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Message started by ThumperPaul on 02/22/24 at 09:19:12

Title: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by ThumperPaul on 02/22/24 at 09:19:12

I’m back. Can thread inserts be used in the crankcase where the engine cover bolts into (alternator side cover)? I believe I’ve managed to screw one up. When the good book says max 13m.m. - don’t try 14 n.m.

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by zevenenergie on 02/22/24 at 09:33:37

yes, that is possible, but make sure you drill and tap straight. So not by hand, but by drilling a hole in a piece of wood with a drill press and using that as a guide.

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by ThumperPaul on 02/22/24 at 10:15:02

Thanks Zevenenergie. That's a good tip! I was also concerned about if there is enough material in the area to drill out a 1/4" hole to install the insert. It looks like it, but things haven't exactly been going my way with this bike.

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by zevenenergie on 02/22/24 at 11:03:55

It,s al in the past. (As long as your spark plug is in)

There is also such a thing as effortless consciousness. And that always goes your way.

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by ThumperPaul on 02/22/24 at 12:07:03

Any easier ideas than a thread insert? JB-Weld Marine (works on aluminum). Some red thread locker? Just dope it up with some RTV real thick and oozing out?

It does happen to be the bolt next to where the leak from the gasket is.

The biggest problems I’ve had with Woody are things I done myself! Argh!

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by zevenenergie on 02/22/24 at 12:29:04

I think all your problems are related to not wanting to do what you need to do. By negating this from resistance you create more work and annoyance.

That's why I talk about effortless consciousness. You practice that by staying away from your resistance.

Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance.
Its not just bull, is a real way of life. 8-)

And it is practical. Real spirituality always is.

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by ThumperPaul on 02/22/24 at 12:47:55

Thanks for the spiritual enlightenment, philosophy, and free unsolicited psychiatry.

There is a difference between maintenance and self-inflicted repairs. I'm fine with basic maintenance, and I'm not in denial about how it is probably best repaired. I raised the question, remember....

Just asking about other ideas. Not a psychological evaluation. I'm pretty aware of my personality defects. I hope you are aware of how you are perceived by others.

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by zevenenergie on 02/22/24 at 13:47:14

I,m just being me.

Maybe you can drill it deeper and tap it deeper, put a longer bolt in.
But I think you should take te effort and stay whit your first and best option and stop fu*cking around.

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by Dave on 02/22/24 at 15:20:10

On things that screw into aluminum that have very small threads....maybe it is best to use the torque at the lower end of the range - not the higher one! When I tighten the side case bolts I use a 1/4" drive ratchet and one hand.....I just snug them up. If the pieces are flat they don't need a lot of torque to hold them together.

Check and see how deep the hole is (as Zevenenergy mentioned). Maybe you can use a longer screw.

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by zevenenergie on 02/23/24 at 02:40:25

To drill strait:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/7fT_iTUJT-s

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by ThumperPaul on 02/23/24 at 06:05:33

Thanks guys. To make matters worse, it seems the bolt snapped in the hole. I can’t tell for sure.

I’ve never done a thread insert on an aluminum part (only in wood). I’m trying to learn and understand how the thread insert is going to stay secured in the hole.

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by ThumperPaul on 02/23/24 at 06:23:47

Dave. I used a 1/4” ratchet and hand tightened snug. But not trusting my wrist and hand as a torque wrench, I pulled out the 3/8” digital torque wrench (with fresh recharged batteries) and went around the horn. So much for trying to be technically precise and tight. I blame the manual - it should have told me 11n.m. as the upper end of the torque range.

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by ThumperPaul on 02/23/24 at 08:46:28

Thoughts on these? The M10-1.5 external threads might be too big. There isn’t a lot of material space diameter where my bolt hole is located. And getting the hole straight and insert threaded straight and getting it flush with the engine case while the motor is in the frame sounds very intricate and tricky for a knob like me. https://www.amazon.com/Z-Externally-Threaded-Stainless-Internal/dp/B002KVAWWI/ref=mp_s_a_1_14_maf_2?adgrpid=97253022175&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.vfuovicNA1imyOXXZyc1n2UIiahrf3oKuLcPxCrkf0mZn5qPgFRYd49z1y6hGwJLxxH2mmKgU7YqT0lXKQMpxSSHfBB0YihNZMVRsy7OqebKZkh9enQJ5QljM5qukIb_1KSUge342DWI4Ok1v0FMNCX5nuH5IRZb3guLTKUJbvE8P3Qb6CAFwDHoVBK88NXf0_MwdspQ7s7h9MTO0RHUbA.7JRk4ZSp4I05l2HunBy4afRsFqCLafnFr7RdQSNGUx0&dib_tag=se&hvadid=664354317351&hvdev=m&hvlocphy=9027669&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=b&hvrand=15166401185840358672&hvtargid=kwd-297236866243&hydadcr=14662_13541172&keywords=threaded%2Binserts%2Bfor%2Baluminum&qid=1708706181&sr=8-14&th=1&psc=1

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by zevenenergie on 02/23/24 at 12:40:45

You need these:

http://https://i.imgur.com/Ynd3s6us.png

In Europe we call them helicoil, you must have size m6. The set contains a drill and a tap and tools to insert the insert.
If you do it right it will become stronger than it was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAXVvhpnuUU

But if your bolt is broken off, you still have a chance to remove it. If you have broken it, then the piece that is in it is not stuck.
You then drill a hole in it and insert a special tap and you twist it right out.

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by ThumperPaul on 02/23/24 at 14:19:38

Thanks. I saw these hellicoils and M6 kits. You’re right.

I have an extractor set. But can I get it down in the hole to remove the piece of bolt is the question. And if I start tapping in the removal tool, what kind of further damage can I inflict upon myself!

I haven’t dug in yet. Waiting on parts and then I’ll sit down and do everything at once. I am dealing with my own “negative energy” about it right now.

Thanks.

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by Dave on 02/23/24 at 16:19:28

I can't imagine the screw would have sheared off deep in the hole - normally they break right at the place the cover meets the threaded portion.

If it turns out that the piece is broken way down in there - I could centerdrill a 6mm bolt to provide you with a guide for drilling the broken piece and using a screw extractor.

The helicoil kits work great - they really are pretty easy to use.

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by ThumperPaul on 02/23/24 at 16:50:57

I am going to give the helicoil a shot. He're what I'm dealing with. There may not be any bolt broken off in the hole. The bolt will have plenty of length to grab once I get the helicoil in there. If there is some bolt still in there it's deep enough to be a non-issue.

As it is right now, the bolt can only grab maybe 1-2 threads -not enough to torque. It just slips.

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by ThumperPaul on 02/23/24 at 17:08:47

I got this kit. For the price if I get one use out of the tools, great. WE have Amazon Prime so it will get here tomorrow before the other parts. Postal Service in Houston is a cluster f*ck (exact words of our delivery lady).

https://www.amazon.com/Rocaris-Thread-Repair-Compatible-Repairing/dp/B07F15WFR1/ref=asc_df_B07F15WFR1/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312165917265&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12125103007967941508&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9027669&hvtargid=pla-569779491248&mcid=c57879c2b68b3f20adf7c3220a2b7235&gclid=Cj0KCQiAoeGuBhCBARIsAGfKY7x3RSd79SosOrW2x2HGMs-RvomymuFnbpsEpOK8IP5IpqnczY--r8MaAv1ZEALw_wcB&th=1

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by Dave on 02/24/24 at 09:54:29

To help me drill the hole straight in this scenario - I don't always jump to the final drill right away. If you drill the hole in small increments it is much easier for the drill bit to help you stay straight.

Start with a drill just a tiny bit larger than the existing hole, and make several small steps up to the final size. With this small size screw that may only be 1,2,3 drills - but do the best you can.

Years ago I bought a set like this when they cost half this much.....it provides all the sizes you need when threading holes.

https://www.amazon.com/HIDOTOL-115PCS-Cobalt-Hardened-Fractional/dp/B0C4H5KH4H/ref=asc_df_B0C4H5KH4H/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=673645779000&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14992992419365600884&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9014420&hvtargid=pla-2203142113883&mcid=4947a3fcbae8321ca6f672f671b74938&th=1

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by zevenenergie on 02/24/24 at 11:52:10

There are different lengths of inserts, I think the one in the link is too short for this job. I'm not in to imperial dimensions. So in metric, 10mm long insert seems more suitable to me.

The drill size for helicol m6 is 6mm. So I would immediately go to that size, because you can then use the hole in the lid to drill straight.

No mulipal small drils nessery.Because you have already pulled the thread out of the hole and it is therefore already 6mm.

I would ask someone to check whether you are drilling straight. You can only see one direction when you are drilling.

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by DragBikeMike on 02/24/24 at 12:29:11

How long is that bolt in your picture? It looks too short. The hole in question is a dowel hole, so the first 11mm of the hole has no threads at all.

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by DragBikeMike on 02/24/24 at 12:31:12

The dowel holes require longer bolts. Each bolt should stick out from the cover 11mm before you start to engage the threads. Here you see the three bolts along the upper side of the cover. They all stick out 11mm.

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by DragBikeMike on 02/24/24 at 12:32:09

But the center bolt is a lot shorter than the adjacent bolts. That's because the adjacent bolts are dowel holes.

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by DragBikeMike on 02/24/24 at 12:33:04

The bolts that go in the dowel holes should be 45mm long. Check your bolt. Is it 45mm?

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by DragBikeMike on 02/24/24 at 12:35:29

I marked a continuously threaded screw and counted turns. The screw threads in right about 12 turns. Since the pitch is 1, that means the hole should be threaded 12mm.

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by DragBikeMike on 02/24/24 at 12:38:06

I measured the threaded portion of the hole to see how deep they drill it. That portion of the hole is 19mm deep, so there still remains another 7mm available for threads.

Taps come in sets, with #1 (taper), #2 (plug), and #3 (bottom). Note how the tip of each tap gets more blunt.

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by DragBikeMike on 02/24/24 at 12:42:25

I took a #3 tap (bottom) and ran it in an additional 3 turns. That provided an additional 3mm of thread engagement.

You can grind the end of a tap off to provide even more depth of cut. See how this 1/4-20 UNC tap has been blunted by grinding the end. You can get an additional 3 to 4mm of threads by blunting the end of the tap.

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by DragBikeMike on 02/24/24 at 12:55:36

If you procure a #3 bottoming tap, you can cut more threads until the tip of the tap bottoms in the hole. That should provide about 3mm more threads. Then, if you blunt the end of the tap taking care not to cob up the thread cutting edges, you can run that in about three more turns to gain another 3mm of good threads. Total new threads 6. That will give you one-diameter of additional threads. Then use a 50mm bolt. You must verify that the bolt doesn't bottom out before it tightens down on the cover. If the bolt bottoms, you may have to trim the bolt slightly, or possibly install a washer under the head of the bolt.

The inserts require a bit more skill and tooling. If you mess up with an insert, it's time for a new engine case. Try to restore with a tap and slightly longer bolt. If that doesn't work, you can always go for the insert. If you have to resort to an insert, practice on scrap material first. Make sure you understand the tang and how to snap it off. Make sure you understand how the insert locks in place once it is installed correctly. Don't mess around with free-hand drilling. Use a drill press to make a proper guide to keep the bit exactly perpendicular to the case. Get it crooked, buy a case.

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by ThumperPaul on 02/24/24 at 13:26:48

Thanks Mike. There are 4 different length bolts. I haven’t measured, but I remember them being #14 (1) #15 (3) #16 (4), and #17 (1) on the parts diagram. I ordered 1 of each. The hole in need takes a #16.

I need to get it taken apart. You are correct that this hole has a dowel. No wonder I can’t grab any threads until it’s starts about 10mm in the hole. Maybe I just need a longer bolt and just mixed bolts up. This would be a welcome gift. I do think there is a piece of bolt broken off in the hole though perhaps where the threads actually start.

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by ThumperPaul on 02/24/24 at 14:07:02

Well Hallelujah!! You solved my problem Mike!! Again!!

The bolt that I had in there was about 41mm. Too short. I'm not sure how I thought it was grabbing in the threads.

I went to the #17 hole (lower back near the sprocket) and there was the 45mm in there. (I measured 45.9mm, call it 46mm.) I tried it in the questionable dowel hole and it's threaded in there nicely and the bolt goes flush to the cover. No stripped thread, no extra broken bolt in the hole! YAY!!

Now I need the correct #17 length bolt which is coming in the mail. The 41mm is too short for that hole. I want to see this #17 bolt. It needs to be like 45-46mm, but it's somehow a different length than a #16 (of which there are 4 per the parts diagram). I remember having 4 of them, but somehow mixed around incorrectly. And I was missing the #17 and moved bolts between holes thinking I had it right (obviously not). I think the the prior owner mixed up a bolt with the sprocket cover and then I just followed his mistake.

Yay! No drilling, tapping, helicoil needed!!

Thanks again, Mike! You have a gift (or curse) of identifying my stupid mistakes (If I was Paul, I'd make this stupid mistake!)! I am forever grateful for ALL YOUR HELP!!

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by ThumperPaul on 02/24/24 at 14:12:12

#14 is a shorter bolt if I remember right. A #16 seems to work in hole #17. I didn't have a unique length #17.

https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/suzuki/motorcycle/2005/boulevard-s40-ls650/crankcase-cover

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by Surviving Philly on 02/24/24 at 14:12:43

Whenever I'm taking some kind of gasket-ed cover with several bolts, I always consider it best practice to grab an old cardboard box, number the bolts and punch them through the box for disassembly. This way you know exactly what goes where when you go to bolt it back up.

Title: Re: Thread inserts Engine case cover
Post by ThumperPaul on 02/24/24 at 17:43:38

Smart Philly. I did that with the head cover, but not here. I followed the prior owners mistake and that was obviously wrong, then swapped a couple that seemed better, but at the end of the day - I'm 1 bolt off. Hole 17 per the parts diagram is missing from my set of bolts. I have one coming and I'm anxious to see it's length and test it.

I still have the fun of getting this leak resolved once and for all.