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Message started by JOG on 12/03/24 at 15:36:41

Title: How long do you HaftaBe Wrong
Post by JOG on 12/03/24 at 15:36:41

Before you start asking yourself why you don't Re-Think things?

http://https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgZRfneVJtMPZI7XC2v3VMbmV_1Nu2LFgA05dIZpOkAhT0kDrDwSTkj9LTKMHXhS2ZuEq-BJblFp5U4uyBAaFCZRr9X6URHSg6C1I-sRFuvvXDKYvldd7E8_p4XjyHXTZsJ88n1pWP3Ym2h6mZ1mUBAyDs4hzV3KGlp184brjJStDy0dMHI55WH4PiE1Ek/s651/Screen%20Shot%202024-11-29%20at%2011.05.03%20AM.png

Title: Re: How long do you HaftaBe Wrong
Post by Eegore on 12/03/24 at 15:57:48

About the same amount of time as people that think kids are dying at a higher rate from the vaccine. How many years of thousands of kids not being dead will there have to be?

Title: Re: How long do you HaftaBe Wrong
Post by JOG on 12/03/24 at 16:04:56

Stoppit.
You know I admitted that was incorrect. I haven't said anything about it in a long time.
And I knew you would come back with this tired old crap. You are laughably predictable.
YaKnow, other people are reading this, right?

Title: Re: How long do you HaftaBe Wrong
Post by Eegore on 12/03/24 at 16:24:05

Stoppit.
You know I admitted that was incorrect. I haven't said anything about it in a long time.

I disagree but your "long time" might be different than mine. The last time it was discussed here you brought up the "admitted" insurance claims, and you just said you watched kids die on live TV. To me, and I may be wrong, that is a defense or claimed evidence that kids died at an accelerated rate post-vaccination.

From my perspective that's like someone saying they watched hurricanes on live TV when somebody brings up evidence like you did here. Of course there gonna be bad weather, but is it measurably more outside of chance, and directly caused? When people say they see the weather damage on TV, is that really much of an argument for climate alarmism?

I'm just saying the arguments sound very familiar.

YaKnow, other people are reading this, right?

Nah its a tiny forum.

Title: Re: How long do you HaftaBe Wrong
Post by WebsterMark on 12/04/24 at 07:46:02

I’m with Jack on this one. Wasn’t any need to bring that up.

Staying on topic, I read an article this morning that said five or six times the climate change is an existential threat, and the disasters are already being shot all across the world.

I still say none of us have experienced anything negative in our personal lives related to climate change. Nothing.

Title: Re: How long do you HaftaBe Wrong
Post by Eegore on 12/04/24 at 17:32:37

I still say none of us have experienced anything negative in our personal lives related to climate change. Nothing.

I disagree. My personal life has been impacted, negatively, by changes in agriculture yields in my area due to climate change.

A fishing group that one of my chef associates works for also has had negative impact due to climate variances so their off-shore fishing window has been reduced. His "season" on the boat has shortened thus his pay from this group. He considers this a negative impact.

The CO Department of Fish and Wildlife have had to alter the hunting permits on a few species over the past 60 years to a lower amount due to animals traveling further from CDFW controlled spaces. These are migratory animals that move based on local climate. This, according to hunters, taxidermists, and butchers I know has been a negative impact.

Allergens in the Western Slope have changed due to longer green stages and pollination times of certain hibernation plants. This has increased the requirements for asthma-related and COPD treatments in the entire region. While it is a positive change for Cardiologists and Allergy specialists, of whom multiple have opened practices due to this, it is a negative impact for those humans needing the treatments.

I've had to purchase higher insulation IV carriers for field teams in central Africa and the Middle East because they can too easily run out of temp. These same insulating parameters were used since the 1950's but are not longer feasible today or they will introduce fluids to the bloodstream that will be too hot. This to me is a negative result of climate change.

There are of course plenty of positives as well.

Title: Re: How long do you HaftaBe Wrong
Post by JOG on 12/04/24 at 20:53:57

As has been true since the beginning, climate is and always has been
Changing.
The idea that we are going to halt that process by destroying the things that work and replace them with things that sound good is stupid. The cure is worse than the disease.
We've been being told since the80s about the Horrible things that were Gonna Gittus in twelve years. Well, we're on the third twelve year DeadLine.. Cataclysms R Us hasn't happened.
The banks would Not be making loans for mortgages that they believed would be underwater. Bankers are not Stewpid.

Title: Re: How long do you HaftaBe Wrong
Post by WebsterMark on 12/05/24 at 03:38:31

4C6C6E667B6C090 wrote:

Sorry, but I don’t believe any of that has anything at all whatsoever to do with human caused influence on a fraction of a degree of temperature difference over 30 or 40 years. I don’t believe that.

I've had to purchase higher insulation IV carriers for field teams in central Africa and the Middle East because they can too easily run out of temp.

So if I’m understanding you correctly, very minor change in average temperature over the course of the year, forced you to increase insulation on IV carriers? Is that correct?

Because my question is, in Africa the average temperature is vastly different depending on your proximity to the equator. So in those locations closer to the equator, say 30 years ago, were they forced to use IV carriers with higher insulation?

My point is, I’m here in St. Louis Missouri, a couple hundred miles south of me is Memphis, TN. Because Memphis is further south, the average temperature is slightly higher. Are you telling me that in St. Louis, if the average temperature shifts to the that of Memphis due to human caused climate change, that I’m going to have to make significant changes (any changes) to the products I use, my overall lifestyle, or my health is going to be negatively impacted? I don’t believe that for one second.

Title: Re: How long do you HaftaBe Wrong
Post by thumperclone on 12/05/24 at 05:14:50

where I live our agricultural growing zone has changed from 6 to 7
within the last ten years

Title: Re: How long do you HaftaBe Wrong
Post by Eegore on 12/05/24 at 05:17:17

Sorry, but I don’t believe any of that has anything at all whatsoever to do with human caused influence on a fraction of a degree of temperature difference over 30 or 40 years. I don’t believe that.

I didn't say it was human caused influence. I was referencing what you said:

"I still say none of us have experienced anything negative in our personal lives related to climate change. Nothing."

So if I’m understanding you correctly, very minor change in average temperature over the course of the year, forced you to increase insulation on IV carriers? Is that correct?

No, I stated the past 70 years, acceptable parameters since the 1950's.

Because my question is, in Africa the average temperature is vastly different depending on your proximity to the equator. So in those locations closer to the equator, say 30 years ago, were they forced to use IV carriers with higher insulation?

No. They required less insulation than they do today.

My point is, I’m here in St. Louis Missouri, a couple hundred miles south of me is Memphis, TN. Because Memphis is further south, the average temperature is slightly higher. Are you telling me that in St. Louis, if the average temperature shifts to the that of Memphis due to human caused climate change, that I’m going to have to make significant changes (any changes) to the products I use, my overall lifestyle, or my health is going to be negatively impacted? I don’t believe that for one second.

I think if the average human was impacted by small climate change then average humans wouldn't largely ignore it. Those who work/live/engage in areas where small averages in temperature do create substantial change (like wildlife or agriculture for instance) will notice. The average human buying vegetables is not impacted by local weather anywhere near as much as the farmer who grows them.

Title: Re: How long do you HaftaBe Wrong
Post by MnSpring on 12/05/24 at 06:44:57

The post of Gaby Hinsliff, and many other references of (global warming) is the cause/result, of humans, and their actions.
Rather than the ups and downs of the evolution of this space ship.

0B2B29213C2B4E0 wrote:

" I didn't say it was human caused influence. ..."

No you didn't,
you implied.

The real disturbing part, is the total lack of correct information.
Which is A FACT, that this planet is still coming out of it's last Ice Age.

Title: Re: How long do you HaftaBe Wrong
Post by Eegore on 12/05/24 at 07:06:47

No you didn't,
you implied.

You inferred. I used Webstermark's exact quote, not an implication, of what maybe he might mean, as such I would expect the same, like I always have.

Title: Re: How long do you HaftaBe Wrong
Post by MnSpring on 12/05/24 at 07:11:07

6A4A48405D4A2F0 wrote:

"... of what maybe he might mean ..."

A-Yep !

You do you so well !

Title: Re: How long do you HaftaBe Wrong
Post by Eegore on 12/05/24 at 07:17:26

A-Yep !

You do you so well !

I do me better than anyone else. Was my quote of Webstermark's incorrect or altered in any way?

Have I ever once said man made climate change is an issue?

Title: Re: How long do you HaftaBe Wrong
Post by WebsterMark on 12/05/24 at 07:43:40

Because my question is, in Africa the average temperature is vastly different depending on your proximity to the equator. So in those locations closer to the equator, say 30 years ago, were they forced to use IV carriers with higher insulation?

No. They required less insulation than they do today.

I was thinking you needed more insulation to keep them cooler against the heat from the outside.

Let’s get on the same page here. When you say IV carriers, I assume you’re talking about some device or package the transports IVs which needs to be kept at a certain temperature range so the fluid inside them maintains its performance criteria. Correct?

To clarify, your position is the insulation protecting the device or package used to transport Intravenous fluids needed to be upgraded to protect the fluids from the effects caused by higher average annual temperatures which has been proven to be the result of anthropogenic climate change.

Title: Re: How long do you HaftaBe Wrong
Post by Eegore on 12/05/24 at 07:56:28

I was thinking you needed more insulation to keep them cooler against the heat from the outside.

I do. I read your question as asking if they needed more insulation 30 years ago. No. They need more insulation today.

To clarify, your position is the insulation protecting the device or package used to transport Intravenous fluids needed to be upgraded to protect the fluids from the effects caused by higher average annual temperatures which has been proven to be the result of anthropogenic climate change.

No. I was addressing your statement using only the words you used at the time: "I still say none of us have experienced anything negative in our personal lives related to climate change. Nothing."

If you add in, later, "proven to be the result of anthropogenic climate change." then I would say that is an entirely different statement.

There is no way to "prove" anthropogenic climate change beyond very short term and known direct processes - like cloud seeding or massive land alterations like dams for instance.

Title: Re: How long do you HaftaBe Wrong
Post by WebsterMark on 12/05/24 at 08:01:33

But you were forced to change the insulation in your IV carriers due to an increase in the average annual temperature for that area of Africa. That’s a correct statement?

Title: Re: How long do you HaftaBe Wrong
Post by Eegore on 12/05/24 at 08:03:14

But you were forced to change the insulation in your IV carriers due to an increase in the average annual temperature for that area of Africa. That’s a correct statement?

Yes. For decades the safe parameters were fine, and now within the past decade those parameters have changed. Due to average climate changes. The average climate has changed, so the safe handling guidelines have changed.

Title: Re: How long do you HaftaBe Wrong
Post by WebsterMark on 12/05/24 at 08:43:17

I questioned that.

The products my company manufactures for example, have a maximum operating temperature associated with them, which is considerably higher than the expected standard operating temperature.

Is it your testimony that the standard operating temperature range for that insulation was within a degree or two of its maximum operating temperature and in the past few years you’ve discovered, due to climate change, the average temperature of the environment is now higher than the upper limit the standard operating temperature of the insulation?

Title: Re: How long do you HaftaBe Wrong
Post by Eegore on 12/05/24 at 13:39:03

Yes, the standard SCI/IV maximum temp for field carry is 22C.

The insulation standard was more than enough for decades, one could literally use a WWII padded carry bag and not have issues. That same insulation standard would be too low today. I have to buy the next higher level insulation standard because the ambient average temperature exceeds the acceptable levels of the older purchased insulation standards.

The average ambient temperature of the local climate today is higher than the average ambient temperature 3 years ago. We can not purchase decade old standards as they are too "thin" so to speak and will not provide enough insulation, on average. The prior insulation standard that was acceptable consistently, used in field, and has purchasing records going back to the mid 1980's is no longer acceptable in today's average ambient temperature.

We can no longer purchase the same insulation standard that our purchasing records would indicate was acceptable from oct 1986 to Oct 2021 as those insulation standards would not consistently maintain a safe temperature in the local climate. That average temperature being 22C or lower, which was an average ambient temperature 3 years ago and prior decades, or at least to Oct 1986, recorded by field teams establishing safe-carry reports for DOKs.

Today that average ambient temperature documented by field teams establishing safe-carry reports for DOKs indicate, for the past 3 years, that the average ambient temperature has taken their DOKs outside their safe limit of 22c. While still usable, they would be considered outside of safe specifications.

DOKs since 2001 have been carried in the same locations with identical strapping and locking methods and maintenance procedures. They have been in the same vehicles, with the same environmental exposure times for the past 7 years. We have no reasonable expectation that the placement of DOKs has been altered within the past 3 years so much as to indicate their physical locations have created a consistent unsafe temperature. The testing equipment including the thermal evaluation modules have their up to date tolerance/maintenance records. Also documentation of the ambient temperature, including humidity, has increased, specifically within the past 6 years. The assessed primary contributor to physical temperature is the ambient temperature. Given we have years of average ambient temperature documentation, that has increased 2.6434 degrees in the past 6 years, and also in that time have had an increase in out of spec IV units in DOKs the assessment has concluded that average ambient temperature is increasing the physical temperature.

Thus the most immediate and reliable mitigation is to place IV carriers into the next higher standard of insulation.

Another example is my thermometer at home has a consistently higher temperature reading each year. If I place chocolate on a plate on my porch it will melt earlier in the year, on average, and remain melted longer on average than it did 10 years ago.

Title: Re: How long do you HaftaBe Wrong
Post by WebsterMark on 12/06/24 at 10:43:25

The average ambient temperature of the local climate today is higher than the average ambient temperature 3 years ago. We can not purchase decade old standards as they are too "thin" so to speak and will not provide enough insulation, on average. The prior insulation standard that was acceptable consistently, used in field, and has purchasing records going back to the mid 1980's is no longer acceptable in today's average ambient temperature.

If it’s true that a very small increase in temperature of 2.6434 degrees is exceeding the tolerance for the insulation, then I would say the original installation specifications were at the 99 percentile of average temperature which seems unlikely.

And knowing you (and your mathematical point of view regarding language) you will say that was exactly your original point but I would say, (maybe best described as from a practical point of view) I stand by my position, that none of us have experienced anything in our personal life has been negatively affected by climate change.

Title: Re: How long do you HaftaBe Wrong
Post by Eegore on 12/06/24 at 10:56:11

If it’s true that a very small increase in temperature of 2.6434 degrees is exceeding the tolerance for the insulation, then I would say the original installation specifications were at the 99 percentile of average temperature which seems unlikely.

Considering it wasn't an issue for decades it appears nobody noticed. Once it started happening periodically it was looked into and decided to upgrade the insulation standard.

And knowing you (and your mathematical point of view regarding language) you will say that was exactly your original point but I would say, (maybe best described as from a practical point of view) I stand by my position, that none of us have experienced anything in our personal life has been negatively affected by climate change.

So to me that means that either the climate has not changed anywhere on the planet, or that no human has ever been impacted negatively by bad weather. I find this very hard to believe since there has been changes in the average climate all over the planet. The planet changes.

Also I have personally been impacted, negatively, by the change in climate over time. We can go back to the multi-year, and still ongoing, agricultural yield assessments East of my property. There is not one human out here that thinks the climate is the same as it was 30 years ago, nor do they think they can get the identical yields. FFA groups have been travelling here for years now to do their own assessments, not one has said the average climate is the same, or that yields have not changed.

I find it impossible to think farmers can only be neutrally or positively impacted by climate variances over time.

The CO Parks and Wildlife maintains a tremendously large climate history ledger. Nobody there thinks there has not been a change in CO climate, they continually have to monitor wildlife numbers almost exclusively due to climate variances over time to mitigate over or under hunting/fishing etc. If a human that hunts can't get a tag because the overall number of approved animal to be hunted has down-trended for 40 years making the lottery change lower, that to me is a negative impact.

Title: Re: How long do you HaftaBe Wrong
Post by WebsterMark on 12/06/24 at 12:57:04

I never said that climate didn’t change. Of course, it changes. I’ll go back to my example that a fraction of a second on the earths geological clock. 15000 years, there were no Great Lakes.

My point is in our personal lives, our day-to-day experience, whatever increase the temperature has been, it doesn’t negatively affect us.

And there’s no way that a slight temperature increase is directly responsible for fewer tags handed out to hunters. I read this nonsense all the time that climate change contributes to some of the mass poverty we see, that’s nonsense.

I do not believe that the earths ecosystem is so fragile, a tiny fraction of a change in temperature has catastrophic consequence. I don’t believe that.