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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Bike won't start ... /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1127594390 Message started by lordsteve_666 on 09/24/05 at 13:39:50 |
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Title: Bike won't start ... Post by lordsteve_666 on 09/24/05 at 13:39:50 Hi folks, my '96 Savage is my first bike - got it for little money from a friend and really like to ride it! But now the bike won't start anymore, and I'd thought I'd ask the experts if it's something I can fix before I take it to the shop. (I don't know much about bikes yet, but I'm usually good at mechanical things :). So, the effect is simple: the starter works, but the bike won't start, and the compartment behind the air cleaner fills up with gasoline ... Does that indicate that something's wrong with the carburetor? Or am I totally on the wrong track here? Anyhelp greatly appreciated - I'd like to get my bike up and running again! Thanks! Stefan |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by torque on 09/24/05 at 13:57:08 is the bike on prime ,instead of on?if the lever is in the on position there is probably some dirt in the fuel float needle, holding it open,or the petc0ck might be malfunctioning,but i would check the carb,it sounds like a good thurogh clean and rebuild should fix it.IMO |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by Greg_650 on 09/24/05 at 14:04:24 Has the bike been sitting for a while? |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by lordsteve_666 on 09/24/05 at 14:06:22 Greg_650 wrote:
Yes, not for very long, but something like 4 weeks ... - Stefan |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by lordsteve_666 on 09/24/05 at 14:08:43 torque wrote:
Alright, that's what I thought ... are there any known pitfalls I could fall in when taking the carb apart, cleaning and rebuilding it? - Stefan |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by torque on 09/24/05 at 14:12:29 its pretty straight forward,theres plenty of diagrams floating around this site to refer too,u must have feeler guages that is very important ,if u have a manuel for the bike it tells u all the specs. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by Starlifter on 09/24/05 at 15:39:19 Check the actual gas in the tank, mine wouldn't start when I got some bad gas at a BP station. The gas was full of water and debris like rust flakes. The holding tank at the gas station must have been just about empty, and had water and other crap in it. Had to drain the tank and clean out the carb. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by Savage_Rob on 09/24/05 at 18:56:45 I didn't see an answer as to whether the petc0ck was left on Prime. If so, wouldn't it have flooded and also accounted for the fuel in the breather compartment? |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by Greg_650 on 09/25/05 at 08:52:02 lordsteve_666 wrote:
What compartment behind the aircleaner? You mean the airbox? Do you have a lot of gas back there, or do you just smell gas? |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by Greg_650 on 09/25/05 at 08:53:32 lordsteve_666 wrote:
That shouldn't have been too long. I'd start by turning the petc0ck straight down and then draining the carb bowl into a glass jar to see what comes out. See if you have water or dirt in the bowl. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by mpescatori on 10/18/05 at 14:31:55 Something odd happened this morning... After my (heroic) 500 mile ride, I endured 2 weeks of rain, drizzle and generally speaking miserable weather. So I commuted in my car and the bike just laid there waiting for something to happen. Then, this morning the sky was clear so I told myself 'Let's go!', donned my riding gear and... Wofwofwofwof sput sput chuff. Bike wouldn't start. Battery was good and in order, I started smelling gas, but bike wouldn't start, and there's NO WAY one can get to the spark plug in good time (on my former glory, my old Moto Guzzi, the plug's right there staring at you!) So this evening I got my tools, the Service Manual, a jerry can and 2 hours and few cu$$words later (and some help from a neighbor of good will) I had undone the seat, the battery, the air filter, a whole bunch of absolutely unnecessary items and finally got to the fuel tank. I drained that and finally parked it on the ground. ... Guess what? The standard plug wrench is too thick and won't fit in the spark plug hole!!! >:( >:( >:( So some more cu$$words and I told mysef 'Let's give it one last try...' The darn bike started !!! What happened next proved to be quite unusual... A good half pint of gasoline started frothing in the air filter housing ! :o I have absolutely no idea whether it had already pooled there during my unsuccessful attempts to start the bike this morning and during the late afternoon, or whether it had ... poured out of the carb float tank. I learned (the hard way) that the air filter housing has a sort of 'bottomless pit' (to hide the bugs sucked inside?) and it took me a while to mop it all out. By the way, can I pour it back in the tank or should I use it as 'revenge juice' to get even with my arch enemy villain? My half hunch is that I had left the petc0ck in the ON or maybe PRIME position, and had flooded the carb and the fuel had dribbled into the air filter housing. Also, another hunch is that the spark plug cable had not been fitted properly and was a little loose. Can I just reassemble and drive off? I had wanted to check the spark plug but event though I have bought a plug wrench of the correct plug size, it seems to be too fat and simply will NOT enter deep enough to engage the plug itself. ??? So now I have a bike which is in bits on the floor of my garage, and do not know wheter to disassemble it some more or refit everything (possibly in the wrong order :-[) and pretend 'it never really happened'... I am in a bit of a predicament... :-[ Maurizio |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by mpescatori on 10/18/05 at 14:36:41 By the way, when I undid the left battery cover (the one that covers the ignitor module) I found a small connector hanging loose . Not knowing what it was, I checked and discovered it is intimately related to the rear position lamp: the lamp stays off, no matter what, but when prodded with a multimeter the connector reads +12V with the light switch in the 'ON' position. OK, where am I supposed to plug it back into? I have looked and looked, but can't find a thing... ??? Suggestions? I believe the wire colors to be green and black/white (sorry, it's all very far away in the garage...) |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by Savage_Rob on 10/18/05 at 15:11:16 Well, so far as the spark plug socket goes, I believe this is the one that fits the bill though I haven't tried it myself. It is the correct size (18mm) and appears to be long enough. Click on the image below. You'll have to scroll down the page to find it. http://www.crc2onlinecatalog.com/images/Plug_wrench_18mm.JPG (http://www.crc2onlinecatalog.com/tools.htm) |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by jbrough7 on 10/18/05 at 15:14:01 I don't know about your electrical problem but i sure can commiserate with your spark plug wrench trials. I went through the same thing one day and it must have taken me two hours just to get AT the plug. then i find out the wrench wouldn't even fit!! GRRRR! Went down to a cheapo hardware store and bought a socket so everything worked out in the end. come to think of it, i have to change mine again soon, i think. Great. If I were you, I'd get the plug out and put a new one in and throw the sucker back together again. if you're like me and you don't do that, the bike might be spread over the garage floor for quite a while. bonne chance! |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by mpescatori on 10/18/05 at 15:22:38 Thanks Rob, I have the one with the T-handle, excellent grip but the metal's quite thick and it jams before engaging. I'll be on the lookout for your type. JBrough7, I really guess I AM like you, else I would have thrown everything back together before dinner, rather than postponing it all until tomorrow! :P Maurizio PS This could be the one chance to fit a power outlet to the battery so that I can recharge it with a cigarette plug. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by Savage_Rob on 10/18/05 at 15:45:57 Maurizio, Click on the image and it'll take you to the site. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by mpescatori on 10/19/05 at 06:30:28 Aha ! :D Now I get it ! ;) I'll have an order out shortly, it's incredible but I can't find these super slim tools over here, bikes have a box for things under the saddle... has anyone ever made a compartment for things on the Savage? (other than the barrel-style tool pouch under the front light) Maurizio |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by Savage_Rob on 10/19/05 at 06:37:21 mpescatori wrote:
There should be a small tool pouch inside the right-hand battery box cover. If it's there and complete, it should contain a sparkplug socket also. When I replaced my battery with an Odyssey, it was shorter but wider such that I had to remove the tool pouch bracket and just use the chrome cover. However, because of the reduced height, I was able to shape a small piece of aluminum to raise the battery and slide the tool pouch underneath it. The only tools I carry from that stock set are the sparkplug and belt tension tools. Otherwise, I have others in my ammo trunk. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by mpescatori on 10/19/05 at 15:28:38 Yes, I am aware of the small compartment to the right of the battery, and stay well assured that, 17 years and 6 owners on, the only tools left are two spare fuses... :P That's why I bought myself a leather barrel-type toolbox, I like to pack ! Maurizio |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by Savage_Rob on 10/19/05 at 16:47:02 mpescatori wrote:
I was afraid of that but it couldn't hurt to try. Anyway, the one from www.crc2onlinecatalog.com should do the trick. For $5, I'm planning to get one the next time I order something else from them but I don't know when that might be. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by mpescatori on 11/15/05 at 08:51:48 OK guys, I need A L L the help I can get. Remember my previous posts re: the bike that won't start? I have changed the spark plug, I have changed a full tank with new clean gas I have cleaned the air filter I have fitted a fuel filter... Bike started, chuggachuggachug, would not go beyond 1500rpm, lots of black smoke from the exhaust, and eventually she died :'( Allowed her to rest a bit, opened air filter box, without the air filter she restarted for a second, chuggachuggachug then POFFF and died again. Battery flat. I have asked around, and have been advised: - check that the fuel bowl isn't full of muck HOW? - check the connections to the coil - check the coil-to-spark plug connections - check if the decompressor mechanism isn't jammed/dry/whatever and leaves the exhaust valve partially open (just a draft) :o The guy who gave me this last tip had a Honda Dominator he had stripped and disassembled to the bone, it took him months to realize it was the decompressor that only needed oil and a few wiggles. Any help on how to pull down the fuel bowl? I am on the brink of depression... :'( :'( :'( I bought $500 worth of accessories and can't even start the bike :'( :'( :'( Maurizio |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by mpescatori on 11/15/05 at 09:22:46 OK on another thread I've just discovered how to open and drain the fuel bowl (I won't put a smiley here because I still have to do it) BUT I still need your past experience and opinions on the 'decompressor' issue. Having read of one whose bike wouldn't start due to a burnt exhaust valve, I cringe... :'( Maurizio |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by dangerdave on 11/16/05 at 10:14:11 Maurizio, In response to your question, the decomp valve is accessed on the valve cover, behind the chrome cover on the left-hand side of the bike (the one that you remove to change the plug). Toward the front of the bike atop the head cover, there will be a small actuator lever with a cable attached to it and a shaft running into the valve cover near the left-hand exhaust valve (it looks something like a throttle unit). This is the decomp valve actuator assembly. It is controlled by a solenoid that fires and pulls the cable when you press the starter button--just before the starter motor begins to turn over. This actuation is the intial "click" you hear when you press the starter button. Hence, a simple check of the system can be done by removing the chrome cover, turning the bike's ignition to "On" and lightly pressing the starter buttom. You should hear the solenoid fire and see the cable pull the decomp lever up several millimeters. If you hear the solenoid click, but the lever doesn't move, check to see if you can move it with your hand: if not, lubricate the shaft with bearing grease; if so, check the free play on the cable. As I remember, the cable needs 3 to 5 mm of free play to actuate correctly. Primarily, what you want to insure is that the cable is not so tight (or that it's not binding such) that it cannot "bottom out" against valve cover. Adjust the cable travel if necessary (there is a pair of locknuts on the cable housing just above the decomp lever for this purpose--it adjusts just like the lower end of your clutch cable). Obviously, if the cable is not moving or you can't hear the solenoid operate, then the problem is on the electrical end. With that said, what you describe seems more likely to be a problem of carburetion. As others have suggested, I'd remove the carb, disassemble, and rebuild, removing any gunk that may have worked its way in. At the very least, remove and clean the fuel bowl and check that the float is operating; also, I would clean the carb slide, clean the slide walls, and reinstall the slide with a very thin coat of 2-cycle engine oil. If you continue to get a back flow of gas into the airbox, it sounds like a stuck slide or defective/improperly adjusted float may be to blame. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by Reelthing on 11/16/05 at 10:43:47 Sounds like the carb to me and/or the fuel petc0ck. you need to be careful here as bad as the engine was flooded running the engine at all without checking into the oil. if the airbox filled with gas it is also likely the cylinder filled with gas. If it did so this will leak past the rings as the bike sat and into the crankcase thus mixing with the oil and if this is the case your all sit to fry the engine. Check the oil level or better yet just drain it and refill the oil - cheap insurance. Do you have gas in the vacuum line that runs from the righthand side (starboard) of the carb to the fuel petc0ck? if the diaphram has busted in the petc0ck it will produce all the symptoms you describe as it will let the engine suck gas straight into the intake and worse yet it will let gas leak into the intake filling the airfilter box and the engine. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by mpescatori on 11/16/05 at 14:02:59 Reelthing wrote:
Thank you Reelthing and DangerDave, I will answer your questions. No, when I pulled the tank away I do not recall seeing any fuel dribble down the vacuum line. To be honest, I'd change the petc0ck for a traditional style fuel valve, On/Off/Res, but I'd have to drill the fuel tank and tap the (thin) sheet metal. Frankly I doubt it would work. I have drained the fuel bowl, but would rather not pull down the whole carb, I'm not comfortable with that. I have also generously lubricated the decompressor assembly with 'three in one' oil, it worked alright since the beginning but some extra oil can't do any harm. I have also checked the coil and cleaned the low voltage leads, but the HT lead seems to be glued on (vulcanized?) so I can't pull it off and clean that as well. Last but not least, battery not quite dead but quite low, so off she comes, appear ye olde battery charger, clip on the wires and... smoke. The battery charger short circuited. A Bosch battery charger that breaks down? :'( Is my bike jinxed ? :'( Maurizio (I can't believe a whole month has passed since I UNsuccesfully tried to start her, and she STILL won't start!) |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by mpescatori on 11/16/05 at 15:21:07 Reelthing wrote:
OK let's assume that the petc0ck diaphragm has busted, I have no idea where to find a new one... BUT what if I got rid of the vacuum line, sealed both ends, and ran the petc0ck on 'prime' to simulate ON, and twisted it on 'normal' to shut it off? . . . Maybe it wouldn't work, because the diaphragm is busted so fuel would seep through anyway, huh? Maurizio (it's way past midnight and I can't sleep) |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by Reelthing on 11/16/05 at 19:01:52 if you want to consider it there is a post in the tech section on how to convert the petc0ck to a on/res/off setup - I like the vacuum petc0ck myself - but you may not. - Be sure and check out that oil! |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by mpescatori on 11/17/05 at 00:05:19 If the coversion is the one I saw some time ago, it means I have to disassemble it and do all sorts of funny things to it... unfortunately although I do have a garage it has a dirt floor (never paved by the landlord) and even dropping a nut means I have to clean off all the grime... uck. I will build a small table and work from that. Still, I cannot believe so many things are going wrong after she drove quite reliably and very nicely for all those miles... ... or was that just plumb luck ??? Maurizio (I'm actually looking at a DR650 as a second 'winter' bike while I sort this one out... or else I sell it to the first bidder come next spring and convert the DR :'( |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by mpescatori on 11/17/05 at 06:01:08 Reelthing wrote:
Reelthing, one innocent question... If the bike won't start, it stays cold... ...which means, I can only drain cold oil. 10W/40, hope it's fluid enough. Considering the local temperature is now in the low teens (Centigrade, fifties Farenheit) how efficiently will the oil pour out? How can I tell if it's OK (it's only done some 500 Km, 350 miles) or if I must change it? Like, droplets of gasoline in the oil? Smears? Maurizio |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by mpescatori on 11/17/05 at 06:05:55 Just read on the Tech Section about oil change, and cphilip says: ''The main thing I would add it that you SHOULD NOT use a viscosity thats too low because of the wet clutches. They will slip on you. Nothing less than 15W. Nothing labeled "energy saving". The cork and metal plate clutch with springs system was designed way back in the days when they used only 30W non detergent oils. And they do not like very slippery oils by design. So no matter what oil you chose, remember you are also lubricating your clutch and it works on a basic viscosity need around 30. So for instance 15W-40 is an acceptable compromise and works. But, for instance 5W-30 is not within that compromise window. And your clutch will slip and act up'' Which means, 20-40 oil OK? Maurizio |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by dangerdave on 11/18/05 at 07:18:31 Is it 10-40 or 20-40? You have listed both in your previous posts. In either case, be prepared to change the oil several more times before you resolve this demon: as others have noted, gas backing into the airbox also likely means gas seeping into the intake, which means gas in the oil (which, speaking from experience, is a bad thing that causes bad things....). Hence, I would recommend changing the oil frequently so long as you continue to have problems with fuel leakage. Even 20-40 will drain very slowly when cold, but simply give it time and let it run out as much as it will allow. It may not completely empty the crankcase (it certainly won't, in fact, due to the temperature), but you'll drain most of the fouled oil as well as any gas that may be in suspension even with the bike cold. Once you get it running again, change the oil again as soon as possible. Good luck! dr |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by HDI_IA on 12/23/05 at 02:08:02 WOW....what a wealth of information in this thread :) I think you guys have just saved me a visit from the local fire department! I am currently working on my Fathers '96 savage and just completed the plug/cap fix and cleaned the oil left by the old plug/cap. Long story short...The airfilter box filled with fuel. Cleaned it, left it open and observed it filling again. This time used screw driver handle and tapped carb bowl. This time started without overflow for a bit and then started again. Ran for a bit and then started having problems once again. Looks like the floats are not doing well. Time to rebuild carb, but checked oil level to find case completely full with both oil and gas. Scary to be sure, but sounds like this is not unknown. Ok so I will drain and refill with clean oil and change filter. Once I have the problem completely resolved should I drain the oil, refill, run for short time and change oil/filter again in order to make sure case is clean? I also read about the issue with the petcock diaphram....could this also be an issue or maybe a source for the float problem I'm having? I will search for more info on the petcock diaphram, but if someone has a quick way to check it I would greatly appreciate the info. In the meantime my thanks to everyone for the valuable information already posted here. This has been very enlightening :) Also Happy Holidays to everyone! |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by Reelthing on 12/23/05 at 08:19:24 HDI_IA wrote:
First off pat your self on the back you've encountered a pretty ugly problem and are dealing with it before it can cause serious damage to the top end :D Quote:
I sure would maybe even twice on the oil after a few minutes of running Quote:
If the carb was overflowing without the bike running and the petc0ck set to on/res it would be the diaphram inaddition to the float. A good test for this side is to pull the carb drain plug and once it drains if gas continues to drip out with w/petc0ck set to on/res than the fuel side is flaky - on the vacuum side if you have any gas in the line going to the petc0ck or like I did - no jokes from the peanut gallery - I pull a vacuum on the line and got a pretty good taste of gasoline - so I replaced it - also the new one would hold suction well enough for the line to stick to your tongue. So far as I know the diaphram is not sold seperate and the petc0ck runs about $50 from crotchrocket.com Quote:
and a Merry Christmas to you! |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by Steve530 on 12/24/05 at 00:49:21 mpescatori, If you have a small vacuum pump and a gauge, you could just pull a vacuum on the diaphram and see if it leaks down. Another idea is tto find an apporpriately sized piece of clear tubing to attach between the petcock and the manifold for testing. Then you could monitor see if any gas is being sucked into the manifold from a leaky petcock diaphram. Steve |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by HDI_IA on 12/24/05 at 04:40:24 Reelthing thanks for the information :) Well I am a bit farther ahead now. Thank goodness my Father's savage has a tank that is easily removed cause I have had it off half a dozen times already in the last day :o I really believe we were very lucky as when I emptied the oil I found that there was nearly 5 quarts of liquid in there. If I would have lit a match I would have been up in flames :o Anyway the carb was removed, boiled and rebuilt....It was very dirty inside with lots of grit and other stuff in it. Now it looks brand new :D I also finally got to see that it has a 155 jet inside. Once I got everything done and back I was able to prime the carb and then get it started in the 'on' position. Started right up and ran fine without pouring fuel into the air box again (had the cover off and the filter out to observe). But I still have one problem and that is if I switch over to 'reserve' it starts up with the fuel leakage again. :-/ At this point I am thinking I need to test the petcock. I just read Steve530's response about using a vacuum pump and gauge to test this. I have a mityvac pump that has the dial gauge on it so when I get back up (it's after 4:30am here right now) I will give it a try and see how that goes. I know some people might get discouraged doing these kind of things, but since my Mothers passing last year this has given my Father and I some serious time to bond, so sometimes problems can turn into blessings :D Anyway once again I want to thank both you Reelthing and Steve530 for the information and idea's. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by Steve530 on 12/24/05 at 16:20:31 HDI_IA wrote:
You will never regret the time you have spent doing this with your Father. |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by HDI_IA on 12/25/05 at 02:20:57 Steve530 wrote:
Thanks very much for the kind words. I am very much enjoying this time making his favorite ride happy again ;D Well once again thanks for the advice on using a vacuum pump on the petcock. Sure enough the petcock is fine and I just had a little bit more tinkering to do with the carb and all is well now! ;D I have changed the oil twice and will ride it for a bit before I do the final oil change to get it back on schedule. I still have some adjustments to go with the carb, but other then that it is looking good! The oil plug/cap mod appears to be holding well. The new supertrapp pipe I put on for him sounds wonderful and is performing very well. The superbrace I put on the front appears to have brought a ton of stability to the front end and the Metzler ME880's I put on it a short while back grip the ground like I expected them to do. I still need to drain the forks and refill with fresh fork oil. We will ride it for a bit and see if he wants to go with the Progressive shocks. And I will remount his saddle bags in the next couple days once I have the brackets made. If I keep going he will have most of the same mod's that I performed on my Intruder vs800. :o ;D Now it's time to ride my friends...so once again thanks to both you, Steve530, and to you Reelthing for your assistance (and thanks to all those others that have posted information in the past, but is being used in the present ;) ). Thanks so very much and Merry Christmas to ALL! 8) |
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Title: Re: Bike won't start ... Post by lancer on 12/26/05 at 04:20:49 mpescatori wrote:
How are you progressing with your Savage? You were hard at work on it and then just dropped of line. Is it going now? |
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