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General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
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Message started by ThumperLife on 08/07/24 at 07:11:59

Title: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by ThumperLife on 08/07/24 at 07:11:59

Hey everybody. Hoping you guys can help me.

I've had an '07 s40 for a couple of years and it's been a dream. I've rejetted it several times based on whatever muffler i've had and done a number of other things to improve the way it rides, etc. So I'm no stranger to the bike.

BUT...

I recently picked up a '97 savage for a few hundred bucks and have messed with it and messed with it and I just can't get the thing to run right. I have had the head cover off and have checked the cam timing, tuned the valves to tolerances I have found on the forum - and the only reason I have been suspicious of the timing is because I've gone every which way with the carb...

No matter what I do, the bike wants to run rich (I think) because it blows black soot out the muffler. But when I lean out the carb it doesn't hardly want to run at all - it still blows soot but won't hardly take the throttle AND THEN what is weird is that if I pull the choke it comes to life! I have checked the float height and matched my S40. I started this journey without an airbox at all, so it's getting air. I have since gotten an airbox but it hasn't changed the phenomenon. I've checked the header and muffler for blockage, all good.

The soot is it's worst at about 1/8 throttle - that's where it bogs, but beyond that it will open up. For illustration, if i jet it lean, it will darn near die at 1/8 throttle, and blow black soot... If i jet it rich, it will still blow black soot, but power thru... THEN if i pull the choke, it revs up and is almost normal.

I have not been using a petcock as I have had the tank off the bike and have simply been using a long fuel line. (maybe the problem?)

I am on my 3rd spark plug as they soot over pretty quick.

The only thing that I did notice when I had the air box off, is that the vacuum slide in the carb seemed to rapidly pulsate up and down, which i've read can be normal for a vacuum slide that doesn't get the air velocity that it does from and air box. But since adding the box, the behavior hasn't changed.

It is beyond my knowledge at this point. Clearly the engine is not doing a complete burn of the fuel that it is getting... but based on the extremes i've gone to, i don't think it is exactly fuel, air, or spark related...

To me, it would seem like it has to be fault somewhere in the ignition timing, but i have no idea how to troubleshoot that...

Help!

Title: Re: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by Graybeard on 08/07/24 at 08:58:05

Swap out the carbs.

Title: Re: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by Dave on 08/07/24 at 13:57:49

5E6B78607B7C786B7D190 wrote:

Swap out the carbs.

Yep....that could tell you something. Put the 07 carb on the 97 and see what happens.

Title: Re: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by ThumperLife on 08/07/24 at 16:17:41

That was my first thought... I've been hesitant cuz my luck i'll swap the carbs only to get the same result. Ha!

Also gonna put my good tank with my good petcock on there... may try that first, then swap carbs.

Will let ya'll know soon.

Title: Re: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by ThumperLife on 08/07/24 at 18:20:43

Well as luck would have it... i threw on my known good carb, along with my tank and good petcock, and I can tell the '97 Savage is running like it should. No soot - no hesitation.

But I cleaned the 97's carb?? Is there a solution I should just dip the thing into for a few days?? There's gotta be an airway somewhere inside that is clogged...

I could just upgrade the carb, but i'd rather get the original carb working right.. at least for now.

What do ya'll dip your carbs in??

Title: Re: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by Graybeard on 08/08/24 at 03:10:20

You added variables. Changed three things, tank,petcock,carb.
If you had Only put a known good carb on it, then you could Know all the results were from the carb. How do you Know the petcock isn't a part of or the whole problem?
Sounds like you don't trust the petcock. Isolate it. Only change one thing at a time. Stick the petcock/tank back on it with the good carb. If it sux, you learned something.

Title: Re: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by LANCER on 08/08/24 at 04:14:02

For your carb with the issues, did you ever disassemble and clear all of the tiny passageways in the carb body with a carb tool ? If not, you need to. A carb will not function properly unless they are clear. Use a carb tool (or a gas welding jet cleaner tool-same type of tool), then carb cleaner aerosol, then compressed air.

Title: Re: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by ThumperLife on 08/08/24 at 05:52:16

So in my initial post i admitted that for the '97 i have not been using the tank or the petcock at all... i have simply had a long fuel line attached, which i assume would be the same as running a petcock on "prime".

I put the S40 tank on the '97 so that I could run the bike for a while to confirm that it really does run better with the good carb once it's warmed up.

The passageways in the '97's carb i am assuming are not fully cleared. I know the jets are good because they are new...

I am going to try soaking the carb body again and find some carb tools that Lancer mentioned and try that carb again.

Title: Re: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by ThumperLife on 08/09/24 at 08:22:44

Well... after confirming with the '07 carb that the '97 bike runs great and that the '97 carb has been my issue, I have soaked that carb body, confirmed that all passageways are clear, fitted it with all new jets based on how the '07 is jetted, put the '97 carb back on the '97...

and it still runs horrible. spits soot. barely idles... it's actually worse than it was the first time i cleaned it.

literally with the carbs side by side, the only thing i noticed is that the vacuum slide's spring is about 30% taller for the '97, but i don't know what that would have to do with the way it idles.

I guess the '97 carb is junk and I'll get a performance carb.

Unbelievable.

Title: Re: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by Graybeard on 08/09/24 at 09:53:46

Have you inspected the diaphragm for tiny holes?
How did you prove all of the passage ways are open?
If you have a spring that is different, try swapping them. See what happens.
Take the jets out of the good carb. Put them in the other one.
Pay close attention to the washer under the jet.
There are a few absolute carb gurus in here. I'm not one of them, but troubleshooting is something I am decent at.
IMO, you're not quite finished trying to figure it out before you toss it and drop Bux..

Title: Re: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by ThumperLife on 08/09/24 at 14:19:09

Screw it. Tired of looking at that carb at this point.

I've seen folks here have had success with the PWK38, which i've actually had my hands on before and I like those... I suspect that'll bring a little muscle out of the bike anyway.

I do need somebody's help finding the right manifold tho... anybody got a part number for a rubber manifold that will marry the savage and the PWK38?

Title: Re: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by Graybeard on 08/09/24 at 15:06:56

If I was still actively wrenching I'd offer to pay the freight and give ya twenty bucks..

Title: Re: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by ThumperPaul on 08/10/24 at 05:13:03

003C2139243126183D3231540 wrote:

ThumperLife - Below a somewhat recent thread from when I installed the Keihin PWK38. Maybe it can give you some ideas and help with jetting.

I think I reference the manifold I used (it’s a Mikuni but it fits like a glove on the Keihin PWK38). I’ll reread my own post and if I didn’t note the manifold, I can find a link to it from when I bought it. For these cheap knockoff carbs, I do buy and use cheap knockoff jets.

To cut to the chase and without reading my thread, I’d suggest starting with:

Pilot Jet: #32 or #35 (#32 is a little cleaner and more stable idle once dialed-in in my opinion - try 1.5 turns out on the mix screw). Note: The mix screw is opposite the stock CV carb - turning it clockwise is richer).

Main Jet: Start with a #125. See my thread on this one. It’s been a bit more of a challenge for me.

Needle clip - try the middle groove first. I ended up moving to the 2nd from the top (leaner). This one is also tricky and your needle may be different than mine (life is like a box of chocolates with these carbs - you never know what you’re going to get).

You’ll have to decide if you want to use the stock air box or do some other air intake. You’ll see I tried both and I’ve settled in with a UNI pod filter connected directly to the carb.

You’ll also have to come up with a throttle cable mod or maybe Lancer can hook you up with a cable that he sells with the Mikuni VM36 slide carb kit. It’ll work on the PWK38 too.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1714330191

Title: Re: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by ThumperLife on 08/10/24 at 05:30:31

Hey ThumperPaul, i had already read your whole post! I have jotted down the jet sizes you settled on and i may already have the jets, just need to buy the carb.

Yes please let me know if you find a link to the manifold you used.

Overall, how would you say that PWK works on the bike compared to the stock carb?

Title: Re: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by ThumperPaul on 08/10/24 at 05:55:40

Here’s the link to the manifold. You might find it a little cheaper, but I’ve had good luck with Niche (and they say it’s Mikuni Brand and I believe it). Just a little tidbit, I used stainless steel M6 flange bolts to secure it (I hate the stripable stock screws). I think they are 16mm or 20mm. Take the stock screws to Ace or any hardware store and match ‘em up.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/173163117968?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=ElR4SZmCQra&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=E09oxHAHSqa&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Title: Re: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by ThumperPaul on 08/10/24 at 06:05:20

The main difference with the PWK38 slide carb is throttle response. It’s immediate with no lag waiting for vacuum to suck up the CV slide. Coming from a CV carb, you have to pay some attention to managing your right hand. :o I love it.

Honestly, with a stock motor, there isn’t a huge horsepower or torque gain. You’ll get a little more top end if you’re pushing the stock 6800rpm redline of the bike.

The throttle response kinda creates an illusion of more power. There’s some gain, but don’t expect turbocharged gains.

Title: Re: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by ThumperLife on 08/10/24 at 07:38:08

That's awesome. This '97 I don't mind taking some liberties with because I have the '07 like I want it... so it's fun to have another bike that I can kinda play with.

BTW, If anyone wants to keep up with this project, I have a youtube channel that I maintain just for fun: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCa9fabTMDOSsPVlKdz5dfdQ

LANCER if you're seeing this, how much for a throttle cable for the pwk?

Title: Re: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by ThumperPaul on 08/10/24 at 09:45:38

Looks like you have 10 posts now. I think you can private message Lancer now. Probably need to give him a poke.

I’ll check out your YouTube page.

Yep, have one that’s ready to go and a project on the side! I know that pattern! I’ve settled in with my Honda Shadow Spirit 750 as my regular ride and I keep coming back to the S40 to tinker with and learn. I keep saying to myself I’m going to keep one of these S40s, but I keep selling them and buy another cheap one to bring back to life. It’s an affliction especially with such a great forum and people to help me out!

Title: Re: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by DragBikeMike on 08/10/24 at 11:50:09

ThumperLife, would you be willing to send me your stock carb so I can evaluate it and do a report? I will reimburse you for USPS flat rate postage and assure you that I will return the carb to you at least as good as it is now. Lots of folks on the forum struggle with the stock carb and I think your current problem child would be a good case study. If you have reservations about my trustworthiness, I’m sure there are plenty of forum members who can attest to my honesty. Dave, Lancer, Fast650, Ruttly, etc.

It’s imperative that you send the carb exactly as it is now. That way I have a fighting chance of identifying exactly what your current problem is.

Title: Re: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by Dave on 08/10/24 at 14:02:47

5F59562A282F2B1B0 wrote:

Sounds like a great offer to me! DragBikeMike is ultra reliable and ultra qualified!!!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by ThumperPaul on 08/10/24 at 16:34:43

SEND IT TO MIKE!! WHAT A DEAL!!! FREE SHIPPING TOO!!

And I want to know what's going on with that carb myself! Mike WILL figure it out!

Title: Re: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by ThumperLife on 08/10/24 at 18:07:02

DragBikeMike, I'd be more than happy to send you this carb. You'd be doing me a solid so I'll pay shipping! Shoot me a message with your shipping info and I'll send it your way Monday morning!

Even tho I've always wanted to do the PWK upgrade, I'm with the rest of the guys - I'd like to know just why this carb doesn't hardly work at all.

Title: Re: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by ThumperPaul on 08/11/24 at 05:45:54

I’m jealous of your carb! A free all inclusive trip to Hawaii with unlimited spa days! 4-5 days in the hot tub works wonders! (Ok, you’re paying the shipping now. I’m still jealous!)

With everything you’ve done and replaced, I’m gunna go on record and guess a clogged or mis-sized air bleed. Or the TEV is behaving hyperactive. I’ll probably be wrong.

Title: Re: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by DragBikeMike on 08/11/24 at 09:07:28

ThumperLife, I sent you a PM yesterday with contact info. Looking forward to "Malama your Carb".

Title: Re: No Idea! Rich or Lean?!
Post by DragBikeMike on 08/17/24 at 15:08:59

???? :-?