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Message started by Oldfeller on 11/09/09 at 15:16:22

Title: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by Oldfeller on 11/09/09 at 15:16:22

Bike is an '02 with opened up stock airbox, polyfiber & gear oil air filter in the stock steel air filter frame, Dyna muffler exhaust, platinum spark plug, stock displacement, stock timing, stock belt setup with a just added Lancer Stage 2 cam.  

This is a report on stock cam vs Stage 2 cam, unless somebody who has a Stage 1 chimes in we will not get any comparison between Stage 1 and Stage 2.

Ok, ask your questions.   Try to frame your questions in a manner that allows a clear comparison between a stock cam and the new Lancer Stage 2 cam.

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/09/09 at 20:38:35

Do you have a tach? If so, can you point to an RPM range where the performance is clearly better? Did it change your 0 to 60 time? How much? Do the girls think youre sexier now? Or would that even be possible???

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by Oldfeller on 11/10/09 at 03:47:48

No tach, I had a digital ENT but I sold it a few years back after getting the second replacement (the early ones failed a lot).  

I would estimate from speed in gear that I have picked up use of an additional 30-40% of the higher rpm ranges that used to be flat and useless before.

Let's see, you have a Stage 1 cam don't you Justin?  I remember your initial ride report and some of your early comments about the performance increase being about as much as putting on the sporty exhaust.

This is more than that, engine pulls strong right on up through and past the original RPM range by a good bit.  Hitting it strong in all the gears has you shifting out of third into 4th at 65 mph, and you never shift out of 4th before hitting strong speed wobble at 90 mph (my back end bash up still has a wobble up at that speed).  And it gets there fast.  My 0-60 time is less time than it takes you to do the 1-2-3 shift at full throttle now.


Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by ralfyguy on 11/10/09 at 04:35:39

How is the idle now? Does it behave like a 2-stroke or is it as smooth as before? And how about the fuel economy, or maybe this is too early to say.

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by Oldfeller on 11/10/09 at 05:47:46

Idle is unaffected, there is no lumpy idle.  Off idle is not flat or staggering, it simply races on up into the higher rpm ranges.  There is no flat spot any more as you speed up, there isn't time for a flat spot -- it's that quick.

Gas mileage has got to be affected, you are getting the extra energy from somewhere.   So far pipe is only the slightest bit bluer, but I suspect that will deepen over time.  I have a set of Lancer jets, some rejetting may be required but that would only more adversely affect the gas mileage.

I suspect durability will be adversely affected over time as well, I think you can get up to red line now and you spend more time at higher rpms during normal getting around town.

I am on my second oil change now, still wondering why Web Cam wants you to use dino oil instead of synthetic oil.

Lancer -- do you know why Web Cam tells you to only use dino oil?  I think we need to understand why as it may be some car thing instead of a bike thing (I hope, anyway).

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by LANCER on 11/10/09 at 07:26:38

You know, I have never asked them about the oil question; I have always used synthetic most of the time.
I will call and ask.

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by bill67 on 11/10/09 at 08:20:26

 How much different is the high gear roll on from 40 mph to 70 mph?

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by Oldfeller on 11/10/09 at 09:16:25

Bill, most of it takes place in third gear, You shift into fourth and as soon as the gas is back on you have passed 70.  

Kinda hard to split that up.

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by bill67 on 11/10/09 at 09:22:25

Whats it like in high gear?

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by LANCER on 11/10/09 at 11:07:38

I just got off the phone with Webcam regarding the use of conventional oil vs synthetic.  They say they recommend the use of Valvoline Racing oil or Kendal because it sticks to the parts better than the synthetic, which they say tends to be thinner and does not coat & stick to the parts as well.

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by Oldfeller on 11/10/09 at 11:37:47

Bill, 5th gear isn't really needed, it now falls into a true overdrive category.  It is only 400-500 rpm off of fourth and fourth is now good to over 90 mph so 5th becomes superfluous.

If I was cruising on the flat, I guess I'd use it as overdrive to save gas.  If I was in the mountains I would not use it because I want my rev's up to use for engine braking if needed.  I would stay in 4th or 3rd for most mountain riding, likely dropping down to 3rd and 2nd for the real twisties.

============

Lancer, their main concern is racing, then.  They are talking about racing dino oils, right?  They did not mention spauling or pitting or anything having to do with the weld up and synthetics did they?

I guess I can stand using Rotella T all the time on a shorter change interval.  But when a manufacturer states a restriction you kinda want to know why, so I guess we know what they are willing to tell us.

Plus, I bet Kendal and Valvoline racing oils were ZDDP rich with other heavy abuse additives to boot.

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by nicholas on 11/10/09 at 11:41:37

WOW - that is strange
did they back up this recommendation with any hard data ?

Why then would Porche,Audi,Ferrari, ect recommend syn oil for all their engines ?

Could it be a stage 2 cam is beyond their physics ?

Come on does not "stick" to engine parts? - syn oil is the same viscosity as dino oil - just go and read any oil manufactures tech sheets.

wow - just wow ? ::)

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by Oldfeller on 11/10/09 at 11:57:53

Web Cam's truth may be more pragmatic.  They get a certain number of complaints and returns associated with their weld up & regrind process -- it is the nature of the beast and is true for any cam business.  

If they collect the "oil type used" as part of the return process it would not take them very long to identify synthetics as giving relatively more returns than Kendal and Valvoline racing oil -- ergo which would you recommend for use with your product?

They may not know why -- it is what it is.   It does sound somewhat car based though, as Kendal and Valvoline are more of a popular car oil than a bike oil.

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by nicholas on 11/10/09 at 12:23:39

"sticking" - just does not hold any meaning for me -
it does not really make sense - instead of relying on cunsumer compaints and used oil samples -
any company should do their own testing - and verify their claims with raw data -

samples from consumers can easily be taken improperly - or even verified improperly.

Rotating parts, pressure, and build quality have nothing to do with the flowablity/pupability of synthetics vs dino oil. They flow the same - only synthetics have lower/higher pour and flash points.

Back up the recommendation of a dino oil over a superior syn oil.

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by nicholas on 11/10/09 at 12:26:47

This might make more sense if we were talking about automotive cams - where syn auto oils have less zinc, and dino's tend to have a bit more.
But all motor oils syn or dino have plenty of zinc.


Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by bill67 on 11/10/09 at 12:36:42

  Sounds to me that cam is no good at all to cruise down the highway.

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by EJID on 11/10/09 at 12:55:44


242F2A2A7071460 wrote:
  Sounds to me that cam is no good at all to cruise down the highway.


I think if you are going through all the work to install a "Stage 2" cam, you're not likely planning on just "cruising down the highway."  ;D

I think the owners of a Stage 2 cam are more likely to be the "wickers" among us.  8-)

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by bill67 on 11/10/09 at 13:49:02

  At what speed can you use 5th gear.

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by Oldfeller on 11/10/09 at 14:57:06

Nicolas, zinc-phosphorus compounds (alias ZDDP) do differ strongly in modern car oils from modern car racing oils.  

Car oils are commonly less than 8 ppm (down to five and six with the e-star stuff) whereas racing car oils can have 10-15 ppm which is more in line with what flat tappet bike and car cams need.  Racing car oil costs a lot per quart, but carry a significantly greater load of heavy load additives.

Contrast the older diesel standard, the CI-4 oils -- even the cheapest oil was required to carry at least 15 ppm of ZDDP.  You can still buy the stuff for the older diesel engines that have no sulfur or particulate requirements -- but only in 55 gallon drums.

Modern diesel oils (CJ-4) are required to carry over 10 ppms of ZDDP with greatly reduced sulfur and much higher detergent and surfactant packages to bond, catch and hold particulates for 50,000 plus miles.

These are some of the reasons that Rotella Syn diesel oil carries the JASO certification now, it meets all the requirements of a clutch friendly heavy duty wear additive equipped oil for motorcycle engines.

Now, the question really becomes is the current Rotella T good enough for a Web Stage 2 Cam?   Our vendor has not told us very much except to use Kendal or Valvoline racing oil.  Do these oils embody the real cam oil requirements if looked at technically?

Here is what Valvoline racing has to say:  http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/76

This is good stuff at 14 ppm of ZDDP -- built for abuse all the way.

=============

I'd watch out for Kendal -- their 10w40 product specs out as a modern car oil at less than 10 ppm ZDDP.  Their 20w50 product is more robust, but not up to the levels of Valvoline Racing oil.

http://www.conocophillipslubricants.com/documents/kendall/automotive_engine_oils/Ken%20GT-1%20High%20Performance%20MO%20TDS%20Web.pdf


In short, if you back the requirements back out of the recommended oils, then we are looking for 15 ppm of ZDDP -- unusually high amounts of of the key heavy pressure additives which are only found in specialty racing oils and a very very few motorcycle oils that have the necessary concentrations of ZDDP (Amisol).  If you don't want to spring for the very pricey Amisol oil, buy Valvoline racing oil or a good diesel oil and bump it up a bit with this stuff.

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/Images/L/1678.JPG

If you get a Lancer Cam you need to buy a bottle of this stuff and put a couple of ounces in your normal oil change (and maybe 4 ounces in the start up oil you actually break the cam in with).


==============

Bill, you can shift into 5th gear as soon as 40 mph if you want to lug the engine a bit.  You could roll it up to 90 plus (how much more I can't say as I speed wobble about then).  

Yes Bill, this cam is totally useless to you -- it serves no purpose in your world.  We know that already.

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by BurnPgh on 11/11/09 at 18:18:55

sounds great in my world. Plan to go for lancers carb set up, open exhaust port w/ new head pipe, and 1mm overbore one step at a time. Hope i can still hold onto the bars when im done.

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by LANCER on 11/11/09 at 18:44:30


5760677B45727D150 wrote:
sounds great in my world. Plan to go for lancers carb set up, open exhaust port w/ new head pipe, and 1mm overbore one step at a time. Hope i can still hold onto the bars when im done.


The problem is keeping the front end on the ground when launching out of the hole....it really cuts in to the 0-60 & 1/4 mi. times

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/11/09 at 21:48:06


57747C7E7D74747D6A180 wrote:
No tach, I had a digital ENT but I sold it a few years back after getting the second replacement (the early ones failed a lot).  

I would estimate from speed in gear that I have picked up use of an additional 30-40% of the higher rpm ranges that used to be flat and useless before.

Let's see, you have a Stage 1 cam don't you Justin?  I remember your initial ride report and some of your early comments about the performance increase being about as much as putting on the sporty exhaust.

This is more than that, engine pulls strong right on up through and past the original RPM range by a good bit.  Hitting it strong in all the gears has you shifting out of third into 4th at 65 mph, and you never shift out of 4th before hitting strong speed wobble at 90 mph (my back end bash up still has a wobble up at that speed).  And it gets there fast.  My 0-60 time is less time than it takes you to do the 1-2-3 shift at full throttle now.




Yea, I have the stage 1 & yea, it was about 1/2 or so of the exhaust bump. I wunner what I would have felt had I started with the cam..

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by LANCER on 11/12/09 at 06:30:54

Just some general info about using either one of the performance cams.  With the perf cam installed, if the stock carb is retained then this will liimit some of the cam effect.  The same with the stock header; it has a very limiting 1.3" ID and even with a good muffler it still limits the cams ultimate performance capability.
I do not have dyno specifics, but just as a general observation I would estimate the use of a stock carb and header will limit the stage 1perf cam effect by 40-50%.  The stage 2 cam effect limit could be even more.
Replacing the stock carb with a performance unit and the header with a larger tube (1.5" ID is probably the best size) is needed to get the full benefit of a performance camshaft.
Remember, the whole point of changing the cam profile is to allow more fuel/air into and out of the cylinder, and the stock carb and header are primary limiting factors.  The exhaust ports in the head are also an important factor and when using the stage 2 perf cam they definitely should be worked to improve flow.

The Stage 1 cam profile is designed specifically for improved torque & power in the throttle range where we ride most.  This enhances all the great characteristics that we love in the Savage.
The Stage 2 cam profile is what most would consider to be a street/race cam.  It jacks up the throttle range a bit where the torque & power are max.  This one is for the hot rodder.


I fully understand the realities of affordability, that is exactly why and how I ended up doing these mod's myself, because I could not find what I needed in the market or could not afford to buy new retail stuff.
I found used or discounted parts from ebay mostly and some from members here.  I worked to put parts/kits together from there to make it easier for others wanting to do similar mod's.  

With budgeting in mind, I worked my engine mod's in this order: carb swap, perf cam, larger header, and then head porting.
The reason I did the carb before the cam was that I just happened to find an Edelbrock carb on ebay for REALLY cheap and so it just came first.
Damage to the engine case bottom, which was covered by my insurance  :) and required an complete engine tear down and rebuild, enabled the first perf cam from Webcam to be made and also a slight rebore, with silicone carbide treatment as well :), done by Bore-tech.
At that point I had the stock carb mounted, though it was modified a bit with a Dial-a-jet, drilled slide for quicker response and rejetted.
I later sold it and installed the Edelbrock. The Edelbrock had a needle that was too rich and so the mod'd stock carb went back on after the rebuild until I could get the correct  needle.
After that I started getting requests from other forum members to rebuild Edelbrocks for them, and that started the whole parts thing.

I've gotten off topic here....... the point was that a perf cam is a part of the equation, with a perf carb & header and exhaust ports being the other primary components.  There is a synergistic effect when all come together.

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/12/09 at 08:41:20

Okay, Lancer, I gutted my header, so its just the chrome shell, So, what carb should I have on there? If I could get another 40% of the "Bump" I got when I put that cam in, I think it would lift the wheel on torque alone.
Yonuh says his will,.,even with that long set of forks out there.

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by LANCER on 11/12/09 at 19:05:53


445B5D5A4740714171495B571C2E0 wrote:
Okay, Lancer, I gutted my header, so its just the chrome shell, So, what carb should I have on there? If I could get another 40% of the "Bump" I got when I put that cam in, I think it would lift the wheel on torque alone.
Yonuh says his will,.,even with that long set of forks out there.


Wow, a gutted stock header is way bigger than 1.5" ID.  Why did you do that ?  Was it rusting out or something ?

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by bill67 on 11/12/09 at 20:06:01


1A3931333039393027550 wrote:
Nicolas, zinc-phosphorus compounds (alias ZDDP) do differ strongly in modern car oils from modern car racing oils.  

Car oils are commonly less than 8 ppm (down to five and six with the e-star stuff) whereas racing car oils can have 10-15 ppm which is more in line with what flat tappet bike and car cams need.  Racing car oil costs a lot per quart, but carry a significantly greater load of heavy load additives.

Contrast the older diesel standard, the CI-4 oils -- even the cheapest oil was required to carry at least 15 ppm of ZDDP.  You can still buy the stuff for the older diesel engines that have no sulfur or particulate requirements -- but only in 55 gallon drums.

Modern diesel oils (CJ-4) are required to carry over 10 ppms of ZDDP with greatly reduced sulfur and much higher detergent and surfactant packages to bond, catch and hold particulates for 50,000 plus miles.

These are some of the reasons that Rotella Syn diesel oil carries the JASO certification now, it meets all the requirements of a clutch friendly heavy duty wear additive equipped oil for motorcycle engines.

Now, the question really becomes is the current Rotella T good enough for a Web Stage 2 Cam?   Our vendor has not told us very much except to use Kendal or Valvoline racing oil.  Do these oils embody the real cam oil requirements if looked at technically?

Here is what Valvoline racing has to say:  http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/76

This is good stuff at 14 ppm of ZDDP -- built for abuse all the way.

=============

I'd watch out for Kendal -- their 10w40 product specs out as a modern car oil at less than 10 ppm ZDDP.  Their 20w50 product is more robust, but not up to the levels of Valvoline Racing oil.

http://www.conocophillipslubricants.com/documents/kendall/automotive_engine_oils/Ken%20GT-1%20High%20Performance%20MO%20TDS%20Web.pdf


In short, if you back the requirements back out of the recommended oils, then we are looking for 15 ppm of ZDDP -- unusually high amounts of of the key heavy pressure additives which are only found in specialty racing oils and a very very few motorcycle oils that have the necessary concentrations of ZDDP (Amisol).  If you don't want to spring for the very pricey Amisol oil, buy Valvoline racing oil or a good diesel oil and bump it up a bit with this stuff.

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/Images/L/1678.JPG

If you get a Lancer Cam you need to buy a bottle of this stuff and put a couple of ounces in your normal oil change (and maybe 4 ounces in the start up oil you actually break the cam in with).


==============

Bill, you can shift into 5th gear as soon as 40 mph if you want to lug the engine a bit.  You could roll it up to 90 plus (how much more I can't say as I speed wobble about then).  

Yes Bill, this cam is totally useless to you -- it serves no purpose in your world.  We know that already.

    Or you can use Klotz racing oil and no additives needed.

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by BurnPgh on 11/12/09 at 20:43:29

HA! You're great bill. I knew there was a peice of this thread missing.

Serious question though. Im not sure how to word this exactly....Im assuming the stage 2 cam "broadens" the torque range as opposed to simply moving it further up in the rpm range, correct? That seems to be what I gather but it's a bit ambiguous. I know thats not worded very well but I hope you get the point.

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/13/09 at 09:25:36


79747B7670672722150 wrote:
[quote author=445B5D5A4740714171495B571C2E0 link=1257808582/15#23 date=1258044080]Okay, Lancer, I gutted my header, so its just the chrome shell, So, what carb should I have on there? If I could get another 40% of the "Bump" I got when I put that cam in, I think it would lift the wheel on torque alone.
Yonuh says his will,.,even with that long set of forks out there.


Wow, a gutted stock header is way bigger than 1.5" ID.  Why did you do that ?  Was it rusting out or something ?[/quote]



I cant remember Why I started messing with it, but I know I messed up , so I just carefully sliced  the thing up, indexed it so it would all fit back together, pulled the inner pipe out & had it welded back up. Doesnt look bad. The guy TIG'ed it up & charged me ZIP.. It took him about an hour, I helped, fooled around in his shop, man he had some cool stuff in there.. I guess I should post a pic or 2.

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by Oldfeller on 11/13/09 at 12:26:01


Burn, your question is interesting.  You are used to seeing the Savage be primarily (and only) a torque based motor.  The thought of it being a revving hp based motor really doesn't connect very well to your world picture of the bike right now.  I know it didn't for me.

Wanging the bike through the gears is fast, the bike is roaring & noisy.  You are somewhat reminded of a large bore dirtbike as it is all "quick" now, there is no lumpa-lumpa-lumpa to the acceleration any more.

Hell, I used to watch my tank jiggle in time to the big pulses on the stock bike when doing a full throttle acceleration.  There is no time to watch it accelerate now, it is time to shift, shift, shift.

I used to come turn into my neighborhood and accelerate up to 35-40 mph in the space permitted.  I generally get up to 45 when riding the purple people eater taking the same turn.  Now the Savage hits 45-50 in the same turn.

Your Savage can be ridden like you used to, or it can be goosed now and it will have something to give you back for the goosing.


=============

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/Images/L/1678.JPG


Recommendation:  Use a high ZDDP oil.  Buy some Red Line Break-In Additive, add 4 oz. to your first oil charge and 2 ounces to each subsequent oil change until you use the bottle up.  You will be using that high lift cam hard, give it a chance to break in properly.


Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by bill67 on 11/13/09 at 12:34:10


4572756957606F070 wrote:
HA! You're great bill. I knew there was a peice of this thread missing.

Serious question though. Im not sure how to word this exactly....Im assuming the stage 2 cam "broadens" the torque range as opposed to simply moving it further up in the rpm range, correct? That seems to be what I gather but it's a bit ambiguous. I know thats not worded very well but I hope you get the point.

  Anytime you put in a high speed cam you shorten the power band,The widest power band is the stock cam.

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by Oldfeller on 11/13/09 at 12:53:57

This is true, the Stage 2 cam raises hp the most in the upper RPM ranges.  Point is if you shift where the extra power is, then you get the extra power acting over each gear range.  You go quicker, a lot quicker.

Yes, you have to change how you ride the bike -- you have to become a wicker.  This has consequences for choice of oil, maintenance frequency, durability etc etc.

If you want "more" and you don't want to change anything about how you ride the bike, consider a Stage 1 cam or maybe simply doing the rest of the uncork mods and leaving the cam completely alone.

Stage 2 cam makes you change how you ride the bike (UR a full bore wicker now)


=========


Definitions

Wicker (n)  origin circa 1930's, British -- a person who turns the wick (throttle) wide open at all times on a motorcycle, carried over in the 1970s to modern dirtbike, snowmobile or waterski use.  An abrupt full rotation wrist twisting motion is used on a rotary throttle, or an abrupt full thumb plunge is used on a thumb push throttle.

Wick (to, v) refers to aggressively yanking the throttle open on a motorcycle. snowmobile or waterski.   Used to reference other aggressive adjustments of power, volume, etc.

Wick'd  (slang - general use, motorcycle)  Used for reference to aggressive style of riding on a powerful bike.  Not to be confused with "wicked" which pert little girly girls use to refer to various and sundry appearance or behavior related items.



Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by LostArtist on 11/13/09 at 13:44:38

what's a wicker?

Title: Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Post by LANCER on 11/13/09 at 17:12:12


7F5C40477241475A4047330 wrote:
what's a wicker?


A wicker is someone whose right hand is permanently welded in the 3/4 to Wide Open throttle position.   :D

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