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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Valve Adjustment /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1134936434 Message started by Ed_L. on 12/18/05 at 12:07:14 |
Title: Valve Adjustment Post by Ed_L. on 12/18/05 at 12:07:14 Just finished a valve adjustment, well sort of, on my '02. Got all the tools together, ground down a large washer for the side plug, got a comfortable chair and took the bike apart. Boy was I surprised, when I checked the lash the intake and exhaust was at a tight 5 thousands, right at specs. :D. Being a firm believer in "if it ain't broke don't fix it" I buttoned everything back up. I guess the main reason for my delighted surprise is that I bought the bike used with no record of any maintance ever being done and really expected that the valves would need some adjusting. Real glad that that I didn't take the bike into the stealership, would of been charged for nothing. How many out there have had the same sort of thing happen, starting a job that didn't need to be done? |
Title: Re: Valve Adjustment Post by SavageDude on 12/18/05 at 12:51:02 Same thing happened to me when I did the first 600 mi service on my 05 S40. The valves' clearance were all on the ball. So I went through all the trouble of taking off the tank to inspect the intake valves for nothing :). But I did come out ahead with $300 in my wallet. ;) This is why I love SAVAGE(reliable and trustworthy). Come to think of it, my wife is the same ;D. I think I'll keep the wife and Savage as my mistress 8) |
Title: Re: Valve Adjustment Post by Greg_650 on 12/30/05 at 09:27:53 I have checked the valve lash every year on both our bikes. Maybe even twice a year if I took it apart. When new, I set it in the middle at .004"....and as you state, it has never changed....or if it has, only by .001" In fact, I have loosened, adjusted and retightened simply because I couldn't believe it was correct. The adjusters may be old fashioned and not be high tech, fancy, bucket and shim, but there is little wear and they don't come loose. I lost an excuse to drink beer with this one :o |
Title: Re: Valve Adjustment Post by Mr 650 on 12/30/05 at 16:12:58 D@MN! You are supposed to have an excuse?? ??? |
Title: Re: Valve Adjustment Post by Greg_650 on 12/30/05 at 16:58:55 Darn right. But this winter I'll replace it with exhaust port grinding. ::) |
Title: Re: Valve AdjustmentThanks to helpful information Post by rokrover on 12/31/05 at 15:13:44 Thanks to helpful information from this forum supplementing my Clymer manual I thought I would breeze through my first break-in service, including the valves. Reality was not so simple, particularly retightening the head bolts. I mean, what a chore to get to – seat off, tank off, side cover off, top engine mount off, head cover off with all those fiddly bolts! At least I knew which to remove, leave in place or not to touch. Naturally I rotated the engine ANTI-clockwise to set TDC after being alerted to Clymer’s error on this site. The head cover was still snug and I resisted the temptation to pry against the fins having learned a bitter lesson doing this in the past on another bike. A firm upward pull did the trick. Ah ha – there’s that famous plug that has to come out to get to the front right head nut. I popped it out cleanly from underneath using a bent hex key wrench leveraging against the head nut. There was no sealant applied from the factory. Now to the first problem – no way could I use my trusty Snap On torque wrench in the tight clearance for the front and rear studs under the head. So I figured I’d just torque the four main stud nuts with the copper washers after backing them off a quarter turn or so. A final tightening at 24 ft.lbs. put them back near original so nothing had loosened much. I also checked the two stud nuts under the head by “feel” and they seemed good. Leave well enough alone. I popped in a new cover plug but the original looked fine. Here came the first Uh-Oh! I got the prescribed Suzuki sealant, Three Bond #1216 from the dealer and it is a grey paste unlike the factory black silicone RTV. Hmmmm….. too late now so I ran a bead in the groove of the plug and tapped it in squarely with a socket. Now came the laborious part cleaning all the original black RTV cement. Acetone and xylenes (carb cleaner) worked well. Next I applied moly assembly lube to all those pesky head cover bolt threads to be sure none seized and stripped during future tear downs. Not much room to slip the cover back in and from the left seemed best. Now I had to worry about that O-ring and breather mesh falling loose and hurry before the new cement set. Everything seemed fine so now it was time to tighten the bolts in stages. Again, there was little room for a wrench so I used a fisherman’s spring scale and offset box wrench to set the final 6 ft.lbs. Whew, back together and time for the valves. First, the automatic decompression arm had about 1 cm play that seemed excessive. Clymer says 3 to 5mm so I set that. Thank goodness I had special tappet feeler gages with offset stubby ends that could get in that tight space. Intakes were fine at 0.004” but the exhausts were tight so I fiddled about to get them at 0.004” also (middle of spec range). Finally everything could go back together. Not the easiest first service I’ve done but having this forum has been a real help - much appreciated so thought I'd share, and wish you all a HAPPY NEW YEAR :) |
Title: Re: Valve Adjustment Post by Greg_650 on 01/01/06 at 09:24:21 Sounds like a good job, well done. I'd never thought of a fishing scale for a torque wrench. Very Savage. Happy New Year! |
Title: Re: Valve Adjustment Post by Digger on 01/01/06 at 10:06:02 Rok, Good write-up and I wish you no oil leaks! Can you provide more info on the feeler gauges you used to measure the valve clearances? BTW, you can properly torque all of the nuts and bolts you encounter on this job by creative use of "torque wrench adapters." Using things like Gearwrenches, crow-foot wrenches, regular combination wrenches and small ratchet wrenches, you can make any torque wrench adapter you need. You will need to measure the new moment arm that you will have and then calculate the proper torque reading. Just remember that torque equals force times distance! I hope this helps! |
Title: Re: Valve Adjustment Post by rokrover on 01/01/06 at 13:54:27 Sure Digger, here's the link: http://www.motionpro.com/Docs/servicetools_3.html Scroll down to the bottom of the page to see the tappet feeler gauges I used from Motion Pro. They come with one blade either end, and I got the 0.002-0.003 and 0.004-0.005 (inch) pair. Note the nice slim design with stubby blades that fit really well in cramped spaces. Thoroughly recommended. |
Title: Re: Valve Adjustment Post by BS37066 on 01/01/06 at 17:10:45 Or you could take apart the $4 feeler gauges from any auto parts store and bend them. I find it much easier to use them one blade at a time. And put them back together for storage. |
Title: Re: Valve Adjustment Post by Savage_Rob on 01/01/06 at 19:37:06 rokrover wrote:
I got those at BikeBandit.com. They do come in useful. |
Title: Re: Valve Adjustment Post by Greg_650 on 01/02/06 at 07:36:48 BS37066 wrote:
Good point, and I admit that I've done that. On the other hand, the last time I tried, I broke it :P |
Title: Re: Valve Adjustment Post by vroom1776 on 01/02/06 at 08:34:23 Digger wrote:
Just a word of caution to anyone not experienced with torque: The above is only true if the force being applied (e.g. your hand or spring scale) to the lever arm (e.g. wrench) is being applied at a right angle! |
Title: Re: Valve Adjustment Post by Greg_650 on 01/02/06 at 09:14:21 vroom1776 wrote:
Nope. The above rule is still true, regardless of the angle. If you add extensions or use an offset or crowsfoot, only the applied force changes. Changing the angle requires that you recalulate the torque needed....i.e. longer distance equals lower force for the same torque. Just remember that A2 + B2 = C2 :P |
Title: Re: Valve Adjustment Post by Digger on 01/02/06 at 09:34:15 rokrover wrote:
Rok, Motion Pro just made some more money. I'm to a stage in my life where I don't feel I need to screw around with inferior tools anymore. BTDT! I just wish I'd known about these things when I was at the International Motorcycle Show in Denver a while ago. Motion Pro had a big exhibit there with a lot of their tools for sale. I appreciate the gouge! |
Title: Re: Valve Adjustment Post by Tim Krantz on 01/04/06 at 21:52:34 Digger: Can you give us unlearned the formula,for instance, using a 6 inch-long combination wrench in conjuction with a orque wrench? Say the torque straight without, and with the wrench? Thanks Tim |
Title: Re: Valve Adjustment Post by Digger on 01/06/06 at 09:23:54 Tim Krantz wrote:
Tim, Sure. The basic formula for torque is: T=F x D (Torque equals force times distance). Keep in mind that your torque wrench, while it reads in units of torque (ft-lbs) is actually measuring the force (F) you are applying to it. Since the length (D) of the torque wrench is fixed, this force can be displayed as torque. Note that the length (D) is often referred to as the "moment arm." You need two length measurements. The first measurement you need is the length of the torque wrench's moment arm (huh?). This is the distance from the point your hand applies force to the wrench to the middle of the wrench's drive square. Let's call this length "D." Let's assume that, for the example below, that D is equal to one foot. The next measurement you will need is the new moment arm you get when you add your six-inch combo wrench on to the end of the torque wrench. Measure this the same way you did for the first measurement, except you don't measure to the location of the middle of the torque wrench's drive square, you measure instead to the location that corresponds to where the concentric center of the bolt would be on the combo wrench if you were trying to torque the bolt. Let's say this new distance is D' or, for our example, 1.5 feet. Example: Let's assume you are going for 10 ft-lbs of torque, but you can't get your torque wrench on the darned bolt. You can, however, get your six-inch combo wrench on the bolt. So you cleverly hook up the combo wrench to the torque wrench (keeping the whole contraption as "straight" as possible [for an accurate torque calculation]). For the basic torque wrench, T = F x D, or 10 = F x 1 (for the basic torque wrench) Therefore, F = 10 / 1, or 10 lbs. What this is saying is that you need to apply 10 lbs of force to your 1 foot-long (moment arm) torque wrench to get 10 ft-lbs of torque. Remember from the discussion above that your torque wrench is really measuring the force you are applying to its handle. Now, with your six-inch combo wrench hooked up to the torque wrench as a "torque adapter," here are the new calculations: T = F x D', or 10 = F x 1.5 Therefore, F = 10 / 1.5, or about 6.7 lbs. So, you'll need to apply 6.7 lbs of force to your torque wrench to get 10 ft-lbs of torque on the bolt. In General: After you do all of the algebra, you can use the following formula for any torque adapter you care to piece together: T' = T x (D / D'); where T = Desired torque on the fastener D = Moment arm of basic torque wrench D' = Moment arm of the torque wrench and torque adapter combination T' = Reading you want to see on the torque wrench to get the proper torque on the fastener while you are using a torque adapter. FWIW, every time I invent a new torque adapter (I've got about eight ones I use nowadays), I write down, in my maintenance book, a description of the torque adapter and its corresonding torque conversion factor (the value of the "T x (D / D')" term). I hate to hit you with all of the math, but this is how it works. Clear as mud? |
Title: Re: Valve Adjustment Post by Greg_650 on 01/06/06 at 10:00:25 Good job Digger, but now let me muddy the water just a bit more with an addendum. Your adaptors are all calculating the distance from the object to be tightened to the point of force in a straight line....for example, if you extend the torque wrench by 1" with something like a crowsfoot then you add the 1" to your distance to reduce your indicated force. Just as you clearly detail above with your calculations.... However, there is that rare occassion where the force isn't appled in a straight line to the object, for whatever reason....like maybe those pesky upside down head nuts front and rear. In this case, you'll need to remember some of those old geometric formulas (because you can't just add the lengths together)....and use those results as D in your calculations above. That is why I tossed out the a2 + b2 = c2 formula which will figure the length of D. If the adaptor (a) is at a 90o angle with the torque wrench (b), then the actual distance D would would be found with c. That is (since I'm not sure how to enter the symbols here).... c = the square root of (a2 + b2) Whew...I could go into scalene and isosceles triangles, but now my head is beginning to hurt :P |
Title: Re: Valve Adjustment Post by BS37066 on 01/06/06 at 11:00:41 Or you could set the torque wrench correctly and put it on something accessible, like your axle, just to see what it feels like. Then use whatever dohickey you have to use to tighten whatever about that tight. Probably just as accurate. |
Title: Re: Valve Adjustment Post by Greg_650 on 01/06/06 at 11:13:39 BS37066 wrote:
Ah, the "calbrated elbow" trick. Got it, but it won't work with me. I have joints that click all the time ::) |
Title: Re: Valve Adjustment Post by rokrover on 01/06/06 at 11:36:37 In the old days we used the simple and infallible torque rule learned on British iron "Tighten till it strips, then back off half a turn" A more refined version is given by Sheldon Brown, the guru of bicycle mechanics: http://sheldonbrown.com/tork-grip.html enjoy ;) |
Title: Re: Valve Adjustment Post by Greg_650 on 01/06/06 at 13:29:02 rokrover wrote:
;D |
Title: Re: Valve Adjustment Post by Tim Krantz on 01/06/06 at 14:11:27 Thanks Digger,printed it out. |
Title: Re: Valve Adjustment Post by BS37066 on 01/06/06 at 16:56:20 Can I use that in my signature? :) rokrover wrote:
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Title: Re: Valve Adjustment Post by Digger on 01/07/06 at 11:04:06 Greg_650 wrote:
Greg, No arguments there. However, with the eight different torque adapters I've had to invent thus far (for bikes AND cars), I've not had to do anything at a right angle. Usually a combo wrench placed on the drive square of a torque wrench creates a slight offset from the straight line of the torque wrench. I've done the calculations with this slight angle included and found that the difference is neglible. Thanks for the correction! |
Title: Re: Valve Adjustment Post by Greg_650 on 01/07/06 at 12:39:39 I just added to what you very correctly started. I think this subject may have been long overdue too. Besides, as I get older, I find a little math to be a fun change. |
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