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General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Starter Clutch Idle Gear
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Message started by ThumperPaul on 07/27/24 at 12:54:56

Title: Starter Clutch Idle Gear
Post by ThumperPaul on 07/27/24 at 12:54:56

Item in Question: The #1 starter idle gear (the one that gets the washers) closer to the starter clutch set.

It has a circlip on the outside. I was able to get it off with snap ring plyers, but it was jammed and got a bit mangled upon removal. Can someone confirm that it's a 15mm circlip?

On the inside of the shaft is what appears to be another circlip, but it snapped and is in 2 pieces now. Can someone confirm if that's really a circlip or is it just a some kind of ring? If it's a circlip, the loops where the snap ring plyers would grab is gone (probably stuck to the magnetized rotor somewhere). What size is it?

Looking at the parts diagram, these parts aren't sold separately apparently. It's sold a single unit.

Also, why are there 3 internal toothed locking washers stacked in there that are larger diameter than the splines on the gear? (or do I have some kind of redneck engineering on this thing)?

Thanks.

Title: Re: Starter Clutch Idle Gear
Post by youzguyz on 07/27/24 at 13:33:33

Don't know the answer to your questions... but here is a nice picture of the part in question. Maybe that will help.

Title: Re: Starter Clutch Idle Gear
Post by verslagen1 on 07/27/24 at 13:38:35

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1386968592

Title: Re: Starter Clutch Idle Gear
Post by ThumperPaul on 07/27/24 at 17:00:27

Thanks Verslagen and Youzguyz!

Great pic and great thread about the little sucker. Those are definity the parts.

I have to re-read about this "keeper" that goes on the inside towards the engine case (it's weird). Dave figured out a way to fabricate something. Maybe mine isn't broken if its a 2 piece "keeper". Not familiar with this....how do 2 semi circles stay in there?

Title: Re: Starter Clutch Idle Gear
Post by ThumperPaul on 07/27/24 at 18:02:42

It seems like its one of these things. Dave said 2-piece though. I need to take a really good look at it tomorrow. Never seen such a thing. Weird.

https://www.mcmaster.com/products/circlip-snap-rings/single-turn-spiral-external-retaining-rings/

Title: Re: Starter Clutch Idle Gear
Post by ThumperPaul on 07/28/24 at 06:41:46

I wish Suzuki would have made this upgraded anti-backlash gear more complicated and challenging! Now I see why they only sell it as a complete assembled unit, and you DON’T ever want to take it apart. I’m beginning to see what those that have gone before me are talking about! Good grief!

Why did I take it apart…. Well, as someone else noted, to remove it as a complete unit, it doesn’t seem like you can get it out because it bumps into the alternator rotor. Somebody said you can find a recessed spot on the alternator rotor where it can come out. Not mine, no recess. I looked for about 30 minutes to see if there was a place that it could clear the alternator rotor and come out. Nope! So what does a novice hacker do…? Hey, I’ve got an idea! Let’s pop the little circlip out and give everything a good wiggle and pull it out! Yeah! That’s it!! Brilliant!!! Well, it worked….but here I am looking at 17 pieces to try to put back together. In 20/20 hindsight, the darn thing probably can come out without disassembling or pulling the alternator rotor. That last 1mm of the shaft likes to get hung up in the engine case. Should have given it some more lube and kept wiggling and yanking. But live and learn!

Dave, if you are reading…. In the photo about to follow this post…. Is this the “2 piece keeper” you were referring to? Is this an intact part? I thought I snapped a single circlip.

Title: Re: Starter Clutch Idle Gear
Post by ThumperPaul on 07/28/24 at 06:43:53

And the infamous 2 piece keeper…. How the heck does this thing stay trapped in there?! Stay tuned for more F-bombing!

Title: Re: Starter Clutch Idle Gear
Post by ThumperPaul on 07/28/24 at 07:07:41

Clymer Manual just simply says, “remove it”. They conveniently forget to mention it can be a real SOB to get it to clear the alternator rotor and come out. They also conveniently omit putting in a “Caution” statement not to disassemble the darn thing!

That said, Clymer can have a sense of humor. Somewhere (page 140) they mention putting the crankcase in the oven and baking at 212°F (100°C). You’ll know it’s done if you flick a little water on it and it sizzles off… They then give a caution statement, “If you use a household oven, first check with the person who uses the oven for food preparation to avoid getting in trouble.” . No I did not just make this up. Go to page 140. and fact check me!

Wife: “What’s in the oven, Honey?”
Me: “I’m just cooking a brisket, my Love.”
Wife: “Why did you put sauce on it? Good brisket doesn’t need sauce.”
Me: “Thought I’d try something different.”
Wife: “Ok, but it smells weird to me.”
Me: “It’ll be good.” (Then I have to go buy a cooked brisket.)

Title: Re: Starter Clutch Idle Gear
Post by ThumperPaul on 07/28/24 at 07:38:34

Yup, the 2 piece keeper just recesses right in there and gets trapped against the starter gear (like a stop or “keeper”). I think I got it right…. This is crazy!

Title: Re: Starter Clutch Idle Gear
Post by ThumperPaul on 07/28/24 at 07:39:59

It’s basically a “stop” (or keeper) for the starter gear…. I think…. Freakin’ weird.

Now I see what Verslagen was talking about. Compressing the whole contraction together to get the circlip on. This is ridiculous…No wonder I kinda mangled the circlip getting it out! It’s not just sitting in the channel, it’s also pressed against by the whole sh!t, bang, and kabootle!

Title: Re: Starter Clutch Idle Gear
Post by ThumperPaul on 07/28/24 at 08:13:53

Seriously!? You’re supposed to be able to mash these 3 “wave washers” flat enough to get the circlip back in its place?!

Kudos to you Verslagen for devising a way to use sockets and clamps and vises and vise grips and whatever else you can throw at it to get the circlip back on!! You gotta be kidding me!! Like Verslagen said, stacking it back together is the easy part…

Title: Re: Starter Clutch Idle Gear
Post by ThumperPaul on 07/28/24 at 08:29:23

With only 1 wave washer stacked in there, you can kinda see the channel where the circlip is suppose to go. But noooooo…you can’t just put 1 wave washer in there….you gotta smash 3 in there!!

I really appreciate Verslagen’s creative solution. But there has to be some kind of special wishbone-shaped clamp that vises against the shaft at the other end. I can see it in my head, but I don’t know if it actually exists or has a name.

Here come the F-Bombs I was talking about earlier!

Title: Re: Starter Clutch Idle Gear
Post by ThumperPaul on 07/28/24 at 08:47:49

Got it! All fixed!!

Screw this…I’m going for a ride!

Title: Re: Starter Clutch Idle Gear
Post by Graybeard on 07/28/24 at 10:51:19

Nobody enjoys building a bear trap and then stepping in it. We have all done it. And some of us will do it again.As much as that sux, it still feels good working our way Out of it.
Helluva forum,innit?
Congratulations on your Win.
I feel better just reading about it.
In Australia you would be getting
Good on ya, mate!
All around.
We're Not in Australia, so you might get a few
Mehhh responses

Title: Re: Starter Clutch Idle Gear
Post by ThumperPaul on 07/28/24 at 12:38:08

675241594245415244200 wrote:

Lol ::) :P

It’s just gunna stay in ‘timeout’ in a plastic bag until some gremlins come and put it together in the middle of the night! F-in thing!

I have to eat a lot of my own bad cooking!

Title: Re: Starter Clutch Idle Gear
Post by ThumperPaul on 07/29/24 at 04:56:49

Republishing Verslagen’s and Och’s pics here for easy of reference for the future.

Verslagen used a vise and 3 sockets to mash it all together and install the circlip. This looks precision and safe and captures the shaft and thus captures the 2-piece keeper next to (almost under) the starter gear on the shaft.

Och manhandled it with a pair of vise grips! This somewhat crude approach is right up my hacker novice alley! The problem I see with this (and maybe Och can chime in), is that it doesn’t capture the shaft. The shaft is free to slide back and forth through the cluster-F stack of parts. The 2-piece keeper is just begging to fall out of its groove and go to never-never land on the garage floor or elsewhere. Och must have used one hand to hold the shaft in place while he used his other hand to get the circlip installed. Being somewhat challenged with stuff like this, I would need 3 hands.

I’m gunna try Verslagen’s vise/sockets method, but Och wins my heart and gets honorable mention for the vise grip method!

Title: Re: Starter Clutch Idle Gear
Post by ThumperPaul on 07/29/24 at 04:58:38

I really like Och’s vise grip method! I think we could be good friends!

Note: In the photo, the 3 gears don’t have their teeth lined up in the stack. You should be able to line them up once assembled, but I think Och had a little trouble with it. Thinking ahead, that this will happen to me, a good coat of oil on everything as you stack it back together seems in order. And line them up as close as possible before you smash the stack together.

Title: Re: Starter Clutch Idle Gear
Post by ThumperPaul on 07/31/24 at 05:02:10

Dave noted that the outside circlip retainer is 14mm.

A 9/16th is a little too big. A 1/2” is a little too small. It was worth a try getting one from my favorite local Ace Hardware. But no cigar.

I found some online that are sold as 14mm with the actual bore size ID being 13.4mm. It should fit like a dream.

Mashing the 3 spring washers that are as tough as nails is quite the challenge. My vise is an el cheapo. And Och must have really strong hands to get enough clamping force on the vise grips.

I’m going to try really hard to get all 3 spring washers in there. BUT, what would be the impact or result of only installing 2 spring washers? Obviously, the setup would be less tight, thus giving the little fiber discs and steel plates (washers) more freedom to move. But, would this really impact or drastically change the performance of the anti-backlash gear? I think of a slipping clutch, but this thing is so tightly fitted with 3 spring washers, it almost seems too tight with 3 and toning it down to just 2 spring washers could actually be an improvement. I’m obviously not an engineer…

Suzuki designed this upgraded contraption (anti-backlash gear) to replace what was a simple gear. It seems 2 spring washers instead of 3 spring washers just eases up on the design a little. Again, I’m no engineer.

Title: Re: Starter Clutch Idle Gear
Post by ThumperPaul on 08/04/24 at 10:33:23

Welp…the 13.4mm bore size is a tad too small. Apparently it’s a true 14mm.

Darn little retainer clips are confusing the way they are sold and described - external vs internal, blah, blah, blah…. Some mention bore size, some don’t…. Maybe it’s “steel” or stainless steel or something else. Just tell me how strong it is and not rust or corrode.