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General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Yet Another Air Filter Question
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Message started by Jay on 03/27/09 at 05:07:48

Title: Yet Another Air Filter Question
Post by Jay on 03/27/09 at 05:07:48

I need some advice guys.
OK, so it's about time for a air filter change (past due actually). Anyway, after reading several posts on the subject, including Old Fellers post on a DIY air filter, and not wanting to go the pod route; I began casting about for ideas on what to do.
The local Suzi stealership quoted me $35 for a replacement filter. Ouch! I'm afraid I'm just too cheap for that. I considered Old Fellers idea, but I kept thinking there had to be a better (read "easier") way. So off to Wally World I went, with the old filter in hand. Scanning the air filter section in automotive, I came upon a Fram #CA7421. It's about the right size, just about twice as long and about 1cm wider. Got it home, trimmed off the excess rubber from the edges, cut it in half, and slid it carefully in the space formally occupied by my old filter. It's a tight squeeze. The paper pleats have to be coaxed past the snorkle. Once in place, I put the plastic cover back on, then the metal side cover over that. Viola, a whole $11.33 for two filters, and a total of about 10 minutes of my time (not counting the shopping time at Wal-Mart).
Now this is where you guys come in. I haven't fired it up yet, because I need to know if there is any reason this will not work? While I have vast experience at being cheap and lazy, I have vitually no experience with this type of substitution. The filter, as I stated, is a snug fit, being a little wider than the stock. I don't think any trash is going to get past it, at least not any up to what it is designed to stop. It is, after all, merely a pleated paper filter; but at under $6 a filter, I don't mind changing them out. I've searched the site, but can't find a post where anyone tried an automotive filter. Whaddaya think?

Title: Re: Yet Another Air Filter Question
Post by savagedml on 03/27/09 at 05:43:37

Jay. Thanks for the idea and FRAM stock number. Now here's where you come in. Yours is already installed, so fire it up and tell us how it works for you. I'm headed to Wally World right after I get your report.
:)

Title: Re: Yet Another Air Filter Question
Post by Jay on 03/27/09 at 05:50:16

474E4F4250504A574651230 wrote:

Well.... While I appeciate the thanks, I'm kinda hoping for a wiegh in from someone with more experience in these matters than I. I don't need to foul a carb, or worse! :o

Title: Re: Yet Another Air Filter Question
Post by diamond jim on 03/27/09 at 06:16:35

Does the cut section of the filter fray any? Take the other half that you've got, rub the cut area between your fingers for a bit to loosen the fibers then hit the edge with a hair dryer on high for a minute. Observe for any fraying. If it does, take the one out of your airbox, put a bead of silicone on the cut edge to seal it and let it dry.

Also, while you've got the hair dryer out, put it up against the inflow side of the fram filter, turn it on and feel the amount of airlfow coming out the other side. Do the same with the removed stock filter and compare. Car engines develop more vacuum than the LS650 so they can handle more restrictive filter media. If the hair dryer flow test demonstrates noticeably less airflow than the stock filter then you'll have problems in terms of rich mixture and decreased power at higher rpms. If they seem to have the same airflow ability you should be good to go. The other way to do it is to use a vacuum cleaner with the hose attachment. Put some small, lightweight items on a table that a vacuum could pick up like pieces of paper, staples, etc. Turn the vacuum on, place one of the filters on the front of the hose and see if it will pick up the items. Listen to the change in the vacuum motor to see how much harder it is working. Then do the same with the other filter and see if it picks up the items the same, better or worse as well as listening to the vacuum motor load changes. Just make sure that when the fram is in the airbox that there is no spaces for unfiltered air to get past the filter and into the carb.

Title: Re: Yet Another Air Filter Question
Post by T Mack 1 on 03/27/09 at 06:20:01

Can air get around the filter element???

Title: Re: Yet Another Air Filter Question
Post by Gort on 03/27/09 at 11:15:12

I agree with Diamond Jim. Air filter elements are not all the same in their ability to let air through. Also, here is a link to a well respected study on the 'net that showed comparisons between after market filters and factory units, using some very expensive equipment and whose conclusions are documented in great detail:

http://duramax-diesel.com/spicer/index.htm

The factory units were always more restrictive, but always filtered better. Units like K&N and all its clones including foam filters, DO NOT filter dirt as well as factory paper element units. The conclusion to the article was that factory filters are the best compromise for engine longevity and engine breathing. K&N and its clones & foam units breathe better, but at the expense of allowing more contaminants into your engine, which of course wears it out faster. Also, paper air filters cannot be cleaned by brushing or air hoses, because they get clogged by the sticky petroleum contaminants that are found in exhaust fumes and industrial pollution. The solvents needed to remove these from a paper element would destroy the element.

Title: Re: Yet Another Air Filter Question
Post by Gort on 03/27/09 at 11:16:34

70096945474F15240 wrote:

Can air get around the filter element???

This has been noticed by some Savage owners. The seal between the element and air-box is not always good, and dirty air slips by.

Title: Re: Yet Another Air Filter Question
Post by Jay on 03/27/09 at 20:39:41

Thanks for all the input guys. I haven't been able to fire it up yet (responsibility takes all the joy out of life); but I hope to take a ride tommorrow. I did the vacuum cleaner and blowdryer tests recommended by DJ. While not a true apples to apples comparrison (the OEM filter was dirty), if anything there was more air flow through the Fram filter. The edges don't fray after being cut. I rubbed the edge pretty good, looking for any lint or fiber throw off. Couldn't get it to do it, even with very rough treatment.
TMack asked about air getting around the filter element. While anything is possible, I don't think this one is likely. I had to trim the rubber edge of the Fram filter in order to get it into the space. The filter is also about 1 to 1.5cm wider in the uprght position. It has to be coaxed into the slot, and eased around the snorkle. The compartment is pretty full. The only open space is the area immediately below the snorkle. The rest of the space is full of filter.
Well, I guess I'll go into the great unknown tommorrow. I hope it goes well. Thanks again for all the input. If anyone else has any ideas, please feel free to weigh in.
Jay

Title: Re: Yet Another Air Filter Question
Post by Wolf on 03/28/09 at 17:40:50

Hi Jay, like you, new, eager nad , I am spanding (mine has over 16000 '99 Ls 650), but they were hard-er miles...

The Raask dragpipe arrived yesterday, pick up today... Sweet!

I have on order the verslavy from Verslagen1 and (April - June before I get these mods), I have the Jetset, cam chain and performance cam arriving from Lancer. I wanted the performance carbset with all the bells and whistles. That will have to wait a few months...

This is a cool bike for many reasons... hopped up engine and components...

Have you ordered the Clymers manual for your bike and the Picture CD offered by thid website? Do get...

This forum has helped me out and now I am a tad bit more focused on when to make a change.

Well, have fun!

Wolf 8-)

Title: Re: Yet Another Air Filter Question
Post by Jay on 03/28/09 at 22:24:36

Thanks Wolf. I did take it out for a 30 mile spin to work last night. Will be riding it home in the morning. Didn't notice any difference in performance. My plan is to take it back and forth to work for the next couple of days. That should put about 120 - 150 miles on it. Then I'm going to pull the filter and see how it looks; i also plan to inspect the filter compartment for any debris from the cut area of the filter. It would be sweet (read easy and cheap) if this works!

Title: Re: Yet Another Air Filter Question
Post by Oldfeller on 03/29/09 at 07:16:51

Jay, you mention the snorkle hitting the filter elements. This sorta implies you have the snorkle still in place and you are still using the air door.

From past experience I might suggest pulling your snorkle up out of the air box from the seat side and removing it out of the way. You can put it back if you want to, it is just a rubber piece held in place by simple friction.

Similar thoughts for the air door, take it off and store it and try running it that way as you can always put it back later if you choose to.

Using the air door forces all the air to come in through the snorkle opening which creates quite an air blast that quickly loads up a very small portion of your air filter to the point of blockage/failure. Removing the air door lets air in gently from the side as well as through the snorkle opening and the larger inbound volume opening means air velocity is greatly reduced (less physical wear and tear on the filter element).

The snorkle was a factory sound damping item that also redirects the factory designed in place "concentrated air blast" to bounce it off the bottom of the air box, bust it into eddies and suck it through the filter. This activity translates into "extra resistance" no matter how you say it.

If you aren't using the air door you do not need the snorkle -- it is just in the way.

I found the best breathing for the bike was the least constricted breathing -- no air door, no snorkle.

I have not discovered a downside to not using snorkle or air door and it has been years & years since either was on my bike. Because they are not there I had more physical room to increase my filter element to 2" thick and I got a lot better filtration and longer use life accordingly.

Try it, you may like it.

Title: Re: Yet Another Air Filter Question
Post by diamond jim on 03/29/09 at 08:03:47

Ditto on what Oldfeller said. Check out Dan's good info on filters and airboxes on his site: http://www.dansmc.com/aircleaner.htm

Title: Re: Yet Another Air Filter Question
Post by Savage_Amusement on 03/29/09 at 08:05:31

When I had the stock filter I was getting more dirt past the filter than when I even went with the KnN stock replacement. As for my KnN cone filter I have thought about adding a piece of that other filter element that has been mentioned inside of it. Worth a shot I guess.

Title: Re: Yet Another Air Filter Question
Post by serowbot on 03/29/09 at 09:17:59

Along the same vein,... I bought a K/N car filter from Wallyworld ($26.92) and cut it in half.... been running it for 2 1/2 years with no problem. I just gutted the stock filter from the metal frame and glued this in with RTV.
Part no. 33-2819
Here's a pic of the box and the remaining half of the filter.

http://67.15.194.28/2009%5C03%5C29%5Cbikepics-1616471-full.jpg

Here's the finished product... RTV's a little sloppy, but it's airtight.

http://67.15.194.28/2009%5C03%5C29%5Cbikepics-1616505-full.jpg

Title: Re: Yet Another Air Filter Question
Post by diamond jim on 03/29/09 at 09:20:34

Great idea!

Title: Re: Yet Another Air Filter Question
Post by Jay on 03/29/09 at 20:11:57

Here I thought I'd come up with something new. Great idea serowbot.
Oldfeller, thanks for the tips. I will look at doing both when I get off work. You were my inspiration for looking at filter alternatives. Without your Yoda post on filters, I would've never thought of it; and been stuck paying $35 bucks a pop to Suzuki.
Diamond Jim, thanks for the link to Dan. I've stumbled upon his site a couple of times. His section on valve adjustment, while not Savage specific, is something I consider a must read for the mechanically challenged like myself. I hadn't read the section on air filters. I got it bookmarked and am looking forward to reading what he has to say. I'm also set to do your seat mod tommorrow, in prep for an upcoming jaunt out of town.
Thanks to all for all the tips and support. It's one of the things I love about this site. We may be seperated by many miles, but we never go it alone when it comes to the Savage.

Title: Re: Yet Another Air Filter Question
Post by diamond jim on 03/30/09 at 05:04:54

Do you have the one-piece seat or the two piece? I'm familiar with the modding the one piece. Big Nix has done the two piece and his looks sharp. On the two piece, since I had moved the rectifier, I shaved off the bump that is over the rectifier until it was even with the seat. There were also two ridges on the upper back slope of the rider's seat that I also shaved off even.
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh128/russ_diamond_jim/shavedseat.jpg

You can either shave it off as well or scallop the inside of the foam to fit over the bumps however it won't look as flat. After I shaved the bumps I cut a piece of aluminum flashing the shape of the entire top of the seat and riveted it on. I then sprayed the aluminum and seat pan sides with spray adhesive, applied the foam, worked it over the sides and trimmed it with about 3/4" of foam hanging lower than the edge of the seat pan. At this point the foam held the shape of the seat. I covered that with two layers of cotton batting also hanging over the edge 3/4". Added a plastic cover then the seat cover. Leaving the extra 3/4" of foam and cotton batting below the seat pan edges is important for getting that nice look where the cover wraps under the seat edge. Trim the extra hangover a tad in areas that may be difficult to staple. The plastic is for waterproofing and allowing the seat cover to slide and move around when you sit on it. Throw the cover in the dryer like Big Nix did to allow it to stretch before stapling. When you put the cover on, snug up the lowest part across the rider's seat first. Then work outward. Do a few staples to hold it on, snug it up, a few more staples and so on.

Title: Re: Yet Another Air Filter Question
Post by Jay on 03/31/09 at 00:52:41

Thanks Diamond Jim. I haven't been able to get to it yet. My mother had a setback in her recovery from surgery, and I spent the better part of the evening at the hospital. I also noticed that my rear tire is due for a replacement, so I've had to back burner the seat mod until I get these other issues taken care of. It's on my list though, and I still hope to get it done before my trip. Right now though, it's out to the garage to see if I can wrestle the rear wheel off and head to the shop in the morning for a tire mounting.