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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Oil pumps disengaging due to bad clutch assembly /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1246336685 Message started by Oldfeller on 06/29/09 at 21:38:05 |
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Title: Oil pumps disengaging due to bad clutch assembly Post by Oldfeller on 06/29/09 at 21:38:05 Stimpy and I have discovered what may be a previous owner clutch re-assembly related symptom that can be fairly easily checked out when doing a Verslagen cam chain tensioner protrusion check. If you are able to move your oil pump gear "forwards" on the shaft until the gearing disengages then you need to stop and fix the issue before proceeding. You may find as I did that a previous clutch repair job resulted in the flanged gear on the back of the clutch basket being put in incorrectly (backwards & possibly missing the pin too). Strange, but it happens as the pin is completely invisible behind the clutch basket and it falls out and rolls into the rabbit holes that go to the center of the cases .... ========================== Let's start with what started the chain of failure -- the oil pump/clutch basket engagement assembly. The main symptom of this error is a moveable engagement at the oil pump gear, it can move forward on the shaft, disengage from the mating clutch basket gear and free wheel (not catch any drive force from the motor movement). http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/pump1.JPG This means no oil moves even though the engine is spinning at highway speed. Instant death -- this would be sudden and quick the very first time the oil pump disengaged at highway speed. ================= The results of the oil pump disengaging would very very quickly look like this: http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Piston.JPG http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/cam_journal.JPG http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/flat_tappets.JPG Also, the cylinder bore is scored and the cam lobes are shot. Serenity made a good call to go buy him an engine off a wrecked bike as the parts alone to fix this baby would be more than the wrecked bike engine. I am going to go into it deep enough to understand what failed to allow the oil pump to disengage like this. |
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Title: Re: What killed Serenity's motor Post by Stimpy on 06/29/09 at 22:33:46 jiji, looks familiar :D http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5923/parts2j.jpg http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/169/parts1.jpg my old 2006 thread w/similar problem + hi-res pics: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1158030160/0#0 |
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Title: Re: What killed Serenity's motor Post by Oldfeller on 06/30/09 at 03:34:00 (Ha, this will teach me to think or talk before disassembling and actually looking -- I thought the issue was totally in the wear level of the oil pump when it also had some elements of incorrect assembly to it that won't show up for another post or two) ======= Stimpy, what was mis-assembled on your oil pump? We got people pulling their side covers to check their cam chain tensioner every 10,000 miles or so -- I think they should stick out their finger and hook it underneath the oil pump gear and see if they can finagle it to move forward and try to disengage the driving gears. This check should be added to the Verslagen tensioner check drill -- I'll get up with him to see if he can add it. http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/pump1.JPG |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging and killing engines -- n Post by Toymaker on 06/30/09 at 05:06:35 I'll be checking it when I look at the clutch rod. Good Call there Oldfeller. T |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging and killing engines -- n Post by srinath on 06/30/09 at 08:28:23 So a solution would be to put a spring behind it ? spring in front of it ? I dont remember what that part looked like on mine. But its a worthwhile check. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: What killed Serenity's motor Post by PTRider on 06/30/09 at 09:53:35 4A6961636069696077050 wrote:
Which way is the bad movement? Axially? How much movement seems to be OK and how much is too much?...is any movement at all troublesome? |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging and killing engines -- n Post by bill67 on 06/30/09 at 13:52:41 If you don't have back pressure on a engine you will have problems like that. |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging and killing engines -- n Post by Oldfeller on 06/30/09 at 14:18:44 PT, you will have to wait until I split the cases for an analysis of the source of this issue or any idea of how to fix it. Right now the oil pump gear moves out axially on the oil pump shaft, literally until it disengages the mating gear on the clutch basket and the oil pump gear then free wheels, getting no drive action from the clutch gear rotation motion. If I was guessing, I'd hazard a guess at some wear related issue inside the oil pump itself, possibly combined with a loose fastener or two. But that guess would be way premature -- no facts yet, just a death symptom you can finger check for. Bill, I haven't a clue as to the possible association between back pressure on the exhaust system and worn/loose oil pump assemblies. Ya got me, I dunno. |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging and killing engines -- n Post by Yonuh Adisi on 06/30/09 at 14:46:38 5D7E7674777E7E7760120 wrote:
Maybe another possible cause for this is retaining nut on clutch basket backing out letting clutch basket move just enough to let pump gear back out? Just spitballing here, have no clue if that could even happen. |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging and killing engines -- n Post by srinath on 07/01/09 at 08:42:23 OleFeller/Bill If I'm not mistaken, back pressure is the term used for exhaust pressure - a tighter exhaust can - non free flowing one has more back pressure they say. OK so how would that cause these 2 to slide out and get away from one another ... no idea. Yonuh: - The clutch basket retaining nut if it ever comes loose will cause such a ruckus the instant it does - ever bit of the bike's power as well as all of its vibrations and thumping all course through there. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging and killing engines -- n Post by youzguyz on 07/01/09 at 09:07:24 2F0C0406050C0C0512600 wrote:
If the oil pump gear is moving ON the shaft that goes back to the pump, and the shaft itself is not moving, then it looks like it could be missing the circlip that holds the gear in place on the shaft. (Pull up your favorite Micro-fiche site, Item#5 on the Oil Pump Diagram). Without the circlip, maybe the gear can slide far enough out along the shaft to disengage from the drive gear, (or from the pin on the shaft (Item# 3)) but can't slide far enough out to fall off the shaft because the gear bumps the clutch basket. IF the shaft is moving as well as the gear, then you are.. in big doo doo. It would mean the pump is very very loose to the case, or busted. |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging and killing engines -- n Post by Rogue_Cheddar on 07/01/09 at 09:53:16 I know this is cause for concern but my question is how many Savages have actually had this oil pump failure, in the grand scheme of things? I know the cam chain tensioner is well documented for potential failure anywhere after 16000 + miles. I will definitely check mine, but am just curious on whether or not this is an anomaly and not a chronic condition with Savages in general. |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging and killing engines -- n Post by srinath on 07/01/09 at 10:08:59 On a GS500 the oil pump drive gear is on a shaft with a nice pin across it, and there is no more shaft, it ends in the gear - almost. Maybe 1/4 to 1/8th inch. If you lose that pin and its a nice fat one that holds the gear center to the shaft, the gear will move a 1/4 or less and drop off into the bottom of the clucth cover, catch a million things on the way and make a racket, or get propelled out of that cluch case. That is a cheap and easy part to change, if it get powered to the inside that = busted inside cases - dead motor - maybe not, but really really bad. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging and killing engines -- n Post by Oldfeller on 07/01/09 at 12:13:25 I went out and bought the 32mm and 30mm socket so I could pull the clutch basket and the cam chain gear. Once the related mating gearing was removed, the worn oil pump will allow the entire shaft (circlip is sound and in place) to move 0.078" axially. The worn oil pump will allow the gear to tilt 0.032" There is a total of over 0.100" of travel/slop in the gear/circlip/shaft/oil pump assembly. ========= chicken or the egg, which came first? ========= Here comes the chicken and the egg scenario though -- the flanged gear behind the clutch basket was incorrectly oriented. I do not think disengagement of the gearing such as I saw is possible unless the flanged gear was in backwards like it was. Double on the egg side of things -- the flange gear locating pin could not be easily assembled the way the gear was put in place (the pin was completely missing). You can check your oil pump for large amounts of lateral play to keep tabs on its total wear amount, but I DOUBT many of us will have the free wheeling disengagement issue that I saw as it is also due to mis-assembly of components. |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging due to bad user assembly Post by Ed L. on 07/01/09 at 16:36:10 So you are saying that the hidden gear was installed backwards and because of that the retainer pin wasn't or couldn't be installed. This caused the gear to drift out on the shaft and disengage the oil pump drive gear and snap crackle pop, no oil pressure and a lunched motor. There's a moral to this, if you have a part left over you had better figure out where it came from when working on a engine. |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging due to bad user assembly Post by Oldfeller on 07/02/09 at 05:07:29 Ed, the flange gear being installed backwards moved the gear portion of the flange gear out of correct position by over half of the total gear width of engagement to the oil pump. The worn oil pump had enough "drift" to complete the disengagement. There are holes to the inside of the case assembly that are readily available to eat that little pin should it drop free during disassembly. This may have been what happened. I will split the cases looking for the little pin as I am concerned as to its whereabouts. ================== You have to take the clutch basket off to change your clutch plates. Screwing up the orientation of this one part during that relatively straight-forward repair can kill your engine. This is unfortunately true for MANY small components lying about this engine. Ripping something apart should be done slowly and notes taken and permanent sharpie pen reference marks made so correct orientation of parts is maintained upon re-assembly. |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging due to bad user assembly Post by serenity3743 on 07/02/09 at 09:13:29 26073C2F4D630 wrote:
I am the faulty assembler being discussed in this thread. When I put everything back together, I didn't have any parts left over, although a circlip or pin evidently got lost. Having read Oldfeller's findings, it is obvious to me that this incorrect reassembly led to the engine failure. I don't even think there was a problem with the oil pump itself, just that it was not being rotated by the gear. However, I will point out that this is the engine that I rode for 51,000 miles with only scheduled maintenance and a few minor external mechanical repairs. So I'm good at making things last. I was not so good at tearing them apart and putting them back together. But I didn't have the benefit of the pool of wisdom on this website then, either! I still plan to do my own wrenching! :P |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging due to bad user assembly Post by srinath on 07/02/09 at 09:36:34 Oh - you 2 are on either side of me in charlotte. And more ironic - I bought a savage in fayetteville this past St patty's day and parts for my sv1000 the month before in hickory. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging due to bad user assembly Post by serenity3743 on 07/02/09 at 09:53:19 Cool - you're in Charlotte? My daughter lives down there. PM me with your phone number and I'll try to get together with you sometime! .......serenity3743 (Guy) |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging due to bad user assembly Post by Stimpy on 07/02/09 at 12:06:24 Hi all! Stimpy, what was mis-assembled on your oil pump? The problem itself was a series of events that lead to noticeable power loss about a year after buying my 97' w/only 3k miles on it back in 2004 (which was cheap for a reason as I soon found out) ... all was caused mainly by overheating due to unmonitored low oil level and very probably a bad break-in period by uncaring original owner (who I never met or talked to), but the engine never ceased, just lost power. The oil pump problem, it seems, was the same as yours and was working only some of the time, or very inefficiently, as we disassembled the engine to change the stretched timing chain and other parts that were allready damaged prior to my purchase the oil pump and sprocket looked normal, but on second inspection we noticed that it was put on backwards according to our diagram and was missing a washer, at the time could not figure out how this could affect the oil flow since it DID seem to engage ...now we now it moves if not perfectly installed! In any air cooled machine, efficient oil flow is EVERYTHING |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging due to bad user assembly Post by Oldfeller on 07/02/09 at 15:44:16 I finally got my hindsight to working here, so forgive me for fumbling around a bit on this thread. There are many many small parts to our scooters. Some of them like the pin in question on the clutch basket gear flange are like 1/8" diameter and about twice that long (smaller than your little finger nail). Serenity, that little pin was behind the entire clutch basket -- how in the world could you possibly see it drop out of position? It dropped out of the hole & slot and down the rabbit hole into the center of the case before the clutch basket even finished moving forward on the shaft on its first trip to the work table. You never had a chance. Toymaker is getting ready to do his clutch -- this is one of the reasons I bother to even write all this tread up like this. Toymaker, FIRST THING stuff paper towels into all the rabbit holes going to the center of the crank case so a loose pin or circlip or jamming penny will stay out where you can see it. Get your sharpie laundry pen out and mark everything for witness marks as you take it apart. Put all associated parts in the same baggie. Write notes on your Clymers manual to fill in all the grotesque information gaps they leave as they tell you "remove clutch basket, don't lose the locating pin". |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging due to bad clutch assemb Post by Ed L. on 07/03/09 at 12:37:53 I've mis-assembled more than one motor in my time, if you don't know if a part is missing or dropped into a rabbit hole during assembly it really isn't your fault. 51K on an engine before a rebuild is respectable. Looks like another quirk we all need to look out for. |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging due to bad clutch assemb Post by Rockin_John on 07/03/09 at 18:55:34 Yup, since clutch repair jobs are probably not uncommon on the Savage, and it appears you have to remove the basket to do it, knowing to watch for the oil pump drive assembly falling apart during disassembly is critical information! Great call guys. Besides adding it to the cam chain adjustment checklist, it might call for it's own warning in the tech section to people in the process of repairing their clutch. I know that I've come to rely on the tech section here more than the manuals before attacking anything requiring disassembly on my Savages. Between two manuals; a picture CD; and the tech section here; my 30+ years as a mechanic and electrical tech give me a fair shot at getting a job done right the first time! ::) ;D |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging due to bad clutch assemb Post by T Mack 1 on 07/03/09 at 20:31:14 Hmmmm ... can you see me scratching my head from there. I bought my '01 with a dead engine. I had to take the lowwer end apart to clean and look for aluminum flakes from the melted piston. I also took the oil pump apart to check for clearences, which I found out we don't have. :( But it met the spec for my old Honda so I put it back together. I recall that the orientation of the pump gear was one of those "oh sh.t" moments of "which way did it come off". BUT ... I vaguely remember that on my '01, if installed backwards , there were "fit" issues. I'm scratching my head trying to remember what the issue was. I think it either rubbed or it wasn't aligned with the drive gear very well. Leaning torwards the rubbing thought..... |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging due to bad clutch assemb Post by Rockin_John on 07/03/09 at 20:53:04 Just to cause more doubt and confusion: There is that little ratchet-like "starter limiter" gear assy and associated gear inside the opposite engine side cover, and I'd never have gotten it back together right the first time I was in there if I hadn't taken MY OWN digital pictures as I disassembled that stuff to change the stator assy. Actually, for no more parts than a Savage has; there are a remarkable number of ways to put it back together wrong; or at least make a mistake that can soon prove catastrophic. |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging due to bad clutch assemb Post by Oldfeller on 07/04/09 at 09:53:28 I guess my biggest "learning" lately is how many of our older how-to supporting pictures in Photobucket have bit the dust lately. We had better stuff to go by way back then. How can we get long term support for our pictures that we put into tech threads? If we can't figure out a good answer to that question, then we do have a long term problem communicating these little Savage twitches. |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging due to bad clutch assemb Post by T Mack 1 on 07/04/09 at 10:11:58 7B5850525158585146340 wrote:
Pay for storage. Any site that has free stoarage is only short term. |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging due to bad clutch assemb Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/04/09 at 16:00:36 You guys have me worried now. Ive had the basket ioff, to do the chain. I dont 'member Nuthin about no pin.. |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging due to bad clutch assemb Post by Yonuh Adisi on 07/04/09 at 16:35:40 47646C6E6D64646D7A080 wrote:
I use myspace to host my pictures and there isn't a time limit on photo storage. If you have a myspace account, just create an album for nothing but the pictures you want to put here and host them that way. |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging due to bad clutch assemb Post by Oldfeller on 10/22/09 at 09:41:32 Here is a new way to kill your engine by oil starvation. Simply buy the wrong side cover gasket (or try to make a gasket off a wrong pattern). http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/cover2.JPG What happens here is the oil flow is not contained in the side cover gallery and is not delivered to the head passage or to the transmission passage. It oozes back down the side of the case to the sump. Dead engine shortly thereafter. (not my motor, somebody elses -- thank goodness) |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging due to bad clutch assemb Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/22/09 at 09:54:36 Whoever installed that wasnt paying attention at all. |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging due to bad clutch assemb Post by Oldfeller on 10/22/09 at 10:05:06 Justin, both you and I remember being broke and young and trying to attack jobs that we didn't know enough about simply because we had to. The young owner was paying a lot of attention, however he simply didn't know how the oil flow pattern in the Savage runs. Heck, until I followed a thread or two on this list I sure didn't know how it ran. If you told me the little jet dingus at the end of that case gallery was a pilot jet that controlled oil flow to the transmission while maintaining a balanced flow to the head through the hole on the other end of that gallery I'd have LOL'd at you. I sympathize with these "doing the best I can" folks, there but for the grace of God have been I (just last week as a matter of fact). I have learned to do net research on my projects before digging in too deep though, and that saved me last week and projects previous as well. It was an expensive mistake -- motor is trashed. |
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Title: Re: Oil pumps disengaging due to bad clutch assemb Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/22/09 at 10:37:40 It was an expensive mistake -- motor is trashed Thats always a danged shame. |
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