SuzukiSavage.com - Print Page

SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl
General Category >> The Cafe >> Oil Additives are not desirable!!!!!!
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1734180797

Message started by Dave on 12/14/24 at 04:53:17

Title: Oil Additives are not desirable!!!!!!
Post by Dave on 12/14/24 at 04:53:17

Years ago motor oils were somewhat primitive, and the use of additives to correct for engine wear or for "dirty" engines was sometimes necessary. Stuck rings, clogged lifters, scored cylinders, etc. were not all that unusual. It was not unusual for engines to be worn out and in need of a rebuild at 100,000 miles......cylinders with large ridges at the top of the bore was common.

Modern engines and motor oils are far different today. Fuel injection, better materials and better oil have all created an environment where a properly maintained engine can last a very long time. I just talked to a fellow yesterday with a Toyota Tercel that has 403,000 miles on it and runs fine. I just sold my Pontiac Vibe with 210,000 miles and it still runs flawlessly....... and I fully expect it to be one of those engines that can get to the 300,000+ miles if the new owners care for it.

While my wife is watching her shows on TV, I have watched several YouTube videos recently from Lake Speed Jr. - he is a motor oil "Tribologist"....he is a professional at engineering and and creating motor oils. His videos are independent and he is not sponsored by any oil company....or engine manufacturer.

In the attached videos he looks at engine additives. There are two things that he states in this video that pretty much summarize the very long and informative video.
1) If you need additives - you are using the wrong oil.
2) No OEM manufacturer recommends using additives in their engines.

He also explains that every motor oil you buy has a base oil that comes from one of a handful of manufacturers, and the same is true of the additives. Each company buys the base oils and additives and blend them to create their motor oil product. There can be as many as 14 additives blended into each oil - and when you add another additive you can create a situation where the ingredients combine and actually create an oil that is worse for your engine. As an example ZDDP at low levels can allow wear in your engine - while too much ZDDP is corrosive!

For this video the message is simple (but long). There is no reason to be adding anything to your motor oil - you are not going to be able to create anything superior to what is blended by the professionals.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAGT5inQScE[/media]

Title: Re: Oil Additives are not desirable!!!!!!
Post by Dave on 12/14/24 at 04:58:51

One of the motor oils for your car that looks promising is Valvoline Restore and Protect. It has the ability to clean out deposits and keep your motor clean inside. It can clean out ring grooves and allow the rings to move in the rings grooves properly. (This is not for use in your Savage, as the ZDDP levels are too low.)

In this video he shows the testing that Valvoline has done.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyyZDghgdCI&t=1104s[/media]

Title: Re: Oil Additives are not desirable!!!!!!
Post by Dave on 12/14/24 at 05:02:30

Another motor oil that looks really good for your car/truck/SUV is the Pennzoil Ultra Platinum.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqBJQ23NFYc[/media]

Title: Re: Oil Additives are not desirable!!!!!!
Post by Dave on 12/14/24 at 05:09:05

Motorcycle oil:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igfiCx4QOrI[/media]

Title: Re: Oil Additives are not desirable!!!!!!
Post by Dave on 12/14/24 at 05:33:04

Have fun watching!

After several hours of watching this stuff:

I am likely going to use Valvoline Restore and Protect or Pennzoil Ultra Platinum in my car/SUV/truck.

I am likely going to keep using the Rotella T in my Savage.....or maybe the Mobil 1 or Amzoil V-Twin, or the Lucas motorcycle oil.

Title: Re: Oil Additives are not desirable!!!!!!
Post by Ruttly on 12/14/24 at 11:02:13

I thought the oil wars had ended , and negotiated a truce. Modern oils are very purpose specific and because of that additives are not needed and could be harmful to the performance of the oil. My newer vehicles get Mobil 1 , DoubleUgly gets a diesel rated 15/40 for it 55 Y Block. They all oil happy.

Title: Re: Oil Additives are not desirable!!!!!!
Post by ThumperPaul on 12/14/24 at 16:07:33

Ruttly - DoubleUgly. LOL.

Dave - Good information. I don't see any links though. Go Valvoline! I've always been a Valvoline guy for my cars. And I was paying way too much for Valvoline motorcycle specific oil before y'all helped me see the light with Shell Rotella T.

Yay! - no oil additives. I've never used them and now you've shared proof why it's not necessary. Thanks!

Title: Re: Oil Additives are not desirable!!!!!!
Post by ohiomoto on 12/14/24 at 16:11:50

Use http instead of https to see the videos.

Title: Re: Oil Additives are not desirable!!!!!!
Post by ThumperPaul on 12/14/24 at 16:53:21

2126272123213A214E0 wrote:

Use http instead of https to see the videos.

Thanks.

Title: Re: Oil Additives are not desirable!!!!!!
Post by Dave on 12/15/24 at 02:48:18

112D302835203715243029450 wrote:

Dave - Good information. I don't see any links though.

If you click on the little red arrow the video will play. If you want to watch it on YouTube click on the "YouTube" wording in the small video and it will open video in YouTube.

Title: Re: Oil Additives are not desirable!!!!!!
Post by Dave on 12/15/24 at 02:56:06

I can remember the old STP commercial where they dipped the end of a screwdriver in oil and a Sumo wrestler could hold onto the upside down screwdriver by holding the blade between his fingers - they then dipped the screwdriver into STP and the screwdriver would slip out. This was supposed to be evidence that STP made your oil more slippery.

Your engine doesn't function the same as your fingers - so having a thicker oil that prevents your fingers from grabbing a screwdriver tip is not accurate evidence that your engine will have less wear or better performance with a "thickener".

I am about half way through a video on thick vs. thin oil.....don't know what the outcome will be yet.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXMGAnyYoog[/media]

Title: Re: Oil Additives are not desirable!!!!!!
Post by JOG on 12/15/24 at 03:06:27

oil.....don't know what the outcome will be yet..

Wheww! I was afraid you were about to drop a

spOILer alert on us.

Title: Re: Oil Additives are not desirable!!!!!!
Post by Dave on 12/15/24 at 03:53:17

Thick vs. thin oil.

I am not sure how this long 38 minute video applies to our daily driver, the engine had aluminum rods, a full flow filter without a bypass, and it was a big V8 that made 640 HP! Also I don't know what weight oil the engine was set up to run......piston/bearing clearances are different for old school and modern engines.

What this video did show was that prefilling your oil filter makes a small change in the amount of time it takes to get stable oil pressure but it results in a bit change in wear for thinner oils (at least in this big V8 that may have larger clearances than the engine in your grocery getter).

If you did not "prefill" your oil filter the amount of time it took to get stable oil pressure with a new filter was around 7 seconds - if you prefilled the filter it was around 6 seconds. However - later on they discovered that when you didn't prefill there was a period of time where the system was not being lubricated properly as the air from the empty filter moved through the engine parts....and the amount of wear with the thinner oil was significantly more than what occurred with the thicker oil that could hold onto the parts better.

This does prove that it is better to prefill your oil filter when possible. You can't prefill the oil filter on engines that have a filter that attaches to the block sideways - but if your engine has a filter that allows you to fill it with oil as you install it.....it is best to do so.

I don't believe the video is proof that you should use a thicker oil - as the testing did not investigate what happens when you are starting an engine in a real world environment when a "cold" engine can be started in winter conditions. I am a firm believer that you should run a viscosity that is provided by your owners manual......don't install 15W-40 oil in an engine that is supposed to use 0W-20!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLBgIve1YzY
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLBgIve1YzY[/media]

Title: Re: Oil Additives are not desirable!!!!!!
Post by ohiomoto on 12/15/24 at 05:22:10

5B606D7A6B677C7A6169647B080 wrote:

[quote author=112D302835203715243029450 link=1734180797/0#6 date=1734221253]

Dave - Good information. I don't see any links though.

--------------

If you click on the little red arrow the video will play. If you want to watch it on YouTube click on the "YouTube" wording in the small video and it will open video in YouTube.
[/quote]--------------

HTTP videos and links are blocked by some browsers. You need to use HTTP or adjust the permissions for this site in your browser to allow "insecure content". That's why Paul couldn't see the videos.

Title: Re: Oil Additives are not desirable!!!!!!
Post by ThumperPaul on 12/15/24 at 05:48:21

Thanks Dave. The YouTube links are visible on my phone, but I must have my laptop locked down tight. I can check out the videos now.

I had a part time job at Pacer Lubricants while in college. We blended various retail brands and flavors. As you noted, the base oil was exactly the same regardless of what we were whipping up. My job as a lab tech assistant was to run various tests to make sure the concoction had all the right stuff in the right amount. This was the early ‘80s and Royal Purple was touted as the greatest thing since sliced bread. We didn’t test the actual performance; just the formulation.

One test we did do on everything was a flash test. Put a little oil in like a small cast iron skillet and start cooking. I can’t remember the temperatures when stuff caught fire, but Royal Purple was significantly higher (is this stuff ever gunna go poof?)

It’s crazy how engines and oil weight has changed. I remember Castrol marketing the heck out of 20w/50 oil aimed at small Japanese engines/cars. My brother’s Honda Civic drank 1 quart every 2-3 weeks. Never really smoked or had issues (just thirsty) and he drove the heck out of that car while in college.

I checked out the Valvoline last night. Sounds like good stuff. Found a seller on eBay with a 3-pack of 5 quart jugs for $82 with free shipping.

Title: Re: Oil Additives are not desirable!!!!!!
Post by JOG on 12/15/24 at 08:56:55

This does prove that it is better to prefill your oil filter when possible. You can't prefill the oil filter on engines that have a filter that attaches to the block sideways - but if your engine has a filter that allows you to fill it with oil as you install it.....it is best to do so.

Even the horizontal filters can be partially loaded. The media holds quite a bit and if they are loaded up and left standing the level drops as the oil soaks in and through.
I haven't done any kinda Deep Dive on it, and some YouTube mechanics are vocally against prefilling because they, actually, I've only seen one, He says it's too easy to allow harmful contamination into the filter that will be pumped into the engine. I'm not in agreement. Pay attention and Don't is my thinking.

Engines that use the low viscosity oils don't like the 15-40 that the old school Suzuki design works well with have lifters and, as I understand it, the clearances are so small that the lifters can't operate right. Anyone who has more on that is invited to straighten me out.

Title: Re: Oil Additives are not desirable!!!!!!
Post by blod on 12/15/24 at 09:47:31

I have used Rotella T 15/40 diesel oil in my bikes for as long as I can remember. I buy it in 5 gallon plastic buckets. Last time I went to buy some there was none in the store, but they did have what appeared to be a Castrol equivalent.. "Castrol 15w40 CRB Multi " I bought a bucket.

A few days later I changed the oil on my CJ750 and topped up my 2001 Dodge Ram 2500. I checked the oil on the CJ after a couple of rides and was surprised to discover the level was spot on, ( it had always burnt a lot of oil ) I put it down to the possibility that I had overfilled it when I changed it. 2 weeks and 1000 KMS later the oil level was still perfect. It was the new Castrol oil that had cured my 6 year old problem.

I put half a liter in my previously oil burning Dodge, and it stayed spot on for the next 3000 kms when I changed the oil again.

http://https://i.imgur.com/rV88v0mh.jpg

PS, I'm always a bit leery about changing something that I have been using for a long time, but I am glad I did. If you have doubts ( and I would not blame you ) and have ao oil burning engine give this oil a try, no need to buy a five gallon bucket, just add a little to your regular oil and I bet you would notice an improvement.

Title: Re: Oil Additives are not desirable!!!!!!
Post by ThumperPaul on 12/16/24 at 07:56:26

414F4C47230 wrote:

Title: Re: Oil Additives are not desirable!!!!!!
Post by blod on 12/16/24 at 10:27:20

What’s a CJ750? Chang Jiang CJ750? Looking at the specs for the Castrol CRB Multi, it doesn’t list JASO MA/MA2, so I wouldn’t put it in a wet clutch motorcycle. I know nothing about a CJ750.

At least Shell Rotella T4 and T6 have the “meets of exceeds” JASO MA/MA2 language on the container (although they technically don’t have the actual JASO approval). I trust that Shell did their homework and just decided not to spend the time and money getting the actual approval.

Yes a CJ 750 is a Chang Jiang 750. It's a copy of a BMW R71, made on the original tooling supplied by the Russians.

http://https://i.imgur.com/9q6jSJNh.jpg

All I know about oil is knowledge gained from my experiences. I just take note what works, even if I don't know why. :)

Title: Re: Oil Additives are not desirable!!!!!!
Post by ThumperPaul on 12/16/24 at 12:33:07

Cool.

Well….if the clutch starts slipping, you can add that to your experiences. Maybe the Castrol will be okay, but without the JASO MA/MA2 language or approval, it won’t be going in any of my wet clutch bikes.