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Message started by gitarzan on 03/07/05 at 16:36:30

Title: Welding question.
Post by gitarzan on 03/07/05 at 16:36:30

I wanna learn how to weld. Nothing big. Nothing much. Just want to widen my horizons a little before I die. Someday. Long off. I hope.

I don't really want to do major stuff, maybe enough to weld a tab on the bike, braze jewelry, artsy stuff.

What do any of you that weld think about a very light duty MAPP gas welder like this:
http://www.lowes.com/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=98894-000000717-OX2550
Is that enough to actually DO anything, at least on a light duty, learning level? I don't want to sink a lot of $$ into it at this point, but just want mess around. For now.

FWIW:
My Grandad was a master welder. This guy had several welding kits including one that was powered by a generator turned by a 56 Chevy 6 cyl engine on a trailer. He could weld anything. He worked for Mack Truck. I met some of his coworkers in the 70's. They all said he was the best welder ever. So he must have impressed somebody.

I doubt if there's a welding gene, but I want to give it a go. GPop's old welding stuff was scattered to cousins an brothers who by now, 25 years sold it for beer money or forgot where it came from and gave it all away.

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by sluggo on 03/07/05 at 16:54:44

i'm in the same boat as you on the welding thing.

my father inlaw did leave me a oxy/act set up and a welder.

looks like i'll have to give it a go.

but i wont try anything on thumper till i'm much better. ;D

oh yeah and git, i've read your posts today, your on a roll. ::)

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by Ed_L. on 03/07/05 at 17:48:39

I've been using a oxy-acetlyne setup for close to 20 years in my workshop. Have been able to weld new perches onto rears all the way down to thin metal repairs. The biggest problem with any type of gas welding is getting the tanks refilled. I'm using a 40 acetlyne and a 60 oxygen that I get refilled at AirGas. I bought the tanks orignially(expensive startup cost) and trade them in when they need to be refilled and pay for the contents. Before buying any set from Home Depot I would be sure that the tanks can be refilled either at Home Depot or a local welding supply company. Mapps gas is simular to propane so I would expect a little less heat from it when compaired to acetlyne but I've never had a chance to really test it. The set you are looking at would be a good starter set bit you might outgrow it quickly. You should be able to find a oxy-acetlyne set at a welding supply store simular to the Mapp gas stuff that is sold at Home Depot. I guess my advice would be to see if there are any welding supply stores in your area and go in and talk to them, most of the time they will steer you straight. They should also have Mapps gas setups, at least the Airgas store I use does. One other thought, buy something bigger than you think you need, you will grow into it. Luck on whatever you decide to get.

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by gitarzan on 03/07/05 at 18:21:28

Maybe something more like this?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=36983

I figure I'd learn on some junk metal and later evolve into windchimes, garden deco, etc.

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by Paladin on 03/07/05 at 18:32:26

Several years ago the wife got me a Sears gas welding outfit (http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&pid=00920293000). Went and got a couple of rather large tanks (4' tall oxygen, 3' tall acetylene.) No worry about not having enough power for the job, nor running out of gas in the middle of a job. So far I've done a little practice, welded the crank back on the wife's exercise bike, welded four bolts to a frame for setting in concrete to mount a 1.5 hp pool pump. Will be welding/brazing my VW floor pans sometime in the future. It is far more than I need; thus it will never be less then I need. Also useful in computer data security. (http://www.andruschak.net/DataSecure/index.html)

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by Ed_L. on 03/07/05 at 18:55:01

That set will do the trick, looks a lot like the set I'm using. Now all you need are the tanks, some scrap metal and a bunch of coat hangers for welding rods ;D. Just joking, get the welding rods when you get the tanks. Never leave the tanks on when not in use, they will leak down over a day or two. Hot metal looks like cold metal I've got a couple scars to prove it ;D. Have fun, welding is a blast, changes how you look at metal.

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by Max_Morley on 03/07/05 at 19:46:52

Something to consider, when I retired I wanted to learn wire feed welding. I had had oxy/acet classes and stick classes year ago, (HS and College), but wire feed takes a diffferent technique. I opted for a class at the local CC, I used up alot of wire and gas unlearning old skills and learning new ones. Well worth the $ to have a coach there for each different welding procedure. Also got to try an air arc cutter, cutting and welding stainless and aluminum, plus spray weld (wire feed process with the power cranked up and the wire rolling out the end of the handle) used on overhead and vertical for heavy thick metal, I was on 3/4 " sample plates. smoked a pair of new gloves with the heat. I know I saved money over doing it myself as I probably burned up the dollars the class cost in materials and electricity had I spend that many hours in my shop. 2 hrs day, 4 days week for 11 weeks. Also learned welding with bi/tri focals doesn't work for me, I got plain safety glasses and used them so the focus didn't change, also spurgled and got a auto dimming helmet at the student discount price. They are much cheaper now but were at $250. then, student price was about $75 off. Really nice to have be able to see your set up and then start welding w/o having to roll/tip the helmet down. But whatever works for you is great, I have a MAPP gas set in the garage sale box as I inherited my dad's oxy/acetylene jewelry/art set up that is much better. I have a ocy/acet set in the box still, haven't got the bottle yet as my BIL has a set I can use and the wire feed he bought us stays at my house. it will weld thin stuff, tubing lots better than gas. Lots less warpage. It is a great skill to have and I'd encourage you to learn it. Max

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by tarheel365 on 03/07/05 at 19:53:28

i've also been thinking of learning to weld. i've learned from other boards that although its good to learn on your own....sometimes it could be cheaper in the long run to take a class at the local community college or something. they have the equipment there and i'm sure they'll give u advice on stuff to start with.

they(people on other boards) also recommended oxy/acet and mig welders to start with.

oxy/acet appeals to me because it is multipurpose...(cuts, heats, welds)
that and you can weld thick stuff without rewiring to 220v

i've heard good and bad things with the 115v migs. but i've heard more good things about the 115v migs by the big three(miller, lincoln, hobart) so i guess u get what u pay for.

i'm just reitterating some knowledge i've picked up from others.....oh yah another theme is......Go big the first time around so you don't waste money upgrading later.

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by lancer on 03/07/05 at 21:01:41

A couple of years ago I took a welding class at a local tech, not the full semester, just an intro class...two nights a week for 10 weeks. It was a lot of fun and I learned a few basics, enough to get by and do a few little jobs. Look around for an intro class.

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by gitarzan on 03/08/05 at 06:18:54

GOOD IDEA :D

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by klx650sm2002 on 03/08/05 at 07:31:32

I did a basic gas welding course, enough to do battery boxes mudgaurds light mounts etc on chops.
A friend of mine who welds as part of his job says get TIG if you can afford it if not get gas but dont bother with MIG or stick.

Clive W :D

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by Savage_Rob on 03/08/05 at 10:35:14

I was a weldor for a couple of years in my late teens before I joined the Navy and it was mostly arc welding (stick/MIG/TIG) stuff. Very little gas except for some cutting. However, in high school I took 2 years of welding. For heavier stuff like frames, trailers, etc. I'd go with arc. For smaller stuff like battery boxes, fenders, etc. gas (oxy-acetylene) will be fine. Small stuff can be done using MIG or TIG too but the investment in that equipment is much greater. For artsy stuff, gas is great - for both welding and brazing. The suggestion on taking a class is not a bad idea either. Being taught how to do something properly the first time can save a lot of time and frustration, not to mention lessening the likelihood of wasted materials.

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by sluggo on 03/08/05 at 11:17:38

man, i just scared the shi :ot out of myself.

went out to the shop dusted off the oxy/act tanks.
opened them up, lit the torch. thing was leaking had fire coming out all the connections threw it to the floor, it lands on some rags. starts them on fire. i run back to the tanks shut em off then went and stomped out the rags. that was about 15 minutes ago and my heart is still pounding.

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by Red_Wine on 03/08/05 at 11:47:28

sluggo wrote:

When are you starting your welding lessos, Sluggo? ;D
First lesson, first day: "Always check your gear before starting"... sounds familiar? ;)
Glad the only thing you burned was rags and some pride ;D
Take care,
RW

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by Nightrain on 03/08/05 at 11:47:58

One of the very best pieces of eqipment for your shop should be a good fire extinguisher. Don't wait untill you are involved in a serious fire to learn this the hard way. take it from me and dont make the same mistake I did. They only cost about $25 and are availble almost anywhere.

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by Lee on 03/08/05 at 19:54:29

A word of caution about the MAPP rig: Take a close look at the cost of the oxygen tanks. They are the weak link in the concept. Bottom line is they just don't last very long -- ten, fifteen minutes at most with a welding flame, if you're fast and efficient -- a little longer with a brazing or soldering flame. You'll spend a small fortune in oxygen just learning to weld with a MAPP unit.

Lee

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by Greg_650 on 03/11/05 at 11:57:59

sluggo wrote:

Really cool, Dude....the bad part is that I've done it too (without torching the rag pile though). Yep, gotta check those fitting from time to time :P

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by Greg_650 on 03/11/05 at 12:00:07

Nightrain wrote:

Good idea. And also buy a good extinguisher. The last one that I had, went dead without ever being used. Go figure.

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by Greg_650 on 03/11/05 at 12:19:16

gitarzan wrote:

If you want to go gas welding, go with oxy/acetylene. Skip the Mapp gas. Not hot enough. It'll give the flexibility of cutting, bending, soldering and brazing and the use of old coat hangers for welding too (yep, I read that)...Stick is probably the cheapest way to get into regular welding, but I'm too anal for it cause I can't seem to coordinate the "feed" with the speed and the heat. I am just plain messy. I personally give it the name; Stick Welding.

I can Mig. It is the cleanest welding, but then you have to deal with sharpening the tungsten electrode and a foot pedal. In a way, it's almost like soldering. Now, if all you want to do is welding, get a Tig welder. You still can have splatter like with a stick, but it is more just a point and shoot thing....

Plus, have you ever tried one of those auto darkening face shields? Awesome and amazing. The thing darkens as soon as the flash starts. You don't see it al all. No more flipping it up and down.

Oh yeah, since Harbor Freight was mentioned, I just had a box of tools delivered to my door. They carry the auto darkening shields there too.

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by Nightrain on 03/11/05 at 13:10:03

I always thought that TIG has the footpedal and is more like soldering. MIG has no footpedal, is a wirefeed controlled by a trigger. And Stick is also called arc welding with no feed just a stationary stick that burns down as you go? Correct me if I am wrong ???

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by Savage_Rob on 03/11/05 at 13:32:22

Here's the way I remember it.... and someone please correct me if I am wrong here. MIG, TIG and stick are all forms of arc welding. MIG is Metal Inert Gas and uses a wire-feed gun with a shielding gas such as carbon-dioxide or argon. The wire is the filler metal and the arc is between the work and the wire. TIG is Tungsten Inert Gas and uses a similar setup but the arc is between the work and a tungsten rod. The rod is not the filler metal though. A separate filler metal is used. Sometimes it's a handheld rod (the method I've used); this is very similar to gas welding in practice. Other times it may be a powdered metal that is dropped into the flow (usually in automated welders). An inert gas is also used for shielding the molten metals from oxygen. Both MIG and TIG use triggers but those may be finger or pedal actuated but it is most common to see pedals used in TIG. Stick is what most people think of when the think of welding. A rod with a coating that burns to create the shielding gas is used for the filler metal and the arc is between it and the work.

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by Nightrain on 03/11/05 at 13:39:04

Yup ;D. That is how I remember it too. I always wanted to sneak out in the middle of the night and weld my neighbors car doors shut.

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by Greg_650 on 03/11/05 at 13:44:32

Savage_Rob wrote:

I sit corrected...I had them backwards. You are right. BF.

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by Greg_650 on 03/11/05 at 13:48:49

Nightrain wrote:

Yeah, it's that stationary stick that no matter how I try it, I can't "feed" it. Which I mean to say, I can't control it. You know, as it burns, it gets shorter, so you go closer, and all the while you are moving along. Not me. No coordination in MY "feed".

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by gitarzan on 03/11/05 at 18:27:04

So what can I get for $50?

;D

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by Paladin on 03/11/05 at 20:41:59

The welding equivalent of a MoPed, when you are looking for the performance of a Savage.

I figure you have two options for that $50 -- get the little set and putter around....

or...

Sign up for a welding class, learn what's involved, what each rig is good for, how to use, tricks of the trade, etc.. Then, once you know what you want and what is required to satisfy that want, buy a small gas or arc welder.

After reading this thread I think I'll be signing up for a class this summer.

time for me to quit puttering around and learn what I am doing

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by gitarzan on 03/11/05 at 20:49:16

I'll do both.
I'll d¡ck around with with the MAPP for awhile. It should make a butt kickin soldering torch at any rate.

I'll make a few bikes out of nuts and bolts, etc. Miniatures to give away.

Then I'll find a class if I want to go further.

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by Greg_650 on 03/12/05 at 07:05:51

gitarzan wrote:

You meant "I'll 'Limp Phallus" around with with the MAPP for awhile." Right?

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by gitarzan on 03/12/05 at 07:32:31

Think of it as a beginner bike... ::)

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by bobo383 on 03/13/05 at 07:17:06

Hit the pawn shops and see what they've got for around a hundred bucks. You rarely need any more than 90 amps, but get a 240 volt unit so it stays relatively cool. The 110 volt units are ok but will have problems if you use them longer than 30 minutes or so (at a time). I have a 240volt/230 amp Century stick welder right now, but it stays at 70 amps most of the time. It's my Dad's, he'll want it back someday, but he's a school superintendant now in a small East Texas town and they have FFA! He won't have to touch a welder for a long time.

I learned to cut & weld in Ag class in high school - remember the FFA jackets? Ag was MANDATORY where I went to school. It was the school's free labor class. My FFA jacket had little holes in it from the weld splatter. I feel like Napoleon Dynamite.

Every school day for 4 years we welded with Lincoln AC stick welders. You can find them used here in Texas for $150-$200 in pawn shops. Most of it was making hay rings for round bales out of thin square tubing. It was a real treat to make a gate out of pipe cause we could crank the welder up to 70-90 amps and not make holes.

I've used my employer's MIG and TIG to do mauser bolt handle conversions and various other stuff. Mig is sooooo nice. Just point & shoot. TIG is OK, probably as close to gas welding as I've done.

We never used gas to weld, just cut. I never learned to gas weld.

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by Lee on 03/13/05 at 16:18:42

We never used gas to weld, just cut. I never learned to gas weld. [/quote]

It's been a long time since I learned to gas weld. If I had the room for a gas rig I'd have one for sure. There's really something magical about working the torch and watching the metal become liquid under your flame.

Lee

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by Greg_650 on 03/18/05 at 07:23:45

Lee wrote:

We never used gas to weld, just cut. I never learned to gas weld. It's been a long time since I learned to gas weld. If I had the room for a gas rig I'd have one for sure. There's really something magical about working the torch and watching the metal become liquid under your flame.

Lee

Yeah, it is magic. I got my very first lesson in gas welding by not wearing a long sleeve shirt. I had never dreamed how much "sunburn" I could get on the underside of my forearms. Ouch.

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by Ed_L. on 03/18/05 at 08:24:19

Getting a large piece of red hot slag in a shoe has always been my favorite, lost count of how many time I've done a "rain dance" while welding. ;D. You would think that I would of learned to wear lace up work boots instead of low top sneakers. Even with the ocasional burnt flesh I still love welding with a torch.

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by Savage_Rob on 03/18/05 at 08:40:04

Several things you learn quickly, like...

...never keep a book of matches in your shirt pocket, even when you are wearing leathers (got a singed nipple once myself)...

...if you must carry a lighter, carry a zippo - not a plastic disposable (heard horror stories on this one but never actually saw it myself)...

...you will go though levis quickly as the spatter collects in the edges of the cuff and slowly eats small holes which fray in the wash and really flame later on. You get to recognize the feeling of slightly warm wind coming up your pants leg and get to where you just pat it down with one hand while you continue welding...

(most of this was in arc welding though)

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by Greg_650 on 03/18/05 at 10:02:43

Flash burned eyes ain't no fun either :o

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by Savage_Rob on 03/18/05 at 22:41:03

That's a true story. You wake up the next morning feeling like someone poured hot sand in 'em.

Title: Re: Welding question.
Post by WD on 03/19/05 at 00:44:41

My wife bought me a Campbell Hausfeld flux-core wire feed welder back in 98 or 99. I like it, it's great for doing sheet metal work. Anything over 3/16" stock is pushing it though.

I can't stick or gas weld. But turn me loose in a smithy...I love forge welding. There is something almost magical about taking a worn out HD primary chain or saw chain and turning it into a Damascus knife blade.

You can get decent 110 flux/mig/stixk rigs at Wal-mart, Sears, etc. Remember they aren't for big jobs and you'll be fine. Any "real" welding, I'll take to an FAA or USCG approved shop. My life is worth more to me than "saving" a couple bucks and attempting to do it myself.
-WD