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Message started by Steve530 on 12/08/05 at 17:13:24

Title: Starting problems - It Thumps!
Post by Steve530 on 12/08/05 at 17:13:24

I just got my new, old Savage and I'm having a problem starting the engine. It's a 97 model, 3300 miles.

Engine cranks fine. Choke makes no difference. After cranking it for a while, I do smell gas.

It occasionally starts and runs for 10 seconds or so, then dies. Sort of like it's running out of gas.

Anyone have any suggestions for what to look at first? Replace the gas? Replace the spark plug? Clean and rebiuld the carb?

Thanks,
Steve

Title: Re: Starting problems
Post by Reelthing on 12/08/05 at 17:19:52

do you know how old the gas is?
what is the petc0ck on? - switch it pri and try to start it up

Title: Re: Starting problems
Post by Steve530 on 12/08/05 at 17:28:47

I don't know how old the gasoline is. It smells like ok, but I don't guess that's much of test.

I've tried the petcock on all three settings. No diference with that.

The only diagnostic, is that when it does briefly start, it's on the second or third try of cranking. If it fires up then, it willl not fire up again until I let it sit there for a while. That would be like it's flooded. .

Title: Re: Starting problems
Post by torque on 12/08/05 at 17:52:04

a similar thing happened to me i took the carb apart and give it a good rebuild and cleaning ,works perfect now ;)

Title: Re: Starting problems
Post by Steve530 on 12/08/05 at 17:53:18

I just tried the steps posted in another thread:
1) Pri for 10 seconds, move to normal, try to start with not choke, and
2) then throttle, no choke.

Neither worked.

Title: Re: Starting problems
Post by Steve530 on 12/08/05 at 17:56:06

torque wrote:

a similar thing happened to me i took the carb apart and give it a good rebuild and cleaning ,works perfect now ;)

I'm thinking that might be where I'm heading. Might be a good project for next Sunday.

Title: Re: Starting problems
Post by Dynobob on 12/08/05 at 17:59:31

Try rapping on the float bowl with a plastic or wooden screwdriver handle.

It sounds like either your float valve is sticking or your carb is gummed up.

Title: Re: Starting problems
Post by Steve530 on 12/08/05 at 18:03:16

Dynobob wrote:

Try rapping on the float bowl with a plastic or wooden screwdriver handle.

It sounds like either your float valve is sticking or your carb is gummed up.

Thanks, I'll give that a try.

Title: Re: Starting problems
Post by Dynobob on 12/08/05 at 18:09:45

You might try adding some Sea Foam carb cleaner to the gas in the correct porportion. You can find it at most auto parts.

Title: Re: Starting problems
Post by Steve530 on 12/08/05 at 18:21:29

I've heard of Sea Foam, but never used it. I'll try to find some. That'd be easier than rebuilding the carb.

Title: Re: Starting problems
Post by SavageDude on 12/09/05 at 08:53:17

Before you rip the carb apart. Are you sure that you have spark on the plug? I would check the spark plug and its operation before go at the carb. Boy, I hope that you did the spark plug door mod already ??? Otherwise, it's another can of worm to get to spark plug ::)

Title: Re: Starting problems
Post by Digger on 12/09/05 at 09:03:02

If it's simply flooded (for whatever reason) let it sit there a couple of days and try it again. If it is still no go, then press on with other ideas.

Title: Re: Starting problems
Post by Reelthing on 12/09/05 at 13:24:19

Ok had a chance to sit down and think on this....

- sounds like you have spark as it runs for a few seconds
- may want to swap the plug anyway a couple of champion RA6HCs are cheap and you can use them later to tune on the carb.

After it runs 10 seconds and dies with the petc0ck set to On - pull the carb drain at the bottom of the bowl - did a couple of ounces of gas drain out? - just wanting to make sure it's flooding and not running dry

I know of at least a couple of ways it will do this, that is run for a few seconds and flood out:

Float is sticking open - either the cutoff needle is bad or the seat or just some trash is in the way not letting it shut off the gas

The Mikuni is a slide carb - the round slide has a needle that hangs out the bottom of the slide and closes the main jet off until enough vac causes it to lift and open the main jet - if this slide is hanging because it's dirty or it can't close off the main jet because of trash in the needle jet tube the needle fits into it will do this - you can remove the seat to have a better look and pull off the rubber tube that goes from the cab to the air box to have a look at this slide it should go up and down very smooth.

The petc0ck is vacuume operated when set to On and Res - the vac line runs from the right hand side (starboard) of the carb to the back side of the petc0ck - this operates a diaphram - if this diaphram is leaking it will let raw fuel be sucked straight into the engine - you can remove this vac and see if it has any gas in it - it should not

Let us know how your getting along with this problem, sounds like a fun one.

Title: Re: Starting problems
Post by Steve530 on 12/09/05 at 15:28:49

SavageDude wrote:

No, I'm not sure the I have a spark. I am sure the spark plug mod has not bee done, so I guess I'll open another can of worms.

I tried to find a manual locally, but no luck. So I guess I'll have to remove the gas tank to get to the spark plug. Are there any instructions online for this? Is it straight forward enough that I can just get in there remove the tank?

Steve

Title: Re: Starting problems
Post by Steve530 on 12/09/05 at 15:32:36

Digger wrote:

If it's simply flooded (for whatever reason) let it sit there a couple of days and try it again. If it is still no go, then press on with other ideas.

Thanks. I think there is more to it than flooding. Sometimes I can get it to run a little, then it dies like it's out of gas. If I go back a couple of hours later, it does the same thing.

I actually got it to run about 30 seconds last night. Rev'd it up a little, then it failed as soon as I let off the throttle.

Steve

Title: Re: Starting problems
Post by Steve530 on 12/09/05 at 15:44:57

Reelthing wrote:

Thanks for all the analysis, ReelThing. I hadn't thought to remove the carb drain plug to see what comes out. I'm not sure it's flooding. I suspect it is starved for gas, but after cranking for several minutes I can smell raw gas.

I will check the vacuum tube.

I bought a spark plug today and a can of SeaFoam. My plan today is to open the carb drain and see if there is gas in the bowl. After it drains put the drain plug back in. Then I'll add some Sea Foam to the gas tank, open the drain and move the petcock to "Pri". If I understand this correctly, this should let the gas in the tank drain into the carb. Hopfully, the Sea Foam will remove any varnish on the parts. I'll drain some out and close it back up. Then I'll let it set a few minutes and give the starting another try.

Steve

Title: Re: Starting problems
Post by SavageDude on 12/09/05 at 15:54:53

Steve
It runs for a few seconds, then you do have spark at the plug. And it die when you let go of the throttle, it dies. Sound likes carb problem definitely. As to what the extend of the problem, you have to open the carb up and see what's going on in there. I hope you are mechanically inclined and have a service manual in hand before starting to hack at this task. The last time I removed the carb, I did a bunch of different mods on the bike(i.e. seat mod, header cover mod--spark plug access w/o removing the tank, white-spacer mod, changed all Philip head screw on the carb to Allen head screws to easily mod on the carb in the future). It's a quite-involved process.
You can find lots of great info in the Technical Documents like these:

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1100708616
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1124016763
Good luck Dude

Title: Re: Starting problems
Post by Steve530 on 12/09/05 at 16:15:58

Thanks, SavageDude. Those links are a real help. I think I can get thhe tank off with those instructions. At least I can chenge out the spark plug and do the "spark plug door mod" that way.

I am mechanically inclined, well, experienced, at least. I pretty much do all the service on my family's cars. But I have no experience with motorcycles. This should be interesting.

Steve

Title: Re: Starting problems
Post by Steve530 on 12/09/05 at 18:37:12

I took the drain plug out, and I got about an ounce of gas. I moved the petcock to "PRI" and got nothing.

I removed the fuel line that runs from the rear side (aft) of the petcock to the carb. I assume this is the fuel supply to the carb. Lots of gas flowing out of that. I could control the gas flow with the petcock.

Finally I squirted a little SeaFoam directly into the carb fuel inlet and let it set a while. After a few minutes, I rapped the side of the carb with a screwdriver and the gas started flowing out of the drain plug. I assume I dislodged the float needle. There was not a lot of flow out of the drain, but it was steady and I could control it with the petcock.

I'm charging the battery now and will try it later.

Does this make sense?

Anyone know how much flow I should expect from the drain?

Title: Re: Starting problems
Post by Reelthing on 12/09/05 at 19:30:32

makes perfect sense for a stuck float -

about an ounce out of the bowl sounds pretty good- a slow trickle of gas with the drain plug out and the petc0ck on pri sounds good as well it's just a gravity feed and the inlet hole on the carb isn't very big -

so no flow until you rap on it a few times ?

Title: Re: Starting problems
Post by Steve530 on 12/09/05 at 19:48:43

Right, after the gas drained out, there was no flow until I rapped on the side of the carb.

I figure this means that the float needle is gunked up and sticking to the seat.

I timed the flow, I get about 20 cc of gas per 30 seconds.

I've drained about 12 oz of gas through the carb now. I left the petcock on PRI, so when I drained that I got a lot of gas out. Probably flooded it pretty good.

Waiting for the battery to charge. Then I'll give it another shot.

Steve

Title: Re: Starting problems
Post by Reelthing on 12/09/05 at 19:54:48

need to watch it though - if it was gunked up enough to stick it may not shut off either you don't want to leak gas all over the place

Title: Re: Starting problems
Post by Steve530 on 12/09/05 at 20:02:53

Good point, I'll watch for leaks if I get it to start.

Otherwise, I think I'll be in for a carb cleaning. At least I think I've narrowed it down to the carb. Of course, if I get into that, I'll be replacing the spark plug while I'm at it.

Steve

Title: Re: Starting problems
Post by Steve530 on 12/09/05 at 20:44:47

It finally started. It must have been the stuck float needle. I ran it until it was hot enough to run without the choke and another 15 minutes or so afterward.

I'm looking forward to taking it out tomorrow for a ride.

My thanks to all that offered help and suggestions.

Steve

Title: Re: Starting problems - It Thumps!
Post by Reelthing on 12/09/05 at 20:47:09

congrats!

Title: Re: Starting problems - It Thumps!
Post by SavageDude on 12/09/05 at 20:56:30

;D ;D ;D Great feeling isn't it,Steve? I can imagine the grin that you had when the beast start thumping again :D Congrat.

Title: Re: Starting problems - It Thumps!
Post by Steve530 on 12/09/05 at 21:29:50

Thanks, guys.

Yea, it does feel great. Considering how little I know about motrocycles in general and the Savage in particular, it felt good working through the probelm. Of course I couldn't have done it without all the help offered here I really appreciate it.

Steve

Title: Re: Starting problems
Post by Dynobob on 12/10/05 at 02:25:02

Steve530 wrote:

It finally started. It must have been the stuck float needle. I ran it until it was hot enough to run without the choke and another 15 minutes or so afterward.

Good job ! I think you should be ok now. Have fun and be very safe with all that gasoline around.

You might want to put an inline filter in the fuel line. I've been buying mine at the lawn mower shop. Briggs and Stratton I believe.

Edit: one more thing came to mind. Do not leave your petc0ck on "Prime" while your bike is parked. With a sticky float needle, fuel will run into your engine's crankcase, flood your engine, and cause some big problems. If your petc0ck is working, just leave it in the "On" position all the time.

Title: Re: Starting problems - It Thumps!
Post by Steve530 on 12/10/05 at 07:58:16

Thanks. I like the idea of adding a fuel filter to keep trash out of the carb. I'll get a filter, a couple of clamps and a little fuel line tubing. I guess I'll need to measure the tubing and try to find one that will fit.

It started on the second try this morning, so I think all is good. The engine even seems to be running smoother. I have SeaFoam in the gas in the tank. I plan on running that through the engine today, if I have time. Then put some fresh gas with StaBil in the tank.

Steve

Title: Re: Starting problems - It Thumps!
Post by Dynobob on 12/10/05 at 13:01:22

Steve530 wrote:

Thanks. I like the idea of adding a fuel filter to keep trash out of the carb.

Here's the filter I've been buying:

Briggs and Stratton 493629

It's for 1/4" fuel line, is nice and big, and should work great. It's comes with four clamps and costs about $5.

Title: Re: Starting problems - It Thumps!
Post by Steve530 on 12/10/05 at 16:52:11

Thanks, I figured it was a 1/4 " line. THe part number will help.

Title: Re: Starting problems - It Thumps!
Post by Dynobob on 12/10/05 at 21:23:30

Double check the size on your Savage Steve. I've been buying that filter for my vintage dirtbikes. I assume the Suzuki is the same size. Just do a quick measurement. The filter is definately for 1/4" ID. Let us know how your test rides go too ;D

Title: Re: Starting problems - It Thumps!
Post by Steve530 on 12/11/05 at 21:28:40

Well, the online microfiche on the Ron Ayers says it's a 6.5 mm line, so I got some 1/4" fuel line and a filter. It's a tight fit. The fuel line is so stiff that it does not want to bend enough, so it pops off even with clamps. I'm going to get some screw clamps to hold it bettter.

I did take the Savage out for a short ride yesterday. I'm a newbie, so I've only riden two motorcycles before this: a GZ250 in the MSF class and my wife's Ninja 250. I guess I've put about 50 miles on the Ninja, so that's what I'm most accustomed to.

So compared to the Ninja 250, I was suprised how smooth the Savage was. Very torquey. Very stable steering, but not as easy to turn as the Ninja. Iguess that's about what I'd expected.

I'll need to practice some slow riding to feel comfortable.

Steve