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Message started by MnSpring on 03/04/25 at 04:58:59

Title: Nato
Post by MnSpring on 03/04/25 at 04:58:59

Top 10 NATO Countries with the Highest Defense Expenditures
(by total US$)

United States $860,000
Germany. $68,080
United Kingdom $65,763
France. $56,649
Italy. $31,585
Poland. $29,105
Canada. $28,950
Spain. $19,179
Netherlands. $16,741
Turkey. $15,842

Title: Re: Nato
Post by Eegore on 03/04/25 at 05:22:31

Top 10 by GDP in 2024:

Poland: 4.1% of GDP
Estonia: 3.4% of GDP
United States: 3.4% of GDP
Latvia: 3.2% of GDP
Greece: 3.1% of GDP
Lithuania: 2.54% of GDP
Finland: 2.45% of GDP
Romania: 2.44% of GDP
Hungary: 2.43% of GDP
United Kingdom: 2.3% of GDP

https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2024/6/pdf/240617-def-exp-2024-en.pdf

Title: Re: Nato
Post by MnSpring on 03/04/25 at 05:46:34

"...Gross National Product (GNP) measures the total value of all goods and services produced by a country's residents and businesses, regardless of where the production occurs. It includes personal consumption, government spending, ..."

"...GNP does not include intermediate goods and services to avoid double-counting since they are already incorporated in the value of final goods and services. ..."

"... The U.S. used GNP until 1991 as its main measure of economic activity. After that point, it started to use GDP in its place for two main reasons.2 First, GDP corresponds more closely to other U.S. economic data of interest to policymakers, The Difference Between GNP and GDP ..."

"... GNP and GDP are very closely related concepts, and the main differences between them come from the fact that there may be companies owned by foreign residents that produce goods in the country, and companies owned by domestic residents that produce goods for the rest of the world ..."

Title: Re: Nato
Post by Eegore on 03/04/25 at 07:25:04

My opinion is knowing the difference between GNP and GDP is valuable and also it is my opinion that NATO calculations use specific guidelines and the analysis math should use the same algorithms.

It is my opinion that the 2023 Vilnius Summit, NATO Leaders agreed on the Defense Investment Pledge making a continual commitment to investing at least 2% of GDP annually on defense.

It is my opinion that while they agree on GDP - NSIP utilizes an agreed cost-sharing formula derived from the GNI - Gross National Income of NATO members for what they call Common Funding Arrangements.

It is my opinion the other two budgets use GDP for various reasons.

It is my opinion that if we use all three budget allocations we get a different list:

United States: 16.1964
Germany: 16.1964
United Kingdom: 11.1801
France: 10.3963
Italy: 8.7017
Spain: 5.9365
Canada: 6.8166
Turkey: 4.6838
Netherlands: 3.4193
Poland: 2.9591

So in my opinion the analysis feature can slightly alter the outcomes depending on how closely we want to match budget algorithms. No matter how we look at the math - it is my opinion - that the US will always be on the top of that list as long as the highest number is on top - this is of course my opinion.

Title: Re: Nato
Post by Serowbot on 03/04/25 at 07:42:00

Wait.... now that we've changed sides, we should compare our expenditures to Russia, China, and North Korea

MAGA :-?

Title: Re: Nato
Post by WebsterMark on 03/04/25 at 08:12:04

Nobody’s changed sides, but Trump is apparently the only one interested in stopping young men from being killed.

Here’s the thing, any other plan put in place by these European nations, involves a longer war and at the end of the day, Ukraine is still going to lose. Or there’s gonna be a massive outbreak with numerous countries. You’re not going to beat Russia if they don’t want to be beaten unless we have an all out battle that includes us, or a whole bunch of people from some European nations. I saw Canada said they would send some aircraft today. Wait till one of them gets shot down.

Title: Re: Nato
Post by zevenenergie on 03/04/25 at 09:54:56

I totally agree with you.

To me it seems like NATO really wants to start a third world war even though Trump is trying to prevent it.

Europe wants to invest 800 billion in defense, but that costs 1700 euros per capita. I know better ways to spend my money.

Investing money in defense is throwing money away.

It's better to build good business relationships and invest money in things that reduce tension.
Trump was also doing well with the Abraham accords.

Title: Re: Nato
Post by Serowbot on 03/04/25 at 10:11:12

Right vs wrong?
No
Likely winner vs likely loser
Yes

Has Trump made a single move against Putin?
If Trump were Putin's puppet, what might he have done any different?
That was rhetorical.. Trump is Putin's puppet :-?

Title: Re: Nato
Post by zevenenergie on 03/04/25 at 12:42:24

I don't think Trump is the type to be tied to strings.
If so, can you point out the strings?

Title: Re: Nato
Post by JOG on 03/04/25 at 20:26:21

Trump is Putin's puppet

Waiting for arbiter of truth to correct the delusional

Title: Re: Nato
Post by ThumperPaul on 03/05/25 at 04:44:40

Former President of Poland Lech Walesa wrote the following letter to Trump.

Your Excellency, Mr. President,

We watched the report of your conversation with the President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelensky, with fear and distaste. We find it insulting that you expect Ukraine to show respect and gratitude for the material assistance provided by the United States in its fight against russia. Gratitude is owed to the heroic Ukrainian soldiers who shed their blood in defense of the values of the free world. They have been dying on the front lines for more than 11 years in the name of these values and the independence of their homeland, which was attacked by Putin’s russia.

We do not understand how the leader of a country that symbolizes the free world cannot recognize this.

Our alarm was also heightened by the atmosphere in the Oval Office during this conversation, which reminded us of the interrogations we endured at the hands of the Security Services and the debates in Communist courts. Prosecutors and judges, acting on behalf of the all-powerful communist political police, would explain to us that they held all the power while we held none. They demanded that we cease our activities, arguing that thousands of innocent people suffered because of us. They stripped us of our freedoms and civil rights because we refused to cooperate with the government or express gratitude for our oppression. We are shocked that President Volodymyr Zelensky was treated in the same manner.

The history of the 20th century shows that whenever the United States sought to distance itself from democratic values and its European allies, it ultimately became a threat to itself. President Woodrow Wilson understood this when he decided in 1917 that the United States must join World War I. President Franklin Delano Roosevelt understood this when, after the attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941, he resolved that the war to defend America must be fought not only in the Pacific but also in Europe, in alliance with the nations under attack by the Third Reich.

We remember that without President Ronald Reagan and America’s financial commitment, the collapse of the Soviet empire would not have been possible. President Reagan recognized that millions of enslaved people suffered in Soviet russia and the countries it had subjugated, including thousands of political prisoners who paid for their defense of democratic values with their freedom. His greatness lay, among other things, in his unwavering decision to call the USSR an “Empire of Evil” and to fight it decisively. We won, and today, the statue of President Ronald Reagan stands in Warsaw, facing the U.S. Embassy.

Mr. President, material aid—military and financial—can never be equated with the blood shed in the name of Ukraine’s independence and the freedom of Europe and the entire free world. Human life is priceless; its value cannot be measured in money. Gratitude is due to those who sacrifice their blood and their freedom. This is self-evident to us, the people of Solidarity, former political prisoners of the communist regime under Soviet russia.

We call on the United States to uphold the guarantees made alongside Great Britain in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, which established a direct obligation to defend Ukraine’s territorial integrity in exchange for its relinquishment of nuclear weapons. These guarantees are unconditional—there is no mention of treating such assistance as an economic transaction.

Signed,

Lech Wa[ch322][ch281]sa, former political prisoner, President of Poland

Title: Re: Nato
Post by Eegore on 03/05/25 at 05:23:45

Trump is Putin's puppet

Waiting for arbiter of truth to correct the delusional

Go ahead and point out where I've commented on Your own posts in regard to this topic.

Title: Re: Nato
Post by WebsterMark on 03/05/25 at 05:34:13

One thing I can’t stand is leftist pointing back in time to Reagan in gratitude. When he was working with Thatcher to bankrupt the USSR, the left was all over him as being stupid and out of touch. As unhinged as they were back then towards Reagan, they’re 10 times more unhinged towards Trump so I don’t give a Fxxk what Walesa’s opinion is.

Once again, Trump’s plan is the only plan that stops the war. Governor Trudeau said yesterday, Canada was ready to participate in the war, probably with a few jets. What an idiot. What happens when one gets shot down and a pilot killed or worse, captured?

Trump’s plan to bring American companies in for the rare earth metals etc means Putin will not attack with the US there. Face it, wars have consequences and Ukraine has lost some territory. Maybe it will gain it back in the future, but not now.

F’ing leftist will sacrifice innocent lives ,as shown last night during the Joint Session, for illegals to stream across an open border so they’ve got someone to pick their fruit, vegetables, cut grass, clean pools and cook good Mexican food. They’ll sacrifice little girls playing sports with confused , but much bigger and stronger athletic boys and they’ll willing to sacrifice more young men from Ukraine because it’s not leftist doing the dying.

Ann Coulter was spot on when she said liberalism is a mental disease.

Title: Re: Nato
Post by WebsterMark on 03/05/25 at 05:36:47

3224332E36232E35410 wrote:

You have your moments of common sense and clarity but this Putin’s puppet gig you keep returning to is idiotic. Especially since the previous president, Pudd’nhead, facilitated his son’s business prospects over there….talk about a puppet.
come up with a new gig man you’re smarter than that.

Title: Re: Nato
Post by MnSpring on 03/05/25 at 06:28:55

4B797E6F68796E517D6E771C0 wrote:

A-Yep !

Standard, for the UL, DFI, WOKE, FDS Socialists.

Title: Re: Nato
Post by JOG on 03/05/25 at 06:43:57

Topic is immaterial.
You split hairs with me on minutiae.
And just walk right by what delusion others live in. A delusion proven in court.
The whole Russia, Russia, Russia thing was disproved or he would have been in prison.

Title: Re: Nato
Post by Eegore on 03/05/25 at 16:18:01

Topic is immaterial.

Then follow Your own expectations, lead by example, comment on every single topic.

You split hairs with me on minutiae.

You consistently post lies and then choose to argue about it after I read it for you. Other times you just choose to chime in on things you know nothing about, for instance I never invited you to come argue about electron microscope slides, you chose to do that - After we already agreed that it doesn't matter.

And just walk right by what delusion others live in. A delusion proven in court.
The whole Russia, Russia, Russia thing was disproved or he would have been in prison.

Post an example of me commenting on one of Your posts about this topic.

I'm obviously not going to use the forum in a capacity that is conducive to your happiness and never have, how long are you going to expect it?

Title: Re: Nato
Post by MnSpring on 03/06/25 at 04:45:09

735351594453360 wrote:

"... You consistently post lies ..."

Is that you 'opinion', or is it a 'Fact' ?

735351594453360 wrote:

. "... after I read it for you. ..."

So you read something, for someone else, would that be observed reality ? Could that observed reality be observed differently by two different people ?

Which begs the answer to the question.

If FOX news reports on a event, and CNN reports on the same event.

(KEY WORDS - SAME EVENT)

Why are their two different, (Totally Different) views/reports/interpretation, of the exact same event ?

Title: Re: Nato
Post by Eegore on 03/06/25 at 15:24:03

Is that you 'opinion', or is it a 'Fact' ?

It is my opinion supported by objective truth, like the very source saying it is not true, that multiple references are lies. The question is would the human that Observes the information know more than the one who does not Observe the information?

So you read something, for someone else, would that be observed reality ? Could that observed reality be observed differently by two different people ?

In my opinion Yes. However, in my opinion, it is not Observed by anyone who references it, but will not read otherwise look at it - so in my example it can not be Observed by two different humans because one human will not Observe it. They instead choose to argue with the human that read it for them. This is my opinion.

So in my example, it is my opinion, that one human Observes information and is challenged by the human that chooses not to Observe information.

Which begs the answer to the question.

If FOX news reports on a event, and CNN reports on the same event.

(KEY WORDS - SAME EVENT)

Why are their two different, (Totally Different) views/reports/interpretation, of the exact same event ?

My opinion is because they report it differently. In my opinion a human that only Observes FOX will have a different Observed Reality than one who only Observes CNN. This is my opinion.

This post is an opinion.

Title: Re: Nato
Post by Serowbot on 03/07/25 at 07:41:45

7E4B58405B5C584B5D390 wrote:

The whole Russia, Russia, Russia thing was disproved or he would have been in prison.

Rather than repeating a word three times like you're summoning a genie,... you should actually look into what actually occurred
... and see what continues to occur

MAGA

Title: Re: Nato
Post by JOG on 03/07/25 at 20:56:31

6141434B5641240 wrote:

And you say NOTHING about the claims that Trump is a Russian puppet.
Delusional lies.

Title: Re: Nato
Post by Eegore on 03/08/25 at 07:25:30

And you say NOTHING about the claims that Trump is a Russian puppet.
Delusional lies.

Provide an example of me commenting on one of Your posts on this topic.

When You start commenting on every single topic You have grounds to demand it of others. How many members here complain that You do not comment about specific topics? It's almost like they think you have autonomy, freedom, and a life to live outside this forum so they don't get all sad if you don't comment in the timeframe they think you should - on the topics they decide You should comment on.

Or maybe they don't need to artificially inflate their egos by correlating forum responses to some superiority complex, almost as if people can refuse to respond for reasons other than being so inept towards a superior comment they could never type up a sentence in response.

How many years do I need to use this forum in a way you do not like for you to accept I will not use this forum how you want me to?