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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Has anyone tried this? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1267767908 Message started by JESPOKER4FUN on 03/04/10 at 21:45:08 |
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Title: Has anyone tried this? Post by JESPOKER4FUN on 03/04/10 at 21:45:08 Just read this on a different forum. Sorry I know what you are thinking. Yes I wandered off in search of new ideas. The cure for s-40 or ls650 savages backfiring on decel. is not to change needle or plastic ring or jet kit, The carb has whats called an anti backfire valve, also called decel valve,or cut valve,it is located on side of carb with 3 screws. The problem is the spring in the diaphragm is to stiff, remove diaphragm and cut one full round off spring this will allow diaphragm to open sooner on decel and allow more fuel to motor stopping backfire problems. |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by siriusjoe on 03/04/10 at 22:16:59 1E1107041B1F11066012011A540 wrote:
I don't know if that's true or not, but I do know one thing... The stock S40 carb setup is so lean that the engine simply does not run properly at ANY throttle position, and no "anti backfire valve" adjustment will fix that. The air screw adjustment helps the decel backfire quite a bit, but even at 3 turns it's still too lean, and it doesn't address the mid-range or top end issues at all. I just got a Dyna muffler from Ebay and I'm expecting a jet kit from Lancer shortly. Joe |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by dasch on 03/05/10 at 03:14:06 transient enrichement valve... some here (me included) blame that thing for some other stuff too. Idea seems valid in theory. |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by rich015 on 03/07/10 at 01:04:19 I'm really curious about this. Anyone else? Lancer???? |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/07/10 at 06:37:31 I could stand some education on this. |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by thumperclone on 03/07/10 at 07:03:33 TEV just a guess part of the"choke" |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by dasch on 03/07/10 at 09:42:07 Found it someplace online, it eliminates backfire during sudden deceleration - engine braking. |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/07/10 at 09:44:36 Based on how mine used to buck & snort, Id say it is not just real god at doing its job. |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by verslagen1 on 03/07/10 at 09:56:01 Only thing I've seen on this was to clean it out if you have troubles. |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by markbacon on 03/07/10 at 15:51:19 It's definitely worth pulling the diaphragm cover from the side of the carb and inspecting. It gets ignored for long periods and may be difficult to get off - I had to remove the carb and use an impact driver the first time. The diaphragm must be clean and have NO cracks or holes. If it can't hold a vacuum, it cant work. The plunger attached to the diaphragm needs to perform reasonably well as an on/off valve for the enrichment circuit - so it should be clean and show no more than mild signs of wear. The cover has a very small drilling to connect the vacuum side of the diaphragm to the engine side of the carb throat. This has to be as small as possible to damp out pressure pulsing, but that makes it prone to blockage. Don't use wire or anything hard to clean it - I use copious blasts of CRC carb cleaner. If when you took it apart it was pretty ugly, after reassembly you may have to re-tune your idle circuit/air screw as this may have been set wrong to compensate for the enrichment circuit not working properly. The suggestion about redcing the diaphragm spring tension might be worth considering, but I think all that'll do is shift the point of snap crackle and pop to a lower rev range. I had an old Ducati Pantah for years and to try and keep the *%#$#* Dellorto's in tune I spent a fair bit of time riding around with vacuum guages taped to the tank. That showed there's three basic states happening in the carb:
At idle the throttle's barely open and the idle circuit controls mixture strength. There's big pressure-pulsing in the carb making the air pass back and forth through the throttle, so gas is sucked twice and a correctly tuned idle circuit actually delivers a "lean" amount of gas for each suck. During throttle-on there's lower vacuum and reduced pressure pulsing at the throttle, and the idle circuit is less important because other jets/circuits come into play. During throttle-off the throttle's barely open and the idle circuit is again the major player. But now, while there's high vacuum at the throttle, there's little pressure pulsing and gas only gets sucked once. A correctly tuned idle circuit will be delivering a hugely lean mixture until revs drop back close to idle. Hence the enrichment circuit - which gets pulled open by the high vacuumof throttle-off and closes again when revs drop closer to the point where the idle state returns. Softening the diaphragm spring will keep the enrichment circuit open longer, but there's a risk the circuit may be held open when you don't want it. |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by dasch on 03/07/10 at 17:04:50 Thank you. This was quite helpful. Nobody really even mentions that thing. Turns out it's rather important and can cause problems. |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by LANCER on 03/07/10 at 17:21:23 Mark, excellent detailed info on the functional steps involved. This valve is connected to several parts of the carb; the engine side of the carb throat as mentioned; the choke/enricher system; the filter side of the carb intake and the pilot circuit of course. As mentioned, the very tiny passageway from the under the 3 screw cover but outside of the diaphragm, is very easily clogged and will cause problems. If you are one of those who do their own carb work then I suggest you invest in a carb tool that is about 8-10 various sized cleaner wires. The set is less than $10 and is invaluable when needing to clean out clogged passageways. The wires have a bit of a rough surface which aides the cleaning process. It is sort of like a tiny round file. I have never cut the spring so cannot comment on the effect of that mod, but assuming the carb is clean throughout and functioning normally, I find it much easier to cure the backfire issues with adjusting the pilot screw and/or rejetting as well. Do it correctly and the backfiring WILL STOP. |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by Digger on 03/07/10 at 20:11:18 616C636E687F3F3A0D0 wrote:
Lancer, You mean like one of these: K&L Carb Cleaner Wire Set (http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/5/18/182/10115/ITEM/K-L-Carb-Cleaner-Wire-Set.aspx)? I've got one but haven't used it yet. I'm sorta worried it will hog out the jets. |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by miker on 03/08/10 at 04:52:19 You can pick that tool up at any welding or plumbing supply house. They will call it a "torch tip cleaner", and it may cost less than a carb cleaner. |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by Charon on 03/08/10 at 13:34:05 Most of the instructions I have seen for cleaning carburetors say you should not use wires to clean jets, because the wires are harder than the jets and can damage them. I have seen it suggested that you use nylon guitar strings instead. If you are (or know) a fisherman, you can use monofilament fishing line in whatever size seems appropriate. |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by Digger on 03/08/10 at 19:07:00 I've not done it myself, but folks talk of cleaning really tiny jets (like pilot jets) using bits of copper wire culled from a stranded conductor. |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? (((((decel valve))))) Post by earlytimz on 05/30/10 at 14:48:18 Well I know this is a somewhat dated thread, but I wanted to share my experience with the decel valve. -Just in case it could help someone searching later... I was getting a bad stumble after closing the throttle. I've heard someone else describe this perfectly somewhere... Basically, the engine would rev up without a problem, but when I closed the throttle it would stumble down below the idle speed and sometimes even die. If it didn't die, it would soon catch back up to idle speed and be fine. I was also experiencing some erratic idle after a good hard run, then sitting at a light type of scenario. It seemed once the engine was all hot and bothered, she'd have trouble breathing... At first I didn't think the problems were related, but they were. Also was getting decel backfires. You know, the Grrrrr, grumble grumble, POW, grrrrrrr, POW POW.... type of decel pops... (you should hear me do it in person!!) I read some about the decel valve & decided it was worth a shot. It's easy to get to & remove. All I did was remove it, shot a good bit of Brakleen into the orifices, both the carb side & cap side, hit 'em with compressed air, cleaned & inspected the diaphram, & reassembled. My idle issues are gone!! I still have the decel POW, but not as bad. I honestly think that's a muffler to headerpipe leak, which will get attention soon... Maybe... The moral of the story: DO NOT OVERLOOK THE DECEL VALVE |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by LANCER on 05/31/10 at 04:22:01 6D404E4E4C5B290 wrote:
Lancer, You mean like one of these: K&L Carb Cleaner Wire Set (http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/5/18/182/10115/ITEM/K-L-Carb-Cleaner-Wire-Set.aspx)? I've got one but haven't used it yet. I'm sorta worried it will hog out the jets.[/quote] Yes, that is the tool I use. The wire used in it is stiff enough to push into the small holes without bending which usually happens with ordinary wire culled from "whatever", and I really got tired and frustrated with that so spent the few $$ for the tool.......IT IS WORTH IT ! If you are not heavy handed and just take your time with the carb, test/check for the correct size you need for any given hole/passageway and then work it in/out to break up the carbon build up inside the holes. Follow up with a good spray of cleaner and compressed air. That will take care of the clogged passages. |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by ralfyguy on 05/31/10 at 20:08:59 What's the decel valve? |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by earlytimz on 05/31/10 at 20:55:45 Really? Transient Enrichment Valve (decel valve in redneck terms) Refer to post #9 by markbacon |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by John_D FSO on 06/01/10 at 11:38:59 3E333C3137206065520 wrote:
Lancer, You mean like one of these: K&L Carb Cleaner Wire Set (http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/5/18/182/10115/ITEM/K-L-Carb-Cleaner-Wire-Set.aspx)? I've got one but haven't used it yet. I'm sorta worried it will hog out the jets.[/quote] Yes, that is the tool I use. The wire used in it is stiff enough to push into the small holes without bending which usually happens with ordinary wire culled from "whatever", and I really got tired and frustrated with that so spent the few $$ for the tool.......IT IS WORTH IT ! If you are not heavy handed and just take your time with the carb, test/check for the correct size you need for any given hole/passageway and then work it in/out to break up the carbon build up inside the holes. Follow up with a good spray of cleaner and compressed air. That will take care of the clogged passages. [/quote] Cool, looks like an oxy/acetylene torch cleaning kit, which would probably work also. :-? |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by ratz on 06/01/10 at 17:19:19 FWIW,I've used a torch tip cleaner set for years on carburetors,then about a year ago I bought a carb set on a whim.I haven't found any difference to speak of,except you can go to anywhere that sells welding supplies and get a torch set. |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by Digger on 06/19/10 at 20:07:57 333E313C3A2D6D685F0 wrote:
Lancer, You mean like one of these: K&L Carb Cleaner Wire Set (http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/5/18/182/10115/ITEM/K-L-Carb-Cleaner-Wire-Set.aspx)? I've got one but haven't used it yet. I'm sorta worried it will hog out the jets.[/quote] Yes, that is the tool I use. The wire used in it is stiff enough to push into the small holes without bending which usually happens with ordinary wire culled from "whatever", and I really got tired and frustrated with that so spent the few $$ for the tool.......IT IS WORTH IT ! If you are not heavy handed and just take your time with the carb, test/check for the correct size you need for any given hole/passageway and then work it in/out to break up the carbon build up inside the holes. Follow up with a good spray of cleaner and compressed air. That will take care of the clogged passages. [/quote] Thanks....now that I've read about the technique from the Carb Master, maybe I'll now not be afraid to use that carb jet cleaning tool that's been sitting in my tool drawer for over a year. |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? (((((decel valve))))) Post by Albert Verdugo on 03/14/15 at 18:20:13 3531223C2924393D2A500 wrote:
I had this problem, and change the petcock for the raptor's, My bike now doesn't shut down but decelerates quite a bit, almost to a stop. Maybe I should try your recomendation. ;) |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by mechanikhan on 03/18/15 at 17:30:20 Reposting from Rubber Side Down! / Re: "Thoughts on pops, backfires during decel" on: 07/17/13 I got rid of 95% of the backfiring by changing the spring in the TEV to a shorter spring. The length of the stock spring has two negative effects on the valve's operation. Having measured the pocket that the spring resides in, I came to the following conclusions: 1. There was not much room for the diaphram to move or open during the high vacuum present at full throttle, thus limiting the enriching effect the valve is supposed to provide. 2. The stock spring was stronger than necessary and was closing the valve too abruptly during the low vacuum present at deceleration, thus the backfire. Instead of cutting the stock spring, I chose to find a shorter one. I'm satisfied with the first spring I chose, a #90 spring I bought at Ace Hardware. Listed below are the dimensions of both springs: Stock #90 Free length 1.400 in. 0.715 in. Wire Diameter 0.032 in. 0.035 in. Outside Diameter 0.483 in. 0.597 in. My bike is a 2002 model with just under 4000 miles. I installed the #90 spring at around 2800 miles. The bike is stock with one exception: a previous owner drilled out the baffle. The bike is much more pleasant to ride, and I would recommend this modification before I changed anything else. |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by Albert Verdugo on 03/29/15 at 20:39:23 I think I will take your advice! 41554649444E54757554270 wrote:
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by Suzukisavvy on 03/31/15 at 07:08:03 My bike doesnt backfire except when you shut it off and the last charge is thrown into the exaust. always comes with a laugh and a slap on the ass afterwards haha. |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by Albert Verdugo on 04/17/15 at 16:05:51 I just Repacked my Jardine pipe and the backfiring was reduced almost totally Pipe did not have packing material when I bought it Now I am very happy! |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 04/17/15 at 18:28:32 I must be the odd man out, I happen to like the backfiring. Seems to fit right in with the character of the bike (at least in cafe racer form). |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by Albert Verdugo on 05/04/15 at 00:02:08 Backfire is cool but ankward sometimes. By the way, now mi pipe is quieter in idle, 98 dB after and 96 dB before, but it is louder when reving, from 109 dB it when up to 112 dB. But the sound change in a good way, pleasant to the ears |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/04/15 at 09:46:08 6B4648484A5D2F0 wrote:
It just seems Wrong to take advantage of a railroad worker who is already having a bad day. |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by mechanikhan on 05/04/15 at 16:45:54 Jespoker4fun, have you tried the shorter spring yet? Just curious. |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by HovisPresley on 05/04/15 at 17:09:45 "It just seems Wrong to take advantage of a railroad worker who is already having a bad day." ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/04/15 at 20:47:43 That is kinda funny, innit? |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by Dave on 05/05/15 at 03:06:34 706F696E73744575457D6F63281A0 wrote:
Not the first couple of times I read it. :-? On the third time (second day), I finally made the connection. ;D |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/05/15 at 08:24:57 Pardon me, sir, but do you have a match? No, but I do have a striking similarity. |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by Bubba on 05/05/15 at 09:37:36 I tried the enrichment valve a while back...even got the original poster to send me a spare spring he had from an outboard motor or something... anyway, it didn't work out for me...the spring he sent (I think it was just a softer spring) made my bike smoke and run like a diesel...took it right out... keep in mind that I'm at 1 mile elevation so that probably has something to do with it... |
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Title: Re: Has anyone tried this? Post by Kris01 on 05/05/15 at 18:07:04 JOG, you just ain't right! ;D Hope all is well with you. ;) |
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