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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Jardine again..... (now MAC) /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1097877520 Message started by cphilip on 10/15/04 at 14:58:39 |
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Title: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by cphilip on 10/15/04 at 14:58:39 Ok so I visit my Suzuki Stealer.... seeing if he has a new like take off muffler for a savage (of course) and he and I dig around in the back room.... no find one.... but we tried.... He then says heck Phil I can get you a Jardine for like $100.... why not do that? So I say "well... I had thought of that sort of thing but I really did not want to get into it that involved". He says "well a new stock is going to be so much more expensive than that and everyone I got running these just absolutely loves em. Several of them made no real jetting changes and still run fine. The Mechanic chimes in and agrees. Says he had one and it really woke it up. And he claims not too loud either. So the Stealer says " and if need be I can get you an adjustable jetting kit really cheap too". So we are now talking about that. So Lets again hear what people thing about Jardine. He seems to want to recommend it over the Supertrapp. He feels its better as it takes on the stock mounts and heat guard and looks more stock (but skinny and longer) and more or less performs as well. Although not tunable he says everyone is very pleased with theirs he has running them. At least he seems to be arguing this would be his choice. And so does the young kid mechanic that actualy owned a Savage with one on it. So whats the story here. Anyone NOT like a Jardine and why? Sounds cheap enough.... right? |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by Ram on 10/15/04 at 17:34:41 I have a Jardine ..fitted it myself. Absolutely love it. Improved sound Improved performance Stunning looks For first 1000 miles or so just took off the white spacer and turned out the mixture screw. After that put bigger main jet, put the spacer back in and can't complain a bit. I say go for it! |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by thehoghunter on 10/16/04 at 01:27:49 Jardine on my bike - Supertrapp on my wife's - I like the Jardine better. Better sound. Both started turning color within the same time frame (although the Jardine did turn blue where the Supertrapp turned golden brown to blue). |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by Greg_650 on 10/16/04 at 02:56:48 I personally like the SuperTrapp. The Trapp comes with it's own heat shield and is tuneable via adding/removing disks. It also mounts just fine on the stock muffler mount. It is more expensive, but what the hay.... I also have heard of 2 bikes where the baffle/packing came loose in the Jardine, which is what you presently have with the stock muffler. As for the tuneable jet kit...are we talking about the DAJ again? Oh no. More expensive and just adds additional clutter to a bike that is intended to be simple. I think this issue was well dissected in another topic. In either case, make the jetting changes immediately upon installing either muffler and you won't have any discoloration. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by cphilip on 10/16/04 at 06:20:30 Your close to the same area as me Greg. So what did you jet too? I am in upstate SC and I beleive we are about the same altitude... So your saying NOT to go adjustable. Then just go with a slightly larger jet for this. I should think 150? Yes I searched around and saw your posts regarding the lose packing reports. Also found several reports of the discoloration on the Supertrapp's (saw more reports of those than Jardine). I see some dino results showing a bit more preformance out of the Supertrapp's and that might explain the more frequency of discolorations if people did not rejet. I am about to conclude the Jardine is closer to stock in its backpressure (and unchangable) as is... so it may be a tad easier to get by without rejetting. Which might explain my dealers reports from users not rejetting. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by cphilip on 10/16/04 at 09:06:00 Another consideration he seems to be recommending... and I never heard they made these for Savages... but he showed to me and seems real keen on them Also has four or five people with these... Mac.... I know they made some good car stuff at one time. And I certainly not heard anyone here say anthing about them. But seems they make a complete slip on direct bolt on for the Savage. He says a bit louder but closer to stock and no jetting issues he has seen with them. And good looking thing.... looks like a Jardine actually. By the way I took the bike by there today and had them listen to this... and they also agree its the muffler. Now I just got to decide... |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by Greg_650 on 10/16/04 at 10:25:02 cphilip wrote:
Yep, Clemson isn't that far away....been there many times, and since I also ride the Parkway, I can assure you that a single jet change will be just fine for your altitude and also the highest peaks over 6K feet. My spouse is running a 152 main with her Trapp. As for a dealer's perspective on what is good for a Savage....all that I can say is BS. How many times do people buy a used Savage that has a blued pipe? We hear it all the time on the forums, but what percentage of Savage riders (of all the Savages sold) actually visit these forums? My guess is that the majority of the dealer installed mufflers go out the door and never return...they end up parked, wrecked, traded, or sold and the dealer doesn't really get any feedback anyway. Most riders are new to the sport and don't even know if they have a problem when the pipe blues.....so I just don't think that a dealer is the best judge of what is good. We are 8) I like the Trapp and some like the Jardine. I can't say anything bad about it and everyone has their own opinions and tastes. If you want a Trapp without loosing back pressure, then just install 6 disks instead of 8 and see if it runs as you like it. Then you might only need a 150 main. My spouse's has 14 disks and she runs a 152 and a "1/2 spacer". Oh, and don't forget to use the copper anti-sieze on those stainless bolts liberally.... |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by cphilip on 10/16/04 at 11:28:42 Oh I agree Greg. But it doesn't hurt to see if you can find out what dealers are selling the most of without getting too many complaints back about. Although that would be information that should be sifted through and taken as only one grain of salt.... Now what interests me at this point, before I go ahead is, is the introduction of MAC into the line up of choices. Previously all I hear is Supertrapp and Jardine... This one I have never heard here as being used by any members of any Forums I been too. And he brings up that is his best seller for this and he likes its quality and has no complaints on it. So now I am wondering why I have not heard about this one around the Forums. Perhaps because its not a realy high performance designed one. More stock like but a bit more sound... but... still if its made for a Savage.... and someone has used it... and its cheap.... Like 80 bucks... and I know the name MAC from performance stuff for Mustangs... I know they used to make good stuff for those. So who has seen this MAC in person and known someone who used one? |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by Savage_Rob on 10/16/04 at 15:25:54 Wow, just did a search and found this (http://www.macperformance.com/store/category.cfm?SID=3&Category_ID=720). There is also a Canadian distributor. The US site says 86-87 but the Canadian distributor's site (http://www.mcdistributing.com/index01-Suzuki.php?model=LS) says it fits 86-93. Mine is a 98. I wonder how different it would actually be. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by Susan on 10/16/04 at 17:30:24 cphilip wrote:
Did a quick site search on Heise and came up with some responses: Posts on Heise re: Mac (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&q=site:www%2Eheise%2Dworkstations%2Ede+mac). It is easy to do this sort of search: use google; go to heise; type mac in the google search box; select "search site" in the drop down menu to the right of the search box. Voila related posts! |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by PRH111 on 10/16/04 at 19:47:17 Dyno sheets have shown no real improvements with the Jardine over stock...with the supertrapp improvements were found (this is from dyno sheets I have seen on the Heise site I believe). My bike came with a Jardine on it from the dealer and when I looked inside it I was horrified to find out it has a louvered core with the louvers REVERSED!!! A louvered core already is nearly as restrictive as a stock muffler...reversing the louvers makes it worse. A straight through perforated core muffler would offer immensely better flow (though it would be louder than a louvered core muffler). |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by cphilip on 10/16/04 at 19:47:19 yea but unfortunately Susan... when you read those you realize there are like only three related people mentioning MAC's, and among those, maybe two of them talk about a MAC "straight pipe" (which I don't think may be exactly the same. Could be wrong but they give very little info thats usefull if they are) and the other one talks about living by the Sea and corrosion on the pipe (not very helpfull to me) .... so there is Extremely little info there on Hiese about these. Like three reports that quickly degrade into "nothing" and unrelated discussions. No clear review or report thats reputable in my mind. So I asked. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by cphilip on 10/16/04 at 20:17:18 I am smelling our first Field test here.... I might just buy one to prove how big a Peace of crap this thing is... or isn't. What the heck eh? I mean I can see if its what it claims to be... and performance would not be my goal here... things like does it rust easy, discolor easy, need serious rejetting, sound like crap etc etc.... So maybe I will buy one and see if I can get a sound clip of this stock first and this thing after it... and some good digital photo's and follow its life through a while... if someone can get some comparisons ready for the Jardine and Supertrapp.... sound clips and all.... we could decide for ourselves if this thing is a piece of crap or not... going into it with eyes wide open and not expecting much out of it... put it to rest if need be. I am into that. I would not realy have much to gain or lose if it fails to be decent. I can always change it out if its a total dog pile... I am down with it. Are you guys/gals? |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by Greg_650 on 10/17/04 at 03:29:41 cphilip wrote:
Not really. I read those posts too....If you suspect that a MAC is a piece of crap, and you aren't sure if you want a Jardine either then why not buy the one that no one has complained about and is suggested to give better power as well? That would be the Trapp. Here is another post on the Jardine from that forum too. Jardine turned brown (http://www.heise-workstations.de/ls650/Fragen/messages/21696.html) Of course if doing a product review is what you want to do, then go for it with eyes wide OPEN :o |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by Greg_650 on 10/17/04 at 03:31:56 PS - I have a Raask, SuperTrapp and Jardine sound clip. Contact me directly if you are interested. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/17/04 at 03:41:04 I think that having to rejet after fitting an after-market exhaust is a good thing, it means you are getting more air flow and air flow = HP. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by cphilip on 10/17/04 at 07:09:37 Yes that would be correct. But what if you were just looking for something that you DID NOT have to rejet.... something to replace a worn out stocker and you were happy with the performance... but did not want to pay OEM prices just to replace a old muffler with. Would you have a choice? Is there a choice? At this point it seems.... No.... I might be curious enough to do this one. And I would of course adopt the expectation that its a POS just to enter into it with the right attitude that so there would not be any bias going into it. Nothing disturbs me more than someone who tries something and then refuses to admit the thing is a POS just to justify his decision. And then even becomes an advocate without really admitting the faults of that. And then leads others to make the same mistake. I see this sort of thing all the time. At this point credibility leads me to believe the Supertrapp is the best first choice. Then the Jardine after that. But I cannot say that the MAC might not be as good a second choice at this point. I mean who knows? It does not seem the few that have them that reported have made comparisons. And perhaps the "many" that have them just do not get online and also have no way to compare them. Perhaps most of them did not research and think what they have is all there is. In this case I have very little evidence either way as to the quality of this MAC product. Very little. All I know is the brand does have some recognition in making exhaust products that seem decent. I have no idea how they got into making Savage exhausts. But until we can find out for ourselves the quality and performance level then we should not dismiss that there might be another option. Lord knows we have so few of those already. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by Susan on 10/17/04 at 07:18:14 cphilip wrote:
Was just trying to help :) ... your previous post said: cphilip wrote:
Since you said you had never heard of any members of any forums using the MAC pipe, it seemed to me that you had not seen those posts on Heise (irrespective of their quality), and perhaps had not done/did not know how to do a search on Heise. I was only trying to help. Good luck with whatever pipe you end up with. Ride on! 8) |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by cphilip on 10/17/04 at 15:00:49 Sorry... your right... I did say "any". I should not have gone that far Susan ....well.... as usual, the woman is right. But not as ussual I am admitting it! I guess I should have said so few it almost qualified as none.... but then again, like a true male... I am guilty of exageration.... ;D I didn't mean to seem ungratefull. I just wanted you to read them too and see what I was talking about. Not much substance at all to those guys posts. And the follow ups even more useless... |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by Savage_Rob on 10/17/04 at 17:11:53 Well, not that I wouldn't like to hear your report (because I'm looking at buying a new muffler to replace my stock) but just so you have the option, I saw this like new stock exhaust (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=35596&item=2494477727&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW) on eBay (current bid at $56). Just a thought since you said you liked the original. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by cphilip on 10/17/04 at 17:44:07 I am following that one and one other currently Rob. I put two on Watch Friday as a matter of fact. Thats one of them...But thanks. I will watch them and decide. I mean I have until Tuesday minimum to do that. No hurry really. The both look good but then again who knows how much internal rust has occured to them since setting up. And I expect them to get higher. The other one is Item number: 2494241343 But one thing I am thinking is at this point they are almost as much as the 80 some bucks I would and could use to try this MAC thing. However that being said we know they seem to be good ones. The OEM ones.... of then again.... thats a matter of oppinion I suppose. Certainly an option still open though. But at some point I get very currious about this other one. Might be tempeted to do it anyway. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by Susan on 10/17/04 at 18:01:41 cphilip wrote:
Yep, you were right too! There doesn't seem to be much useful experience posted on the MAC. Will be curious to know what you end up doing. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by Greg_650 on 10/18/04 at 02:50:21 cphilip wrote:
Unfortunately bikes are not blessed with parts options like cars, but when most bikers order replacements their focus is performance and sound with the effect of getting away from OEM standard. No one wants to buy an "aftermarket stock" muffler, so no one makes one. You may just do well to get the stocker from Ebay.... :P |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by cphilip on 10/18/04 at 06:54:21 Greg_650 wrote:
However condition inside of those will always be unknown. The gamble in that is ending up right back were you were. Just because a exhaust is a low mileage take off does not stop the interior deterioration thats going to occur once that metal is heated up very very well and its coatings burned off and it in fact probably deteriortates faster when hung up in some garage or shed for a few years and never having the moisture burned out of it on a regular basis. Which I believe is what caused the early demise of my stocker. Not enough use. I suspect that is partialy to blame here. The bike only got ridden once a month and perhaps went a few months in between if not all winter without being run. And this allows rust to build faster than a regularly used bike. So one would wonder if he was going to get a good interior pipe used. Even the seller has no way to know. He assumes it still is good. It was when he took it off. But its not in a state of hibernation. Rust is doing its thing. Always. Because he can only examine the outside he has to assume its still like it was before he replaced it. In fact it is not. Same as where mine looks almost mint outside... its coming apart on the inside. Probably from low use of the bike I would guess. So.... its a gamble to buy a used one. And to pay almost what a performance one would be that is known to be unused. I mean getting a used one for say 70 - 100 bucks is about what one can go performance and new for. So unless you could get one for like <50 it starts becoming a delema and pricey gamble. So what happens here is a person with a bad Muffler has only a few choices. Go to Suzuki and buy an OEM stocker for an unGodly high price. Rediculous actually. Or take a chance on a used one.... or go performance. And certainly I see absolutely no resonable level or market for a aftermarket "stock" type of muffler. I wouldn't make one either. I mean how many would you sell? maybe two or three a year? If that many. No way if I was a manufacturer would I consider it. And funny thing is most of the manufacturers out there barely see any market for Savages ANYWAY for ANYTHING... so.... |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by Savage_Rob on 10/18/04 at 11:06:09 Well, a new muffler is one of the things on my Xmas/birthday list (the two are within a few days of each other) and my wife told me yesterday to go ahead and order the muffler for my birthday. I went ahead and ordered the MAC. Since it is a birthday present, I may not actually be putting it on the bike until the date rolls around. Whenever I get to use it, I'll let you know what I think. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by cphilip on 10/18/04 at 12:03:11 Cool! I am very interested in what you first impression are of the workmanship. Might help me decide. That and watching and thinking on used ones. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by cphilip on 10/20/04 at 18:17:23 Update The first used Stocker on eBay went for $96 shiped. And it was described as a new take off. No description of when and what year it was taken off nor how long its been hanging up waiting for sale The second one on now is now at $81 and $14 S&H at this time. One more day and some to go. Its described as like new and used. Looks like the going rate right now is about $100.... but conditions are unkown beyond what you can tell and presume. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by Greg_650 on 10/21/04 at 02:41:38 cphilip wrote:
I should ask my spouse if she wants to sell hers. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by Savage_Rob on 10/21/04 at 10:09:51 UPS shows my MAC should be delivered today but I don't know whether I'll get now or have to wait for my birthday in late December. Maybe I can take some photos even if my wife won't let me have it yet. We'll see... |
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Title: Now its MAC under the gun! Post by cphilip on 10/21/04 at 10:35:07 OK Update.... There was a message on my cellie... this morning from the dealer said he got one of these in. And wanted me to look at it and see if I wanted it. So I tootle down there this morning when he opens and takes a look. We open the box. and its rather much a straight shot with some baffling around the edges. Chrome looks fairly well done. Hard to tell about new chrome. There was a little dimple/dent in this one. Not what I would call bomb proof packing at all. But so he says "well... if you want it I will knock off some money for it. If not no biggie, I just knew you might be interested and figured I would just go ahead and stock one". So I asked him if he was going to return it or something and he just shakes his head and says "well thats just more trouble than its worth. Trust me I have returned stuff before and its just not worth it. I'll just sell it cheap if need be rather than that". Seems all this comes from a Distributor, not factory direct stuff but a wholesaler. So I said well "how much then". He says "ok.... $75 and thats what I got in it. So I agree. Needless to say its already "pre-dinged" for me.... ::) But hell its cheap right? So I bring it back here and go to work.... Now let me tell you this thing is little more than a straight pipe with some shape and some baffling around the outside. About half the diameter of the Original stock one. First thing is to get the old one off. So I go about that. If you have not done this before (like me) it takes you a few minutes before you discover that the two Header bolts are going to need to come out so the up pipe can move a little bit to let the two rear mounting bolts clear their mount on the swingarm bracket. Once you do that it all slide off pretty easy. And leaving them lose to refit the New muffler is of course a good idea as well. Now the fit: Well it does not fit as good as Stock. Naturaly. Its not really made exactly with the same angles and in the case of the back two bolts to the swing arm they did not bother to wedge shape this like the stock one. So at first it seems its going to fit awfull. And you might be temped to quit on it right there. But by leaving everything lose and tightening things a few turns at a time, First center clamp a tad, then two head bolts down to snug then two rear swing arm bolts half way. Wiggle and rotate a bit.... continue to alternate tightening each thing... and it sort of works its way into where it wants to be and things start to draw into place and come close to decent. Not perfect. But pretty darn much closer than you would first thing it was going to. Doesn't look too bad at all when if all finaly cinches down. In fact pretty decent. Now the issue of the stock heat shield. Well they put one tab on this thing and the stock one had a double screw attachment and slide in bracket. There is not very much to hold it to. And its in a location that if you don't put it on first before you slip the new muffler on you cannot tighten a screw very well. So that small single screw should be changed to a hex head machine bolt if you do this. What I am doing now is that. I did manage to get the screw in and with an offset screwdriver get it snugg but not what I would call secure. Now that stock Heat shield is a bit large for this new smaller diameter muffler. It probably should be changed to a more flush one of some type. You might like it you might not. I will show you a picture of that soon.... Took me about and hour. Would have gone quicker if I had ever done one before. But I was carefull and deliberate. And I still will need to do some snugging now and recheck some torques today. Now to sound. THIS THING IS LOUD! I don't care what he said its loud. The funny thing is it may not be any louder than any other out there because I have no reference to say. But it does GROWL at you. I mean a VERY MEAN AND NASTY SNARL.... and at idle you can really hear where these big singles got the nickname Thumper. It does indeed now thump thump thump.... I don't know if its obnoxious. Again I am a quiet kind of guy. However oddly enough my wifes first comment was "now it sounds like a motorcycle". Now go figure. She says she likes it. She says she could never hear me pull up before and it soulds like any other motorcycle now. So well.. if chicks dig it.... erm.... 8) So lets see.... I just don't know at this point. I did get a tad more backfire this morning after testing it out. Not much. Maybe I could just hear those little ones more. I dunno. Not rode it enough to really be ready to comment on those. Let me get some pictures up... Hold on. (I am NOT out of the market for a stocker cheap. And I did, after take off of the old one find a crack near a weld in the rear of it. Probably where my noise was coming from. Not certain I can weld it though) |
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Title: Mac now Post by cphilip on 10/21/04 at 10:50:17 From rear angle side view http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=78617&stc=1 From front side view: http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=78618&stc=1 a little distance away and rear: http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=78619&stc=1 Now to get a sound clip. I was thinking of using my iSite with my Powerbook. Think that will work? I never used this stuff before so I gotta do some experimentation and learning to get a clip of it. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Savage_Rob on 10/21/04 at 14:22:28 Can't wait to get mine put on. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by cphilip on 10/21/04 at 16:15:28 Ok update. I replaced the single Phillips screw (brought over from the stocker) that was holding the heat shield on with a Hex head bolt and added a anti - vibration washer to that set up. Good fix for that issue. I retightened everything again today. Most things needed some more now that its been run in and heated and cooled a few times. Rechecked my torque on the Exhaust manifold bolts. They needed a few more pounds. And still got a bit of leak around the clamp collar that joins the main tube to the new muffler. Seeing some discoloration underneath in one spot from that exscaping gas. Can't see it from above. have to lay down and look up to see where its happening. So.... Going to go at it with the air wrench and try and get that out. I got most of it down but it does have to be colapsed on there. Takes a bunch of squishing to get it. But its coming along. Got almost all the backfire out (as much or more than before it was installed) with almost one full turn of the air mixture screw richer (counter clockwise). Not quite a full turn but a tad over 3/4 of one right now. I do not know where it was to start. But that seems to have solved most if not all of it. Almost no backfire now but I did have a tad before. Completely managable now like before. Was not as managable like before this mornings longer ride as it was before... it was a bit more pronounced so I did have to start tweeking on it. But seems very managable now. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Tim Rumple on 10/21/04 at 17:57:12 cbphillip, did you put on the Mac or the Jardine? |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by cphilip on 10/21/04 at 18:02:52 That is the MAC you see and what he got in stock and that I purchased and put on this morning. However do note that is the stock Heat Shield reused on it as it does not come with one specific for it. Which I beleive the Supertrapp does? Not certain of Jardine nor Rask if they do. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by cphilip on 10/21/04 at 18:18:57 Savage_Rob wrote:
Rob, inspect it immediately upon arrival. No matter what you do after that. And take it out of the plastic sleeve to do so. Their packaging is less than stellar. And we even thought this little ding in mine "might' have been in it before Chrome. So be very aware they may not have the best QC at all. It does claim made in USA but... none the less be warned. I am not impressed with the protection the packaging is giving it. This box looked perfect but there was a ding in this pipe. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Savage_Rob on 10/21/04 at 21:36:28 I inspected mine and it looks just fine. There are no scratches or dings at all, though I would agree that the packaging is less than one might expect - basically the muffler is in a plastic bag inside a cardboard box. I have to say though that it was shipped from the factory in CA via UPS Ground, arrived in 3 days and survived unscathed. Maybe they've found that packaging to be sufficient but if I weree the sender, I would have preferred at least some crumpled paper to suspend the product in the box just a bit. I see what you mean about being a straight pipe. There is baffling lining the walls of it but about a 2" diameter straight path for airflow right through the center. I'll likely get it on this weekend. I definitely appreciate the opportunity to gain from your experience on the installation. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/23/04 at 02:48:40 cphilip wrote:
SuperTrapp comes with a small one. Raask doesn't come with one, but doesn't need one. I think the stock and Trapp heatshields are mostly cosmetic anyway and just intended to hide the clamping hardware. The MAC looks pretty good in the picture. You can buy aftermarket heatshields to replace the stocker if you want. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by cphilip on 10/23/04 at 06:56:52 Thats really all this one needs is a hiding plate for that joint. I need to look around for one. This one looks kind of odd with its wide flare matching to a smaller pipe. I think this thing is very much like the Raask. In more ways than just one. Anyone got a picture of that one? |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/23/04 at 09:36:47 cphilip wrote:
Lot's of aftermarket pipe places sell different length and size heatshields. Quote:
Except that a Raask is one piece with a larger ID throughout than the stock header pipe....also needs only one rear bolt to mount Got a picture? Are you kidding? http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/215/215131/folders/156326/1257119Pipe1.jpg |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Savage_Rob on 10/23/04 at 21:14:11 Got my MAC put on today and wow, what a difference in sound! If I had to guess, I'd say it probably has about the same flow as a Raask but just slightly quieter due to the baffle lining on the walls. Seems to run just fine. I was concerened it would be noticeably leaner because of the improved airflow and that it would cause a lot more backfiring. I guess having the idle mixture screw backed out as far as it'll go (and stuck there, it seems) is enough to offset the worst. I'll probably rejet it next weekend and go to about a 146. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/24/04 at 05:10:02 Savage_Rob wrote:
My Dear Mr. Savage_Rob: CONGRATS on your new pipe, but I have to be nitpicky with your last sentence.... You have been surfing these pages a long time, and I'm sure that after all this time, that you really know that a 146 main jet doesn't exist. I know very well that you've never heard anyone say anything about a jet of that size, and even if they did you'd only be making the "radical" change of .01 MM on your main jet....about .0003937" in diameter :o and I know that you don't want to waste your time with that mod :P For those that don't know, let's just refresh this topic a bit... Jets come in increments of .025 MM (rounded ~.001"). A stock "145" main jet in real numbers is 1.45 MM and the next choice is 1.475 MM or a 147.5 main jet. The sizes continue like 150, 152.5, 155, 157.5 and 160.....and in "inches" we have .057", .058", .059", .060", .061", .062", and .063" (see the trend?) (I love metrics, too) Now back to your new Mac pipe (which seems like another pretty good Savage option)....don't even waste your time changing to the next size, a 147.5. Go ahead and take the plunge and pop at least a 150 in there. It's only a .002" increase. But if it were me, I'd go to a 152.5 or even 155. BTW - with my Raask, I'm running a 157.5. I tried a 160, but it was too rich. Come on, jets are cheap. Buy a handfull and play with it and don't wait for something to turn blue 8) BTW2 - A Raask also has an internal baffle tube and has an optional removable center baffle (to make the cops happy) |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/24/04 at 07:06:03 Keihin jets go up in steps of 2 and 3 just to avoid half numbers. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/24/04 at 07:09:00 That would be .02 and .03 MM each, right? Think I'll go check out Ebay for that carb again :D |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/24/04 at 07:40:54 Nope. Couldn't find a FCR41 today. Have to keep looking :P |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/24/04 at 07:51:56 Jets may have the same bore size but if the taper in and out are different they will flow different. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by rkutzner on 10/24/04 at 12:10:35 Greg_650 wrote:
Any other mods to the spouses bike like a K&N or does she just have the Supertrapp? I'm open to using someone elses similar setup as a 'starting point'. Hopefully when I do the valve clearance check at 600 miles... |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Savage_Rob on 10/24/04 at 17:38:02 Well, I've been surfing this site since July and have read several topics, that's true. I did not take particular note of which specific ranges of jets were mentioned nor by whom. I can, however, assure you the Dynojet kit I have does indeed have a 146 main included in it (along with several others starting with a 138, I believe). I used the 146 today. There was a stock Mikuni 145 in the carb to begin with and it did concern me that the largest in the kit was a 146 but from reading another post just today, it seems the Dynojet jets are different from the Minkuni jets. In any case, it seems to be running pretty well though I do intend to get a handful of the Mikuni mains to play with because I think it's still a bit lean. I also have a K&N direct replacement for the stock filter. While I was in it I replaced the needle with the new Dynojet version and replaced all of the stock screws with stainless hex-head versions to make it easier to get to next time. Also, I was unaware that any baffling existed on the Raaske since everyone always refers to it as a straight pipe. I've never seen one in person. Your note that it does contain baffles make me wonder if the MAC may not then be very similar in function, but as a slip-on rather than a full pipe. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by mownor on 10/24/04 at 18:35:34 Ok, let me stick my oar in. Greg is right, stock Mikuni main jets come in 2.5 intervals. Savage Rob is right, Dynojet has main jets from 138 to 146 in increments of 2. Dynojets have a different construction from stock so they run richer than stock for the same size. Note also that their jet needle actually has six clip positions so you can ignore the infamous white spacer. All very well, but the Dynojet includes such superfluous stuff as a drill and a screw for the brass plug over the idle mixture screw and costs LOTS. So for anyone contemplating this mod: If you're not comfortable with your own skills or the advice you might get on this forum then go for the DynoJet kit - it will walk you through every step and you'll be happy. After you are done you'll wonder why you spent so much cash. If you can handle some minor mechanical thought and work then buy three or four main jets from the stealer and play with the spacer thickness. And don't be shy about asking for help - there are some very knowledgeable dudes here who are just dying to help you. Alright, I'm done. M. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Savage_Rob on 10/24/04 at 19:05:07 Yup. I initially bought the kit about a month ago because I assumed it would have everything I'd need. I am just learning about this bike. I'm competent with tools, I understand the basics of an internal combustion engine and I am good with electrical systems. However, I've never done any major work on a bike before... just stuff like oil changes, chain adjustments, etc. (and the last bike I had was over 15 years ago). Any engine work I'd done in the past was cage 8-cylinders - 283's, 350's, etc. and that was in the 70's. While I'm not afraid of doing my own wrenching (looking forward to it, in fact), I am still quite ignorant (the difference between ignorance and stupidity being that ignorance is correctable) and learning a lot. I just wanted to let folks know where I am coming from. I am nowhere near "well versed" or "knowledgeable"... just enjoying my bike and gaining from others' experience here. Thanks to all of you. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... Post by Greg_650 on 10/25/04 at 02:47:44 rkutzner wrote:
Nope. Aside from those hers is stock. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/25/04 at 03:02:07 Savage_Rob wrote:
Oops. Maybe I missed the part that you had gotten a Dynojet kit. I thought that you were talking Mikuni jets. My mistake. In form and function you might say the Raask and Mac are similar. Yes, it is a straight pipe but with a sound absorbing baffle tube in the last half. It is available with an additional removable baffle (that stays removed on mine). The big difference is the ID of the pipe. Both the stock header and the Raask are double walled, as you know, but the difference is the ID of the inner wall at the exhaust port outlet. The Raask is 1/4" larger in ID throught the header and then the baffle tube is also the same ID at the outlet. So from this respect, the Raask is different and also freer flowing. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Savage_Rob on 10/25/04 at 07:15:08 Quote:
You didn't miss it. I never mentioned it. Until yesterday, I didn't know it was relevant to the discussion. I knew I'd seen larger jets mentioned but also saw that my kit only went as high as the 146. To be honest, I figured Dynojet was keeping within a specific range in that kit and probably offered larger jets separately. I'd already determined I spent too much on that kit (for what it provides), chalked it up to a learning curve and decided to just grab several Mikuni jets from the dealer instead of checking for larger ones at Dynojet. However, it feels fairly close now. I think I may also play with the adjustments on the needle over the next few weeks just to have a first-hand feel for how it affects things. When the option is available, there's just nothing like seeing/hearing/feeling it for myself. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/25/04 at 07:30:02 Savage_Rob wrote:
Ah ha! So you were withholding relevant information! That's no fair. Besides, just consider the consequences of a newbie joining this forum and hearing about a 146 main jet. He'd look like a real idiot going to the dealer and asking for one ::) He'd never believe anything that he heard on SuzukiSavage.com after that too. He might even go to one of the other forums and bad mouth us for not giving accurate information....it could be a disaster :o |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Savage_Rob on 10/25/04 at 09:27:32 Like I said, until yesterday I didn't know there was any difference between the jets offered by Dynojet and those offered by Mikuni. In some ways, I am that n00b reading this forum... hopefully less so each day though. Heck, if I wasn't such a n00b, I wouldn't have bought the kit from Dynojet in the first place. In my defense though, I ordered the kit over two months ago and then decided not to bother with it until I replaced the muffler. Since I put the MAC on this past weekend, I broke out the kit. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/25/04 at 11:26:06 Savage_Rob wrote:
Hey, it is all good. I've heard of these kits and others have had them installed by a dealer. That ended with no knowledge to share, because they couldn't say what was used or how. You have the kit, and we can all learn something now. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by cphilip on 10/25/04 at 18:07:08 Greg_650 wrote:
Holy crap! nope.... that ain't nuttin like this MAC at all.... thanks Greg. Loud ain't it Rob? But its growing on me!!! |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/26/04 at 02:50:05 Growing on you? Yes, in deedie it do. I had the Trapp for 2 years while my spouse stayed stock. She'd constantly tell me that mine was too loud, or ask that she lead, so she wouldn't have to listen to it. She said she liked hers quiet. Then one day after I installed the Raask (as the Trapp lay forlorn and forgotten in the box) she says that she wants to try the Trapp (I was going to sell it). She took the time to polish off the blue and we installed it. Now you couldn't talk her out of it for anything. Incidentally, I blued the Trapp while experimenting with jets and when I got them right, I never polished off the blue. When we put it on hers, I changed the jets at the same time....the blue never came back. That was over a year ago. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/26/04 at 02:55:55 Oh yeah.... Personally, I like the looks and appearance of the Raask better than any other pipe. I like the simple construction and clean lines. However, I think that the megaphone sound of the Trapp is nicer and more mellow. It really produces a nice "Thump" sound. The Raask is looks and performance, but the Trapp does sound great. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/26/04 at 03:01:06 Okay (one more thing)... Which one of you guys is gonna make a sound clip of the Mac? I made the other 3 and need to complete the collection ::) |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Savage_Rob on 10/26/04 at 05:45:30 Yeah, it's seriously different than the stock. It's a rhythmic thump (and quite loud) - most definitely indicative of the nickname. And yes, it's most definitely growing on me. I'm not sure about the best way to record it. Maybe my Palm's voice recorder. I've never actually used it but I think it records WAV files. I'll give it a shot this evening. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/26/04 at 05:51:52 Good. I record mine with a Sony Voice recorder in wav. format too. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by cphilip on 10/26/04 at 07:12:43 Ok well I am sound bite ignorant. I have some equipment here but need to really figure out how to use it. I have a iSite camera that has built in microphone in it. Plus I have a Apple set up both desk top and lap top. I know these things are really good at that and the software is all here but I have no experience putting it all together. Let me see if I can fiddle with it today and get something done learning. Any tips from the Mac people on that would be nice. And knowing the format you want is going to be help full. I will try and see what I can produce today. WAV is it.... But don't count on me just yet. As I know not what I do.... ;D Greg, where can I listen to your clips? |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Susan on 10/26/04 at 07:42:56 I've been away for a week and am just catching up with posts. In reading this thread, it seems to me like we need a definitive topic about exhausts, white spacer, needle, and jetting options. A bit of a primer if you will. We get lots of newbies asking questions about one or all of these and it would be great to have a topic to use as reference. Anyone want to take a stab at it? I would but I know nothing about it yet other than what I've read... I was thinking we could list the various options, along with descriptions, costs, thoughts, helpful hints. Something like: Description of Stock Exhaust Setup: Commentary on what it is (components); why its lean etc... Modifications: Commentary on various modifications that can be made to stock exhaust, followed by detailed info on each.
Commentary on reasons to change exhaust, followed by details on each exhaust option
If you want me to do it, let me know if anything should be added to the lists above. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/26/04 at 08:32:26 It's an idea, but with the current setup of this forum, topics disappear from view unless kept active. A way to archive would be nice. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/26/04 at 08:34:27 cphilip wrote:
In the privacy of your own home, if you wish :P |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by cphilip on 10/26/04 at 09:39:22 I do indeed wish too! Where are they? |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Savage_Rob on 10/26/04 at 10:06:09 Quote:
Actually, the MAC factory is in California. There are separate Canadian and US distributorships on the web. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/26/04 at 10:34:01 cphilip wrote:
In your mailbox... |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/26/04 at 10:37:34 Looking in my jet box from my dynojet days I find there is a 155 mainjet, I've been lead to believe there should be a 154 or a 156 ??? Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Savage_Rob on 10/26/04 at 10:41:08 If I'm getting this right now, the Mikuni jets are in 2.5 increments such that it would number 145, 147.5, 150, 152.5, 155, etc. Is that correct? I know the Dynojet jets I have are in increments of 2 ranging from 138 to 146 and the Mikuni jet I removed from my carb was a 145. Is it possible that's actually a Mikuni jet leftover? |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/26/04 at 10:58:57 klx650sm2002 wrote:
You just had to, didn't you? :P Just when it was all sorted out, you have make me confused again. Maybe that's a jet that you replaced in your "Dynojet days". |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Susan on 10/26/04 at 11:22:25 Greg_650 wrote:
Actually there is a way to lock topics (I bet we'd have to get John H to do it but I bet it can be done -- see the legend at the bottom of the page, it includes a locked topic icon...) I am assuming locking them means they stay at the top not that they can't be posted to -- I would have to verify this, of course. We could lock a couple of topics like the one I was suggesting and the mods over time one. I'll follow up with John if folks think it is a good idea... |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by cphilip on 10/26/04 at 11:52:17 No locking them does not keep them up. It just keeps you from further posting on them. There is a "Stick thread option" that does that though in most Bulletin software. The simplest way is to open up another forum such as "Archive", "FAQ" or even titled "Historic" and move threads that contain a lot of detail there and leave them open. But just limit them to a single subject and only a few of them. That way they stay on the radar screen. Within this Board there is an option to create such a forum. And then the Admin would move them there. A choice selection of them. Thats the easiest way to do it. And we would have to enlist John to do it. And he would then have to move any threads that crop up there back over to here to keep it clean and tidy and only those select threads. Or you can change forum permissions to veiw only that forum. No one could add to them. Several simple ways to do that within the Software. And with Admin powers. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Susan on 10/26/04 at 19:07:27 I contacted John and asked him how we could make sticky topics and he made me moderator which means I can do it...me and my big mouth. :o Anyway as a starting point and to see if it worked, I made the "mods over time" topic sticky and it is now showing up on top. Sooo anyone up for tackling the exhaust, jetting summary topic I mentioned above? I will do it if no one else wants to but will need some editing help and no laughing... ::) |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/27/04 at 04:10:20 The dynojet 155 main was listed on the spec sheet for the kit. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/27/04 at 04:18:51 Susan wrote:
Now, now. You know that no one would laugh at you ;D |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/27/04 at 04:20:02 klx650sm2002 wrote:
AAHHHH! Doesn't anyone have a set of gage pins? ??? |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/27/04 at 04:34:36 In our 500 cc four cyl two stroke we used to get the jets flow tested to make sure all four ran the same, we also matched ports, compressions, squishes, pipes and stinger lenghts/diameters Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/27/04 at 04:46:16 And this is the 400 cc thumper that was an embarrassment to HD riders 8) http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/215/215131/folders/156030/1286079Yamaha400.jpg |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Savage_Rob on 10/27/04 at 06:22:27 Looks like I'll need to find some other way to get a sound clip. I was able to record it with my Palm's voice recorder but it's only clear at idle. When I rev it at all it becomes extremely distorted and really sounds like crap... just too loud I guess. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/27/04 at 08:34:26 That looks like an old DT 400, allways fancied one. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by cphilip on 10/27/04 at 09:47:12 I am still waiting on my local Mac Geek to get back to me on how to use what I got to do it Rob.... But.... after listening to Gregs sounds clips.... I can say that its Very close the the Raask pipe and somewhat close to the Jardine in sound. Both those were similar to me.... But the Super Trapp was superior in sound to all of them. Well I guess its a matter of oppionion but it was "mellower" at high rev. Similar at idle. But a sort of mutted buttery tone at "squalling rev". A bit more smooth than the rest. If you like that sort of thing. Perhaps you don't. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Savage_Rob on 10/27/04 at 11:04:20 I would agree except that I don't have a sound clip of the Supertrapp to try. Greg sent me the other two yesterday. The sound of the MAC is a bit deeper than either of those recordings but that may not mean it's deeper than the actual exhausts... just that the recordings are not absolutely true to life. I'll see what I can come up with on my end. Both of my PCs are desktops - not laptops, so I'll need to do something else. Maybe use a tape recorder and then transfer to the sound card on the PC... hmmmmm. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/27/04 at 11:08:30 klx650sm2002 wrote:
Exactly! And you have no idea how long I searched the web for a good digital picture. None of my old conventional photos are worth scanning. I eventually stripped it down, installed a plastic tank and fenders, new shocks, stiffer reed valve, over bore kit....that bike would pull stumps, wheelie, or kill you trying. Oh and did I mention "Diesel"? That was one of the known wierd things about that engine. All you had to do was miss shift and slam the throttle open at the same time....next thing you'd know it was wide open and the kill switch wouldn't stop it. The darn engine would redline without a spark and the only way to stop it was dump the clutch....always good for a rush. It was good that I was only 28 when I had that bike 8) |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/27/04 at 11:13:24 Savage_Rob wrote:
WAIT! Now I remember. I got a message that said your mailbox was full when I sent the 3rd sound clip. I figured that I'd wait for you to empty it.... Off to the email side of my browser now..... :o |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Savage_Rob on 10/28/04 at 07:13:43 Okay, got it. I'd say the MAC sounds somewhere between the Raaske and SuperTrapp, leaning more toward the Raaske side. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/28/04 at 08:10:43 Isn't there supposed to be a little job description symbol between the eagle and the 3 stripes?...Maybe a motorcycle would be good ::) |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Savage_Rob on 10/28/04 at 08:17:50 On some crows, yes. Those on dress uniforms will have it while those on dungarees and work jackets, etc. won't. The color on this one looks like that of a work jacket. Also, though I don't remember for sure, it seems like there were three groupings like seaman/airman/fireman that used different color stripes for the dress blues. Seaman had white, airman had green and fireman had red. Seems like it all became one set once you made E-4 and wore chevrons instead of stripes. That is, until you reached gold lifer status with like 16 years straight good conduct... then yours became gold. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by bobo383 on 10/29/04 at 05:17:47 Back to the carb info compilation idea -- that's a good one. There's plenty knowledge and experience on this site, so wrenchers new to the savage can read up on what has and has not worked. I yanked out my spacer and the bike ran great, but the screw had to be all the way in to idle and the airbox always had gasoline in it. OK, but not really good. So I put the spacer back in and got advice from the site that a 152.5 or 155 main would work well. I agree the question keeps coming up and keeps getting re-answered. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by cphilip on 10/29/04 at 08:00:01 bobo383 wrote:
No matter what we do this will keep happening. Its the nature of the internet that people will never look around before asking the same question over and over again.... ::) But yea... you gotta try. And have some place to point them to. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/29/04 at 08:51:45 I know that I've gone through the same conversations for over 3 years now. "How to carb...pipe...grips....pegs...oil change...tires...oil leak...windshield...and on and on". A related topic can be right on the main page and someone will just start a new topic about the same thing without reading anything. "Hi, I'm new to riding and I have a question...." Then you duplicate it all over again. Shoot, some of the current topics are intermixed with the same stuff anyway. Sometimes you feel like saying, "Hey stupid, why don't you read a little bit lower down? It's all right there!" BUT we don't....we like to chat about bikes too much and we certainly don't want to run anyone off :P |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Susan on 10/29/04 at 13:58:22 All is true but with a summary in the Tech Corner we could just point someone to it when the question gets asked. As a starting point anyway... |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/30/04 at 04:08:33 Susan wrote:
Exactly, and I'll certainly be willing to assist you. Then after a new rider reads the material in the tech corner, we (as a forum) can discuss things without so much repetition, and the new rider can go back to one place for reference. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Susan on 10/30/04 at 06:50:41 I'll work on it but it may take a while. I'll send you something when I have it ready. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Savage_Rob on 10/30/04 at 15:19:36 I am really liking this MAC muffler. I have to find a way to get it recorded as a sound clip on the PC. |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Greg_650 on 10/31/04 at 03:12:20 Savage_Rob wrote:
A Sony Voice Recorder is small and compact. Good spy type stuff...about $130. Can you get your bike in the computer room? |
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Title: Re: Jardine again..... (now MAC) Post by Savage_Rob on 11/01/04 at 07:37:17 Sorry, better things to spend $130 on that I'd use more than once or twice. I can't get the bike there but I may be able to get a mic to the garage on an extension cord. |
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