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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> cam chain tensioner mod works /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1176877915 Message started by slavy on 04/17/07 at 23:31:55 |
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Title: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by slavy on 04/17/07 at 23:31:55 Couple of days ago I picked up a '95 LS650 with 17XXX miles on the odo. There was a cam chain noise, so I checked it and I was lucky. The tensioner was all crooked and ready to pop out. I extended the tensioner and this brought it to only 3 clicks OUT. Now the bike wispers. There is not even the slightest cam chain noise. Now it is confirmed- this works. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Oldfeller2 on 04/18/07 at 04:03:45 Please clarify -- which exact method did you use? There have been several methods discussed on how to make the existing cam chain and tensioner "live again". Which one did you use? Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by justin_o_guy on 04/18/07 at 06:42:46 Yes. Slavy, do tell.. whatever did you deww? I have new chain & the tensioner is out .333 inches & I even tweaked the rear guide a good bit. or so I thought. I really want to get the full service from the chain, & I dont thinik it will happen without doing something to the tensioner. You say you "extended " the tensioner, I am guessing you put a spacer between the current mount & the tensioner body, to foece the whole tensioner closer to the chain, thereby closing the tensioner into itself, ..that said, HOW did ya make the spacer? |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Savage_Rob on 04/18/07 at 07:29:12 Are you saying you lengthened the tensioner piston? |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 04/18/07 at 09:24:55 Slavy's mod is to weld an extra tab on the end. Giving an extra hole to mount the guide to. Am I right slavy? ;D |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by slavy on 04/18/07 at 14:13:15 Darn it! I wish I was a little better with the computer. I have some pictures, but I am realy very lame when the things come to computers. I extend the piston with a flat piece of metal and drill one more hole about 18 mm /center to center/ in front of the original one. I drive the bolt thru the new hole, and this way the piston goes back pretty close to the starting position. If somebody wants a picture of the extended piston, send me an email and I'll send You a picture. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Savage_Rob on 04/19/07 at 06:12:17 slavy wrote:
Slavy, If you'll email the pics to me and I'll get them into this thread for you. suzukisavage@gmail.com |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Reelthing on 04/20/07 at 07:57:36 sorry I was fishing and 2 days late on the post! http://reelthing.savageriders.com/pics/savage/P4171653.JPG http://reelthing.savageriders.com/pics/savage/P4181658.JPG http://reelthing.savageriders.com/pics/savage/P2021636.JPG |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Jack_650 on 04/20/07 at 08:13:00 Having yet to really tear into a bike's guts I have a question. Can the chain tensioner be gotten to to perform this chore without dis-assembly of everything? I've got over 15k miles on mine, 5k of it interstate miles I put on during a long trip, and it seems from the reading here that I should be checking into something like this. I'm going to guess a lot has to come off to change the chain, but that's something I would prefer to save for next winter at the earliest. Now if this were a task that could be done without having to spread the whole engine all over the south forty . . . Jack |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Kropatchek on 04/20/07 at 09:08:57 Jack_650 wrote:
Dont be :o What you remove is the cover only, do it when you change oil. For closing up the cover you need a new gasket, that's all!!! |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Savage_Rob on 04/20/07 at 09:15:24 Thanks for posting the pics Reelthing. To me this seems to be a truly simple (and therefore elegant) solution. It seems the piston might even have room for a slightly longer extension and a third hole, though I'd want to measure to be sure. I am considering this mod. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 04/20/07 at 09:25:06 By the time you need a third hole, the chain will rub on itself. ;D If you are carefull and lucky, you can reuse the gasket. Mine came off fairly clean. A little dab of sealant around the oil passage at the top just to be sure. The worst that could happen is you have to take it off and get a new one. ;D |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Oldfeller2 on 04/20/07 at 20:52:10 Now this sounds like the kind of tensioner mod that makes sense to me. You just do it just once per total chain/guide lifespan. Hey, I've got both a welder and a drill press and a disc grinder/belt sander available to me. Now for the detail questions -- is there anything about that second hole that would require the steel to be rehardened, or would mild steel stock be OK for that tab and that second hole? Is there any long term "wear factor" to that new hole? I guess you'll find out as you pile the miles on up and up .... Did you reuse the existing chain guides? Did you rebend anything about the guides when you put it back together, or did you just distance out the second hole to bring you back into the full click position? I guess you'll answer the questions about how much chain wear the chain and chain guide system can take by doing it. This trick might give you something on the order of 30,000 miles total life ??? This still is a relatively short total life (compared to cars, anyway) and is thought to be due to the relatively long length of the chain and the fact the tensioner clicks under some sort of tension kickback duress condition and maintains that higher tension for a bit. (promoting several periods of faster chain stretch and guide wear as it clicks each time) -- our chain rides the pitchline of the sprocket gear teeth and it will see a constant series of stretch-compact-stretch-compact every trip around the system as the chain stretches more and more and more so it will wear faster and faster as the miles pile up. Dumb question -- do we really need all the spring tension the fully compressed spring gives? Obviously we may not get anywhere near that level of spring tension when we move out to the almost coming apart stage (but it still controls the cam chain slop or we'd be hearing it). How much slop does it take to have enough slop to skip a tooth on the bottom sprocket gear? Have any of you "got it all apart right now" guys ever tried to find out how much slop it takes? I bet it is more free slop than you'd think as during the tooth skip you'd likely have to space out the chain to ride on top of the gear teeth for part of a turn and that would take a LOT of free slop to accomplish. I bet it would be real noisy if it happened when you were rolling at speed, too. BAM!! Backside chain guide would get bent up for sure. ----------------- new thought ----------------- That quiet backfire that sometimes happens after you turn the motor off (and the piston is venting compression) -- is she turning backwards part of the time when she does that? Now that sort of reverse motion is when you'd likely skip a tooth (if you had enough slop to play with that is). Is that sort of "reversal of normal motion" is this what the heavy chain tension and clicker system is all about? Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Reelthing on 04/20/07 at 21:04:59 Of all the ?'s the only one for me is the back fire - most likely the piston is at a dead stop when the bang happens as this looks to be built up mixture in the pipe/muffler- sort of neat the spot colors on the muffler -these seem to be little fires that are sustained by puddled fuel - add enough fresh air and bang he goes. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 04/20/07 at 23:26:00 I got my replacement parts today, but didn't get the mod'd tensioner. I'll try to answer the chain slip question. but what been said before is the tensioner has to come apart before the chain will slip. The tension on the chain is highest when the rear chain has its straightest path. So, with the new slavy plunger mod even with the plunger fully in, its less tension than when new. I think the plunger is hardened for wear against the pawl. And not for strength. With current chain stretch, I estimate the chain will go to 50k miles. ;D |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by justin_o_guy on 04/21/07 at 03:14:27 When I looked at the chain, the old one, measured it out & calculated the percentage of total allowable stretch I was at, I calculated the chain life to be 20 to 21,000 miles.I was just shy of 15,000 miles when I pulled it & was at 5.1( if I remember,maybe 5.2 inches If need be I can measure again) That may be a bit different riding styles, I ride like my hair is on fire more often than not. If a fellow rode off easy from the stops & didnt wind it out before changing gears & didnt spend much time at 65 & up, then I would expect to get 30 or so out of it. maybe more. Peg draggin, hot rodding types get less. That'd be me. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 04/21/07 at 08:00:29 I do get concerned with the numbers that are some time quoted for the chain stretch. The SSM says the limit is 128.9mm (5.07") from center to center. Now every machinist knows how to measure c2c without guessing where the center of the pin (or hole) maybe. And it's easy for them as they usually (at least now of days) have a digital caliper. With these wonderful measuring sticks to measure c2c place the jaws over one pin and reset it to zero. Then every measurement made will subtract one diameter. So if you measure from the outside of one pin to the outside of another, you automatically get the c2c measurement. For those of you that don't have a digital, add the diameter of one pin to the requirement. 128.9mm(5.07") + 2.95mm(.116") = 131.85mm(5.191") BTW no need to count the number of pins, just start with 5" and go to the next longer pin. If that doesn't work then I sure do want to see your chain :o as it's likely to be the most stretched chain ever seen. And I think it's been said that a new chain is 5" long, so if you measure less than that, try again. ;D |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Oldfeller2 on 04/21/07 at 09:14:01 Now when the chain is stretched some on the drive side it acts to retard the cam lobe motion and retard the opening and shutting of the valves somewhat, right? So, running your cam chain to maximum chain stretch/mileage life would be "safe" to do but it would cost you a bit of power and efficency out at the tag end of the "stretch" period, right? Anybody formed a guess at the degrees of retardation you might get at maximum chain stretch? Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 04/21/07 at 10:16:18 With .07" chain stretch you'll get almost 7° cam timing retard. ;D |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 04/29/07 at 22:17:46 Got my new mod'ed tensioner assembly in the bike. http://www.savageriders.com/verslagen/CamChainClub/fixed.jpg This is using the worn stock guides and chain. Plunger projection is 5.6 mm The new hole is 5/8" from the original one. The pin and slot travel limiter has 1/2" of travel. Available space between up and down chain is about 1/2" The mod is not simple, but most reliable IMO. The only part I'm worried about is the stop pin. When the plunger is again projected out 19mm, the plunger will stop. Hopefully just before the chain begins to rub on itself. So slightly less travel or less space between the holes in the tab would be beneficial. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Kropatchek on 04/30/07 at 09:35:36 Is that the tensioner I sent you? You made a groove in it. Looks nice and simple your mod. Congrats, hope you sell plenty of them. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 04/30/07 at 11:45:23 Thanks Kro, Yes, That one is from you. If that is typical of the parts we are throwing away, I'll have a lot of parts to rework. I did catch mine before any real damage occured, only slight deformation of the end. Will be very easy to clean up. And steveh sent me a set that I would have no problem using either. After putting in the travel limiting slot and pin, the plunger will not put a strain the end of the housing. I didn't plan to mass market these, but I can take a hint. I will refine the dimensions of the slot to prevent the chain from coming in contact with itself in the next lot of parts. slavy/verslagen mod... slagen mod... slaverslagen mod... verslagen/slavy mod... verslavy mod... verslagavy mod... oh hell... ;D |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by K1200LTryder on 04/30/07 at 11:55:00 That is one hella nice mod there Verslagen. Me thinks you should contact Suzuki and sell it to them... Better get a patent first !!! |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 04/30/07 at 13:46:19 Being an engineer with patents already... there's no drive to get another. Besides, my dad once tried to sell his patented idea to the manufacturer. They declined. He went into production and sold a few. It showed up in the product line the next year and he was out of business. Not that it was a big business. They had a poor product (at a reasonable price) before and now that they are thieves, I'll never go their way again. He did sell all his stock and the original equipment. :P |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by trooper3 on 04/30/07 at 17:36:32 I'm new here , but not to bikes, been riding for 35+ years, mostly sport bikes and dirt bikes. I bought a used 87 Savage for my sister to ride for $500 and have been using this site to rebuild it over the last month, scrounging various parts etc. It has been great fun because the Savage is so simple, did all normal maintenance stuff, valves, plug, air/oil filter, brakes etc and the bike is running real well. It has about 8000 miles on the odometer but not sure if that is correct. I've put about 300 miles on it debugging and adjusting the carb, bedding brakes etc and was about to let my sister have it for this weekend when I noticed a random metallic ticking/clicking coming from what appears to be the righthand cylinder/clutch cover. I've adjusted the cam chain tension on old 4 stroke dirt bikes when they made that "loose" noise but I never heard anything like this. Doesn't sound to me like a loose cam chain, only seems to happen at lower rpms with little or no load on the motor and is very random and discontinous. Is more prevelant when the bike is hot. It almost sounds like someone left something in the clutch side cover and it gets picked up every now and then and whipped around. Could this be the infamous cam adjuster flipping back and forth, about to pop out? The guy before me said he did the clutch and had part receipts but who knows? It does look as if the gasket has been off before so maybe he was in there and left a "souvenir". I just ordered a clutch side gasket from RonAyers and plan on pulling it apart but my sister is chomping at the bit to ride it and the weather in Ohio is about to break. I just wondered if anyone could tell me if this could be the cam chain tensioner noise when it is almost ready to fall out. I'm a mechanical engineer myself and like the mod you guys have come up with and will probably go this route (ie. weld another piece on the adjuster and drill a new hole) if it needs it. I just hate to have to tear it apart right before she gets to finally ride it (she had a Rebel before!) but if that tensioner drops out...well, I guess I would have a lot of good, non-engine Savage parts for sale on the Marketplace. I only have about $650 in the whole bike and it is a blast to ride, maybe even thinking of getting one for myself in my "old age"! Thanks for the help and this board is great... sorry for the long post, just got excited from the last ride, dragging the Savage pegs all over the neighborhood. Rick C. 1998 VTR1000 1997 KTM300exc 1993 KLX650 1987 LS650F Savage (for the sister, maybe) |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 04/30/07 at 19:19:26 If the tensioner came apart, I think you hear a lot more noise then a tinkle. The gasket for the clutch cover is tall on the bottom and stuff could get caught in there, maybe get washed out from time to time. But anything floating around in there is trouble waiting to happen. As far as the gasket goes, you may be able to take it and reuse it. When I took mine off, it came off clean and I may have been able to reuse it, although I had no intensions of doing so. Others have made the same comment. Welcome to the board ;D |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by trooper3 on 05/01/07 at 02:33:20 Yes, I was thinking the same, but wasn't sure if there was a unique sound to an "about to fail" cam tensioner. Like I said the chain sounds ok to me, not loose, but that doesn't mean the adjuster isn't at the end of its travel and about to fall out. I ordered the gasket as a precautionary measure since I am probably taking the cover off this weekend. Being a planner I am planning for the worse. The best could be a non-hardened piece of ? that was left in there, hopfully not a broken clutch spring. Had those on dirt bikes. Thanks. Rick C. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 05/01/07 at 09:10:28 Yes, best thing is to open her up. The cam chain guides are spring steel with a plastic overmold for friction. We've seen posts where the plastic sheds. On mine, the tensioner was almost ready to let go. I don't recall hearing a tick-tick, but my hair was standing up so I must have heard something. Once the plunger get to end of travel, it gets c0cked. Maybe it can flop up and down. The primary drive gear is very close. Maybe that's the tick-tick. ;D |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 05/05/07 at 15:32:30 New rear guide, plunger projection is now 4.5mm There was a little wear on the radius part and it was apparent that the chain wasn't riding in the groove. Back to the wrench I go ;D |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Max_Morley on 05/05/07 at 16:00:54 Yes mine clattered like a loose valve on an old chev 6 cyl. Checked the valves and adjstment was OK so looked futher. Found the spring loaded tensioner about ready to pop apart. Alum housing was worn badly out of round. At the time I thought it might have been because I like to run my more long stroke thumper like. Been keeping the R's up in 4 th and 5th since. Max |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by trooper3 on 05/06/07 at 05:11:29 Thanks for the replies, I haven't taken the cover off yet, but probably will next week when we get rain. The weather here (NE Ohio) has been so nice and I wanted to take the opportunity to let my sister "learn" how to ride a bike again, mostly parking lots. So far, so good, no increase in the random ticking but is sure hasn't gone away. After today the bike will probably get mothballed until the clutch cover gasket shows up. I should have ordered a tensioner too since if it is about to fall out there is a good chance that the bore is worn so bad I wouldn't want to use it again. I just couldn't stomache paying the money for the tensioner until I had the cover off. If the tensioner is about to pop out I am planning on doing the mod listed here since I have a MIG/torches and full access to a machine shop. I was also going to get a hardness reading on the tensioner prior to welding or modding it but I don't see a problem with using a MIG on the hole end, it should keep most of the heat away from the cylinder/piston side (which may be hardened for wear). I will keep people posted. The collective info on this site is better than any manula I've ever had! Rick |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Greg_650 on 05/06/07 at 06:23:09 Max_Morley wrote:
Another one... |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by justin_o_guy on 05/06/07 at 09:56:26 Remember the posts earlier. people ordered the "tensioner" ecpecting the spring loaded part & got the rear guide, whic touches & does tension the chain. The Tensioner Adjuster is the spring loaded part. IF I remember correctly, make sure you know what you are prdering or risk disappointment. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Peter_the_blacksmith on 05/13/07 at 08:06:13 Verslagen1, would you mind if I put up your picture of the re-built camtensioner on the Savage Club Finland site ? www.savageclub.org |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 05/13/07 at 10:47:23 I don't mind at all. Please credit me though. After reading both manuals, and this forums threads 10 times, tightening every bolt four times, scraping, and polishing, I finaly got it back together. And went for my first ride this morning. My 1st major wrenching in 20 someodd years. And she purrs again! dam I'm happy. So happy I nearly plowed into the back of a van with no brake lights. Now that I'm sober again, I can get back to business. After I put a 1000 miles on her, I'll open her up and check the state of the tensioner. If anyone would like one of these made up for them, I will open a store in the marketplace. I have access to certified welders and a mill. The option will be new or rebuilt parts. ;D |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by trooper3 on 05/13/07 at 14:14:25 Well I opened my sister's bike clutch cover to diagnose the intermittent ticking (she parking lot crashed and won't be riding for awhile). Low and behold, I am (or she is) a member of the imfamous cam chain tensioner club. The ratchet was out of the last serration, c0cked sideways and ready to let loose soon. I tried pushing on the tensioner to get it to come out completely, it moved about .10" but still wouldn't let loose, so I'm not sure how many miles were left on her. So, versalgen1, how much for the mod, either if I send you my parts or if you purchase new ones? How long to get the parts? I am toying with the idea of doing it myself but I don't have a ton of time because of my son's graduation. Please let me know what you charge and expected turnaround time (if I send you mine, the bore is worn some). I am taking the parts in to work to get a hardess measurement on the tensioner rod and also to get the spring rate of the spring. I am curious as to how much it is and how much it drops as the tensioner adjusts out. If I get time I will try to post pictures. I wish I would have recorded audio of the intermittent sound that it made because it wasn't there 500 miles or so ago. Thanks. Rick C. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by trooper3 on 05/13/07 at 15:29:00 This is what was making that intermittent ticking sound, like there was a little piece of metal getting flipped around inside the clutch cover (if I was lucky). The tensioner rod was close to coming out of the body on my sister's 1987 (supposedly has around 8000 miles, doubt that!) Whole Cover http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007/05/13/bikepics-897347-800.jpg Close up of tensioner, ratchet is off of last serration in rod, out of travel http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007/05/13/bikepics-897343-800.jpg Chain is within about 10mm of touching itself http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007/05/13/bikepics-897349-full.jpg |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by K1200LTryder on 05/13/07 at 19:34:55 I put mine (erstaz hers) back together with the plunger mod welded on the end...5/8" center to center. The timing chain itself was on the low side of max stretch. I also replaced the rear guide because it was quite worn. I tried putting a 'bow' in the rear guide, but it sprang back to the original shape, and I was afraid if I tried bending any more that it would kink. With the new ADJUSTER, and modified plunger, it sticks out of the housing 6MM. The engine now idles at such a low RPM, that I can darn near count every firing stroke of the piston, but I have turned it up to about 600, but it will not die. The valvetrain is quiet as a church mouse, and the bike has more power than I thought it would. I even let the previous owner ride it today, because I did not have a clue on how the bike was supposed to run...the previous owner want's the bike back, and want's me to work on the 3 other bikes that they own. Wife sez NO on both counts....LOL |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by K1200LTryder on 05/13/07 at 19:38:53 ...and BTW, Mr trooper, from the looks of your pics, if you get the extension welded on what you have now, all you would need is a clutch cover gasket. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 05/13/07 at 20:16:34 I don't beleave you should completely ignore the SSM and just weld the tab on. Even though my own measurements show my chain only had .01" stretch, others have claimed the max .07". At 8k miles you are probably ok, just be forewarned. Other items to consider: Any leaks? good time to get at them is now. Condition of tensioner guide? with the adjuster off, look at the wear of the plastic. any cracks? If looks like any part will come off, it's time to replace. good luck ;D |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Kropatchek on 05/14/07 at 00:44:46 K1200LTryder wrote:
Better raise the idle to Suzuki specs. 1100-1200 RPM. Gives the head the oil it's needed. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by trooper3 on 05/14/07 at 03:24:44 Thanks for all the advice, being an engineer I am going to investigate this further. I have noticed no cracks in the guides but I have to look again when I have more time. So far I have no oil leaks from the dreaded plug so I am good to go there. I've been through most everything on the bike so far and the 8,000 miles seems reasonable, original brake pads and shoes (now replaced), stock carburetor (now rebuilt with 2/3 space and bigger pilot jet) .... the only thing that seems out of wack mileage-wise is this cam chain tensioner thing. It amazes me that if the mileage is correct that this design can wear that fast. Something doesn't make sense, chains do not stretch( ie yield, if they were loaded that high we'd all be in trouble), they wear as do all the other components of the drive; gears, bearings etc. I wonder how thermal expansion between the crank and cam change the centerline distance the chain operates at and if things look a lot worse cold than hot (although my ticking noise was intermittent more often when hot). Like I said, I have to think about this more, now I've got to get to work. Thanks again for everybodies help. Rick C. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by trooper3 on 05/14/07 at 15:49:32 OK, I took some measurements at work just for informational purposes on my used cam tension adjuster. I measured the hardness of the eye end of the piston/rod using a Rockwell Hardness tester (C scale) and measured the spring rate as the tensioner extends on our spring force deflection machine. The piston/body is hardened steel, between HRc 53-55. I can't really tell if it is case hardened or thru hardened, it would have to be sectioned up (read that destroyed) and I would have to run a microindentation or microhardness test a radially points through the part using Vickers or Knoop tests to see how the hardness varies. For reference purposes, a Grade 8 bolt typically has a hardness in the range of HRc 33-37. The piston/body is significantly harder and stronger than a Grade 8 bolt. I measured the spring rate of the compression spring on our rate measuring machine. My spring had a rate of @ 3.9 lbf/in. I also measured the force to just hold the piston from ratcheting to the next position at both extreme assembled positions (ie. highest and lowest forces). With the piston all the way into the bore it took @ 6.8 lbf to hold it from ratcheting to the first position outward, whereas with the piston about to come out of the bore, on the last serration, it took @ 3.3 lbf to hold it in. Like I said, being an engineer I am curious why this set-up seems to cause problems in engines with what I think is minimal mileage. No one seems to have good data on how much the tensioner sticks out when the engine has little or no miles. It would be better to have data with some break-in miles because I am sure the initial wear-in is considerable as things seat together. Looking at a freshly built engine with new cam chain parts would most likely be a lot different than looking at one with 500-1000 break-in miles on it. Just put a new chain on a bike, set the chain slack and run it for a few hundred miles and then check it again. I bet you have to adjust it tighter (I have done this so many times in my kids and my years of street and dirt bike riding that I would like to forget it). After the initial adjustment and wear-in period things tend to "quiet down" and the adjustment period is much, much longer. One other thought I had was how much the thermal expansion/growth of the aluminum parts between the crankshaft centerline and cam centerline at temperature tightens the chain. We only have the ability of looking at the tensioner assembly in the cold state when I believe it would be at its loosest. Does running hot cause the chain to be overtightened and accelerate its wear(since the ratchet is one-way ( probably pops to the next notch when cold and maybe is then overtight when hot)? Just thinking out loud. Hope someone eventually figures this out. Rick C. (whose sister is the newest member of the cam chain club and I get the lucky job of being her mechanic) |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 05/14/07 at 16:48:41 Most likely, the material is 1050 (or something like it) and case hardened. I used this material and had similar readings. And the load requirements of this part don't warrant a more expensive mat'l IMO. If there's extra wear on the tensioner guide then I would think that would be evidence of running hot taking up all the slack and causing an over tight condition. Mine did have this type of wear. At full extension of the adjuster, this might even what causes the plunger to become c0cked and oval out the hole. ;D |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by vtail on 06/02/07 at 18:09:13 Slavy/Verschlagen Nice :) mod. I was thinking from the other end and trying to avoid welding, heat-treating/hardening. Out of 4130 bar steel (or square steel) machine a small (diameter of plungerhousing) Y shaped tuningfork. Drill holes (2) in open end and bolt onto plungerhousing making sure that open end fits tight against plungerhousing. Drill the other hole with desired bore-spacing and mount to existing dowel/stud using original circlip. This all is best made with milling- machine and drill-press. I've got a drawing. No need for me to make one now since I do not have a S40 yet!! My friend tell me I'm grazy to buy a machine with a build in handgrenade whose pin gets pulled by time. But I like thumpers and don't mind tinkering. Still riding my bulletproof 650 GLi Silverwing bought new in '83. Keep smiling |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 06/02/07 at 20:18:41 There's a grenade in every bike. Our bike is cheap, so it has a short fuse. We know how to put a new longer one in now. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Oldfeller2 on 06/03/07 at 05:59:41 Vtail, Could your opposite end modification with the extension block be made as a simple kit that could be sold to members as an inexpensive drop in fix? Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 06/03/07 at 09:31:49 vtail, I don't see what you have in mind, but it would be easier to mod the attachment point rather than welding a tab on the plunger. The housing is all aluminum and easy to machine. Even Tbalam's concept of adjustment screw could be done from this end. I'll work on it. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by vtail on 06/03/07 at 14:26:11 Plunger and housing stay totally stock. Just like the german invention, so unit is re-usable when new chain and guides are installed. We're moving the the housing further forward. Thought about it overnight and we can simplefy this even more. Take a block of steel ( I like 4130 ) 20x20x40 mm. Cut a 15mm long grove (same thickness of housig attach point) into 20x20 side . (Now you have 35mm of ungroved left). Drill hole thru groved part so that when you slide it on housing, it will fit snug to the housing and bolt together. Now drill the mounting hole parallel to first hole at the desired spacing ( say 15 to 18 mm ) To be able to put circlip in we drrill a larger hole from th top (90 degree offset) thu the second (Rearward) hole an put cirlip in with needle nos plyers. Voila. I'll make a drawing tommorrow. Keep the shiny side up |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by vtail on 06/03/07 at 16:59:03 On tuesday I'll make some wooden models so Y'all can picture it better :) |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by vtail on 06/04/07 at 08:15:11 Thought about it some more, For this last solution there might not be anough room on the pin and you'd have to use an Omega circlip. Anyway I'll make a wooden model and I might post it (picture) on Wednesday. :) |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by borne2fly on 06/04/07 at 09:20:52 How about .............. simply remove the spring inside the tensioner adjuster housing? It would then become a manually adjusted tensioner. I don't have the bike or a manual in front of me now, but I seem to recall that we can see the adjuster through the oil filter inspection plate. If so, then whenever we change the oil filter we could also give the adjuster a shove and see if it advances to the next click. If the next click happened to be the end of the rope then we might be able to see or feel it do something odd right then and there before it damaged anything.. Several folks suggested that the cam chain stretch might be due to the tensioner always racheting forward when the engine is cold, so that when the engine warms up and expands this would result in an overtightened chain. A manual adjuster would lend much better control over this sort of thing and possibly improve the chain life. Whaddya think? |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by vtail on 06/04/07 at 10:16:05 Steel expand when hot. We've all seen pictures of railroad traks buckled by extreme heat because there was not enough expansion space between tracks. So the chain is longest when hot and that,s when the tensioner adjusts to the next notch. The spring might not be strong anough to work without the ratching mechanism. However one could maybe remove that mechanism, drill a tiny 1/16" hole thru the TOP of the housing (at the bottom) of plunger hole, campher it with a 1/4" drill (like countersinking). Fill housing with oil, put in spring,put in piston, compress for installation (excess oil will come out of hole,and countersink acts like miniature reservoir filled from splash oil ) You now have a mini shock absorber. A slightly stronger spring might be necessary. ::) |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by vtail on 06/04/07 at 10:27:44 Oh and you'd have to gove the bottom on plunger for an o'ring to seal. Maybe to complex so I'll stick with my first solution. ( Y shaped steel extension) :) |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 06/04/07 at 11:27:42 there's no access to the tensioner thru the oil filter cover. However, with right piece of sheet metal, you could create a piece that could be accessed thru the oil fill. BTW: I ran numbers on the expansion of the chain and cylinder. The cylinder grows faster than the chain. And I think the cylinder is more apt to be hotter than the chain is. So, most likely adjustment occurs at peak heat. Shock absorber idea: the fit between the plunger and housing is already tight. Add a little oil and it's in hydraulic lock as there's not a vent on the backside. Which might negate the problem of overtight adjustment. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by borne2fly on 06/04/07 at 11:56:37 verslagen1 ....... I still like the idea of pulling out the tensioner spring. But without any access through the oil filter area I'm going to have to cut an access port into the housing. It sounds a little brutal, but anything as finicky as this tensioner thing warrants some means of easy inspection. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by borne2fly on 06/04/07 at 11:59:24 verslagen1 wrote:
If the cylinder grows faster than the chain, then wouldn't the chain be looser when the engine is cold? |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by vtail on 06/04/07 at 15:56:50 :)With all due respect, if you read it again I did drill a 1/16 camphered venthole on top of the housing bottom to prevent hydraulic lock. Cylinder head temps should be ideally between 325 to 375 degrees (450 to 500 max) measured at the sparkplug hole. On aircraft we run both a cylinder head temp (CHT) and an exhaust gas temp (EGT) gauge. Verslagen you're right, the timing chain probably runs in the naborhood of the oil temp, somewhere around 180 to 200 degrees. :) |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 06/04/07 at 17:10:39 borne, agree with you. I'd thought of an access port before but found out that the oil cover limited the size. I would cut a hole and fit a pipe plug to it. Maybe you can find one in aluminum that you can polish up. Vtail, sorry, I read thru it between bites and swallers. And really was refering to stock. I got one of them cheap temp gages and measured the temps 10 min after I got home. head 185°F, cylinder 215°F, case 165°F. Tomorrow I'll take it again right after I get off. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by borne2fly on 06/04/07 at 18:00:12 verslagen1 ..... do you think the adjuster is overtightening the chain? This is one of my main reasons for building a manual tensioner. I'm hoping that a properly adjusted manual tensioner will extend the chain life to something more acceptable, and that I wouldn't have to fiddle with it any more often than a valve adjustment. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by vtail on 06/04/07 at 18:17:23 Oke, here is the drawing. I think it's pretty clear of how to make this. Make your own desired bore-spacing (15-18mm) between holes http://www.bikepics.com/pictures/921525/ |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Oldfeller2 on 06/05/07 at 16:25:38 This form of adjustment could be cut out of a bar of decent aluminum rectangular stock with a router table and a carbide dual flute router bit. Then it could be sliced into the proper thickness with a miter saw. Then the slices could be drilled on a simple jig clamped to a drill press. Can we assume the standard Suzuki aluminum outer piece is consistent enough in its dimensions, enough so to make up a cheap fix kit that a member could just buy outright for $35 bucks? Oldfeller |
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Title: .Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by vtail on 06/05/07 at 16:58:27 You got it and yes we can assume that the housing is consistent since it is mass produced. Just slide it into the fork (maybe shim it),bolt it thight and mount hole assembly back in place. ;) heel gemakkelijk=dead simple |
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Title: Re: .cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Kropatchek on 06/06/07 at 04:37:21 vtail wrote:
Heel gemakkelijk, had je gedacht! ;) |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by vtail on 06/06/07 at 08:54:24 Haha, I knew you'd respond to that Kropatchek. What do you think? :) http://www.bikepics.com/pictures/921525/ |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 06/06/07 at 10:02:21 Dam, gotta change my concept. :o Good going Vtail. You might concider making it a sandwich, Al. block on top side and Thin steel plate on the bottom. This way, if you want to use the stock config, all you need is a washer. And a jam nut on top, you'll never worry about this coming apart. ;D |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by vtail on 06/06/07 at 13:27:38 Now we are thinking. ::) Another option; out of a strip of mildsteel cut 2 pieces and bend each piece 90 degrees followed immediately by another 90 degrees in the origional direction. Kind of look like a S. Now put together like a Y shape. How simpler can we get? When I got to the USA in '65 ( born in Holland) one of the first things I learned was KISS (keep it simple stupid).Got drawing but forgot camera. I'll post it tommorrow. :) |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 06/06/07 at 13:53:09 I think what you are referring to is a 'z' bend. There should be plenty of clearance on the backside of the adjuster for the added material. ;D |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by vtail on 06/06/07 at 14:55:12 You Got it ;D |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by vtail on 06/06/07 at 15:35:03 My brain won't quit. Help! Here's another one. Take a strip of mild steel, heat small area with torch and bend in nice tight 180 degree U shape. Cut to size,drill holes so it'll fit over the housing mount. Weld on extension to bottom of the U so it becomes Y. Drill hole in desired spot and mount. Material $0.10 + welding ::) |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by vtail on 06/06/07 at 15:40:33 This will look like a small Tuning Fork :D |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Ed_L. on 06/06/07 at 15:52:37 I was thinking that a single "Z" bar would work to mount the cylinder of the tensioner on. Just bend it so it goes behind the mounting hole in the cylinder and throw a bolt in. Then mount the other end at the regular spot in the engine using the "c" clip. The only hard part would be getting two 90 degree bends that close together. Still wouldn't be too hard with a torch, hammer and drill press. Could even make one out of a block of aluminum. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by vtail on 06/06/07 at 16:29:05 ::)You got it :D . Single of slightly thicker steel would work. http://www.bikepics.com/pictures/923463/ always have fun :) |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Kropatchek on 06/07/07 at 09:17:25 vtail wrote:
THink that will work, also the next design, with the steel strips bent into a "Z" shape. Wonder why Norbert from the German forum has not thought about that and designed such a complicated mod. as I have installed now. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by vtail on 06/07/07 at 09:54:17 Kropachek did you see the pictures? Check the U shape (out of mild steel) on the bottom. I does require the tab to be welded to the bottom of the U to form a Y. The German solution is beautifull and I give him credit for doing such a nice job, but it is complex. He also e-mailed me right away with more info. Also there's the possibility that the screw in the slotted space on bottom of the scissor-system loosens up. 't allerbeste :) http://www.bikepics.com/pictures/923463/ |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by vtail on 06/07/07 at 10:02:12 Also the U can be made out of 3mm(1/8") steel (easy to bend/shape) and the tab to be welded on should be the same thickness as the plungerhousing attach point :) |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Ed_L. on 06/07/07 at 12:38:06 Strange as it seems it would be easier to bend a piece of 1/8 inch flat stock into a "u" than it would to bend two "z" bars accurately. Looks like the Tuning Fork tensioner is the way to go, simple and easy to build, it's got my vote. ;D |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by vtail on 06/07/07 at 13:18:21 Yep and use a torch to aid in bending. (also reliefs stress) :D |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Savage_Rob on 06/07/07 at 13:18:38 Just call it the extensioner. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Kropatchek on 06/07/07 at 13:33:23 vtail wrote:
Goeien avond! I did check the pictures and it seems to me that will doe the job of extending the life of the camchain. I''m close to 3000 km since installation of Norberts system. Maybe I will open up the clutch cover to have a look-see. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 06/07/07 at 13:41:49 Kro, when you get in there... put in a lock washer like the ones used on the crankshaft and clutch basket. I'd hate to have that thing loosen up on you. ;D |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Oldfeller2 on 06/07/07 at 14:06:57 If you are using a significant thickness of steel, just make a simple single thickness "S" form and bolt it firmly to the top of the tensioner with the flat end of the steel hitting the flat shoulder of the tensioner housing. Put a spacer under the flat pin/circlip mounting part such that the spacer and the steel thickness reference the circlip groove correctly. Keep it simple, the only task it needs to do is reference the pin/circlip pivot point reliably and be retained by the circlip reliably. Also, you could flip the "S" form and have it bolt up from the bottom side and then put your spacer on top to fill in the distance to the circlip if you preferred that orientation. I think the bottom side up looks stronger/better personally. Your spacer washer on top acts as a rotational force "buffer" for the circlip making sure no "pop it off" forces get transmitted to the circlip (not that it is going to be rotating very much anyway). Illustration provided already, just mentally take half of the assembly shown here at full natural steel thickness -- it's plenty strong enough to do the job. http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007%5C06%5C06%5Cbikepics-923463-800.jpg Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by vtail on 06/07/07 at 14:58:38 Yes, but you only have approx 5/8" (16mm) borespacing. I would not let the pistin more than 16mm out of the housing. Looks like it (the piston) is only 24 mm long It might be hard to bend a thick strip of metal in such a tight z bend. I like my last and bottom solution best (1/8"=3mm) flat stock with a thicker eyelet welded on. Try both yours and mine and see which one you like best :) |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Kropatchek on 06/08/07 at 01:29:05 verslagen1 wrote:
Contrarary to the installation instructions I used green loctite. When I have it open I will drill the head of the bolt and lockwire the bolt the aviation way. ;D Wait for pictures! |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Oldfeller2 on 06/08/07 at 02:38:48 If you can bend it for a fork, you could bend it for a single sider. Same material, same bend. Go back to the machined aluminum idea -- now just start with a piece of rectangular stock with an opposing pair of off-setting cuts made in it to make a "Z". Two holes and you are done. Now that is cheap and easy to do. Get a piece of aluminum bar stock of the right width. Make a single pass across a router table to cut the offset on the end side. (this will be the tight toleranced fit-up to the housing) Flip it over, move it in and make another pass to cut a matching offset on the opposing side. Cut to length (this will be the loose toleranced fit up on the pin side) and drill the holes (hole on housing side positioned by a jig, center distance would have to be controlled). We are getting there, almost got a practical cheap method to make the little piece. Somebody with a outer housing out of their bike and in their hand draw up a dimensioned sketch for an aluminum "Z" piece and we can try to make up a prototype for tryout in somebody's bike. Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Kropatchek on 06/08/07 at 04:55:33 Maybe Tcat, the guy who is fabricating such beautifull forkbraces, can make them? Provided someone will supply him with a proper dimensional drawing. Just a thought! |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by vtail on 06/08/07 at 08:14:05 :)Oldfeller you mean like my earlier drawing on page3 with one side cut off ? see; http://www.bikepics.com/pictures/921525/ check top drawing. I cannot supply you guys with the propper dimensions since I have nothing to go by unless one of you sends me a housing which I would return afterwards. :) |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 06/08/07 at 08:59:20 I haven't had time to work out the dimensions yet. But when I do, I'll either offer a kit for the extension or as I do now Modify the assembly for the extension and slot. The main issue I have with the adjuster is that it falls apart. To fix that I've incorporated a pin and slot. To drill the hole in the plunger takes a carbide tool that requires sharpening often. It's a real SOB. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by KenGLong on 06/08/07 at 12:54:55 vtail wrote:
Now we're really getting down to brass tacks here. This is the simplest mod by far. It extends the life of the cam chain some but it doesn't prevent the plunger from falling out. Not a bad compromise. Now, dimensions. Here's how I would determine the length of the extender piece. First, with a new cam chain and rear guide installed (and a front guide if necessary), measure the length of the exposed part of the plunger. Now remove the plunger and measure the full length. Do a simple subtraction to get the length of the hidden part. While it's removed, determine the compressed length of the spring. Now you have enough information to size the extender. The extender length should be just long enough to cause the plunger to sit as far in the housing as possible while almost-but-not-quite-completely compressing the spring. BTW, I think the Norbert mod will also allow more adjustment over time. That should allow you to "readjust" several times giving you a much longer chain life than this simpler mod. Ken |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 06/08/07 at 13:58:14 Norbert has a great mod. And it will allow the maximum time inbetween inspections. you can adjust the projection at every inspection. But there is only so much adjustment available. The plunger max safe projection is 18mm. It seems that most start out at 9mm. When I did my original mod, I stuck out 5mm with the tensioner in the second hole. In this second hole position, when the plunger stops, the down chain will be very near the up chain. Upon this I will base the configuration of the slot and second hole patterns. These I've already determined. The one thing that has to be determined is use of the 1st hole. I like the idea of not mod'ing the housing in this area for ease of using the stock hole. But making a z bend as sharp as it needs to be concerns me. The housing needs to be modified one way or another. If I'm putting in the slot anyway, it's easier for me to shave the top and bottom for the tuning fork idea. Except I'll use .06" steel plates top and bottom with a steel spacer for the second hole. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by borne2fly on 06/08/07 at 17:31:12 Slavy ....... when you welded the extension onto the tab, did you lose any of the temper in the plunger? I welded on an extension and it got the plunger very hot, and now it looks like the original hardness is gone. However, I'm not sure it ever really needed to be tempered? |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 06/08/07 at 19:12:31 You'll change your mind once all the teeth wear off from the pawl banging away at them. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Ed_L. on 06/08/07 at 19:37:07 You know I've been sitting, drinking and thinking about this and had a real strange thought, how about taking a stretched chain and removing a link, not real pratical but in theory would it work? :-/ I still like the tuning fork idea for strength but the aluminum z bar would be a piece of cake to manufacture. All you would really need would be a file and a drill press. Anybody have an idea on how much stress would be applied to a z bar?. Can't think that it would be more than the tensioner spring pressure with a little chain slap added on. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Oldfeller2 on 06/08/07 at 19:43:24 I like the thought of finding a better grade of chain that will ride the same sprocket construction. The though of changing out all the sprockets gives me gas. Right now the chain is linkless, right? Is a master link even possible with that construction of chain? Chain comes cheapest in large spools direct from the vendor. If we were to find a better grade of chain one of us could buy the spool and make up the cam chains for the group. It'd be cheaper than a Suzuki or Kawa chain from a reseller, and it would be known better stuff (or we wouldn't bother to do it). What is the mil-spec (or industrial name) that describes this size and type of cam chain? Does anybody know? Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 06/08/07 at 19:49:00 Ed, just make 2, 1 for each side. But I shudder at the thought. For heavens sake use steel. are you trying to save weight? ;D |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by borne2fly on 06/08/07 at 21:35:42 verslagen1 wrote:
Has this actually happened? I could understand if the parts were sliding past each other like improperly designed gears, but the pawl seems to rest squarely in the teeth, and I'm not sure how hard the chain pushes against the tensioner. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 06/08/07 at 23:08:27 I don't know. No one completely annealed their plunger before. But this is the only reason I can think of for the hardened plunger. Heat it to red hot again and stick it in a bucket of oil and swirl it around. ;D I just cracked open the clutch cover and checked my CCC mod. Plunger is out 5.6mm and everything is ok after 1k miles. ;D |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by borne2fly on 06/08/07 at 23:21:19 Yep, I think I better do that (re-temper it). Good news that your mod is working. If I can get my hands on a used clutch housing I want to cut some sort of access hatch so I don't need to pull the housing just to check this thing. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by borne2fly on 06/09/07 at 00:19:27 As I'm fiddling with this tensioner assembly I noticed something ..... every time the plunger advances, the pawl rocks and compresses the tiny spring that drives it. But the pawl never rocks enough to hit against the aluminum housing (near the tiny spring). until the plunger tries to come out. THEN the pawl uses up all it's available clearance and stops up against the housing (well, almost, it still clears by a few thousandths). A small piece of sheet metal jammed in this area would reduce this clearance and limit the pawl's movement so that the plunger would advance as usual, but it would not let the plunger fall out. I'm thinking of a small screw in the bottom of the housing that holds a piece of sheet metal that does just this. Hmmmmm. Those of you who have bought a new tensioner have seen the plastic tab that comes wedged into this area to hold the plunger in place so the spring doesn't push it out. Same idea, sort of. Next day ..... more thoughts in this ..... I could do it with a thin piece of piano wire. I'm guessing about .030" diameter. Bend the wire so that it runs around the outside of the housing, but grips it with a little bit of spring tension. The ends don't need to meet, but bend at least one end so that it sticks in the gap between the pawl and the housing (near the little spring that drives the pawl). This will stop the pawl so that the plunger can't come out, and the spring tension of the wire will hold it securely in place. It's almost too simple. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by borne2fly on 06/09/07 at 18:28:54 Ok, I welded a tab onto the plunger and drilled a 2nd hole 15mm out from the original hole. This pushed the plunger all the way back in to the 1st or 2nd notch. Excellent. My only concern was that the welding process removed some of the hardness from the plunger, but a few passes with a file suggested that the area with the notches was still plenty hard so I didn't bother with re-hardening it. I'll yank it apart in a few thousand miles and give it a check. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by justin_o_guy on 06/10/07 at 05:33:22 I stopped the plunger from coming out by running a piece O piano wire thru the housing to stop the pawl from swinging far enough to alow the plunger past it once it was out of teeth. I really like Old Fellers "Z" bar idea. I have some aluminum bar stock laying around that sould do it. As long as the inside corners are radiused I dont see an issue. Since I cant remember what I had for lunch yesterday, I cant say whether or not the "Z"bars would make it so the plunger cant come out without making the thing too tight on the chain when it's new. I would not build the Z bars till I have news guides & new chain. Then, I intend to do the Z bars( unless someone figures out a better way or proves they wont work. Which I really dont see happenin in either case) & have the chain Cryogenically treated. Also, soaking the chain in oil a while so it's never dry is a simple way to make sure it starts life without injury. Thanks for the sketch Old Feller & I think thats an ellegant answer. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Oldfeller2 on 06/10/07 at 08:31:33 Hey, don't thank me, I didn't do the sketch -- thank Vtail. All I did was keep the percolator cooking until the coffee got properly strong and good. They have a practical possible kit-able solution and 10,000 more miles before I have to tear my bike apart to implement it. Heck, they will have even tried it out before then and be up to generation II on the fix kit. Hope they locate a better grade of chain before then, too. Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Homey237 on 06/15/07 at 13:52:32 I don't recall where I saw it, but someone else suggested using a "latch swing bolt" or a "rod end bolt" for the modification. It would appear you "cut" off the current "eye" of the tensioner near the base of the "plunger" itself, drill the end out then "tap" the hole with some new threads to receive the latch swing bolt. That would also make it adjustable to fine tune the "length" of the plunger. Anyone care to comment on this possibility ? |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 06/15/07 at 14:43:59 Yeah, that was tbalam's mod. the plunger is hard thru and thru, drilling thru it is a b'tch. Taping it is imposible. I looked at adding the rod end on the housing instead. Difficulties here are the mount centerline is offset from the plunger centerline. Using a decent sized screw fixed to the mounting boss and threaded into the housing would have to be centered on the plunger for the adjustment screw to be long enough. Use too big a screw and it'll interfere with the spring. Using a small screw and it may snap off. I'll aquire some material this weekend and flesh out my version of the vtail extention. ;D |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by vtail on 06/15/07 at 15:29:08 Hey Verslagen, Go at it and show us pictures please. Picking up my new scoot tonight. By the time I need the mod you'll have a full production run going :) |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by trooper3 on 06/16/07 at 10:43:12 Thanks Verslagen!... just got the "original" style weld-on cam adjuster I ordered from you into my sister's Savage. The bike runs sweet, no more noise, way quieter. Looks like I have about 12mm before the spring pin gets to the end of the slot but because my chain is only about 10mm apart I figure I will hear something before it does. Thanks again. Here is a picture (and I sent those 3 circlips out in the mail to you today) Rick C. http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007/06/16/bikepics-933538-800.jpg |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 06/16/07 at 22:12:27 Thanks Rick! Generation 2 report: The material needed to make this a 10 minite job isn't commonly available. I'm looking for 5/8x1x1/16" wall tubing. Poke 2 holes in it, squeeze 1 end down to fit the exiting pivot, add a bearing to pivot on, finito! Not to be. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 06/18/07 at 18:39:46 I'll try to make the square tubing Idea work but for now I'm going with this design. http://hometown.aol.com/camchainclub/images/ccc-gen2.jpg Shown from the inside. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by vtail on 06/21/07 at 08:47:07 GREAT shot. Having never seen the back side off the housing I designed the tuning fork thinking the housing mounting point was in the middle and not off-set. Go for it :) |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by srinath on 06/21/07 at 20:47:20 I did that exact same mod (extra eyelet infront) over the winter ... glad to know I aint the only one to ahve that problem. BTW Mine came with a manual tensioner which was so bad the chain burrowed a trench in the cases. I welded up aluminum in there ... but I may swap out lower ends with one that broke a valve. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by theikeman on 07/09/07 at 23:59:46 verslagen1 Are you selling the mod yet? How much? Thanks ike |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by Savage_Rob on 07/10/07 at 04:58:02 theikeman wrote:
You might try looking in The Marketplace. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 07/10/07 at 13:20:40 In a couple of weeks I'll have them checked out and ready to go. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=Market;action=display;num=1180206459 |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by verslagen1 on 07/22/07 at 18:34:58 Oldfeller2 wrote:
Vtail (et al) this idea doesn't work. When the stock adjuster is pushed forward by 16mm, it hits the clutch cover case. And then you can't bolt it down. Here's the 1st meeting of the local CamChainClub. http://hometown.aol.com/camchainclub/images/dscn0235.jpg SteveRocket, Smokey02, & Verslagen1 We met to install the Gen II in Steve's bike. Luckily I had a Gen I with tab left or he'd be SOL. Any body else want to try them? Send me $5 for shipping and a beer to cry in. $6 if you want the mounting hardware. One thing I did notice and I've seen it on another, was wear on the back side of the adjuster right where it touche the tensioner guide. This means the guide flops around quite a bit. |
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Title: Re: cam chain tensioner mod works Post by theikeman on 07/22/07 at 20:15:44 What's your paypal id, I'll send it asap Thanks Ike |
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