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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> In the nick of time /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1171448605 Message started by Kropatchek on 02/14/07 at 02:23:25 |
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Title: In the nick of time Post by Kropatchek on 02/14/07 at 02:23:25 Herewith some pictures of a camchain/tensioner on the verge to separate. http://www.ls-650.de/community/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1171335467 The tensioner pictures are speaking for theirselves: in the nick of time. Note the following errors/mistakes done by the previous owner/workshop. 1) The locking plate of the camchaingearbolts is the wrong way around( it should cover the locating pin hole) and is not bent over. As a consequence of that error the bolts loosened-up and destroyed the thread in the camshaft. 2) The locking plate under the clutch nut has not been bent-over 3) The inside of the clutch shows oil that has been burned-up All to increase our knowledge of the Savage engine Greetz Kropatchek ;D |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/14/07 at 05:18:07 That is a mess. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Savage_Rob on 02/14/07 at 05:19:06 Wow! Seriously just in time! |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by franch on 02/14/07 at 08:03:02 thats about how far out mine was at 28000miles on the odometer. a close up may show all the cracks in the tensioner. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by SavageDude on 02/14/07 at 09:08:24 So what lesson can we learn here? Pay attention to details. I would take picture of what I'm about to disassemble so at least I can use for reference when it's time to put it back together even if I have service manual next to me :o |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Ed_L. on 02/14/07 at 15:46:06 Maybe it's me but the clutch nut looks like it has a crack in it also. :-/ |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Savage_Rob on 02/15/07 at 06:20:02 Ed_L. wrote:
Looks like it to me too. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/15/07 at 07:58:01 I'll be darned. Good eyesight :P http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/ClutchNut.jpg |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/15/07 at 12:56:27 Well, I'll be darned...I sure am glad that this subject came up. Here is the "In the nick of time" tensioner from the German site... http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/CamChainGermany.jpg Here is what I just found inside my case... http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/CamChainGMD_1503.jpg Thanks. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Savage_Rob on 02/15/07 at 14:07:20 Still looks to be aligned but extended a bit, I guess. How many miles on it? |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/15/07 at 21:41:38 Well, considering that I've had more wrenching than riding for over a year, the bike has only 14K on it.... Hoping to do much more riding this year, but I wasn't aware of this tensioner issue and it's been 3 years since I was in there. Today, I pulled everything out of the clutch side... http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/RightSide.jpg And here is a front view of the tensioner. The hole isn't worn out like in the German photo. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/Tensioner1.jpg And there isn't any wear on the tensioner parts either. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/Tensioner2.jpg Actually I am photographing the whole process, and I'll post a topic in the tech section when I get it all sorted out. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by verslagen1 on 02/15/07 at 23:42:12 Hey Greg what I'm thinking about is how flimsey is the guide the attaches to the tensioner? Maybe it needs a guide pin on the bottom of the tensioner and a slot machined into the guide to keep the angle near constant. The nick of time photo from the german site shows the tensioner dropping down almost into the gear. Anyway some sort of engagement between the two. I like the idea of keeping the tensioner rod from coming out of it's housing at end of adjustment too. But certainly, weld an extension on the end of the rod. It's looks to me that there is not much more then 1/2" between the 2 sides of the chain. So there's the limit of how much further we can go. Do like slavy did, add an 1" of material and add a hole about 1/2" out. Can't go much further anyway. Good luck, please post your progress. I'll be following your footsteps shortly. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Kropatchek on 02/16/07 at 01:12:26 There's some nice pictures in this thread.: http://www.ls-650.de/community/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1168393837;start=all Greetz Kropatchek ;D |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Reelthing on 02/16/07 at 04:43:49 hard page to get through - it looks like he has made 10 or so of the 2 rail tension adjusters TBKS3 but somewhat slower than people expected. do you have yours yet? also looks like he is doing the mod to the suzuki oem adjuster to keep it from coming apart - is that also something you ordered? it seems he believes even at 60,000km and several manual adjustments the performance of the engine is not effected by cam chain stretch |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/16/07 at 05:15:34 verslagen1 wrote:
I don't really think that the guide is flimsey. The bracket that attaches to the tensioner is pretty stiff. To me, the problem seems to just be with the tensioner design. And when I look at the guide, I get a little confused too. There appears to be very little wear. No cracks of any kind. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/16/07 at 05:18:34 Kropatchek wrote:
I've been looking through the SSM and I haven't found any dimensions or specs that relate to the tensioner or the guides. Are there any on your site? The ONLY thing in the SSM is the chain stretch measurement. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/16/07 at 05:23:45 BTW - did anyone notice the temperature gauge in the oil filler hole :) http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/CamChainGermany.jpg |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/16/07 at 05:50:52 Quick question...off topic but Does anyone know why the site filters would block my photo with a file name like this? "CamChainTensioner_1514" My photo wouldn't appear until I changed that name. Even better still, it doesn't block it when just typed like that :P |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by TVR on 02/16/07 at 06:00:41 Greg_650 wrote:
A: File name could be too long? B: Doesnt like the underscore for an image file? C: It thinks its a silly name? |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Fat Bastard on 02/16/07 at 09:19:26 Greg_650 wrote:
Why is the angle so different between the tensioner in the first picture and the second.. it seems to me that if you straighten out the top tensioner they would be almost alike. And another question.. and please don't call me stupid if it is totally unrealistic... but.. the back plate. if I understand it right, it pushes onto the chain to "tension it".. why not do something to that instead of rigging up a hole new system.. just shorten the plate.. drill a new hole and wolla the tensioner is back in its holster.. and you are good to go some 1000 miles... |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/16/07 at 10:08:24 Fat Bastard wrote:
I think that if you follow the link in the first post by Kropatchek, you'll see the reason for the difference. My top picture comes from that site. A second hole is an idea, but maybe after I post a pic of the chain guide you'll see one small problem with that idea. There is an offset in the plate, plus the back of the plate has a welded nut. Might not be able to move the hole very much. The German site has a fix option posted too... |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Kropatchek on 02/17/07 at 09:57:31 Greg_650 wrote:
Thats the one I installed one year ago, works fine! Greg, what do you mean by SSM? Greetz Kropatchek ;D |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by TVR on 02/17/07 at 11:28:51 Kropatchek wrote:
Suzuki Service Manual perhaps? |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/17/07 at 14:12:47 TVR wrote:
Perhaps right! |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/17/07 at 22:21:13 TVR wrote:
I use the file name with the underscore & image number from the camera because that way I can find my original proof if I need it. I just tried another one with the name CamChainTensioner_1565 and it won't post that either. I changed the name to CamChainAsy_1565 and here it is. What's up with the word Tensioner or a combination of those letters? Must be a pregnant dog thing. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/CamChainAsy_1565.jpg |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Kropatchek on 02/18/07 at 06:12:03 TVR wrote:
Thanks a bunch! Greg too! |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by TVR on 02/18/07 at 06:14:33 Greg_650 wrote:
Might have to experiment with the number of characters. My only guess is the first one is 22 characters, the second is 16. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/18/07 at 07:13:20 Kropatchek wrote:
Okay...here's the thing. The SSM says to measure 20 links in the cam chain to check for stretch...and as you can see, I don't have the headcover off and the cam chain removed, yet. All that I have is the tensioner and guide removed... Also, the wear on the chain guide looks really minor. No cracks, and just a couple of really shallow grooves near the bottom end. They are less than 1 MM. What could be worn out at this point? I bet there is about 8-10 MM of travel remaining on the tensioner. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Kropatchek on 02/19/07 at 04:32:18 Greg, If you can remember the other threads about the camchain http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=RubberSideDown;action=display;num=1171207873 And http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=RubberSideDown;action=display;num=1168881604 It's still not clear where the wear is. If you like wrenching ( and have the time) you can do 3 things: 1) replace the chain with a new one and measure the extension of the tensioner. 2) replace the guide only and measure the tensioner extension 3) replace both the chain and the guide and measure the tensioner extension Measurement: the cilindrical portion of the tensioner sticking outof the housing. Let us know pls Greetz Kropatchek ;D |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/19/07 at 05:02:03 Kropatchek wrote:
I'm sure that I have read those other threads, but that's the thing. I haven't seen measurements except for the chain. As you can tell from the photos I'm posting, I'm in the engine right now just because of my curiosity. I've already gotten the rear guide out, and the cam chain and other guide comes out today. I'll measure all of them. Honestly though, I don't want to buy new ones just to measure them...:P Wouldn't it be nice to be able to just measure the guides at the bottom and know what was worn without removing the headcover and cam? |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by franch on 02/19/07 at 05:43:31 I'm thinking that the rear guide doesn't wear so much yet it ages & flexes, and so the tensioner creeps foreward ahead of the chains schedule. how to measure flexibility of a new vs old rear guide ? what about a slightly weaker tensioner spring ? |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Kropatchek on 02/19/07 at 05:50:15 I thought that you already bought new parts, sorry. Reading the previous threads replacing the chain brought the tensioner out by 8 mm. I examined the guide that came of my engine and there was( after close examination ) just an indentation near the bottom of less than .5 mm and then tensioner put by 18mm. Greetz Kropatchek ;D |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/19/07 at 08:34:56 franch wrote:
I had to think about that one for a second... Try this. First imagine the 2 points where the tensioner is contacting the chain and where the chain first contacts the gear. Then draw a straight line between those 2 points. The chain will also follow that straight line between those points and I don't think that flex will matter in the upper part of the guide. The upper part of my rear guide shows NO wear too. (more below...) Quote:
I believe the above applies here. I'll have the front guide out today to check Quote:
The spring is a thought... Certainly as the spring extends, it will exert a less and less pressure on the guide, BUT you have to remember the ratchet stop mechanism in the tensioner. Every couple millimeters the stop gets locked into a groove in the moving piston. The piston cannot move backwards, it becomes rigid at each increment, and essentially there is no additional inward pressure on the spring. The spring doesn't "bounce" in and out, if you know what I mean. So, unless the spring becomes too weak to push the tensioner out, the "locked" tensioner will maintain that straight line that I mentioned above. There should be very little slack in the chain. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/19/07 at 09:07:20 Here, try this....I tried to make a graphic that shows how I think the cam chain system is supposed to work. To me, it seems that as long as the spring exerts the correct pressure, then wear on the guides or a stretched chain are the only things to worry about. You have to remember that the guides do not contact the chain all the way up to the cam gear. They are closest at the bottom. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/CamChainGraphic.jpg |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by verslagen1 on 02/19/07 at 09:41:28 As the chain goes around the gear, the centrifical force will pull it outward so that when the chain leaves the gear it will whip out. The guides and tensioner prevent that by keeping the slack out. I think the rachet mechanism is there to prevent sudden surges from getting out of control. And the spring has to be strong enough to overcome friction. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/19/07 at 10:00:09 verslagen1 wrote:
The chain stretches from those forces and surges, as the slack increases, the spring adjusts the tensioner. Simple. It's a gradual thing. As long as everything it in good shape, it never has more than a certain amount of slack....until you have an "in the nick of time" situation where it goes too far. The spring is well oiled, too. Mine was anyway. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/19/07 at 21:07:28 Well, well, well... By the Suzuki Service Manual, the cam chain limit is 5.07" over 20 links or to the outside of 21 Pins. It is supposed to be stretched tight, and measured with calipers, but even with my Craftsman scale it is about .050" over limit. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/CamChain_1588.jpg |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Kropatchek on 02/20/07 at 03:18:09 Measure again, now with the vernier points and 21 pins center to center. If still over 5.07" , replace the chain. Greetz Kropatchek ;D |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/20/07 at 05:01:43 Kropatchek wrote:
Trust me, I was a machinist for 12 years so my reading a scale is accurate. Even these days, I can read it within a 1/32 (> 1 mm) I used the scale as an illustration, because I couldn't get a clear shot of the dial AND the chain. Unfortunately the image size is reduced in the post. You can see the full image here. http://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/?action=view¤t=CamChain_1588.jpg Do you have the SSM? I wonder because that's not the way that I interpret those brief instructions. There is a picture that seems to show "outside to outside", not center to center (or front edge to front edge, whatever). What is the measure on a new one? I wish I had a friend at the dealership. Granted, I don't want to replace the chain, but then if I'm just splitting hairs and the chain is almost out of limit, then I don't want to close it back up that way. What do ya think? |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Kropatchek on 02/20/07 at 05:31:30 No offence, I trust your experience. My interpretation of the brief description in the SSM ( at my fingertips) is to measure 21 pins center-to-center. Steveh did the measurment on the new chain and that came out at 5.00" ( 127mm) See http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=RubberSideDown;action=display;num=1168881604 Read in the German forum that a new chain was installed and the extension of the tensioner went from 18mm out to 9mm. Greetz Kropatchek ;D |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/20/07 at 05:49:00 Kropatchek wrote:
Gee, how'd I miss this topic? Anyway, I'll do a reread and a recheck today (get a magnifier and study the picture too) :) So you're saying the .070" or >2 mm will change the adjuster 9 mm? Hmmm. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/20/07 at 09:48:48 Kropatchek, how about this? I went back and looked at the manual again. I had to scan the page at 600 dpi to get close enough. Here are the specs...simple enough, or so I thought :P http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/CamChainSpecs1.jpg And here is the picture of the calipers on the chain. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/CamChainCalipers1.jpg And here I've drawn a line through the centers of the pins. Then I put arrows on the edges of the caliper jaws. I agree that "measure of pitch" is usually "center to center". So do we go by that implied measurement? Or do we go by a crappy picture? http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/CamChainCalipers2.jpg The difference is the diameter of a pin. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by clueless on 02/20/07 at 18:11:31 Greg, You should put this in the tech section. I've been following this thread. Now that I've seen most of it through the pictures, I know what to look for. Thanks! ;D |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by verslagen1 on 02/20/07 at 18:32:03 I do this with digital calipers all the time: For center to center distance; measure one pin, press the zero button on the caliper. Now any measurement accrossed like pins will be center to center. Just remember to re-zero before making a different type of measurement or you'll be off by one pin. Kinda sucks to get negive numbers. ;D I suppose you could do the same with a dial, but the bigger the pin the more tricky. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/20/07 at 20:26:08 verslagen1 wrote:
As I mentioned above, I'm fairly familiar with calipers, I just used the scale because I wanted to illustrate the measurement...I couldn't get the dial in the shot. Besides, you're cheatin'. My first calipers weren't digital :P But I think that I found another issue that's even better. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/20/07 at 20:29:18 clueless wrote:
Actually I plan to, as soon as stop finding problems and have a chance to sort them out :P I'm also planning to compile a Savage CD in the near future. I hope to arrange it like an addition to a shop manual. I just haven't finished shooting enough. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Kropatchek on 02/21/07 at 05:42:58 Greg_650 wrote:
Easy, there's too many write-ups on the camchain. Thanks for the pictures. Figures are from the German board Just now someone made a ( theoretical) calculation as follows: Straight chain lenght 600 mm, lenght extension 0,5 mm. Then de deflextion in the middle will be 12mm. http://www.ls-650.de/community/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1171962506 Make sence? Greetz Kropatchek ;D |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/21/07 at 10:34:18 Kropatchek wrote:
(Längung in mm)^2 +Ausgangslänge^2 = (Längung+Ausgangslänge)^2 Is this anything like a2 + b2 = c2 ??? |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by verslagen1 on 02/21/07 at 12:02:00 Thumper, yes a2 + b2 = c2 But it's how do you apply it. Can anyone give me the distance between the 2 cam gears? |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/21/07 at 12:21:08 verslagen1 wrote:
I am pretty sure that I know how they are using it. Right now all the parts are removed on mine. Hard to measure at the moment :P |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Kropatchek on 02/22/07 at 08:30:22 Here's the translation. I did not understand the arrow up and the 2, he means "square". Längung in mm)^2 +Ausgangslänge^2 = (Längung+Ausgangslänge)^2 a2 + b2 = c2 a - lenghtinscrease in mm ( 0.5) b - starting lenght ( 600mm) c - Lenghtincrease+starting lenght If that's the equation I still don't understand it. Greetz Kropatchek ;D |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by verslagen1 on 02/22/07 at 09:12:02 I did some calculations and the numbers are startiling. If I get some measurements I can confirm it grafically. I can also determine the amount of cam advancement for a stretched chain. Here's the numbers, please fasten your seat belts... I'll guess that the total length of chain is 600mm Max cam chain length is 5.07" or 128.8mm for the 600mm chain that will be 608.4 and since there isn't a tensioner on the other side the slack will accumulate on one side so 308.4 chain length. 608.4 is the two short sides of the triangle and 300 is the long side. a2 + b2 = c2 only works for right triangles and not what we have. To get a right triangle we can cut it half. 154.2 is now the long side, and 150 is known short side. 154.22 = 1502 + b2 or 154.22 - 1502 = b2 b = 35.7mm This is the extention of the tensioner, seems to be twice what is should be. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/22/07 at 10:29:50 verslagen1 wrote:
I guess that you still need the center distance of the 2 gears. Then you can bisect them and create a right triangle on each end. I don't think the total length of the chain is as important as the tensioner length. You can disregard the chain wrap outside of the right triangle on the gears. The intersecting hypotenuses of the 2 right triangles should provide the tensioner travel. The only missing dimensions are the relative vertical position and the minimum (new) length of the tensioner. To me, it sounds good anyway :-/ |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by verslagen1 on 02/22/07 at 11:46:25 If only it would rain for a week or two then I would know for myself. Mine is rapidly approaching 20k so it's time to take a look. I've been looking for the gaskets, found some, where did you get yours? Suzuki or aftermarket? |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/22/07 at 12:26:28 verslagen1 wrote:
Before I bought them at the dealer. I think I may get them at Ron Ayers this time. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/22/07 at 15:21:49 I tried to measure the center to center distance between the cam shaft and the crankshaft......Sure would have been nice to have a vernier height gage. Anyway... What I got was ~325 mm. Hope that helps. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/22/07 at 15:24:48 verslagen1 wrote:
Well here. I measured the cam chain again. This time for illustration I'm using a metric scale. Center to center my chain is 128 mm between 21 pins. (Reflective surface is darn hard to shoot Easier to see in a new window.) http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/CamChainSpecs01_1662.jpg |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by justin_o_guy on 02/23/07 at 18:04:55 I may have overlooked it, but is there a pic of an adjuster that is in the "New" position? That would be handy. And a pic of a tensioner with the chain at "Wo Out" position. I will be poppin th side off Monday most likely. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by verslagen1 on 02/23/07 at 21:04:11 Greg thanks for the dimension but please one more... with a chain wrapped around the top or bottom gear, what is the dimension from center to center between pins on the chain aka circular pitch. There ought to be a 2:1 ratio between the 2, so give me one and I'll have the other. And Justin, I love pict's, please post. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by justin_o_guy on 02/23/07 at 22:08:31 Guys, I will admit, I only know enough about using a comp to start it & hit a few buttons. Like a car owner who can just add gas & pay someone to change the oil. I do have a digital camera & can load stuff onto the puter. If someone can tell me how to get it to a spot where others can view it that would be cool. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by verslagen1 on 02/24/07 at 00:10:14 Hey, Justin Here, this will help: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=RubberSideDown;action=display;num=1096641323 someday I'll do this too... |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/24/07 at 05:39:49 verslagen1 wrote:
Mind ya that my measurement of the 2 gears could be off +/- 2 MM. If I'd had the engine on a surface plate with a height gage, it would have been different. Anyway, I'll get a measure on the cam gear later today. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/24/07 at 15:46:35 verslagen1 wrote:
Okay, here it is...Pin to pin chain on gear centers Camshaft gear = 77 MM Crankshaft gear = 39 MM |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by verslagen1 on 02/27/07 at 11:56:31 It's not a simple a2+b2=c2 problem. I drew it out on the cad given the 325mm between crank and cam centers, Ø76mm and Ø38mm cam chain sprockets. I made an estimate of tensioner position at 57mm above crank and 19mm radius around tensioner. For 18mm tensioner deflection versus .07" stretch per 5" it came out pretty close. Overall chain length for 18mm tensioner deflection is 781.7mm and 784.3mm for chain stretch. BTW the calculated chain stretch equates to 6.8° cam lag. |
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Title: Re: In the nick of time Post by Greg_650 on 02/27/07 at 18:56:54 That's pretty good work there. I'll have to look at that. 6.8 deg cam lag? Hmmmm. |
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