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General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Extending the life of the camchain
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Message started by Kropatchek on 01/16/07 at 06:01:44

Title: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Kropatchek on 01/16/07 at 06:01:44

Have found a new description of the camchain tensioner system.
Have a look at the pictures.

http://www.ls-650.de/community/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1168393837;start=all
It's a cheaper version of the one described before.
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=RubberSideDown;action=display;num=1166250962

Works together with a modified tensioner that cannot separate at the end of its stroke. The little plunger prevents the piston of the tensioner to leave the housing. This will be the moment to open the cover and reposition the tensioner to its starting position e.g. fully in.
Noticed camchain life betwween 9000 and 25000 Miles, or at least the tensioner was out for more than 18 mm.
What do you think of this invention?

Greetz
Kropatchek ;D ;D

Note: Reading more of the conversation in the forum.
You can copy the brackets, but there's a very important part missing without that there will be engine damage.

Wonder what that is, havn't got a clue yet.

Anybody? ?

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by azjay on 01/16/07 at 06:09:39

excellent pics! i cant read/dont understand german, but a picture is worth 1000 words in any language.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Savage_Rob on 01/16/07 at 06:33:29

I ran the text from the primary post through Babelfish and got the following.  It's not perfect but it's usable.


Quote:
mean open-loop system tension adjusters TBKS3 I already presented. http://www.ls-650.de/community/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1165368220 here now the simpler and more favorable variant, the standard version. it is up to the tension adjuster head the original kettenspanner is re-used identically to the TBKS3 here. the principle is actually completely clear, the two spannschienen in the crankshaft housing to existing threads is fastened and the slotted hole to the beginning placed. the original suzuki kettenspanner performs thereby its completely normal according to function approx.. 10,000 - for 15,000 km one should open the engine cover and look after as far the tension adjuster from its guidance stands out is this at the wear limit down by the slotted hole simply readjusted to the kettenspanner again in its original situation stands. the original suzuki tension adjusters has again his whole available away. the advantage thereby is not that of the original tension adjusters with regular maintenance oval deflects and keeps thus eternal. now some will ask themselves which at all for financial predivide brings? completely clear after thing approx.. 20,000 km should the open-loop system be exchanged, price chains approximately 105,00? plus wages if one it to make cannot. in addition the cylinder head cover must be removed each time, the cam shaft and different one divides must raus. from own experience can I say which one the head cover not repeatedly to open is than absolutely necessarily. here simply the engine cover is opened and placed behind, the open-loop system haellt with this system at least (ever after driving fashion) between 50,000 - 70,000 km!!! now everyone can figure the advantage out auerdem is void an again purchase of the original kettenspanners. the spannschienen are made of high-quality high-grade steel laser-cut and absolutely properly matching them a security characteristic (in the following photos not evidently) thereby by possibly high forces to seem oneself in the slotted hole move could not (completely importantly) the disadvantage opposite the TBKS3 is that the forces by the spannschienen to be still caught must and this faster wear, in addition the open-loop system wears fast in addition, hereby can one the open-loop system substantially longer drive than with the original kettenspanner. by the way if were placed behind cannot the open-loop system any longer jump over! the price amounts to 146,00? inclusive attachments, guidance and seal. can to the TBKS3 be rigged at any time the installation lasts depending upon ability between and two to grant. also of this tension adjuster system I let make only 15 pieces thereafter am definitely conclusion, I want to also still repair and in addition am the system a certain exclusivity to possess.


Below are the images used in the original post.
http://suzukisavage.com/images/uploaded/NewCamChainTensioner1.jpg
http://suzukisavage.com/images/uploaded/NewCamChainTensioner2.jpg

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by KenGLong on 01/16/07 at 08:11:57

German engineering at its finest.

I wonder if there are any drawbacks to this?

Ken


Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by verslagen1 on 01/16/07 at 08:55:13

Does 'guide' mean instructions?
And does seal mean the case gasket?

It would be nice to have some marks near the slot so that you tell how much life is left in the chain.
Perhaps a mark with a new chain and a mark with a chain at max wear.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Max_Morley on 01/16/07 at 08:56:12

Interesting solution, move the OE pivot pin to an adjustable plate. Disadvantage, the cam will run even more retarded that it would w/o the system, to some extent effecting performance.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by justin_o_guy on 01/16/07 at 10:35:47

I can see what the outermost plate does. I don't see what the one in close to the engine does. Looks to me like just the outter plate with the adj. slot would be all a guy needed. Unless the other somehow braces it. Maybe helping with twisting forces? I don't see how, just a wild guess.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by SavageDude on 01/16/07 at 17:19:44

I see the back plate use as a flat surface for the top one to move fore and aft smoothly. Thus provides a consistent movement for the piston. Just my thought!

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by KenGLong on 01/16/07 at 18:38:53

Maybe there's some kind of a spring between the two plates that allows for easy tensioner adjustment from outside the engine without having to remove the cover?



Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by justin_o_guy on 01/16/07 at 19:46:29

I am seeing something a fellow could do in his garage.I am startin to think the inner plate is a spacer to bring the other plate out to line the tensioner up with the chain. I don't see any hooks for springs.The only thing I can envisoin would be a protrusion with a head on it(on backside of front piece) running in a curved slot ( slot in the inner piece) to keep the top of the outter piece(where the rtensioner mounts) from moving away from the case. BUT, I don't see stresses that would cause that, so why solve that problem? Anyone see pressures where the tensioner mounts that are so severe they need braced?Looks to me like the outermost end of the tensioner rides on the "skid" the chain rides against. That would keep the putermost end of the tensioner from moving towards the engine in response to the pressure the tensioner is putting on the chain that is between the mount point on the steel adjuster brace & the engine, which would tend to twist the steel adjuster brace now mounting the tensioner. SO, I really can't see a reason for the inner brace except to space the outter one. Sure might find the reason for it if I try to build it myself, tho,,   ;) I haven't been in there so maybe it will look more reasonable when I get there.  THANKS for the pictures,, sure looks like a good idea. I am not able to see how the adjustment is made w/o pulling the case side off yet. Anyone else have a clue?

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Kropatchek on 01/17/07 at 01:12:25


verslagen1 wrote:
Does 'guide' mean instructions?
And does seal mean the case gasket?

.


Guide = (Installation) Instructions
Seal = (case ) gasket

Improving my German to English translation every day.

Greetings
Kropatchek ;D

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Kropatchek on 01/17/07 at 05:44:15


justin_o_guy wrote:
I can see what the outermost plate does. I don't see what the one in close to the engine does. Looks to me like just the outter plate with the adj. slot would be all a guy needed. Unless the other somehow braces it. Maybe helping with twisting forces? I don't see how, just a wild guess.


The inner plate is'nt there just for fun. You can shim the outer plate with washers to bring the plate in line with the tensioner plane.

Greetz
Kropatchek ???


Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by tbalam on 01/17/07 at 15:35:15

I think that there has to be a spring of some type in between the two plates. IF not then the spring that is in the tensioner would just push the plunger out when you released the allen bolt to tighten it up. the spring would have to have forward tension just enough to overcome the tendency of the plunger spring to push the whole apparatus backwards. Make sense????

JUst a thought.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Kropatchek on 01/18/07 at 08:13:05

Norbert ( the German inventer) revealed some more info

Here's a picture of the Standard kit
http://suzukisavage.com/images/uploaded/CamChainAdjusterKit1.jpg
Note the tensioner has been modified so the piston cannot escape the cylinder at the end of it's travel.
This layout can NOT be adjusted from the outside of the engine.
The casing has to be opened between 10 and 15000 miles and the tensioner brought to it's starting position e.g. fully in and the plate with the elongated hole moved.
Btw: He's asking 149 Euros for the kit

Hope this will brighten up the discussion.

Greetz
Kropatchek ;D

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Kropatchek on 01/18/07 at 08:29:21

This is a schematic of the system that's supposedly adjustable from the outside of the engine.
http://suzukisavage.com/images/uploaded/CamChainAdjusterFunction.gif

The OEM rensioner is substituted by a kind of schockdamper with a travel of about 3mm, hence the system has to be adjusted manualy every 3000 KM accoording Norbert

Or in reallity

http://suzukisavage.com/images/uploaded/CamChainAdjusterKit2.jpg

Note with the picture: chainlife >30,000KM and adjustment travel halfway.

Greetz
Kropatchek ;D





Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by justin_o_guy on 01/18/07 at 15:29:41

Except for the plunger retainer mod on the tensioner is that the same tensioner I have?
Now the need for the inner plate is obvious. It is the mount for the outter plate. The pivot for the swinging plate with the tensioner has no bolt hole without the inner plate providing it.  If the tensioner is the same as what is in my engine, I think I can build this little doohickey in the garage. I can promise, it won't be near that pretty.

Kropatchek, your posts I always read. Thanks Man..

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Savage_Rob on 01/18/07 at 18:09:45


Kropatchek wrote:
He's asking 149 Euros for the kit

So, just about $200.  That could be worthwhile in the long run if it only needs to be adjusted every 10k-15k miles.  Of course, you still have to measure the chain and be concerned about how a stretched chain wears more on the sprockets, etc.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Kropatchek on 01/19/07 at 02:00:57


justin_o_guy wrote:
Except for the plunger retainer mod on the tensioner is that the same tensioner I have?
Now the need for the inner plate is obvious. It is the mount for the outter plate. The pivot for the swinging plate with the tensioner has no bolt hole without the inner plate providing it.  If the tensioner is the same as what is in my engine, I think I can build this little doohickey in the garage. I can promise, it won't be near that pretty.

Kropatchek, your posts I always read. Thanks Man..


The tensioner is the one installed by Suzuki. The reason for the stop is to prevent a breakdown of the tensioner with the consequences of a heavily damaged engine.
When the tensioner reaches the end of it's travel and stops its movement the chain will make ratteling noises. Then its time to open-up the casing and return the tensioner to its starting position. The change in valve timing as marked before in a post is, acc. Norbert not noticed in a decrease of performance
Check the German forum for pictures of the tensioner modifications if you're curious.

www.ls-650.de
Then "motor" and read/look at the pictures, of the 2 posts "Kettenspanner"

Hope this helps clarify, at least that's what I understand

Greetz

Kropatchek ;D

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Kropatchek on 01/19/07 at 02:24:04


Savage_Rob wrote:

So, just about $200.  That could be worthwhile in the long run if it only needs to be adjusted every 10k-15k miles.  Of course, you still have to measure the chain and be concerned about how a stretched chain wears more on the sprockets, etc.


The "rejection" lenght of the chain doesnot seem the reason for replacement. IOW when the tensioner is out 18 mm, the chain lenght is still shorter than 128.9 over 21 pins, the advice/experience is to replace the chain and the rear guide. This will bring the tensioner extension back to approx 11 mm. When the tensioner piston is out for more than 18mm it will elongate the bore and the tensioner has to be replace also.
Thats what I read on the German forum.
Make sence?

Greetz
Kropatchek ;D
Kropatchek




Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Savage_Rob on 01/19/07 at 05:22:52

Does Norbert sell these on a particular site or is it simply via direct contact or what?

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by KenGLong on 01/19/07 at 06:51:39


Kropatchek wrote:
The "rejection" lenght of the chain doesnot seem the reason for replacement. IOW when the tensioner is out 18 mm, the chain lenght is still shorter than 128.9 over 21 pins, the advice/experience is to replace the chain and the rear guide. This will bring the tensioner extension back to approx 11 mm. When the tensioner piston is out for more than 18mm it will elongate the bore and the tensioner has to be replace also.


Sounds like it would be possible to gain most of the benefit just by modifying the tensioner so that the extension piston can't move out far enough to elongate the hole. You wouldn't be able to get longer useful life from the chain because you would still have to replace the chain when the rattling started but at least the tensioner wouldn't self-destruct as it seems to do now.

Ken

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Savage_Rob on 01/19/07 at 07:05:16


KenGLong wrote:
Sounds like it would be possible to gain most of the benefit just by modifying the tensioner so that the extension piston can't move out far enough to elongate the hole. You wouldn't be able to get longer useful life from the chain because you would still have to replace the chain when the rattling started but at least the tensioner wouldn't self-destruct as it seems to do now.


I'm not sure about that because the functional length of the tensioner piston will be reduced by not allowing it to progress as far.   Then resetting it and moving the bracket on which the tensioner resides allows it to continue.  Two cycles of this should approach the useful life of the chain while avoiding catastrophic collapse.  At least that's the way I understand it at this point.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Kropatchek on 01/19/07 at 08:28:08


Savage_Rob wrote:
Does Norbert sell these on a particular site or is it simply via direct contact or what?


You can contact him and see if he'willing to sell overseas. Problem will be the payment( he has no PayPal) and his limited understanding of English.
Suggest you write in English and put the Babelfish translation underneath.
his e-mail
norbert@blue-thumper.de

Hope he doesn't mind.

Greetz
Kropatchek ;D




Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by KenGLong on 01/19/07 at 08:42:04


Savage_Rob wrote:
I'm not sure about that because the functional length of the tensioner piston will be reduced by not allowing it to progress as far.


True. Extending the usable life of the cam chain is the second part of the equation which won't happen if the only mod is to limit the tensioner piston travel. Still, half an improvement is better than no improvement!

Ken

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by verslagen1 on 01/20/07 at 19:29:37

why couldn't a inspection port be added in a spot to view the current status of the freaking tensioner?
With or without the tensioner mod!  You could uncork that little baby anytime and see with no doubt when the coming out party was due.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by justin_o_guy on 01/20/07 at 22:04:33

Dandy idea. For a D.I.Y. project, anyone have an idea how to put a window in that thing? Take the case off & put a hole in it in the appropriate place & have someone weld a fitting to screw a plug into?

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by verslagen1 on 01/20/07 at 22:09:38

it was a nice wish...can't be done.  oil filter's right there.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by justin_o_guy on 01/20/07 at 22:48:28

Okay, howzabout this then, say we stick a contact on the tensioner plunger that grounds a wire to an idiot light when the plunger comes out as far as is safe? Runing  wires in to there be possible?

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by blue-thumper on 01/21/07 at 07:10:23

ich spreche leider kein englisch aber vieleicht kann das ja einer übersetzen.

probleme mit längeren steuerketten gibt es keine, hier ein beispiel von zwei ketten.

die eine ist neu und die andere hat 65 000 km gelaufen, der längenunterschied ist so gering das dieser auf die steuerzeiten kaum einfluss ausübt.

http://www.ls-650.de/techfotos/steuerketten.jpg

außerdem sind die steuerzeiten der savage so zahm berechnet das die geringe längung der kette nicht bemerkbar ist.

ich selbst fahre momentan eine steuerkette mit 58 000 km ohne probleme.

ich habe alles lange genug getestet und erst dann mit dem verkauf der neuen kettenspanner begonnen.
gruß norbert (blue thumper mit 135 000 km) ;D

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by slavy on 01/21/07 at 07:26:23

What about better oil and more frequent oil changes ?
This will save the clutch problems, the camshaft wear problems , and the cam chain wear problems. And one more thing- the crank case vent- Do not let it stay just open to the athmosphere- always make sure it is connected to the air box. If You have some kind of pod filter You've created Yourself a problem, but not a biggie- just fo to AutoZone and get a crank case vent filter and install it on the vent hose.
 Doing some mods to the tensioner is a step above the normal common sense maintenance. I've looked into it and the only mod. that everybody can easy do is the suggested in the infamous artice. Most of the bikes on the market can be converted to a mechanical tensioner, but with the Savage, every time You want to adjust the cam chain You will have to pull the right side engine cover- way too much work and mess.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by blue-thumper on 01/21/07 at 07:33:20

es ist doch egal ob ich den deckel zum einbauen einer neuen steuerkette oder zum nachstellen öffnen muß.

gruß norbert

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Kropatchek on 01/21/07 at 08:53:27


blue-thumper wrote:
ich spreche leider kein englisch aber vieleicht kann das ja einer übersetzen.

probleme mit längeren steuerketten gibt es keine, hier ein beispiel von zwei ketten.

die eine ist neu und die andere hat 65 000 km gelaufen, der längenunterschied ist so gering das dieser auf die steuerzeiten kaum einfluss ausübt.

http://www.ls-650.de/techfotos/steuerketten.jpg

außerdem sind die steuerzeiten der savage so zahm berechnet das die geringe längung der kette nicht bemerkbar ist.

ich selbst fahre momentan eine steuerkette mit 58 000 km ohne probleme.

ich habe alles lange genug getestet und erst dann mit dem verkauf der neuen kettenspanner begonnen.
gruß norbert (blue thumper mit 135 000 km) ;D

"Unauthorized translation"
Unfortunately I do not speak English but someone can make the translation.

There are no problems with the extended lenght of the chain.
Here are examples of 2 chains:
# 1 is new and the other has been running 65000 Km.
The difference in lenght is so small that it has hardly any effect on the valve timing.

Futher more is the valve timing that soft ( as opposed to racing cams. ed) that the small amount of increased lenght is hardly noticeable.

I have an engine with a chain that has run 58000 Km without problems.
I have tested long enough and then started selling the new chain tensioner.

Greetings Norbert (  blue thumper with 135,000 Km

Hope this helps
Kropatchek ;D

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Kropatchek on 01/21/07 at 08:55:53


blue-thumper wrote:
es ist doch egal ob ich den deckel zum einbauen einer neuen steuerkette oder zum nachstellen öffnen muß.

gruß norbert

Unauthorized translation

It does not make any difference whether you have to open the sidecover for chain replacement or to adjust the tensioner.

Greetz
Kropatchek ;D

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Kropatchek on 03/05/07 at 08:46:47

Remember this post?
Reading to the German forum the chain and or guides have to be replaced anywere between 10 and 30,000 KM.
With the Standard Kit the life of the chain/guides can be extended up to 50 or 60,000 KM.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by verslagen1 on 03/05/07 at 09:15:58

If the weight of this has missed you... Norbert has a BIG ruler!  :o

Norbert has gone 40,000 miles and chain has only stretched .054" per 21 pins or 5"

So, the chain is still within spec.  ;D

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by verslagen1 on 03/05/07 at 17:05:25

Oh BTW Norbert, those are cm's, not mm's. ;D

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Greg_650 on 03/05/07 at 19:12:07


verslagen1 wrote:
Oh BTW Norbert, those are cm's, not mm's. ;D

Thanks for clearing that up.  I suspected something was wrong :P

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Kropatchek on 03/11/07 at 14:54:43

Well the device to "extend the life of the camchain " is in.
Norbert did a wonderfull job as the pieces went together as promised, lasercut to .01 mm.
I wanted to replace the countersunk bolt by SS bolts but found out that the heads were turned off a little as to clear the other plates.

Here a picture of the complete installation.
I fitted a new guide and used the old ( 127.9 mm ) chain and made the adjusment at the bottom for the tensioner to be 10 mm out.
http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/2674/ks2tg4.jpg
http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/3651/ks21kw8.jpg



Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by franch on 03/11/07 at 18:14:56

kropatcheck,
that is awesome.
did he ever figure a way to adjust with the cover in place ?

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by verslagen1 on 03/11/07 at 20:48:12

You have to release the rachet in the tensioner before it will retract.  So the cover still has to be opened.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Kropatchek on 03/12/07 at 04:14:11


franch wrote:
kropatcheck,
that is awesome.
did he ever figure a way to adjust with the cover in place ?


The "Other" system worked with a damper i.s.o. the tensioner. Norbert had problems with the spring that would move the top-plate. Believe he dropped the idea for now.


Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Kropatchek on 03/12/07 at 04:17:21


verslagen1 wrote:
You have to release the rachet in the tensioner before it will retract.  So the cover still has to be opened.


You're right about that. Will open the case at the end of my riding season ( april - november) estimate 3000 km and will let you ( and everybody else) know what happened.


Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Greg_650 on 03/12/07 at 04:51:05


verslagen1 wrote:
You have to release the rachet in the tensioner before it will retract.  So the cover still has to be opened.


That looks great.  Another pioneering step forward.

Is it at all possible to install a stronger spring and remove the ratchet?

I dunno.  Just a thought.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by tbalam on 03/12/07 at 17:02:39

SHoulda posted this here in the first place.

I think I may have come up with a way to make a adjustable tensioner, that is cheap <$20 and can approx. double the life of the chain. all parts can be bought at an industrial supply.

http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007%5C03%5C11%5Cbikepics-827115-full.jpg (http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007%5C03%5C11%5Cbikepics-827115-full.jpg)

picture is as close to scale as i could make it on this computer.

I have all the parts ordered, and they should be here this week.

The basic priniciple is to use a 1/4" drill and drill out from the inside of the tensioner cavity toward the bolt hole. Thread the new hole using an m8 tap.

cut off the old flange and screw in the new bolt, see picture.

the spring from the tensioner should slide over the the bolt and thus wont change the tension from stock.  Also i am thinking that a nut on the inside and a jam nut should stabilize everything really well.

In theory if you cut the bolt so that it just sticks out of the tensioner cavity, you should double the life of the chain and tensioner set-up.

Along with the bend mod mentioned in another thread, we should be able to get on top of this thing. I think every 6k miles you go in and turn out the bolt, tighten the jam nut, and reset the tensioner, and wallah.

I will post picks on this mod and let you know all how it works.

Any input from the engineers in the group would b great.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by verslagen1 on 03/12/07 at 17:49:42

sounds great!

This would give you the ability max out the time between adjustments.

General rule: you need to have 1 1/2 times the thread diameter to thread the bolt to for full strength.
ie., 8mm x 1.5 = 12mm

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by tbalam on 03/12/07 at 18:42:26

Thanks
I think I should be able to get that by putting a nut in the tensioner cavity. I am fairly sure i can get between 7 and 8mm in the tensioner itself, and then another 5 or so with a nut. Also with the spring sliding over the bolt it should act as a stabilizer to prevent excess side movement.

My original thought was to thread the whole inner tensioner cavity with a M10 or so but then i thought that that would change the tension in the spring by compressing it to much when the bolt was threaded all the way in.

If my calcs are correct i should be able to get a total throw of about 40mm and still keep 12-15mm inside the tensioner. This roughly triple the current usable life of tensioner and chain.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by verslagen1 on 03/12/07 at 19:37:43

Make sure the spring is a close fit with the tensioner.  Check the spring by pushing it to one side in the cavity to see if there's any chance of interference with the bolt threads.  Otherwise put a sleeve over the bolt.  You don't want the spring locking up with the bolt causing loss of pressure on the chain.

Also, there's a good place to drill through the chain well.  If you remove the third fin down up to the reinforcement rib there might a good place for the adjustment bolt.  Vlier makes a pin plunger which might work well.   ;D

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by tbalam on 03/12/07 at 20:19:48

I thought of that as well. could be adjusted from the outside that way, but i reaaly balk at drilling into the cylinder.

I wanted something that was cheap, and didn't required modifying the case.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Greg_650 on 03/13/07 at 08:33:25

Not a bad idea.  How thick is the plunger at the bottom of the spring seat?

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Kropatchek on 03/13/07 at 09:37:21

@tlabam
Very good idea. Why didn'd the guy in Germany think about that.
Will ref. your post in the German forum.
One thing I read: the tensioner piston is hardened and difficult to machine.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by tbalam on 03/13/07 at 12:24:44


Greg_650 wrote:
Not a bad idea.  How thick is the plunger at the bottom of the spring seat?


IF my calcs are correct about 7-8mm, but i will get a true reading after i drill it. I am not going to do anything until the parts are here. No matter what though i am going to put a nut or other brace inside the plunger to help stabilize things.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by verslagen1 on 03/13/07 at 18:17:38

If it's hard steel, you might have to anneal it to be able to tap threads in it.  More likely it's case hardened, hard shell with a soft center.  Once you part off the flat tab you'll know for sure.  You might need to use an abrassive cut off wheel.  If it's hard thru and thru, it will be difficult to drill, if case hardened, once thru the skin it will be normal.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by tbalam on 03/13/07 at 18:18:43

[quote ea. Why didn'd the guy in Germany think about that. author=Kropatchek link=board=RubberSideDown;num=1168956104;start=50#50 date=03/13/07 at 09:37:21]
the tensioner piston is hardened and difficult to machine. [/quote]

Your not joking I cant get a drill bit to do anything, and I bought bit specifically for hardened steel. Any ideas?

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by justin_o_guy on 03/13/07 at 19:02:37

Anneal it & reharden it after drilling?

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by verslagen1 on 03/13/07 at 22:26:33

yeah you got it.
to anneal heat to red hot then cool slowly.  if done in a furnace, just turn the furnace off and let it cool in the furnace.  better to have some do for you if you don't know how.  reharden is a little more fun.  heat to red hot then quench in something, water or oil.  I think if you don't know which, the choice is oil.  
if you need further, let me know, I can ask.   ;D

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Kropatchek on 03/14/07 at 06:22:09


tbalam wrote:


Your not joking I cant get a drill bit to do anything, and I bought bit specifically for hardened steel. Any ideas?


Got an answer from Norbert. He
( Quote)
tried the same set-up (as tbalam ) and it did not work.(Unquote)
Don't shoot, I'm only the messenger


Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by tbalam on 03/14/07 at 16:08:25

did he give a reason by chance?


Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Greg_650 on 03/14/07 at 20:51:58


Kropatchek wrote:


Got an answer from Norbert. He
( Quote)
tried the same set-up (as tbalam ) and it did not work.(Unquote)
Don't shoot, I'm only the messenger

See tbalam's question?

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Kropatchek on 03/15/07 at 04:22:03


tbalam wrote:
did he give a reason by chance?


No, he did not.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Greg_650 on 03/15/07 at 05:14:57

Then you have no reason not to try anyway....right?

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Kropatchek on 03/15/07 at 08:21:13


Greg_650 wrote:
Then you have no reason not to try anyway....right?


Wrong, I have no intention to invent the wheel again.
( translated Dutch proverb)

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Greg_650 on 03/15/07 at 08:35:46


Kropatchek wrote:


Wrong, I have no intention to invent the wheel again.
( translated Dutch proverb)

Of course you don't...you've already "bought the farm".

I meant tbalam :P

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by tbalam on 03/15/07 at 15:31:54

First off,

the plunger is case hardened and a pain to drill. I did end up drilling it using a carbide tipped masonry bit, but

I cannot tap it without annealing it and i don't have the means to do that.

I think i may have found an option that gives more flexibility. I am using a steel threaded rod that I drilled and tapped. I can't see the reason behind the hardened steel, other than wear resistance, so i am going to give this setup a try. I think it'll work.

I am just prototyping things now so we'll see how it progresses. I made it a little longer than the original plunger and made the shoulder a little thicker so that i have about 15mm of thread inside the plunger. Also the fact that it is threaded allows the ratchet action to still work.

I bought 5/8 rod and then sanded it down to 14.8 mm. the threads are now flat and will not scratch the aluminum housing.

Thanks for everyones help. All of my parts should be here tommorrow so the bike should be back up and running this weekend I'll keep you posted.

Krop,
I can see why it wouldn't work for norbert, i don't think it can be done using the original plunger. If it doesn't work, Norbert will be getting an order for his creation.

;D

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by justin_o_guy on 03/15/07 at 22:31:02

I'll bet you could get rigged up to anneal & harden it for less than 10 or 12 bucks. I think a hand held propane torch will heat it red hot. The self lighting ones cost more. The ones plumbers use to sweat connections will do it I think.

Heck, if your stove is gas you could hold it over the fire with a good wire & some pliers.  

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by justin_o_guy on 03/16/07 at 10:36:15

High school? Man, are they even still Doing that? Thats's so"yesterday"...

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Greg_650 on 03/17/07 at 06:47:34


verslagen1 wrote:
What can I say... I grew up durring the iron age.

I thought knowing how to temper a chisel was a basic skill.


That and hand sharpening drill bits.

Definitely :P


Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by justin_o_guy on 03/17/07 at 12:22:25

I worked in a machine shop a while. That's something I have enjoyed knowing. Just a bench grinder & ruler & I can make one cut. Getting the angle on small diameter bits is rough.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by justin_o_guy on 03/17/07 at 12:29:21


Kropatchek wrote:
Have found a new description of the camchain tensioner system.
Have a look at the pictures.

http://www.ls-650.de/community/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1168393837;start=all
It's a cheaper version of the one described before.
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=RubberSideDown;action=display;num=1166250962

Works together with a modified tensioner that cannot separate at the end of its stroke. The little plunger prevents the piston of the tensioner to leave the housing. This will be the moment to open the cover and reposition the tensioner to its starting position e.g. fully in.
Noticed camchain life betwween 9000 and 25000 Miles, or at least the tensioner was out for more than 18 mm.
What do you think of this invention?

Greetz
Kropatchek ;D ;D

Note: Reading more of the conversation in the forum.
You can copy the brackets, but there's a very important part missing without that there will be engine damage.

Wonder what that is, havn't got a clue yet.

Anybody? ?





KROP< What's the "Missing Part"? Seems like the brackets are the whole story, just looking. Of course, not ever having replaced a cam chain I could be wrong,, waaaay wrong. You've seen the whole kit now?

I think my approach will be to "tweak" the chain guide & see what it will take to extend the mount on the tensioner.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Crusher0964 on 03/17/07 at 20:51:18


justin_o_guy wrote:





KROP< What's the "Missing Part"? Seems like the brackets are the whole story, just looking. Of course, not ever having replaced a cam chain I could be wrong,, waaaay wrong. You've seen the whole kit now?

I think my approach will be to "tweak" the chain guide & see what it will take to extend the mount on the tensioner.


Thats it! I have been studying this thread off and on all day and that should work if you could shim the guide up.
But would that cause the guide to side load and bend? Hmmmmmmmm.
No it should not if the shims are between the the slack adjuster and the guide.
Man, mine is in about a thousand pieces right now ( doing a ground up thing) but I am going to look at that in the morn.
Okay I'll admit it! I am drinking beer right now soooooo I probably missied some of the " but you can't do that because" things
In the morning ! :P


Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by verslagen1 on 03/17/07 at 23:35:13

Heat sometimes allows metal to return to its original shape.  So it's not side loading that causes the problem, it's the natural heat of the engine.  

How do you plan on shimming the guide?

My plan is to drill and tap a hole to place a bolt where it could apply pressure to the middle of the guide to help it keep its shape.

As it stands now IMHO, replace the chain if it stretches beyond .07" over 5".  Reshape or replace the guide if the tensioner extends beyond 18mm with a good chain.  

You can go further with either but at risk.  .07" stretch will retard the cam timing by 7°.  Appearantly, this type of chain is meant to float on the gear teeth anyway.  So a worn chain doesn't effect the teeth of the sprockets like chains in the final drive.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Crusher0964 on 03/19/07 at 06:54:49


verslagen1 wrote:
Heat sometimes allows metal to return to its original shape.  So it's not side loading that causes the problem, it's the natural heat of the engine.  

How do you plan on shimming the guide?

My plan is to drill and tap a hole to place a bolt where it could apply pressure to the middle of the guide to help it keep its shape.

As it stands now IMHO, replace the chain if it stretches beyond .07" over 5".  Reshape or replace the guide if the tensioner extends beyond 18mm with a good chain.  

You can go further with either but at risk.  .07" stretch will retard the cam timing by 7°.  Appearantly, this type of chain is meant to float on the gear teeth anyway.  So a worn chain doesn't effect the teeth of the sprockets like chains in the final drive.


I may have spoke to soon. I need some more time to sit down and look over the moveable guide and see what it would take to shim between the guide and the tentioner mount.



Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Kropatchek on 03/19/07 at 08:03:55

Here I am again.

Q from All conserned

KROP< What's the "Missing Part"? Seems like the brackets are the whole story, just looking.
You've seen the whole kit now?  

If you read back in this topic there was initialy
1) a camchain adjuster, manually adjusted and with a damper i.s.o. the "ratched" OEM tensioner. The case had to be opened to adjust the plate.
2) The plates could be adjusted without taking the cover off.

Manufacturing difficulties of the damper and the spring on the bottom ( that's why the 2 black spots on the picture) let to the latest kit: the "Standard" which uses the "Limited travel" tensioner and the installation of the plates.

The latter is installed in the block that's in my bike now.

Hope this clarifies thing up a bit..


Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by verslagen1 on 03/19/07 at 18:15:23

Tbalam, how's it going?  Got it back together yet?

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by tbalam on 03/19/07 at 18:25:51

Nah, still waiting on that last part to put the tensioner back together.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by verslagen1 on 04/08/07 at 18:49:48

OK, my turn.
20736 on the odometer, opened her up and the tensioner is sticking out 22mm :o
I'll let you know more as I go along, had to stop and read the manual... darn it, when I'm supposed to remove the clutch?   ;D

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Kropatchek on 04/09/07 at 13:45:46


verslagen1 wrote:
OK, my turn.
20736 on the odometer, opened her up and the tensioner is sticking out 22mm :o
I'll let you know more as I go along, had to stop and read the manual... darn it, when I'm supposed to remove the clutch?   ;D




Welcome to the "Timingchainreplacers club".

and the clutch has to come off, unless you can wiggle the primairy gear from behind the clutchbasket.



Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by verslagen1 on 04/09/07 at 15:04:48

I hesitate to belong to any club that would have that kind of member.   ;D

I've read the threads here to the point that I was dumbstruck when I couldn't find it in Clymers. :o

I'll give wigglin' a try, but I don't think that shortcut is for '96's.

About the penny trick  ???  do you lay the penny accross the top of 2 teeth of the same gear and engage 1 tooth from the opposite gear in the middle of the penny?

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by tbalam on 04/09/07 at 18:07:51

I have a 96 and you cannot wiggle the gear free. As for the penny trick I just jammed 2 pennies into the slot between the gears and then rotated the engine to lock them in place... I wouldn't worry too much about any specifics just lock up the gears so you can get the clutch nut and cam gear nut off. REMEMBER THE CAM GEAR NUT IS LEFT HAND THREAD.

Also, fyi for my cam tensioner mod. I have about 100 miles on it and am having no problems with it. I'll keep you all up to date when i need to adjust it.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by verslagen1 on 04/09/07 at 18:21:46

Dad said the same thing, shim it.
I don't got all out yet, almost.
you might have a better opinion if you already have the guide out.  But it looked like the guide is attached to the guide bracket (which is connected to the tensioner plunger by a bolt) by a couple of rivits.  If you could drill those out, and you could slip in a block to gain the added adjustment.  only I don't like it, not because it's dad idea, but because it's a one time deal and if you got a new chain you'd have to pop that back out.

Whereas I like the idea of welding an additional tab on the end of the plunger looks the best.   ;D

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by Kropatchek on 04/10/07 at 03:34:53


tbalam wrote:

Also, fyi for my cam tensioner mod. I have about 100 miles on it and am having no problems with it. I'll keep you all up to date when i need to adjust it.


Any pictures of your tensioner mod?




Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by tbalam on 04/10/07 at 06:51:34

Not yet,

But I will when i take it apart to check it. I wanted to test it out first before posting anything with pics and a how to.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by verslagen1 on 04/10/07 at 13:28:55

Primary Gear Nut - 30mm
Clutch Basket Nut - ?

Remembered to measure the primary gear nut but not the clutch basket nut.  And it was loose until I pound back the washer.  Going to buy the proper sockets on the way home, can someone recall what size these are?

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by tbalam on 04/10/07 at 14:40:02

i think it's a 27mm or 24mm cant remember... but i think it 27. It is one of those two.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by verslagen1 on 04/10/07 at 20:37:37

one is 30mm and the other is 32mm

cam chain measured 5.02" and tensioner was out 22mm

Premature death of the tensioner.

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by tbalam on 04/12/07 at 19:02:24


tbalam wrote:
i think it's a 27mm or 24mm cant remember... but i think it 27. It is one of those two.


Ignore me i am talkin' crazy. :)

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by jack8823 on 12/05/09 at 13:10:01

There are holes for bolts in engine for this tuning tensioner or i must drilling?

Check pic holes 1 and 2:

http://i48.tinypic.com/2rw92is.jpg

Title: Re: Extending the life of the camchain
Post by verslagen1 on 12/05/09 at 14:15:08

Those holes exist already.

And if you have a stock adjuster, you have to remove the cover relieve tension 1st before you readjust the arms.

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