|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it end? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1714516670 Message started by Surviving Philly on 04/30/24 at 15:37:50 |
|
Title: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it end? Post by Surviving Philly on 04/30/24 at 15:37:50 Alright, So, DBM if you come across this thread, you may remember months ago I did a clutch replacement where the pressure plate face (where it meets the disk) was severely worn away, and the friction disks were fine. Well, 6 months later, another 160 dollar Barnett clutch pack and guess what? The clutch is totally fried, AND the pressure plate is worn again. I threw in a 40 dollar caltrec kit from Amazon, the bike acts like a rocket again ( as it should) despite the pressure plate wear. I'm currently saving up for another pressure plate. So, I'm wondering what is going on here. My inclination is to think that the Barnett kit, for whatever reason, is causing this wear. I know factually I'm completing there replacements correctly. I am in stop and go city traffic all day every day, but I can't imagine with a wet clutch this is causing such an insane degree of wear. Any ideas? I can post pictures once I get the new hub.... Didnt take any while in there today due to being on the sidewalk when it was hot as all hell here in Port Richmond. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/01/24 at 01:01:46 Is your motor souped up? I don't know what to tell you. I've got tons of miles on my clutch, and it never exhibits any wear. I've had it slip from time to time. That has always been associated with a significant power modification. I remedied those slipping issues with the hybrid 13 plate clutch, or more spring pressure. Nothing was ever worn; the system just wasn't up to the challenge. I'm just guessin, but I would be looking hard at your release mechanism. Do you have free play in the mechanism. Disconnect your cable. Place a 12" crescent wrench on your release arm and let the weight of the wrench take up all the free play. Don't push on the wrench, just let the weight of the wrench rotate the release arm and take up all the free play. Then take a picture that shows the position of your release arm in relation to the two marks on your engine case. You want the clutch cover gasket installed for this check. Take accurate measurements of all of your plates (steel & fiber). Let us know what the thickness is. The steels should be about .062", and the fibers should be about .115". Use a bathroom scale and do a load test on your springs. Rig up a contraption that will allow you to compress each spring to 26mm, then record the reading on the scale. With all that city stop & go, you might be fatiguing the springs. This shows how to check the release arm adjustment. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/01/24 at 01:02:39 This might be helpful for checking the springs. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/01/24 at 01:06:30 Seems to me the wear is the result of constant slipping/creeping. Something is preventing the plates from being squeezed sufficiently to lock up the clutch, or something is altering the friction characteristics enough to allow the assembly to slip. That could be something in your oil. What oil are you running? |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by ThumperPaul on 05/01/24 at 05:07:41 Great info Mike. What stumps me is that it’s only eating up the metal pressure plate(s) and not the fiber discs. SurvivingPhilly - is it only 1 plate, or are all of them getting chewed up? |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/01/24 at 09:11:59 DBM, souped up as in performance modifications? No, however the aluminum from the pressure plate is ground into a weird sludgy soup that can be found all around the basket. Part number 23 is what is wearing away so badly. Part 17, the hub has virtually no wear. Nor does the basket itself. I'm using shell rotella T4. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by ThumperPaul on 05/01/24 at 13:31:59 Ah. The pressure plate. Which side is it chewed up on? You have the thrust washer in there between the pressure plate and outer housing, right? |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/01/24 at 16:29:43 Yeah correct washer is there -- it's wearing away where the friction disk comes in contact with it. DBM you mentioned the springs --- so consider this for a moment. The caltrec Amazon clutch kit I just replaced the Barnett kit with, has HARDER springs than the Barnett kit, which claims it's springs are harder than the stock springs...... What the hell, right? EDIT: I was able to confirm I was using the Barnett springs along with the Barnett clutch pack. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by ThumperPaul on 05/01/24 at 16:39:07 Are you saying the soft friction disc is grinding down the metal pressure plate? That seems really strange. Pic is worth a 1000 words. I had this on the inside of the hub, but wrote it off as normal wear. I did change from a 45.5mm push rod to a 46.5mm to raise the release arm towards the top of the zone. You may need a different length push rod. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/01/24 at 17:16:54 I'll get a picture when I go back in to replace it, currently waiting on the new pressure plate. Paul just FYI, I think if I'm not mistaken the longer pushrod would actually bring the release arm closer to the lower mark. The release arm has an inverse relationship with the release cam-- when the cam is pressed on by the pushrod (i.e. clutch not pulled in, as in clutch engaged) the release arm actually wants to point DOWN toward the lower mark. Because the longest pushrod has the release cam acted on the most when the clutch is engaged, the arm will point toward the lower mark more-so than if a shorter rod was in use. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Dave on 05/02/24 at 04:12:21 I believe the wear is as shown on the attached photo. The wearing surface on the pressure plate is aluminum......also the clutch hub wearing surface is aluminum. These surfaces are soft and wear faster than the steel plates - however for most of us they never wear out. The only other person I know that wore this out was MMRanch - he had 60,000 miles on the bike when he sold it. Apparently something is allowing the fiber disc to slip along the aluminum surface to cause the wear. It is not clear if this is happening while the bike is moving - or while the bike is stopped and the clutch lever is pulled in. There may also be a reason that only the aluminum wearing surface of the pressure plate is being worn - but the aluminum wearing surface of the clutch hub is not. I suspect the spring washer in the outer plate is preventing the wear as it does not allow the aluminum surface of the plate to come into contact when the fiber disc until the clutch lever is fully released - this would lead me to believe the wear is occurring when you have the clutch lever pulled in and the bike is at rest while the engine is running and in gear. Tell us a little bit about your commute and riding style? Do you wait at a lot of traffic lights or stopped traffic and keep the bike in gear and/or have to slip the clutch a lot to move with slow traffic? Maybe we can do something weird and machine some material off your aluminum pressure plate, and provide you with enough clearance to put a steel plate in that location. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by ThumperPaul on 05/02/24 at 05:35:42 Dave - that is a photo of my hub. I’m still not grasping how the softer fiber disc can be can be chewing up Philly’s pressure plate. Seems to me the fiber disc would wear down first. Waiting for pics from Philly. Philly, I’m going to kinda bow out of the conversation and let DBM and Dave drive. But I’m 99% sure that the longer push rod shifted the resting position of the release arm (clutch disengaged) upwards in the zone. I made my pushrod change in conjunction with new Barnett clutch springs and a Sneeze clutch cam so there were some other factors in play. Something else you might want to try is to see how much clutch drag you have (I think Dave is speaking to this). Get the rear wheel off the ground, start bike, put in 1st gear, wheel spins, then pull the clutch lever and disengage the clutch, tap rear brake to stop momentum, and see how hard the rear wheel is still wanting to spin. It should spin some mildly (some drag is normal and you should be able to stop the rotation by placing your hand or foot against the rear tire), but it shouldn’t be spinning aggressively like the clutch is engaged. Clutch drag is hard to notice sometimes when on the road, under load, like sitting at a red light. You’d probably only notice it if it was really bad - the bike wants to walk with the clutch pulled/disengaged while in gear. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/02/24 at 06:50:39 Thanks for the detailed responses guys, Alright, so Dave -- yes this is exactly where the most wear is occuring, but this time, unlike last time, the clutch fiber disks are totally glazed and the steel plates are totally black/burnt. The worst of this wear is the fiber disks that mates with that pressure disk. Hopefully the attached pictures will be able to be posted. Bike is the 2013, milage is presumably around 25,000+ (speedo was removed a long time ago). Bike is used year round, daily. I'm a social worker and do a lot of visits all over the city, usually in stop and go traffic off the highways. My inclination IS to sit at red lights/ stop signs with the clutch pulled in while in gear. For longer lights I'll be in neutral with the clutch out. I do abuse this clutch -- I treat virtually every light like a drag race. But be that as it may -- I think this wear is indicative of something strange going on, just because it's so eaten away. I do let the clutch slip between atop signs, which are never really full stops in Philadelphia. Lots of time in the friction zone. I'm inclined currently to replace the pressure plate and use this caltric clutch kit from Amazon. Caltric Clutch Friction Plates Spring Gasket Kit compatible with Suzuki Savage 650 1986 1987 1988 1995-2004 https://a.co/d/133nsol Just for the sake of cost currently. Can't justify another Barnett clutch purchase until I can stop shredding them. I think you are on to something with the wear.... The hub is totally fine, I would be the first to admit my abuse of the clutch is absolutely contributing here. Just seems odd how bad it gets how quickly. Paul about the pushrod -- just because I think the thing with these rods is not very well understood, I spent a lot of time grappling with this because the last time I had this issue, I threw the shorter rod in and it solved the slipping issue despite the pressure plate wear, but then I had an issue where the spring bolts were actually hitting the inside of the release arm every time the clutch was engaged, so much so that the bolt heads were warped by interference with the arm. The difference in rod length is very minimal, but the way these clutches are set up they seem extremely sensitive to clearance issues. It sounds and looks counter intuitive that the longer rod would contribute to slippage but the way it sits in there while the clutch is engaged it effects the spring pressure and pushes the clutch ever so slightly more open than the middle or shorter rods. I've contacted Suzuki directly, in NA and tried to talk to someone in Japan and they weren't able to give me any info on the rods, why the different lengths are even offered, etc. But the one thing I do know is that the different rod lengths absolutely influence the compression of the plates while the clutch is engaged (not pulled in), and the longer one has them sitting apart further than the shorter. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by ThumperPaul on 05/02/24 at 07:04:59 I’m curiously naive…. How are you able to observe the the discs/plates separation/spread testing different push rod lengths? I’d have to have everything put back together and closed up to test anything. Sorry, I don’t mean to digress from your real dilemma. I’d have to agree that your riding style should be leading to this type of wear this quickly. Something is amiss. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/02/24 at 07:23:58 The last time I had this issue, here's roughly what happened. 1. New Barnett clutch was installed fall of 2022. Clutch replacement was successful and all was right with the world. 2. Clutch started to slip after about 6 months of use. 3. New Barnett clutch pack purchased and installed. Clutch slippage stopped, everything is fine. 4. Clutch starts to slip after two months.... Opened her back up, inspected the clutch, disks looked fine and steels weren't burnt... What is going on here? Maybe these pushrods have something to do with this... Searched the forums, found many posts stating that the longer rod can put you back in spec. Interesting. Spoke to my local mechanic, he didn't know what to think about the rods. Contacted Suzuki NA, spoke to someone who spoke to an engineer who said they didn't know either but use "whatever rod was in there to begin with (middle). Contacted Suzuki Japan and spoke to.... Some Japanese guy. Didn't know what I was talking about. 5. While reading anything and everything I could about clutch wear, decided to open it up throw the longer rod in see if it helps. It didn't. Think was slipping even worse than before, couldn't even leave the front stoop. 6. Decided to put the shorter rod in. Clutch worked fine again. Wow, what the hell? 7. After about a week, I had intense buzzing from the clutch cover. But only with the clutch engaged. When I pulled in the lever and disengaged the clutch, buzzing stopped..... Weird. Sounds bad. What is going on? 8. Opened it back up again, and noticed the spring bolts all had worn heads... the shorter rod was causing the entire pack to move forward in the basket when the clutch is fully engaged because the shorter rod compresses the clutch more than the middle or longer rod.....that's when I realized the rod length effects the compression of the springs when the clutch is fully engaged, and therefore the longer rod actually has the pack less compressed than the shorter ones, and because of this it has to be pushing the arm outside the case DOWN, with the longer one pushing it the furthest down of the three. Anyway this time fully pulling the basket and checking every component for wear. Washers were replaced, oring replaced, nut replaced... Virtually zero notches on the basket, ok cool. The hub looked fine... Then I noticed the pressure plate. Sent a picture to the forums in an earlier post from that time showing how badly worn it was. Replaced the plate but kept the disks, as they were still fine. Clutch was good again. This was like last November. Went back to the middle rod. No more slippage. That bring us here. A few short months later and the entire clutch is fried AND the new pressure plate is deeply gouged again. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by ohiomoto on 05/02/24 at 12:15:31 Wow, that plate is fried!!! And, it looks oddly dry? Given the low HP of this bike, no riding style would cause that. (If you have serious doubts about your riding style ride with someone more experienced and ask them for help or check out some YouTube videos.) I would confirm that you have the hub washers, gears, baskets, wave washers, arms/actuators, etc properly installed. I would also replace or confirm that you have the correct number of plates and that the steel plates are within spec. I have nothing against Barnett, but I've never found plates that work better than OEM. My experience with clutch replacements has been mostly with motocross bikes but all of my MX bikes produced 40-50hp the HP which is much more than the 25-30 a stock LS650 produces. I would be putting a full set or OEM springs, fiber and steel plates. I would probably replace the pressure plate as well. I would also inspect the basket for groves on the fingers. If they have wear I would file those smooth or replace the basket as well. I'm no rod length expert (insert jokes here) but your are on the right track IF you have confirmed the condition and installation of the above items, but I think you are overlooking something bigger here. LASTLY... Make sure you are using oil that is suitable for wet clutches and... This my sound like a dumb question but are you making sure your clutch cable is properly adjusted and there is play in your clutch lever? Edit: I see you are using Rotilla so oil should be good. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/02/24 at 14:14:31 Cables always adjusted with correct free play at the lever -- Ohio that disk In the picture I dried off before taking the picture, but oil is changed very frequently in this bike, always with rotella T4. I'll make sure to replace both of the thrust washers, pressure plate needs to be replaced without question but also I'll replace the wave washer and the other one. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Dave on 05/02/24 at 17:54:23 From the looks of that clutch - there is some reason that the spring pressure is not making it to the clutch and squeezing the plates together properly. It looks like a clutch that has not had the proper "slack", "free play" or whatever you want to call the clearance that allows the clutch plates to get squeezed together. A stock Savage engine should not be able to burn up clutches that are assembled and adjusted properly. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by ohiomoto on 05/02/24 at 18:46:22 What Dave said...something is wrong and it will keep eating clutches until you figure it out. My clutch slips a little before the bike is warmed up. It's done it since I bought it with 3,500 miles on it. It works perfectly fine once it's ridden a few miles and stays strong until it sits overnight or longer. I have put ~20k miles on it since I've owned the bike and its performance hasn't changed. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/02/24 at 18:53:22 So, it seems to be the general consensus is that rider input is playing a part, but that something is clearly wrong. I'm positive I'm assembling correctly, Ive done this so many times now I've gotten the full job down to an hour doing this outside on the sidewalk. My current plan is to replace the following parts according to the diagram above: 2,3,4,6,13,14,16,18,19,20,21,22,23,24. This is every component I can see that could be having any mechanical effect on this issue, excluding 17,25 (hub and basket) because they are both expensive and show no signs of wear based on my last inspection. In terms of what mechanical issues could be causing it, the culprits I'm eyeballing are numbers 4, 19. Finally regarding the springs -- I want to replace everything here OEM, but I'm considering stronger springs. DBM in the chart you listed for spring testing, it looks like one is OEM, one is BARNETT and the other one I can't make out. Which springs are those and do you run them? |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by ohiomoto on 05/02/24 at 18:54:59 I would consider new OEM springs, fiber plates, and metal plates to go along with the rest of your parts list. All of that stuff is smoked. When in doubt, only OEM parts. You want to eliminate as many variables as possible. Beyond that, I'm looking at the side cover, and the clutch-related bits installed on it... those rods. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/02/24 at 19:00:11 "8. Opened it back up again, and noticed the spring bolts all had worn heads... the shorter rod was causing the entire pack to move forward in the basket when the clutch is fully engaged because the shorter rod compresses the clutch more than the middle or longer rod.....that's when I realized the rod length effects the compression of the springs when the clutch is fully engaged, and therefore the longer rod actually has the pack less compressed than the shorter ones, and because of this it has to be pushing the arm outside the case DOWN, with the longer one pushing it the furthest down of the three." The shorter pushrod does not "cause" the clutch to move "forward" in the basket, the shorter pushrod "allows" the release plate and pressure disk to move farther right and squeeze the plates. The shorter rod does not "compress" the clutch more than the middle or longer rods, it "allows" the springs to move the release plate and pressure disk farther to the right and squeeze the plates. As your clutch wears, the pressure disk and release plate move to the right, toward the release cam. The release cam has a hard stop that is built into the clutch cover. As wear continues, all of the clearance between the pushrod and the release cam gets used up, until the mechanism is hard up. At that point, the release mechanism begins to prevent the release plate from moving any farther to the right, and the pressure exerted by the springs can no longer pinch the plates together. So, the logical solution is to install a shorter pushrod. That lets the release plate and pressure disk move a little farther to the right so that it can pinch the plates together. But......as the release plate keeps moving to the right, the bolts are getting closer to the release shaft. You can keep putting in shorter pushrods to account for the wear, but the bolts will eventually hit something. In your case, the shorter pushrod combined with the excessive wear on the pressure disk cause the release plate to move so far to the right that the bolts started to hit. It's a double whammy. As the clutch wears, the release plate and pressure disk move right. As the release plate and pressure disk move right, the installed height of the springs gets larger, and spring preload goes down. So, you are losing friction due to the wear, and you are also losing spring preload. Checking for free play at the hand lever is good. As I recall, it should be about 1/8". Checking for free play at the release lever on the clutch cover is also a good thing, but it is deceptive. Don't fall into a trap. Just because you see free play on the release lever on the clutch cover, doesn't mean that there is free play in the release mechanism inside (cam/pushrod/release plate). The release cam and release shaft are not a tight fit. There is lost motion. The shaft rotates within the cam, and over time that rotation within the cam gets worse. You can hold the release cam hard on the stop in the clutch cover and the lever arm and shaft will still rotate a bit. That can fool you into thinking that there is free play between the pushrod and the cam, when in fact the release assembly is up hard and preventing the pressure disk from squeezing the plates together. I recorded a vid and uploaded to YouTube but there is some sort of glitch. It's hung up in "processing", something to do with converting from SD to HD. If it ever gets uploaded, I will post the link. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/02/24 at 19:01:43 This shows the release cam resting on its hard stop in the clutch cover. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/02/24 at 19:02:42 See the hard stop in the clutch cover. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/02/24 at 19:25:04 In all likelihood, your accelerated wear is due to the constant stop and go riding in the City of Brotherly Love. You can mitigate the condition by pulling the thing into neutral at each stoplight, and limiting how much you slip the clutch during takeoff. But there is a chance that your problems are related to assembly and adjustment. The release cam and release shaft wear (especially the shaft). That results in excessive lost motion. That excessive lost motion will fool you into installing a longer pushrod to recenter the release arm between the marks on the engine case. I'm finding that those marks aren't the best indicator of correct release mechanism geometry. I've had good luck with installing a steel shim to tighten up the fit between the release cam and release arm. You have to be careful to make sure that the shim is captured, but it's not too difficult. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/02/24 at 19:26:38 See how the release shaft wears. I currently have a .012" thick shim installed between the flat on the shaft and the release cam. That's a lot of lost motion. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/02/24 at 19:27:54 Whoooooooooooooooaaaaah DBM am I reading this correctly? You're saying that the release cam and rod may be worn and that could be causing the clutch to be partially engaged when when I have freeplay at the lever?? I've never checked the arm for freeplay, and to be honest kind of disregarded when you mentioned that earlier but now that you outlined this I could absolutely see there being an issue. Very very interesting thank you for the write up!! |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/02/24 at 19:27:59 See how the shim must be captured. You wouldn't want that steel shim goin through a gear mesh. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/02/24 at 19:28:34 Another view from the top side. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/02/24 at 19:38:57 Dave's suggestion regarding the extra steel plate seems like a good solution for you. You would have to get your old pressure disk machined (pretty easy job assuming there is enough meat left). You would want it cut back right about .060" (1.5mm) from the original thickness. Then install a steel plate between the pressure disk and the fiber disk. That way, you would have a steel plate taking all the wear instead of the aluminum pressure disk. The material in way of the splines should provide a good reference for the original thickness. Howzabout throwin up a picture so we can see how much wear you have. There is some concern over disengagement of the female splines on the pressure disk from the male splines on the hub. That would have to be checked out, but I think you have a good chance at pullin it off. This shows a steel installed between the pressure disk and the last fiber plate. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/02/24 at 19:51:54 "DBM am I reading this correctly? You're saying that the release cam and rod may be worn and that could be causing the clutch to be partially engaged when when I have freeplay at the lever??" What I am saying is excessive lost motion between the release cam and release shaft (not the pushrod) can fool you into installing a longer pushrod. The cam hits a stop built into the clutch cover. Everything can be hard up (release plate, pushrod, release cam, and hard stop) and you will still be able to rotate the release arm (the arm that hooks to the cable). The release arm will have a few degrees of rotation and it will make you think that the pushrod is not pushing on the release plate when in fact the pushrod is pushing on the release plate. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/02/24 at 20:03:40 OK, YouTube came through. This vid may help to clarify the issue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzrkDOeU5hs |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/02/24 at 23:07:30 Wow. Just wow. DBM i can't thank you enough. Amazingly Informative, really appreciate the video. I think this mystery is close to being solved. Before I order any parts I'll check for freeplay on the case, and pull the cover again to see if the arm is rotating in the cam with it not moving from the hard stop. Edit: wait, --- I know this thing with the release arm shows me that when I switched to the shorter rod, why it was able to allow the springs to fully compress and also for the spring bolts to hit the arm -- what I don't grasp is: after I installed the fresh Barnett clutch with the middle length rod, what has been causing this initial wear? Could this new information about freeplay in the release arm be causing the clutch to wear so badly in the first place? Also, is the freeplay between the cam and shaft by design? Is it intentionally loose from the factory? Or is the looseness a direct result of use? Is it possible for the freeplay between the cam and the rod to get so bad that it prevents the clutch from fully disengaging when pulled in?? |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by ThumperPaul on 05/03/24 at 11:47:33 Great tutorial Mike. Thanks for sharing! Philly - Photo of the flat side of the release shaft in Woody. It was in decent shape at 11k miles and fit snugly in the cam. It was even a tighter fit going into the new hardened steel "Sneeze cam" I installed. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/03/24 at 12:51:46 Thanks Paul, This leads me to believe there should be no freeplay front he factory, and I've confirmed today I do have some decent freeplay as it's currently assembled, and I know that based on the wear, the pushrod is fully against that cam. If this is true, I'm inclined to believe that freeplay between the release shaft and cam could have been causing the clutch to not fully disengage when pulled in..... However I've never noticed any creep. EDIT: DBM does this sound correct? What are your thoughts? Is it possible that the freeplay based on wear between the cam and the actuating shaft is large enough due to wear that when I pull the clutch in, the cam is not fully acting on the pushrod and is keeping the plates partially engaged?? Not enough to cause the bike to pull with the clutch in but just enough to burn the plates, especially under high load? |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by ThumperPaul on 05/03/24 at 15:39:55 Let’s see what Mike says, but I’d do the clutch drag test I described earlier. Get the rear wheel off the ground, start bike, put in 1st gear, wheel starts moving, pull the clutch lever, and apply rear brake, then let off rear brake while the clutch is still pulled. If the clutch is fully disengaging, the rear wheel should virtually stop spinning. A little drag is normal, but it shouldn’t be going crazy aggressive like it’s in gear. Does the bike try to ‘walk’ on its own with the clutch pulled (disengaged) while in gear (like when sitting at a red light)? When you roll on the throttle hard, does the clutch slip (engine is screaming, but the bike isn’t pulling very well)? |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/03/24 at 16:19:34 Paul, I'm not opposed to these tests, but due to the current condition of the pressure plate I don't think it would make sense to do right now until those components are replaced. I do appreciate your input and this this test makes absolute sense given what I imagine to be going on, but as a test would be compromised by the current condition of the assembly, that being a new clutch pack WITH the compromised plate. Generally, though, no I have not observed any creep. What I really think is going on right now is that l, as DBM pointed out, freeplay due to wear between the actuating cam and shaft creates a condition where when I pull the clutch in, there is enough disengagement to prevent creep or pull, but the plates are still in minimal enough contact to burn. And when under serious load, they burn significantly. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by ThumperPaul on 05/03/24 at 17:36:37 You’re right. I wasn’t thinking about it correctly. Mike is amazing! It’s crazy how that little cam and shaft can cause such a nightmare! I really hope you get it resolved and put this saga in the rearview mirror! |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/03/24 at 19:12:39 I think I may be wrong about this assumption, much more knowledgeable people here than me, Including yourself are helping me solve this. My current inclination is to replace the release arm, cam, pressure plate and pack. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/03/24 at 20:37:00 I think I am doing a poor job of explaining what I want to get across. Let's start with terminology. Freeplay is a clearance inherent to the design. In general, it is desired and intended to provide running clearance to accommodate expansion or wear. The clutch release system needs freeplay so that the clutch pressure disk is free to apply full spring pressure to the plates. You don't want anything to prevent the springs from applying full force to the pressure disk. When your fingers release the clutch lever on the handlebar, you want the release mechanism to get out of the way and not interfere with the pressure disk. Lost Motion usually is the result of wear and it is not desirable. You want the release arm on the clutch cover, release shaft, and release cam to move as if they were all one piece. When the flats on the shaft wear, the release cam can move independently of the release shaft. You want freeplay in the clutch cable. When you are not squeezing on the lever there should be some free play. If you were somehow able to lock the release arm on the clutch cover so that it could not move at all, you can still adjust the clutch cable so that there is freeplay. When your fingers are not on the clutch lever, you want it to be able to move a bit. You don't want the cable tight like a banjo string. You want freeplay in the clutch release mechanism inside the clutch cover. Since there is a hard stop incorporated into the clutch cover, the only way to introduce freeplay into the internal mechanism is by changing the length of the pushrod. Make the pushrod shorter and you increase freeplay. Make the pushrod longer and you reduce freeplay. Make the pushrod too long and you eliminate freeplay, and then everything is up hard. Once there is no internal freeplay, the springs can no longer apply full force to the pressure disk. As the clutch components wear, the pressure disk moves to the right. As the pressure disk moves to the right, freeplay is reduced. Eventually, as wear continues, all of the freeplay is used up and the assembly will hit hard and the clutch will start to slip. Since the manufacturer knows that clutch plates wear, they provided a way for periodic adjustment. That would be the pushrod. It comes in three different lengths (44.5mm, 45.5mm & 46.5mm). They also provided a way for the owner to check the system. That would be the two marks on the crankcase. When everything is new and pristine and adjusted correctly, the lever arm on the clutch cover will fall between the two marks on the crankcase. To check this, you lift the lever arm gently to remove the internal freeplay. If the lever arm is situated too high in relation to the marks on the case, it indicates something might be out of whack inside the clutch. Maybe the fiber plates are swollen up due to fuel fouling, or the clutch is assembled incorrectly. Maybe there's an extra steel plate in there. Maybe a thrust washer is missing. Maybe the pushrod is just too short. If the lever arm is situated too low in relation to the marks on the case, it usually indicates wear. It could also be too low because the clutch is assembled incorrectly. For instance, the special fiber disk (piece 20 of Philly's illustration in reply #5) may have been replaced with a standard fiber plate, or an aftermarket set of plates may be installed (thinner plates). Maybe an extra thrust washer was installed. But usually, if the lever arm is situated too low, it's due to wear. The friction plates could be worn, the steel plates could be worn, the pressure disk could be worn, or the clutch hub could be worn. It could be wear on all of the above pieces. The manufacturer understands that the fiber plates will wear, and that just because the plates are worn doesn't mean they are no longer serviceable. So, they provide a shorter pushrod to prevent the release mechanism from going up hard and causing the clutch to slip. Install the shorter rod, reintroduce reasonable freeplay, good for another 40K miles (hopefully). What the manufacturer didn't plan on was lost motion in the release arm & cam assembly. Suzuki just assumed that would never wear, and would act as one solid piece. Once the release shaft wears a bit, now there is lost motion, and the lever arm will be situated too high. It will give you a false indication. The release cam and release mechanism can be hard up solid, but you will still detect movement in the release arm, and you will think there is free play in the internal mechanism when there isn't any free play. So, you will see the lever arm situated too high, and you will figure you need a longer pushrod, and you will put in a longer pushrod (just like you did Philly), and the clutch will slip. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/03/24 at 20:49:54 Regarding clutch drag. IMO, no need for any special test. If your clutch is dragging you will feel it. If you clutch is dragging you won't be able to find neutral with the engine running. Philly, could you find neutral with your engine running? Could you feel the bike creeping forward when the engine was running and the bike was in gear? The way this clutch is designed, the wave washer always keeps the plates touching slightly. I don't understand the wave washer, but I do know that you can't leave it out. Take the wave washer out and clutch action sucks. When this clutch is assembled correctly, and you have oil of the correct grade and viscosity, the clutch drag is minimal. I guess if you spend countless hours stuck in traffic with the clutch lever pulled in, it might cause some wear, but I would be surprised if that's the cause of Philly's pressure disk wear. Something doesn't seem right. Either there is a problem with assembly, or the rider technique is abusive. If you can't find anything wrong with the way the clutch is assembled, then I would modify the pressure disk as previously discussed. That will put steel against the innermost fiber plate and increase longevity. You need to do a step-by-step with a complete set of pics so we can help you get through this. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/03/24 at 21:04:40 So, mike. And before I ask let me first say I deeply appreciate your attentiveness to this. 1. Wear between the release cam and release shaft, as you mentioned, was not anticipated by the manufacturer. 2. Is freeplay between the release cam and shaft factory intentional, or is it solely due to wear? 3. Could this freeplay cause a condition in which, when you pull in the clutch, you are separating the plates enough to disengage enough to shift, but not enough to fully separate the disks? I think based on the information you provided that wear between the cam lobe and actuating shaft is preventing the disks from fully separating when I pull in the clutch and this is causing it to burn up. Does this sound plausible or am I totally out of reality? To answer your questions: I can find neutral easily without any issues while running. However I have had an issue where, during take off, sometimes the bike will shift from second into neutral. I always considered this normal |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/04/24 at 03:08:44 "2. Is freeplay between the release cam and shaft factory intentional, or is it solely due to wear?" I would not refer to it as freeplay, it is lost motion caused by wear. There has to be some clearance between the cam and the shaft, otherwise you would not be able to assemble the parts. So, clearance is intended by design, but it should be very, very small. I don't think the factory anticipated how much the shaft would wear. When the shaft and release cam are new, they are difficult to assemble. It's hard to push the shaft through the cam. Think about the design and how they incorporated the marks on the case. Whoever designed those reference marks didn't think the shaft would be rotating in the cam, they thought the shaft and cam would move in unison. You can't expect the reference mark to be useful if the relationship between the shaft and the cam is changing. Essentially, the reference mark is an indicator of cam position, so if the cam gets loose on the shaft, you have no way of knowing what the cam position is. The marks become meaningless. "3. Could this freeplay cause a condition in which, when you pull in the clutch, you are separating the plates enough to disengage enough to shift, but not enough to fully separate the disks?" Of course, the lost motion could be sufficient to prevent full disengagement of the clutch, but you would still be able to shift. I shift motorcycle transmissions all the time without even pulling in the clutch lever. Just chop the throttle and pull on the shift pedal. Finding neutral with the engine running, that's another story. If the clutch is dragging, it is very difficult to find neutral when the engine is running. Just a little drag makes that operation a real PIA. "I think based on the information you provided that wear between the cam lobe and actuating shaft is preventing the disks from fully separating when I pull in the clutch and this is causing it to burn up. Does this sound plausible or am I totally out of reality?" I'm not gonna say it's impossible, but I think it's highly unlikely. As the clutch wears, the pressure disk is moving to the right, and that results in increased movement to the left when you go to disengage the clutch. For instance, the release cam travels about .070" when you pull in the clutch lever. I'm gonna guess that by design, the freeplay on the internal release components is about .010". So, when you pull on the clutch lever, the release cam has to travel .010" before all the freeplay is taken up and the cam starts to push on the pushrod. That leaves .060" of remaining travel to disengage the clutch. As the clutch wears, the freeplay is reduced. So, let's say that the clutch wears sufficiently to use up the .010" of freeplay. Now when you pull the lever you have the full .070" of cam travel to disengage the clutch. So as the clutch wears your disengagement travel will increase. You state that you don't have problems finding neutral with the engine running. IMO, you do not have a clutch drag problem. But that automatic shift from 2nd into neutral doesn't sound good. There's a good chance that's associated with your shift linkage hitting the alternator cover. Different problem, save that for another post. When you discovered the first worn out pressure disk, was the hub also worn out? You said you replaced the pressure disk, did you also replace the hub. I have this old picture of your worn-out pressure disk. That is really bad. Is the current pressure disk also worn this bad? If you wanna do a step-by-step I am willing to help, but you're gonna have to throw up pictures when I ask for them, and your gonna have to try your best to follow directions. This is a helluvalot of wear. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by ThumperPaul on 05/04/24 at 05:56:01 Mike, your explanation and detail is about as good as it gets! Thanks for sharing - I’m learning too! Philly obviously needs to replace the worn out parts like his pressure plate and any worn down discs, but in your expert opinion what part(s) are failing and causing the issue? Or do you think it’s an assembly issue even though Philly is pretty confident he’s assembled everything correctly? You probably remember that I had a heck of a time wrapping my head around the orientation/direction of the wave washer (even after you sent me a visual and I studied the Clymer manual). |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by verslagen1 on 05/04/24 at 07:27:06 DBM, do you know what the interface between the #7 pushrod and #10 bearing looks like? I typically find a burr on the edge of the pushrod whenever I work on it. And I usually round both ends of the rod before reinstalling it. This will shorten the pushrod so you need to start with a longer 1. I feel this improves the engagement with #5 cam as the rounded end will rotate easier in the pocket rather than the sharp edge bear against the pocket. I also pick the length of rod so that 12.5mm sticks out of the spider when installed. 13mm is too long and will disengage the clutch when you install the cover. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by verslagen1 on 05/04/24 at 07:41:28 Could it be that the stack up height of 18 WWS and 19 WW vs 20 friction disc are causing a problem? It seems to me that these are meant to provide a slipper clutch feel but if the friction disc never fully engages than 1/6 of the clutches engagement is never fully there. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by ThumperPaul on 05/04/24 at 09:06:11 Verslagen, what are WWS? Wave Washer(s)? I’m trying to learn here myself. Thanks. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/04/24 at 13:23:56 When you discovered the first worn out pressure disk, was the hub also worn out? You said you replaced the pressure disk, did you also replace the hub. I have this old picture of your worn-out pressure disk. That is really bad. Is the current pressure disk also worn this bad? The hub was not worn significantly to my eye (without taking any measurements) the last time NOR this time. It feels flush and has no indication of wear anything like the pressure disk. Regarding the walkthrough I appreciate this and would be able to do so, I would commit myself to following direction and can upload any photos that do not fit here either on an external site or via Google drive. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/04/24 at 16:33:44 Paul asked: " in your expert opinion what part(s) are failing and causing the issue? Or do you think it’s an assembly issue even though Philly is pretty confident he’s assembled everything correctly?" I'm not an expert and I have no idea what's goin on with Philly's clutch. It's very hard to evaluate without any pics, or being able to lay my hands on the parts, or ride the bike. Versy asked: "DBM, do you know what the interface between the #7 pushrod and #10 bearing looks like?" If you are referring to #8 (Push Piece), it looks like this. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/04/24 at 16:50:59 Versy, I am not confused by your approach with the pushrod. Are you saying that you always hand work the pushrod to achieve 12.5mm protrusion from the push piece? IMO, that will work fine as long as all the components subject to wear are in pristine condition. But once stuff starts to wear the pushrod has to be shortened to prevent the release mechanism from holding the pressure disk off the plates. I personally never find any wear on the pushrod. The thing is very hard, and so is the cam. The release bearing should prevent the pushrod from rotating with the release plate, so the relative motion between the pushrod and the cam would be minimal. I did find a little galling on the socket in the cam once, but it was superficial. Regarding the wave washer, the wave washer assembly (18 & 19) in the relaxed state is about .149", while the fiber disk in way of the wave washer is .139", so you have to compress the wave washer before the special fiber disk starts to lock up. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/04/24 at 16:53:20 The special outer fiber plate is .139". All the other fiber plates are about .115". |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/04/24 at 16:58:14 It takes about 125 pounds of force to compress the wave washer to a point where the special outer plate (20) starts to grab. That's a little over one-half the available spring pressure (4 springs at 56 lbs = 224 lbs). |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/04/24 at 17:14:10 IMO, that wave washer maintains light contact between all the disks when the clutch is disengaged. I have no idea how the thing works, but I do know the clutch action sucks without the wave washer. I think it promotes uniform engagement, but that's just a guess. Only da Shadow knows. Philly, when you refer to "any photos that do not fit here " do you mean the file size is too large? If you use a Windows computer, you can open the photos with "Snipping Tool" and crop the picture. That works great. It drastically reduces the file size and also allows you to mark up the photo. In addition, when you crop the picture you can zero in on the detail you are interested in. Just right click on the file and select open with "Snipping Tool". It's better if you put the photos directly into your posts. If you wanna do the step-by-step, tell me exactly what condition your motorcycle is currently in (fully assembled, clutch cover off, fully disassembled, etc.). If it's disassembled, then start taking photos of all the parts. We can start from there. It will be a back & forth process, so be patient. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by verslagen1 on 05/04/24 at 17:58:37 17111E62606763530 wrote:
No, just a number I shoot for. anything over 12 should do, but must be less than 13 |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/05/24 at 09:21:37 Mike, I'll report back. The current condition of the bike is that it is assembled, with the worn plate and a Amazon clutch kit a threw in from caltric. The pressure plate I bought a replacement for (was only 40 bucks). I'm anticipating needing yet another clutch pack and am waiting for another paycheck for that. Also we're anticipating rain for essentially this entire week so I won't be able to open it back up since I'm doing all to work on the sidewalk currently. It's totally unrideable currently. Clutch skips so bad I'm having neighborhood kids riding wheelies around me on BMX bikes. Can't get above 20mph. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/05/24 at 13:51:05 "It's totally unrideable currently. Clutch skips so bad I'm having neighborhood kids riding wheelies around me on BMX bikes. Can't get above 20mph." Please, never ride a motorcycle if the clutch is slipping, especially if it is slipping that bad. Even a short ride under those conditions will completely wreck the clutch. If I give my bike throttle and there is a hint of clutch slippage, I get off the throttle and limp home. If I am in a situation where I can't stop the slipping by staying off the throttle, I park it and get my truck or have the bike towed. This is very important. I want to be sure I understand the situation. You have the bike assembled with a new set of clutch plates & springs, but the old worn-out pressure disk is in there. Is that correct, new plates, old worn-out pressure disk? My word you are in a tough spot. Doing this work on the sidewalk is a tall order. I'm glad you filled me in on your situation. Since you have a weather delay, maybe we can use the time for some preps. Can you take a picture of your bike as it sits right now, then try and crop the picture to reduce the file size and post the picture? That will get you set up for the back & forth with the pictures. If the cropping doesn't work, we can try different approaches. I've gotta be able to see your parts. Maybe some of the other members have good methods to reduce the file size so that you can easily post photos. What sort of tools and equipment do you have? Do you have a dial caliper or a vernier caliper, something that can measure accurately (say to within +/- .004")? Can you gather up a few odds & ends in preparation for surgery. -4 washers, 1/4" ID x 7/8" OD -Short section of soft rolled copper tubing (1/4" or 3/8" or 1/2") -A bathroom scale or suitable method to measure spring force Let's use the rain delay to get ready for the job. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by ThumperPaul on 05/05/24 at 15:13:26 I can't upload photos directly from my iphone due to too big size. I have to download them from icloud (where they get shrunk) to my laptop. Then I can post to the forum. Kinda a pain. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/06/24 at 11:40:00 Philly, if you find it too cumbersome to come up with a spring testing rig, consider ordering a new set of OEM springs (not aftermarket, not Caltric, not EBC, not Barnett, you want Genuine Suzuki). The OEM springs only cost $4.26 a piece. Given all the trouble you have had with your clutch, that's a cheap investment. You may ask why not use Barnett? Barnett offers good quality springs and they are stiffer and provide more travel......but you must always consider the release cam. The stock release cams are prone to failure so if you are running a stock release cam you want to run OEM springs installed at the as-designed height. If you can't test your springs to make sure they apply adequate force, then you should replace them with springs of known quality. Solution, Genuine Suzuki clutch springs, part # 09440-20016. This old post provides some background info. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1526991117 |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/06/24 at 15:40:48 Thanks DBM, I'll make sure to pick up OEM springs. The other items I can make sure to pick up im assuming the washers are for the pack removal? Regarding caliper/micrometer I can grab one of these as well. Going to upload some photos tomorrow |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/07/24 at 15:15:20 Alright, just posting this from my phone -- bike as it currently sits. Any pictures for the walkthrough I can just take a resize on windows no problem. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/08/24 at 01:02:26 Sweeeet! That's a hotrod for sure. Looks like full lines of communication are open. Your workshop is a bit rough around the edges, but we can make do. Before you touch anything let's gather up some data. That way we will know what you started with. First things first. Disconnect your negative battery cable. The Savage has a mysterious habit of going into auto-start mode with absolutely no warning. It has something to do with the decompression relay. It's always a good practice to disconnect the battery before you start workin on your motorcycle, but on the Savage it's imperative. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/08/24 at 01:06:52 Check the free play at your clutch lever and tell us what it is. It should be about 1/8". Lightly pull on the lever to take up any slack in the cable, then look at the gap between the lever and perch. Take a picture so we can see what you've got, Like this. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/08/24 at 01:07:55 Loosen the adjuster at the lever perch and screw it all the way in. Like this. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/08/24 at 01:10:43 Then unhook the clutch cable from the release arm on the clutch cover. The cable must be unhooked so that it does not obstruct your view or interfere with release arm movement. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/08/24 at 01:12:27 Once the cable is unhooked, you should be able to clearly see the two marks on the crankcase. These are the marks in question. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/08/24 at 01:27:21 Use a suitable solvent (Brakleen, alcohol, etc.) to clean all the oil and grease off the clutch cover in way of the release arm. You will be applying a reference mark on the cover with a permanent marker. Protect the reference mark. Don't wash it off. Wait until all your inspection and setup work is complete before you wash the cover for final reassembly. Place a 12" crescent wrench on the release arm and let it hang. Don't push on the wrench. Don't try and cycle the wrench with your hand. I believe you have a stock release cam. They are prone to failure. Exercising the release arm with the wrench could break the cam. Just let the weight of the wrench take up all the freeplay in the release assembly. It should look like this. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/08/24 at 01:31:03 With the weight of the crescent wrench taking up all the free play, observe the position of the release arm in relation to the two marks on the crankcase. Take a picture so we can see where it is. The desired position should be like this. Show us how yours is. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/08/24 at 01:35:05 Reconfirm that there is no grease or oil on the clutch cover in way of the release arm. Then use a permanent marker to make a reference mark on the clutch cover. Just use the release arm like a ruler and draw a nice clear line along the top edge of the arm. Take a picture so we can see how it lines up. Like this. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/08/24 at 01:38:26 Take the crescent wrench off the release arm. Let the arm move down and verify that your reference mark is clearly visible and has a nice sharp edge. Note how much my release arm has moved down from the reference mark. Does your move down about the same amount? Take a picture so we can see. It should look like this. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/08/24 at 01:52:38 Once you have collected the as-found data, and posted the results, hang tight so we can digest the info. If we don't have any other requests, we will provide further instructions. Don't just forge ahead, the results of your initial checks might warrant additional inspections prior to disassembly. The photos are important. They allow us to actually see the parts. Although it takes time to collect and post the photos, they save a lot of time in the long run. Sometimes, a defect might not be obvious to one member, but another member may be intimately familiar with it. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/09/24 at 16:25:26 Thanks DBM, should be able to get this data after work tomorrow and upload. Appreciate this |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/10/24 at 21:03:34 Can't wait to hear and see the results. Here is another vid that I think you will find informative. I have five or six additional vids ready to go, but I want you to collect the info I requested before I post the additional vids. I don't want to get you off track. I believe you will see from this vid why I want you to accurately mark your clutch cover. It will be very useful. You don't want to just fix your clutch; you also want to figure out why it keeps failing. Do you think you can find some steel shim stock, maybe an old beat-up feeler gage? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmzxlKaLVJA |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/11/24 at 09:26:17 Sorry for the delay DBM -- want to be respectful of your time here. We've just been getting consistently rained out this week. In any event, here are some photos: This is the freeplay at the perch as it currently sits. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/11/24 at 09:27:17 Here is the lever will freeplay taken out as instructed with the crescent wrench: |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/11/24 at 09:30:02 and, shockingly, here i the lever with the wrench removed at the bottom of it's free travel. mind you, it will not drop down to this position loosely -- a gentle push puts in in this position where it stays -- I believe this to be wear between the cam and the actuating shaft. Just to clarify further I am putting no weight on the arm in this picture, I am not actuating the arm with the wrench. This is the lowest position of the available freeplay with no force acted upon the arm. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/11/24 at 09:42:48 This further post is just to address the content in your previous ones: 1) the battery/ decomp controller: Just want to point out that the entire decomp system and relay have been removed from this bike. 2) I am using the stock release cam. 3) regarding your most recent video -- thank you this is very helpful in illustrating and I do, at this early point in diagnostic, belive we are already coming to the crux of the issue. I think travel due to wear between the shaft and cam is preventing the clutch from fully engaging at rest, or preventing the clutch from fully disengaging when the lever is pulled in, due to wear between the ID of the cam and the shaft. I know that harder springs with the stock cam can cause the cam to fall apart due to it's sintered construction. I'm wondering if, in my case, the cam has not failed so catastrophically, but instead is wearing away against the actuating shaft due to the same added stress of the stronger barnett springs... thoughts? Finally regarding parts: I have a new pack, springs, thrust washers, pressure plate coming in sometime this upcoming week. Additionally I was able to get a new stock cam/arm assembly (the entire thing) for very cheap from a shop around the corner that actually happened to be sitting on them for quite a while. completely unused. EDIT: hopefully the hub and basket are not on need of replacing as well. Last time I was in there they were okay, we'll see. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by ThumperPaul on 05/11/24 at 13:58:53 Good photos. Your free play at the perch looks ok. I’ve had it this close and things were fine. I use a “quarter coin gauge”. I need to be able to get a quarter in the gap and it should almost fall out (or barely slips out - that’s where I have mine set now) when you let go of the quarter. If you don’t gently push the arm down, where does it sit just naturally resting? You’re definitely on to something here (cam wear, push rod too short, cotter pin ain’t sitting right, cam not matching up to the stop rest right, and I had to bend my spring a little to make it fit better with the Sneeze clutch cam). Perhaps not applicable in your situation, but when I installed the stiffer Barnett clutch springs, I also installed the longer 46.5mm pushrod, and the Sneeze upgraded clutch cam. Woody had some solid clutch engagement with those changes. You’re gunna get this resolved! I can feel it! (If DBM can deal with me, yours should be cake!) |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/11/24 at 16:13:48 Nice job on the photos Philly. I'm glad the vids are helping a bit. Freeplay at the perch looks just right. Your release arm on the clutch cover looks perfect......but.......as you have aptly noted it doesn't seem right. That mark will prove beneficial, protect it. "and, shockingly, here i the lever with the wrench removed at the bottom of it's free travel. mind you, it will not drop down to this position loosely -- a gentle push puts in in this position where it stays -- I believe this to be wear between the cam and the actuating shaft." Your comment about having to gently push the release arm down tells me that the return spring is not acting on the assembly. That could be due to a missing, broken, or detached spring, but I personally think it's because the release cam is on the hard stop. Once the cam is on the hard stop, any further rotation in the release shaft is a result of a loose fit between the cam and the shaft. You have concluded the same thing. I'm not sure that you understand the significance of this condition. If the cam is on the hard stop, and the pushrod is hard against the cam, it prevents any further movement toward the right. The release plate, release bearing, and pressure disk can't move to the right. The springs are pushing on the assembly, but the cam will not allow any further movement toward the right because the cam is on the hard stop in the clutch cover. If the pressure disk can't move toward the right, it can't pinch the clutch plates. Can you recall if your spring looked like this? Was it engaged with the release cam? |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by ThumperPaul on 05/11/24 at 16:37:23 Here's another angle of the spring and stock cam release on Woody. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/11/24 at 16:48:10 DBM, the last time it was open, I didn't bothe to check the condition of the spring or the cam other than cursory glance. It hadn't occurred to me the potential for wear between the cam and the shaft as even a possibility. Of course this will be the first thing I take a look at after parts come in and the cover comes back off |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/11/24 at 16:50:54 " I think travel due to wear between the shaft and cam is preventing the clutch from fully engaging at rest, or preventing the clutch from fully disengaging when the lever is pulled in, due to wear between the ID of the cam and the shaft." Since you can rotate the release arm down with your finger, I think your cam is on the hard stop. And if your cam is on the hard stop there is no clearance between the cam and pushrod. And if there is no clearance between your cam and pushrod, the effective stroke of the release cam is increased. As I previously mentioned, freeplay in the assembly (cam, pushrod, and push piece) is desirable. There must be some clearance in that release mechanism to permit the pressure disk to move right and apply pressure to the plates. So, when that cam is on the hard stop in the clutch cover, you want the pushrod to be able to move right & left just a little bit. In the absence of any sort of factory spec, I'm gonna guess maybe .010" to .020" (0.25mm to 0.50mm). If the release mechanism needs .010" to .020" clearance to ensure full clutch engagement, then the release cam effective travel must be reduced by .010" to .020". That cam only moves about .070", so let's assume the effective travel is about .050" to .060". If, due to wear or incorrect assembly (pushrod too long), there is no longer any freeplay in the release mechanism, the effective travel of the relase cam increases to .060" to .070". The cam no longer has to take up any clearance (free play) before it starts to move the pushrod, so it's effective travel starts at the instant it is moved. If the cam effective travel is longer, then it releases the clutch farther. It moves the pressure disk farther to the left. Moving the pressure disk farther to the left will disengage the clutch more not less. I believe your current clutch setup has the pressure disk too far to the right, and I think it is too far to the right because the face of the pressure disk is severely worn. When you get the clutch cover off, please fabricate a jack tool (like the one I showed in the video) and jack the release cam hard up on the stop. Then check the position of the release arm when you rotate it clockwise (viewed from rear). I bet it lines up with the mark you applied to the clutch cover. The jack tool doesn't have to be fancy. You can make it from an old piece of scrap metal or wood. It just has to be rigid enough to hold the cam hard on the stop in the clutch cover. Also, take some pics of the return spring on the release shaft so we can see how it is installed. Great score on the new release shaft and cam. I still suggest you be ready to shim it to remove as much lost motion as possible. A junk set of feeler gages can be used for shims, or you might be able to get a cheap steel shim assortment at a local auto parts store. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/11/24 at 17:04:56 Although you no longer have a decompression controller, I still advise that you disconnect your battery when working on your hotrod. It's simply the best practice. Fingers are hard to replace; fires are hard to extinguish. I think you are right about the stiffer springs accelerating wear on the shaft. My personal observation is that the cams don't wear, only the shaft seems to wear. The stiffer springs will aggravate the condition. In addition, I think that as the flats on the shaft shaft wear, the force applied to the cam increases. Have you ever rounded out a socket head screw (allen screw). At first, the wrench seems a bit loose, and as you continue to rotate the wrench it wipes out the flats in the socket. That's because the mechanical advantage goes up as the socket spreads open or the corners of the wrench wear off. I think the cam behaves in a similar manner. As the shaft wears, it applies more spreading force across the flats in the cam, since the cam is not ductile, it fractures rather than rounding out. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/11/24 at 17:16:27 Here are some more vids for you to view. They should help you prepare for the job. They might also raise some questions that should be resolved before you commence surgery. Clutch Removal & Primary Inspection https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reNteqyw72Y Checking Spring Preload Installed height https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b15OGCy4kac Clutch Pack Disassembly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9WnfCZlP2k Clutch Pack Reassembly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJE6G0MjYbI Clutch Reinstallation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoS1Lr1cTTs Selecting Correct Pushrod and Adjusting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iSvcwOYaAs I hope you will find the videos useful. I'm not very good at this YouTube stuff but I'm learning. It's kinda fun. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/11/24 at 17:58:49 DBM, Let me first say that your videos are very well made despite your apparent limited experience with this (wouldn't have noticed, they are well-edited and the audio is great.) I would sincerely encourage you to generate more content (if you don't already) via YouTube because your knowledge not just with this bike but generally, in terms of resourcefulness, fabrication, etc. is tremendously useful to us young aspiring gearheads. Back to the issue at hand: Great suggestion with fabricating shims from feeler gauges -- this is very clever and I do have some junk gauges to cannibalize for this purpose, however -- Am I correct in assuming that the brand-new, out-of-the-box cam lobe and actuating shaft should have exactly zero loss of motion? would this be an anticipated modification should loss of motion start to present itself again in the future? additionally, let me further summarise this group diagnostic for the sake of clarity, please correct any of the following if written in error: 1. Based on the pictures provided today, you have apprehensively concluded that, because the arm is able to be manipulated by hand, that the cam is on the hard stop build into the cover. 2. The Cam is on the hard stop because the entire clutch assembly is pushing to the right much more than is desireable in a mechanically sound savage, due to the pressure plate wear. 3. Because the Cam is resting on the hard stop along with the pressure plate wear, the disks cannot fully engage because there is no move movement by which to move further to the right. a shorter pushrod could temporarily allievate this, however there is only so far to the right the entire assembly can move before you start running into externalities -- such as the bolt heads hitting the shaft, which is what I experienced earlier. All of this being said -- here is what I do not yet understand and where I feel this journey is continuing towards. Months ago, when I posted that first pressure plate which was totally worn away, what I did immediately afterward was to replace that pressure plate, AND put a brand new barnett kit (disks, steels, and springs) in the bike. It was a relatively very short period of time until the pressure plate was totally worn away again and the disks were totally wapred/ glazed. (here is a picture I should have posted weeks ago of all of the plates/disks). We know there is loss of motion between the shaft and the cam, as evidenced by the pictures today showing the position of the arm. Does this loss of motion directly correlate to me wearing down these clutch packs/pressure plates so quickly and if so, how? My working theory is that loss of motion between the cam and the shaft causes the rotation of that shaft in relation to the force acted upon the cam to be totally out of wack, and because of this the cam is not rotating to the degree it should due to the loss of motion -- with the cam not fully rotation the plates cannot fully disengage, and because of this start to wear -- simultaneously as the entire pack moves to the right due to this aggressive wear, the cam is forced onto the hard stop with no free play, causing the pack to not be fully clinched together when the lever is not pulled. So basically, the clutch is in a condition of weird contact at all times, making it burn out. Sorry I'm losing steam here ... lost my train of thought. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by ThumperPaul on 05/12/24 at 05:24:46 Philly, are those the original discs/plates? Or are those the Barnett discs/plates? What first jumps out at me is that I see what appears to be rusty spots on the plates and there is even some on the discs (perhaps residual from the plates). Is that rust? Something is definitely astray if that’s rust. Or is this a recent photo after the discs/plates have been sitting outside in the elements for several months? |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/12/24 at 09:01:39 They've been sitting outside for a couple weeks is all |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/12/24 at 18:30:27 "Am I correct in assuming that the brand-new, out-of-the-box cam lobe and actuating shaft should have exactly zero loss of motion? " No, I don't think so. I think it will still have a bit of lost motion. It has to have a little bit of clearance in order to facilitate assembly. But it should be less that what you currently have. Shimming it makes a big difference. You will just have to check it. Since you have a new shaft and a new cam in hand, slip them together and see how they fit. Let us know what you find. In the event that the new parts have a loose fit, you can set up a shim now while you are waiting for the other parts. "you have apprehensively concluded that, because the arm is able to be manipulated by hand, that the cam is on the hard stop build into the cover." I base my conclusion on the reported absence of spring action returning the arm. The only way I can see the spring not returning the arm is for the cam to be on the hard stop or the spring being disconnected, broken, etc. But I think you and I are pretty much on the same wave length here. "The Cam is on the hard stop because the entire clutch assembly is pushing to the right much more than is desireable in a mechanically sound savage, due to the pressure plate wear." Yes. In addition, you might also have an extra-long pushrod in there. Have to check when you get it opened up. Do you recall anything about the pushrod? "Because the Cam is resting on the hard stop along with the pressure plate wear, the disks cannot fully engage because there is no move movement by which to move further to the right. a shorter pushrod could temporarily allievate this, however there is only so far to the right the entire assembly can move before you start running into externalities -- such as the bolt heads hitting the shaft, which is what I experienced earlier." Yes, yes & yes. "Does this loss of motion directly correlate to me wearing down these clutch packs/pressure plates so quickly and if so, how?" I don't know. Have to see what's inside. IMO, the lost motion is bad in a number of ways. The biggest problem I see is that it will mislead you into selecting the wrong pushrod. The release arm will sit high in relation to the marks, and you will select a longer pushrod to move the arm down. In so doing, you will consume all the freeplay and possibly even hold the clutch from fully engaging. What can you tell us about the pushrod? Did you change it on your previous attempts? Did you install the current pushrod or did some prior owner or service shop change it? Is it a genuine Suzuki pushrod or is it a pushrod that has been fabricated to suit? I will try to put together some guidance on shimming the cam. I believe Dave also shimmed his cam. You might want to ask him about his experience with the shimming. It's a juggling act but it definitely improves the release assembly. Seems to hold up too. You can see from my vid how tight the assembly still is after over 38K miles, most of which are with heavy Barnett springs. I'm not suggesting heavy springs. I have a Sneezy cam. I don't recommend heavy springs with the stock cam. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/12/24 at 18:39:02 Thanks DBM sounds like we are speaking the same language. As far as the pushrods go, I have all three genuine Suzuki rods and the middle length rod is in there. The only other rod I've ever used was the shorter one, before the previous pressure plate was replaced. I did put the longer rod in exactly one time but the clutch was so far from engaging i couldn't even move. I'll mess with the new cam when I picknit up tomorrow and get an idea of the clearance on the new part. The rest of the parts should come in this week. Is there anything that would be useful for you to see inside the case? I'm planning on just taking pictures throughout the job. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/13/24 at 21:23:15 Here's the new cam/shaft: https://youtu.be/Gb_ySmpnC2k?si=0i4ygoQ3VjcYyxrM |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/14/24 at 01:55:18 At this point, I think your plan to take pictures as you disassemble will be sufficient. I would take shots from several angles each time you remove a part. Before you remove the release plate, take photos that show how it is situated in relation to the flange on the hub (recessed, flush, protruding, etc.). Pay attention to how your thrust washers are arranged. Get shots of the plate stack before you disassemble the pack. Get pictures of your wave washer assembly before you remove it from the hub. Get shots of your release cam and release arm and return spring while they are still assembled. Try to get good detail on the return spring and its orientation. Get pictures of the bronze bushing in the primary driven gear (basket) and the spacer that it rides on. Get pictures of the pressure disk that show how much it is worn away. Get photos of the hub flange so we can see if it is worn. Get a measurement of the spring post height like I showed in my video. Measure all the plates (steel & fiber), and measure the plates stacked up without the wave washer. Thanks for the YouTube. That factory fit is pretty sloppy. I've never had the luxury of a brand-new release shaft. As previously mentioned, I will try to put together a vid on the shimming. I think it will be beneficial. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Michael Moore on 05/14/24 at 09:28:12 Surviving Philly, since you've got a new shaft and cam do you have a micrometer or very good caliper that will let you accurately measure the OD of the shaft and also the thickness at the flat? If you can do the same measurements on your cam that would be great. I'm going to be pulling the clutch cover on my new to me 97 LS soon to check the condition of the chain tensioner, and while it is apart I'll get those measurements off of my 27 y.o. and 15K mile parts to see if there's any difference. thanks, Michael |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/14/24 at 17:17:15 So, here is the vid on shimming the release cam. If you make a shim, it is important not to make it so thick that you have to force the shaft through the cam with shim installed. The vid shows about how snug you want things. The shim will have some ragged edges from cutting the material. Use a small smooth file to knock off those ragged edges and burrs. You want a nice smooth shim with good tight bends. Hope this helps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccZbhM9J5PA |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by ThumperPaul on 05/14/24 at 18:58:37 Thanks for the honorable mention in the video Mike. I learned from the best = you! I actually kinda carefully messaged (bent) the new spring a bit. Is the idea of the shim to save from buying a new release arm/shaft ($86 at Partzilla)? The cam is $10. A Sneeze can is like $35 I think. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Michael Moore on 05/14/24 at 19:23:18 794558405D485F7D4C58412D0 wrote:
Except all of his cams were in the shop that recently went up in flames so he doesn't know if any survived. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by ThumperPaul on 05/15/24 at 05:09:32 60444E454C48416042425F482D0 wrote:
Except all of his cams were in the shop that recently went up in flames so he doesn't know if any survived.[/quote] Oh dang! That’s awful news! Forget the cams - hopefully he can recover from the loss of the shop! |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/17/24 at 12:10:20 Brief update here. Michael I'll try to get that data for you. Regarding the job itself I'm still waiting on parts and clear skys. Maybe Sunday God willing. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Michael Moore on 05/17/24 at 12:31:10 No rush on the measurements. I've got a complete side cover coming and I can measure that without having to pull the cover off the complete bike right away. Mainly, I'm curious if all the OEM cams are a loose fit on the shafts. thanks, Michael |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/17/24 at 12:58:07 It's a pretty loose fit as far as I'm concerned, did you see the video I posted? I'll be curious to see the condition of my used one |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Michael Moore on 05/17/24 at 15:02:09 Yes, I saw the video. Are the all like that? |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/17/24 at 17:48:59 Personally I don't have the experience to say, however this part specifically was just recently ordered from parzilla by the shop around the corner, deal fell through and he was sitting on the parts. Never used |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by ThumperPaul on 05/18/24 at 05:47:40 It’s always good reading when dudes are talking about how tight their shaft fits. I like when my shaft fits good and tight. It shouldn’t be loose and sloppy. :o |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by FinnHammer on 05/18/24 at 09:02:12 ThumperPaul (you naughty guy) I think you just qualified for an honourable mention in the "classic quotes" category. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/21/24 at 14:07:00 Alright, So, I dropped the ball here guys. Sunday night my girl totaled her car hitting a deer of all things right outside the city limits. Car was totaled. I had to get the bike back together first thing this morning and didn't have time to get pictures before work. Given all th effort of this forum to support me I apologize for that. I will be posting pictures/ videos of the former release arm and cam lobe for any reference that may have. Bike is running fine right now as would be expected with a new pressure plate and clutch pack, the issue of course is that if the problem hasn't been solved I'll be doing this whole thing again in roughly 4 months. I just want to give a special thank yo to DBM for all of his insight and time. Sorry I had to throw things together so quickly this morning. I did want to contribute back to the forum with any useful info. -paul |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by ThumperPaul on 05/21/24 at 15:06:26 Well tell us about it…. Did you see anything unusual? Was your release arm shaft to cam fit loose or tight? Which pushrod length did you install? I forget - did you go back to OEM springs or did you install the Barnett springs? Sorry about your girl’s car! Was the deer totaled too? Did you get any venison out of the unfortunate meeting? |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/21/24 at 17:35:38 Here's some info: I believe my hub is worn, however not nearly as significantly as the pressure plate. We're I gto guess based off what I saw today, about half a mm. The actuating shaft was worn. The cam lobe was not. However the amount of wear was surprisingly minimal to my eye without taking measurements and I will be posting pictures of both the arm and lobe. I believe the love was not worn. I only exclusively use the middle length rod. I used OEM springs and pack this time around. Girls civic is totally done but luckily she's fine. Unfortunately no venison, I wasn't there to put it down nor collect the spoils, not that we have an area to dress a deer down town anyway. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/22/24 at 01:39:14 Glad you got it back on the road. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/25/24 at 18:02:58 Actuating arm wear |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/25/24 at 18:03:20 Another |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/25/24 at 18:05:11 Pressure plate # 2 |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by DragBikeMike on 05/25/24 at 23:15:30 That pressure disk is remarkable. Something ain't right in that clutch. Either it was assembled incorrectly, or you have a serious problem with operator error. Hopefully you corrected the problem this time around. Hard to believe you burned through two pressure disks in less than a year. Thanks for the pics. Very informative. Also, I forgot to mention, glad your lady didn't get hurt in the crash. |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by ThumperPaul on 05/26/24 at 05:33:51 I’m good at rounding off bolts! You’ve succeeded at rounding off your shaft! I know you mentioned lots of stop and go city driving, but dang. You sure you’re installing the special fat fiber disc in the #1 spot? |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by ohiomoto on 05/26/24 at 18:12:34 That pressure plate...wow! #SMOKED |
|
Title: Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en Post by Surviving Philly on 05/26/24 at 18:28:09 Best angle grinder I've ever ridden |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |