold where you want it to be for easy visibility.

Then ON A LEVEL SURFACE crank your fresh hot from a ride bike up, get it to a good idling rate (at least 1,000 rpm) and get somebody else to hold it straight upright while you shine a flashlight into the oil window with the bike running at idle.

Ideally, you would like to see an empty window -- but many do not.
If you see more than half a sight glass on this hot run test, then you need to take out some oil !!

You know the window empties completely when you crank it cold, cause you have already done this test with the bike stone cold. What has changed is that your oil went from garage cold to engine hot -- oil expands when hot to the formula 0.0004 / degree F, so for a 300 degree F delta-T you get like a 10-12.0% change in volume.

10-12% is a significant enough change in oil volume for you to do the check again when the engine is full from just running hot.

On my bike I get just under half a window held upright when hot idling when I set the oil level to half a window on the sidestand with everything stone cold. I am lucky, what I see stone cold on the side stand is just about what I see on the hot held vertical test. You likely are not that lucky .....

You can't ASSume this works out this way for you, your garage isn't at the same degree of level as mine (mine isn't perfectly level) and my side stand is slightly bent and I use a sidestand adder magnet on the foot of my side stand and my oil expands like RotSyn expands (your oil likely expands differently).

You have to check your own situation to find out your hot expansion truth.

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you see a full oil window when idling a fully hot engine held bolt upright.

This would put you in danger of splashing oil with your crankshaft. You need a half window or more of oil clearance to the crank splash shelf with your worst cast oil expansion due to hot engine temperatures -- a full window of clearance is of course the "optimum desired" amount but many do not get this on the hot test.

Now if this last bit seems out of kilter and "huh?" to you, it is because it was developed at the end of the thread that followed the thread that followed this one -- read your homework and it will make perfect sense to you

Title: Re: OVERFILLING--Only vote if you are an
Post by Ed L. on 09/06/10 at 18:26:38

Been "overfilling" my '02 for years. If you can just see the oil in the site glass while the bike is running and on the kick stand it's just right. We all know what happens when you really overfill the crankcase ;)

Title: Re: OVERFILLING--Only vote if you are an
Post by Oldfeller on 09/06/10 at 20:40:01

Ed goes a degree past the rest of us because he has a big oil cooler set up on his bike that requires the oil level to be set with the engine running (that cooler holds a lot of oil that only goes up into the cooler when the engine is running).

I can attest when Ed's bike goes too far on the oil level his oil pukes out the head tube and into the air box and the bike become a major skeeter fogger and free oil flies out of the air box all over everything.

Including the bikes following him ;D

Title: Re: OVERFILLING--Only vote if you are an
Post by Routy on 09/06/10 at 22:24:45

When I got my bike 1 1/2 yrs ago, first thing I noticed no dipstick. Then I found the little window, and noticed the level near the top line,....and that was on the side stand, which I thought was normal.
Then I learned the God awful correct way to check the oil.
Long story short, I learned that the guy I bought my bike from, may not have known the correct way to check the oil, but he wasn't stupid !
So after feeling it out for a long while, I now run the oil anywhere between the 2 lines, and on the side stand. And it don't leak or burn 1 drop !

Title: Re: OVERFILLING--Only vote if you are an
Post by Phelonius on 09/11/10 at 11:09:01

A sidecar keeps the bike level while checking the oil. Put one on and you will never again have the problem. You merely stand on your head to check the oil.

or cheat and use a mirror

Phelonius

Title: Re: OVERFILLING--Only vote if you are an
Post by Oldfeller on 09/12/10 at 02:13:15

Routy,

If I am going on a long trip and do not want to carry a spare quart with me to top off with I will do like you do -- put it midway in the window when on the side stand.

I knew by the time I got back home I'd be right again, or else maybe even have to add a smidgen.

But I also knew that at NO TIME was I ever going to be low on oil compared to the Suzuki method (and my bike was never at risk).

;D ;D ;D

Yup, ya gotta intentionally do some things like this once you get up there in mileage into the oil using stages of things ...

Title: Re: OVERFILLING--Only vote if you are an
Post by Boofer on 09/15/10 at 22:00:52

OF,
I went by the rules and kept my oil between the lines when I first got my bike and ran $6.00/qt oil. It was synthetic and used some when I ran superslab a lot. Now I use Rotella Dino and can't get it to use any more than about 2 ounces in 1000 miles. I read somebody recommended using a mirror, so I have a mechanic's mirror layng on a shelf where I park. I always lock my forks, so I just put my long handled mirror by the sight glass and give a jerk on the bars till it just about balances. If it is from 1/2 or above in the window in a cold engine I unlock the forks, kick the tires and fire her up. I fill it to the top of the window standing up straight during oil change. No problems and airbox is clean, but tube will put out about tablespoon of gunk at oil change.

Title: Re: OVERFILLING--Only vote if you are an
Post by Oldfeller on 09/15/10 at 22:56:45

Boofer,

When your bike is new like and uses no oil, you can follow the Suzuki rules fairly easily (I did back then too).

When you get up into the steady small consumption mileage zone and are using a part of a quart every now and again (especially when taking a trip of any distance) -- I betcha you'll hit a spot where you might say to yourself ....

"Durn, I let ol' Betsy get pretty low on that one -- wonder if I might of hurt her or something running her that low on oil"?

That's when you'll remember this trick. It is a right good trick for a slightly older Savage engine what uses a sip or two of the slippery stuff between them oil changes.

Title: Re: OVERFILLING--Only vote if you are an
Post by Demin on 09/16/10 at 04:56:48

OOPS.Posted my vote wrong,duh.After reading this I am now "overfilling" it.I have the dreaded plug/cap leak and it seems like everytime I ride it hard,I'm out of oil.I was in a jam this weekend,and used Rotella 15w40 in it too.We'll see how that works.I usually run Bel-Ray 20w50.
NO NOT ANOTHER OIL DEBATE! ;D

Title: Re: OVERFILLING--Only vote if you are an
Post by Oldfeller on 09/16/10 at 16:24:37

Go up to the poll notation at the top of the page on the post you voted on and delete your vote and on a later post recast it correctly. You can correct your vote for like two days if you screw up on one of these polls, you just have to do it from the post you cast it on.

BTW, this feature still only lets you vote once, but you can fix a goof.

Also, we do oil wars in Rubber Side Down, not in the Tech Section -- too messy.

Title: Re: OVERFILLING--Only vote if you are an
Post by Charon on 09/18/10 at 09:49:46

I didn't vote, because I don't overfill. But I would like to have some way to see the results.

I check the oil in the approved Suzuki manner. I take hold of the throttle and front brake (so the bike cannot roll) with my right hand, then pull the bike toward me until it seems balanced. Given adequate ambient light, I can then see the window with little difficulty, though bending over a little helps.

I used to have a Honda Twinstar, which has a dipstick instead of the little window. It wasn't any easier with the dipstick, because the bike still had to be held "level" for the check. You had to remove and wipe the dipstick, level the bike, insert and remove the dipstick while holding the bike level, then read the results.

Title: Re: OVERFILLING--Only vote if you are an
Post by Oldfeller on 09/18/10 at 11:04:58

Poll now includes a neutral light so you can vote and then see the results

Title: Re: OVERFILLING--Only vote if you are an
Post by BuckHMCC on 09/25/10 at 19:37:10

Voted 'neutral' to see the results. I like easy. I'm converting to the overfill-to-bottom-of-sight-glass-on-sidestand sect. Is there a baptism involved?

Title: Re: OVERFILLING--Only vote if you are an
Post by J2 on 09/29/10 at 07:29:22

OK. I did the Suzuki thing when changing oil for the first time on a bike with 2200 miles on it. The book said 2.1 quarts in when you are changing the filter. I thought 2 quarts would probably do it. It did, and immediately after putting the oil in and idling for a bit, the sight gauge showed between 2/3 and 3/4 of the way to the top line, measured while my trembling wife was holding Suzy vertical. Then I took it for a ride. When I came back, the sight glass showed all but a little bit completely full, that is ... over the top line, when measured vertical. I drained it for about a half hour when making the change, but I guess there was either oil in there somewhere, or that sight glass and the manual are completely bogus. Lil Suzy doesn't seem to be throwing any oil. I dunno. I never intentionally put too much oil into an engine, but in the case of the S40, I am not sure how much is too much. Any good intel on what happened here?

Title: Re: OVERFILLING--Only vote if you are an
Post by Wake51 on 09/30/10 at 11:30:56

If I want to use the overfill methodology, do I do as follows?

Place bike on kickstand on level ground.
Turn handlebars to left
Fill until I see oil in the view port.

Do I stop filling immediately as I see oil in the port while on the stand? Just curious how much oil I want 'peeking' out.

Title: Re: OVERFILLING--Only vote if you are an
Post by BurnPgh on 09/30/10 at 11:49:09

just enough to notice. Stop filling when you seen the oil peek up at the bottom of the window

Title: Re: OVERFILLING--Only vote if you are an
Post by Oldfeller on 11/01/10 at 03:55:26

J2, oil expands like 10-12% from cold to hot -- that explains your window change. I always check mine cold for that very reason.

====================================

This topic generated an "oil window war" because of a newbie's innocent question.

The points raised are fairly interesting and you folks are the expert witnesses because you have the first hand knowledge that some of these debaters lack.

Have fun (assuming the war is still going on when you get here)

The very first Oil Window Level War

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1288398790

;D

and here is the subsequent Oil Change Method War that came from that one.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1289178835

enjoy !!

===========================================
===========================================

WARNING NOTICE !!

Out of the window war and related side wars has come an important hot test to perform on your particular bike after you have picked your side stand oil in the window level.

The hot test is simple and only has to be done once, after picking your handlebar alignment and resting condition, put your oil level stone cold where you want it to be for easy side stand walk up visibility. Then perform the hot test to assure yourself that this side stand oil level is completely safe after your oil is all hot and expanded.

The hot test:

ON A LEVEL SURFACE crank your fresh hot from a ride bike up, get it to a good idling rate (at least 1,000 rpm) and get somebody else to hold it straight upright while you shine a flashlight into the oil window with the bike running at idle.

Ideally, you would like to see an empty window -- but many do not.
If you see more than half a sight glass on this hot run test, then you need to take out some oil !!

You know the window empties completely when you crank it cold, cause you have already done this test with the bike stone cold. What has changed is that your oil went from garage cold to engine hot -- oil expands when hot to the formula 0.0004 / degree F, so for a 250-300 degree F delta-T you get like a 10-12.0% change in volume.

10-12% is a significant enough change in oil volume for you to do the check again when the engine is full from hard running hot.

On my bike I get just under half a window held upright when hot idling when I set the oil level to half a window on the sidestand with everything stone cold. I am lucky, what I see stone cold on the side stand is just about what I see on the hot held vertical test. You likely are not that lucky .....

You can't ASSume this hot check oil level works out this way for you, your garage isn't at the same degree of level as mine (mine isn't perfectly level) and my side stand is slightly bent and I use a sidestand adder magnet on the foot of my side stand and my oil expands like RotSyn expands (your oil likely expands slightly differently).

You have to check your own situation to find out what your hot expansion truth really is.

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you see a full oil window when idling a fully hot engine held bolt upright.

This would put you in danger of splashing oil with your crankshaft. You need a half window or more of oil clearance to the crank splash shelf with your worst cast oil expansion due to hot engine temperatures -- a full window of clearance is of course the "optimum desired" amount of clearance but many do not get this optimum level on the hot test due to oil expansion.

Title: Re: Side stand oil checking method
Post by Oldfeller on 11/24/10 at 22:46:50

http://looney.goldenagecartoons.com/tv/rrshow/rrunn1.jpg
So your Savage fell over on your head while you were checking your oil window level
while trying to hold your bike all perfectly vertical and perfectly still .....

Silly Coyote, you should try the List Side Stand check method.
It is much easier to do and is just as "rational" as the Suzuki method

Title: Re: Side stand oil checking method
Post by Oldfeller on 11/29/10 at 11:37:48

From the the folks at the endless oil window war, we have a requested data check. Eyeball the bottom of your air box for any increase in the amount of oil present. Ditto for the dump tube (the one you open up when you change your oil).

Report what you find here on this thread -- I'm curious too.

Title: Re: Side stand oil checking method
Post by verslagen1 on 12/17/10 at 20:24:32

When I fill to the top line using the vertical method, the extra oil will end up in my airbox.

I have a big rear wheel and 11" shocks.

I have found that if I put a brick under the kickstand I can fill to the bottom line. When held vertical, the oil level is dead center.

Title: Re: Side stand oil checking method
Post by Oldfeller on 12/17/10 at 22:23:55

So your entire engine is tilted so strongly "forwards" due to your mods to the point you get oil in your air box using the vertical method? Wow -- not a typical condition, but wow.

Interesting -- have you ever done the hot check just for the shits and giggles of it just to see what happens? Oil expansion for you may be worth a lookie-see since you apparently live in a marginal condition even using the vertical method.

Thought for you -- your "forwards tilted" condition gets replicated on normal tired and shocked bikes when we go downhill at a decent slant. For us it is momentary, for you it is continuous .... hit the brakes and both conditions will get worse as the oil sloshes forward in the sump.

Title: Re: Side stand oil checking method
Post by verslagen1 on 12/17/10 at 22:54:32

The angle is only 1° more, hardly think it makes a difference.
1/2" longer shocks, 1/2" bigger wheel over 58" wheelbase.
And that's before I sit on it. :o I'll have to check that.
With my shocks, I may sit differently.

Title: Re: Side stand oil checking method
Post by mmg123 on 01/12/11 at 23:20:06

Oldfeller I have a 86 model.

I check my oil with the bike cold on side stand no oil visable in the window glass.
Crank it up get it hot get my wife to hold it upright i am lucky have very flat and level parking space. Check in the glass and see the oil flowing nicely on the top mark.

Am i doing it right is that the correct level.

Title: Re: Side stand oil checking method
Post by Oldfeller on 01/13/11 at 08:47:15

mmg123,

Let me tell you back what I think you are saying (because I am confused, mostly).

You perform a cold side stand check and see no oil at all in the window.

You perform a hot check and see a window full of oil (and we are talking the real pool -- full solid pool, not just what is running down the window).

If this is right, you have a problem.

Scenario A

When you see "no oil" on the sidestand it is really full up past the top of the window and, being solid looks like "no oil". This isn't very likely, since you would have caught that one, so scratch this scenario.

Scenario B

Your oil is frothing or "bulking up" in an unusual fashion which is showing up on your hot test as being almost up there in the crank.

If you repeat the hot test and still see oil almost up in the crank, I'd remove some oil and go back to the stock Suzuki check method as your bike/your oil has hot test issues that require it. This one is the more likely of the two scenarios, so if you think this is so take out some oil and go back to the stock check method.

We would like to know what weight and brand of oil you are using as we need to tell others using the same oil there is a potential issue with that brand and type of oil.

:-?

THE HOT TEST HAS PROVEN ITS WORTH AGAIN -- don't jest slam in more oil into your bike without hot testing the effects of your oil brand and weight inside your own personal motorcycle.