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Message started by verslagen1 on 12/02/08 at 09:05:10

Title: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 12/02/08 at 09:05:10

Follow up on the '88 with a knock
I thought y'all might learn sumptin' as I do.

The knock sounds like a heavy valves out of adjustment, not the usual tic but a toc.
The PO said got it a few months ago, was riding down the freeway when it lost power and started knocking.
Suspecting the cam chain tensioner, I whipped off the clutch cover to find at my dismay, the tensioner still intact, extended a good amount so I put in a slavy.
Couple of things I noticed while in there, gasket looked pretty new and the oil looked like fried dino guts. So I put in fresh cheap rotella expecting to change it again soon.
So I slapped it back together, adjusted the valves and started her up.
No improvement, still knocks.
Well last weekend, got around to looking at it again, readjusted the valves, Hmmm... all of them are too tight.
One suggestion was to push down on the piston just as it starts down after TDC, tried it and felt no lag in the motion as it moved from going up to down. And no motion when pushed either.

What to look at next?

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by Bear_Rider on 12/02/08 at 16:59:52

This might be a stretch, but could this twenty-year old bike have enough deposits in the combustion chamber and on the piston to raise the compression ratio enough to cause the knock?

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 12/02/08 at 23:52:16

My suspicions lie in the sluggy oil.
Savage greg is the only one I know that dropped a ring after some work.
But a bad ring might burn up the oil a bit.

I'm also concerned with the change in valve adjustment, could be something loose up there.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/03/08 at 02:38:07

As for the oil, you are already on that, a few quick changes & get the crappy stuff flushed out. That parts easy.
About that knock. I dont see how this would help find it, but I would do it just for giggles. I would hook up an inductive trigger timing light & see at what part of the cycle does the knock happen. If its not at the same time as the light flashes, then the piston isnt at compression or exhaust. So, If you knew that, what would you knw? Hekk, I dunno..

The test you did, pushing down on the piston after it started back down. That might work out, IF the slack in the bearings was so loose that the friction of the rings would pull it up, but if the bearing is just "Less than healthy", thers no guarantee that the slack in it would be revealed by the friction of the rings in the cylinder.( IMO, I may be off by miles here)

If you pull the timing cover & just crank it over with a wrench or ratchet, whatever, can you feel the knock? If you pull the plug & hit the starter, can you hear it? What about pulling the plugwire & pulling the decomp cable to engage the decomp & hit the starter with the plug in?

I've heard of guys dropping rice down the intake of a car that they thought might be carboned up. Sure would be a lousy deal to get more in than it could swallow & wind up having to pilaff the head to get the glue out.

If you think ther might be a busted ring in the mix, maybe a borescope to see the cylinder walls is in order? I think they are expensive, maybe its possible to rent one.
I have a magnetic oil drain plug, but havent done the whole
Old Feller magnetic treatment to the oil pathway. I do run a pretty stout magnet thru the oil I drain out. If you think there is metal floating around, maybe pulling the clutch cover again & cleaning & checking with a magnet would be an idea?
Would a compression check do you any good at all? Unless its low, I dont see how it would do you much good. It could be fine & you still have a busted ring, right?

Good luck, I wish I could have been more help

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by SV og LS on 12/03/08 at 02:55:52

Many knocking Savages I've heard of have had worn rocker arms and/or camshaft. Pull the valve cover and take a look, you'll remove it anyway if you need to go further.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by PipJones on 12/03/08 at 06:33:52

what is the compression of the cylinder? psi?

Pip Jones

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 12/27/08 at 14:40:03

1920390326272C3A490 wrote:

what is the compression of the cylinder? psi?

Pip Jones

105 dry / 110 with a squirt of oil.

borescope:
http://www.tooldesk.com/shop/borescope1.wml

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by serowbot on 12/27/08 at 15:28:51

This may sound stupid, but a friend of mine had a V-Star that swallowed some gunk,...plugged up a jet, and was chuffing along with a way cranked idle mix,...it was stumbly running and making a bad kinda' rod knock sound..... We rebiuld the carbs and it was perfect.

Not likely, but.... Hows the idle sound?

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 12/27/08 at 16:58:01

ThumpaKnock, ThumpaKnock, ThumpaKnock...

Did run it around the block a couple of times, couldn't say it was hot, but warm def. There's a couple times when the knock would diminish to a tick.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by serowbot on 12/28/08 at 01:37:51

Just to toss a couple ideas out... adding choke help anything?...might clue you to a carb problem.....
or....do you think adding some motor honey, or swapping to a straight 30 or 40 wt, might tell you if it's in the top end or the bottom?.....

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by dasch on 12/28/08 at 08:25:13

Piston rod bearings?? Main crankshaft/journal bearings (or whatever you call them in English)?? Pain in the a$$.

I had a strange knock once when my exhaust manifold got just a bit loose at the head. I torqued it and it stopped, couldn't even tell it was loose by grab and shake method.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by smokin_blue on 12/28/08 at 08:27:24

Bad rod bearing??

old Suzuki LT230 quads were notorious for taking out the rod bearings when used and abused. They would knock both at idle and on the gas.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 12/28/08 at 08:34:51

I rotated the crank by hand alot and it felt smooth. Stuck a screwdriver to the top of the piston and worked the crank back and forth and felt no slop.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by dasch on 12/28/08 at 10:07:31

Is this the first time you actually see it running?

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 12/28/08 at 11:50:58

I've ran it only a couple of times, about 10 to 20 min's each.

Interesting point, turning the engine backwards does engage the starter as we all should know, but I also hear a kind of chain scrapping noise on the case, same area.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by T Mack 1 on 12/28/08 at 12:24:14

Cam Journal??????

EDIT: meaning ... did you inspect the cam journal to see if it was worn. The side by the cam chain gets the most abuse, and if the oil was crud, then maybe the journal got worn and has slop.....

Let me know if you need a photo, I have a head in the garage that has a worn journal....

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by Tincanman on 12/28/08 at 12:33:29

the area on the end of the camshaft the has a U shape groove in it

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by T Mack 1 on 12/28/08 at 14:19:35

6D7E6968777A7C7E752A1B0 wrote:

pop the starter and do it again.... it would be interesting to know if the scrapping noise continues...

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 12/28/08 at 16:16:53

Haven't taken anything apart yet cause I didn't have time.

Last chance for blind diagnosis.

Started her up, cold idle knock almost gone, rev her up and it's there.

Went and got mechanics stethyscope and started up the 96 for comparison so you don't need to know it whirr's the same all over.

But the knock, knock is loadest.... drum roll please... in the middle of... the cylinder. Same knock all the way around.

BTW: HF has stethyscope's, when they are on sale, only a couple of buck's. And it really beats a screwdriver hands down IMO.

So last chance to make a guess before I tear into it.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 12/28/08 at 16:22:04

Poll added.

Make your guess I'll let you know soon

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by T Mack 1 on 12/28/08 at 17:33:34

3C2F3839262B2D2F247B4A0 wrote:

Poll added.

Make your guess I'll let you know soon

Would you say Cam journal is same as Cam in the Poll??

415245445B5650525906370 wrote:

BTW: HF has stethyscope's, when they are on sale, only a couple of buck's. And it really beats a screwdriver hands down IMO.

I married a nurse.......don't let her know I borrow her "spare" every once and a while.

TM

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 12/28/08 at 19:23:04

1861012D2F277D4C0 wrote:

Would you say Cam journal is same as Cam in the Poll??

I married a nurse.......don't let her know I borrow her "spare" every once and a while.

I'm gonna count everything to do with each item.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by T Mack 1 on 12/28/08 at 20:15:31

Well, since I've had a metled piston in my hands, and my mechanic buddy said it should have been knocking pretty loud by the time it got that back, I'll go pistion..... but still think the journal should be looked at closely.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by smokin_blue on 12/30/08 at 18:41:42

My money (and my vote) is still on a rod bearing

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by Eddy Thomas on 12/30/08 at 19:46:29

Crank Pin

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 12/30/08 at 20:44:07

well vote crank pin then.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by photojoe on 12/31/08 at 08:43:14

It was painful, but I had to vote rod myself. It's really hard to vote without hearing the actual sound, but I can spot piston slap a mile away.
Had a rod blow on my '84 Sportster, not a pleasant experience. Before she blew, there was a very distinct slap, almost like a mini sledgehammer hitting led. When the rod blew, it was like the bike was running out of gas. She lost all power. Got it home, and then to a mechanic friend of mine who was also a machinist. After he replaced the rod, he said that cleaning all of the metal bits out of the motor and oil system took longer than the install itself. The key is to catch it before it blows.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 12/31/08 at 10:31:20

Got the head cover off (engine on bench ;D )
Cam looks in pretty good shape, cross that on off the list.

Looking for an impact driver to get some screws off that looking kinda permanent. Good reason for a ride ;D
But It's my b'day, going to visit my folks for a couple of days.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by 88pagan on 12/31/08 at 10:59:37

HaPpY BiRtHdAy VeRsLaGeN!!! It's pretty nice out here today..you going to ride to your parents?

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 12/31/08 at 13:28:00

I would need a sidecar and a couple more helmets.

My kids are with me. ;D

But I wish I could ride, great day for it.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by Dj12midnit on 12/31/08 at 16:16:58

Thats not right! You can't go off like this. To be continued was not in the poll. >:(

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 12/31/08 at 19:01:47

Did you miss you valium today?

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by Dj12midnit on 12/31/08 at 19:41:07

I knew I forgot something... ;D

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 01/03/09 at 16:52:18

OK, I have the answer.

You have till 7pm pst to make your guess in the poll.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 01/03/09 at 19:03:30

It was the piston.
Overheated
jammed up the rings

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/03/09 at 19:05:32

Wowzaas.. bore damage? Gonna have to mic it inside?
Any idea why it got so hot?

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 01/03/09 at 19:13:43

Bore mostly ok, a hone job should fix it right up.

Small spot where the piston spat some material.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by T Mack 1 on 01/04/09 at 19:31:54

5E4D5A5B44494F4D4619280 wrote:

Bore mostly ok, a hone job should fix it right up.

Small spot where the piston spat some material.

Mine was so overheated that it lost compression. The section of the bore at the rear of the engine was the worse spot.

Have the bore checked for true. Mine was oblonged, and fatter in the middle (compared to the top & bottom). Once we trued it up, and then removed the scoring, we were just over the max for std piston. Yes, I have an LS660, just like Greg.

Also, a tid-bit of interesting info..... before we trued it up, but after we got the melted aluminum off, we found the bore in the smallest spot was at the factory min (almost too small).

http://www.users.fast.net/~tommack/100_1951.JPG

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 01/04/09 at 21:17:12

One of the tricks to getting an oversized part within spec is to have it annealed. probably why it was to the minimum.

Mine has only a little spot about the width of a finger. By the intake on the right side.

After I wiped the bore clean I did notice some pitting.
And getting the wrist pin out was a chore.

Anyone know the dif between an '88 cylinder and a 2001?

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by Oldfeller on 01/05/09 at 03:38:17

Don't we run a mild annealing cycle every time we go for a spin? Could we be shrinking our own bores slightly (and irregularly) over time?

We have several reports of this long term "eat the piston" now, two are reported from Savage Greg and Verslagen, two of our most skilled repairmen.

We also have several reports of sudden increased "mysterious" oil consumption during the extended service portion of our bikes. (mine is one of these) that could be a mild case of the same animal.

We may be seeing some variation in our bores based on what gets hot or stays cooler during the anneal cycle -- some possible support exists for this theorum?

If you buy into this theorum, when you do a long term tear down you might want to measure carefully then fresh up your scratch finish with a rigid hone to take out "the tight spots" before putting in some new rings, even if you are still within service bore spec. when measured "overall".

It is a big arsed bore with tight tolerances. Few air cooled steel in aluminum bores are larger than ours.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 01/05/09 at 07:49:59

To anneal steel, you have to heat it up to about 1600°F.
Aluminum melts about 1200°F
600 to 900°F is an ageing cycle (read hardening)

I looked up the part number for the cylinders
'88 ends with a 6
and '01 ends with a 7
I've read before there was a height difference between the early and later models. Anybody else recall anything?

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by T Mack 1 on 01/05/09 at 08:59:04

2D3E2928373A3C3E356A5B0 wrote:

From the OEM parts finder tool the dealers have:
CYLINDER
11210-24B07-0F0 (replaces 11210-24B06)

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 01/05/09 at 09:23:16

61187854565E04350 wrote:

From the OEM parts finder tool the dealers have:
CYLINDER
11210-24B07-0F0 (replaces 11210-24B06)

I beleave the last dash number is for the black finish.

So, I guess I have a spare jug and piston already. ;D

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/05/09 at 09:39:11

To anneal steel, you have to heat it up to about 1600°F.
Aluminum melts about 1200°F
600 to 900°F is an ageing cycle (read hardening)

So there's no dimensional change?

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 01/05/09 at 11:42:25

617E787F62655464546C7E72390B0 wrote:

To anneal steel, you have to heat it up to about 1600°F.
Aluminum melts about 1200°F
600 to 900°F is an ageing cycle (read hardening)

So there's no dimensional change?

Minimally for the ageing, and it's not like the longer you bake it the smaller it gets. It's the hotter... And of course the hotter you get it the thinner it will puddle.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by T Mack 1 on 01/05/09 at 11:49:24

72617677686563616A35040 wrote:

[quote author=61187854565E04350 link=1228237514/30#41 date=1231174744]From the OEM parts finder tool the dealers have:
CYLINDER
11210-24B07-0F0 (replaces 11210-24B06)

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 01/05/09 at 13:00:09

473E5E72707822130 wrote:

[quote author=72617677686563616A35040 link=1228237514/30#42 date=1231176196][quote author=61187854565E04350 link=1228237514/30#41 date=1231174744]From the OEM parts finder tool the dealers have:
CYLINDER
11210-24B07-0F0 (replaces 11210-24B06)

I beleave the last dash number is for the black finish.

So, I guess I have a spare jug and piston already. ;D[/quote]

Actually I looked at a '87 so that should be silver..... but looking at a 2004 that should be black we get:
11210-24B07-0F0 (replaces 11210-24B07) and
11210-24B10-0F0

So.... only guessing but I would say that the 24B10 is the black.....[/quote]
At the site I looked at, they had the 11210-24B07 for a '95 as well as the 11210-24B07-0F0 for a '04 (I think) didn't note when the changed over, but pretty sure the '-0F0' stands for black finish.

I'm also pretty sure the B06, B07 & B10 are the revision code. Actually 24B is for the bike model.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by Oldfeller on 01/05/09 at 14:31:34

Verslagen, to fully soften steel you need to go that high, but to draw it some you only have to go over 350 degrees.

A good draw of 600-800 degrees F used to take a tenth or two off of a die pin's OD measurements, so I guess I was thinking more of a draw state rather than a full anneal.

We do hit the 350 range on occasion, don't you think?

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 01/05/09 at 14:53:43

And heating up to anneal might take off 2 or 4.

But any how, it's not like baking an orange. You don't start off a fat piece of metal and end up with a sheet of paper by baking it longer. Once you bring it up to temp, and it shrinks abit, you can bring it up that temp again and it won't shrink much more.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 01/06/09 at 08:30:55

If I had the borescope mentioned earlier, I could've seen the melted area in the piston and diagnosed the problem prior to teardown. Could also be used to inspect the valve seats. Could also have found Pagans lost part in the sump. Might even be used to inspect the cam chain tensioner from going in the oil fill.

Think I talked myself into something.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by Charon on 01/06/09 at 09:26:01

Jerry Eichenberger may be able to verify this, but I believe a borescope inspection of each cylinder is part of an aircraft's annual inspection. If so the local airport probably has a mechanic with a borescope, who will - for a fee - be willing to inspect your bike's engine and perhaps save you the expense of buying a borescope.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/07/09 at 00:00:27

& there is an obstruction built in below the oil fill. Ive never played with a Scope so I dont know how many turns it can make. Heck, now that I typed this, it occurs to me, You've seen what Im talking about, probably more than once. Not erasin it.
Anyone have a pic of a borescope? Never seen one.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 01/07/09 at 07:33:52

http://www.tooldesk.com/newimages/boroscopes.gif

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by Charon on 01/07/09 at 15:12:32

If you have ever had a colonoscopy, laparoscopy, or gastroscopy, you have had a borescope by another name used on you.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/07/09 at 18:30:10

Yea, true enough. I've never been "scoped". My dad told me I would never need one 'Up there". He told me I had the place under 24 hour surveilance.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 01/22/09 at 22:38:40

SHE LIVES! BUHAHA BWHUUUHAHA!

Oh sh!t, forgot the muffler, buhaha, buuuhaha. I see I'm gonna have to mod the muf. Not quite what I was looking for.

Bought a wrecked '02 and swapped everything out.

Still putting it back together, but just had to see if I was on the right track. I see I'm gonna get quizzed tomorrow, did you get a hair cut?, loose weight? ... Ol' smilin' bob ain't got nothin' on me ;D

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 01/30/09 at 22:35:53

Got her back together, mostly, wire hanging out all over. lol.

But screwed up the shifter, she only shifts up. rode around the block in second. ;D

Dead tired now, will look at in the morning.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 01/31/09 at 23:15:23

Got it fixed, repositioned the shift arm and that did the trick.

;D

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by photojoe on 02/01/09 at 08:06:39

This is one bike that I'm really looking forward to seeing when it's finished.
Also, I'm glad that those of us who voted for the rod/lower end knock were wrong.

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by sluggo on 02/01/09 at 21:45:32

7F6C7B7A65686E6C6738090 wrote:

[quote author=1920390326272C3A490 link=1228237514/0#5 date=1228314832]what is the compression of the cylinder? psi?

Pip Jones

105 dry / 110 with a squirt of oil.

borescope:
http://www.tooldesk.com/shop/borescope1.wml
[/quote]
ouch..... pretty pricey...

Title: Re: I hear you knockin'
Post by verslagen1 on 02/02/09 at 08:46:42

11090E150E0B0E610 wrote:

This is one bike that I'm really looking forward to seeing when it's finished.
Also, I'm glad that those of us who voted for the rod/lower end knock were wrong.

Cleaned and waxed it Sunday. The bike was an uninspired maroon when I bought it.
Took a picture, but just didn't do it justice. All I can say is '88 was a great year for red. 8-)