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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> firing /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1189555773 Message started by bill67 on 09/11/07 at 17:09:33 |
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Title: firing Post by bill67 on 09/11/07 at 17:09:33 does the s40 really fire every time instead of every other time i sure wouldnt have thought that |
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Title: Re: firing Post by LANCER on 09/11/07 at 17:21:03 I was thinking about this the other day and could not remember which way it goes....... ??? |
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Title: Re: firing Post by demin on 09/11/07 at 17:23:15 Every other time or else it would be a 2stroke |
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Title: Re: firing Post by vtail on 09/11/07 at 17:27:53 It fires even on the dead stroke which contributes to burning unburned mixture in the exhaust (popping). To keep it simple the ignition and alt/generator coil are combined and fires on each revolution of the crank. So if you buy a tachometer make sure you're getting one that works on a 2 stroke even though it's a 4 stroke :) :) |
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Title: Re: firing Post by demin on 09/11/07 at 17:31:29 Just like a dual fire Harley ok. Duh :-[ ;D |
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Title: Re: firing Post by mark_k on 09/11/07 at 17:38:42 I had made that mistake when I bought a small induction tach. I bought a 4 cycle version, which is correct mechanically, but I needed the 2 cycle version electrically. Once I made the switch, the tach works great. |
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Title: Re: firing Post by bill67 on 09/11/07 at 18:07:47 i bought a 4cycle tach i guess i will put it on my lawnmower |
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Title: Re: firing Post by T-Mack1 on 09/11/07 at 19:20:36 So......the interesting subject of what is single fire and what is dual. Usually dual fire bikes have more than one cylinder!! Also, Two wires out of one ign coil is a big clue. In reality, today's manufacturers do funny things with ignitions especially with electronic ign's and you need to find which tachs work on the bike. Don't try the "well if it's a ........" and 2-cycle and 4-cycle dosen't mean dual fire or single fire, but mostly 2 cycles are single fire. So...here you go.... I have a MMB Electronic Tach on mine that is a 1:1 tach and it works nice. It did NOT work on my old bike which was a '82 Honda CM250C Custom (TwinStar engine) which is considered 100% a dual fire bike ((it gave twice the real RPM on the Honda)). So, since my tach didn't run on a dual fire bike and runs nice on the LS650, I would say LS650's need single fire tachs. Second, since there are many threads on the mini digital tachs that work, and from hunting for a tach for the Honda, I found that they're single fire because they are made for lawn tractors/mowers, again I would say LS650's need single fire tachs. Lastly, occasionaly you will see an EBay seller listing a mini analog tach for the LS650, that is also same tach that is sold for single fire HD's.......need I say more.... Note: Need to attach the electronic tach's (not induction)to the B/Y (black/ yellow strip? ? ?) wire on Ign coil not the O /W (orange / white stripe? ? ?) wire. I know from learning from an OOPS..... |
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Title: Re: firing Post by Kropatchek on 09/12/07 at 06:57:12 To summarize ( or make things even more confused) The Savage/LS650/S40 is a 4 stroke DUAL fire ignition ( meaning 2 fires in every 4 stroke cycle) and works from the negative puls of the CDI. |
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Title: Re: firing Post by Savage_Greg on 09/12/07 at 07:17:53 To add to Kropatchek, it is called "Wasted Spark". It fires on both strokes at TDC. Much simpler to do the ignition with a pick up coil on the crankshaft than timing off the cam shaft. The extra spark on the exhaust stroke is supposedly good for removing small amounts of unburned gas, too. |
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Title: Re: firing Post by T-Mack1 on 09/13/07 at 08:57:33 I just re-read my post and realize it might not relay the thought I had. I really wanted to say that depending on what the manufacturer does with the ign and what ever you want to call it, you still need the tach to read the red-line they come up with. Yea, the way the ign pickup is on the LS650 is, it fires twice, once on compression and once on exhaust strokes and in pure theory that is dual fire. But,......... Suzuki says red-line is 6500 rpm, max HP is around 3100, and to get the tach to read that, it's got to be a single fire tach. So, I guess we could get someone with a mechanical handheld tach and have them put it on the flywheel through the timing hole and find out the actually mechanical RPM.....but, if I recall correectly the manual say to use an electrical tach to set idle.......sounds like a debate coming.... .... wonder if the mechanical rpm is really 500-600 at idle, hmmmmmmmm..... |
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Title: Re: firing Post by Savage_Greg on 09/13/07 at 10:16:13 I remember that "back in the day", a tach came with clips or jumpers that allowed you to set the number of cylinders...of course, that was on single coil (point) ignition systems. Anyway...isn't the tach counting revolutions and not compression strokes? If there is one pulse per revolution, it is a no brainer for the tach. 1=1. So yeah, at 1100 RPMs we would be running at 550 CPMs (compressions per minute). Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow...that's it :P |
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Title: Re: firing Post by T-Mack1 on 09/13/07 at 10:40:04 Greg, yea.....where's my mind......that would be 1:1. I keep thinking of my old 250 Honda (same engine as the 250 Rebels have now). Two cylinders, 180 deg out (one compressing, one exhausting at same time) and two wires coming out of the one coil to fire the spark on each stroke. Honda listed it at 9500 max rpm, but my 1:1 tach rev'd pass 12K at not even half throttle. That's what I consider a dual fire bike because it needs different circuitry in tach. The Pro-Cycle tach's have a wire that gets cut to change between single or dual....but they were too big to fit where I wanted to put the tach. Thanks for waking me up. |
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Title: Re: firing Post by mpescatori on 09/13/07 at 12:03:58 I keep thinking of my old 250 Honda (same engine as the 250 Rebels have now). Two cylinders, 180 deg out (one compressing, one exhausting at same time) T-Mack, if your Honda was a 180° twin, it worked "one compressing, one banging". When one goes up, the other goes down. If both went up&down at the same time, you had a 360° twin. :) |
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Title: Re: firing Post by vtail on 09/13/07 at 12:12:51 T-Mack1 wrote:
I have checked the rpm with an electronic Proptach used on aircraft to check 2 or 3 bladed props by using an induction timing light as a light source. This Proptach is so accurate that when pointed to a lightbulb it reads 3600 (115 Volts, 60 cycle per second X 60= 3600 cyles per min). When my ENM tach reads 1200 the proptach reads 1200. So when buying an induction tachometer make sure it works thru impulses of each turn of the crank. IAW one that works on a 2 stroke :) |
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Title: Re: firing Post by T-Mack1 on 09/13/07 at 17:57:53 180 deg....360 deg....hmmmmmmm Are you thinking that one full cycle of one piston is 720 degrees?? Yea, that would be 360. I was thinking like an electronic tech and one cycle is 360 deg and I just split it in half gawg,...I must be getting old.....getting harder to switch in between disciplines anymore. Elect Tech to Mechanic to Expediter...... |
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Title: Re: firing Post by thumperclone on 09/13/07 at 18:25:40 i have an induction style tach..wrap pick up/sensor wire few times around spark plug wire..tach reads true .. 2 revs & 2 sparks per each four stroke cycle ..360 deg = 1 revolution=1 down stroke 1 up stroke |
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Title: Re: firing Post by sluggo on 09/13/07 at 20:54:29 dude's this thread's making my head hurt. to many big words. i just know i put fuel in it start er' up and thump on away. tach's we don't need no stinking tach's on a thumper. 8) ;D |
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Title: Re: firing Post by Savage_Greg on 09/13/07 at 21:24:17 thumperclone wrote:
Induction is cool. Like a mechanics timing light. And your point it? Thanks :P |
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Title: Re: firing Post by Savage_Greg on 09/13/07 at 21:25:08 sluggo wrote:
Here's another big word.... motorcycle.... |
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Title: Re: firing Post by Savage_Greg on 09/13/07 at 21:30:33 T-Mack1 wrote:
Now, I'm getting confused... A 360 crank is both up (or down) at the same time but one is compression and the other is exhaust. A 180 crank is one up and one down with one on compression (or exhaust) and one on intake (or power). That Yam 650 I just finished was a 360 degree floor shaking vertical twin...sure was smooth on power though. |
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Title: Re: firing Post by diesel on 09/14/07 at 00:28:02 180 crank would sound like a very high reving John Deere mod A or B. kinda like a "potato-potato" sound. only no one can patend it. |
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Title: Re: firing Post by diesel on 09/14/07 at 23:31:31 had a Kaw 350 2 stroke, 3 carbs,3 spark plugs,3pipes,3coils,3sets of points, and a 120 crank. at 6k it produced 18k exhaust pulses per min. sounded like a nest of POed bumble bees. |
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Title: Re: firing Post by Savage_Greg on 09/15/07 at 05:57:09 diesel wrote:
Yep. Not hard to sort out a 2 stroke...up, down, up, down... Here's an S3 that I repaired a couple months ago. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/1975_KH400_3424.jpg |
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