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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Bike Won't Start /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1706217221 Message started by ThumperPaul on 01/25/24 at 13:13:40 |
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Title: Bike Won't Start Post by ThumperPaul on 01/25/24 at 13:13:40 Bike won't start. I'm going through the usual steps and wondering if I'm missing something obvious. Background - It started about 8 days ago before we hit a cold spell for Houston. When it started, but I forgot to open the petcock valve and the bike died about 2 houses down the street. Realizing my mistake, I open the petcock and give it 10-15 seconds to get some gas to the carb. Hit the starter button, and it just gave a weak groan at the starter. Tried again and no cranking. Lights come on and decomp clicks. Push it home. Pull the battery and test. Reading 12.6 volts. Ok, should be enough right...? Put it on the battery tender overnight and decided not to think about it anymore for the day. Overnight it only charged up to 12.9V. I'm used to seeing something like 13.3-13.4 fresh off the charger with it dropping to something like 12.8-12.9 after resting for 15-20 minutes. Take the battery to AutoZone and sure enough - dead cell. So, I buy a new battery on Amazon suspecting I've found the problem. Install the next day, and the bike still wouldn't start. Now I'm suspecting the starter solenoid, as I really couldn't hear it click after the decomp. The timing is almost exactly when the louder decomp makes it's noise. So, I buy a new starter solenoid and install today. Bike still won't start. Bought new back probes (old ones were toast) and the solenoid tests out fine. Test the starter next, right? What else could it be? Connections all seem good from battery, to solenoid, to starter. I'm losing my patience with this bike and getting annoyed. Needing some thoughts and encouraging words and ideas. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by ThumperPaul on 01/25/24 at 14:08:29 Found it. Starter is fried! Good grief. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by DragBikeMike on 01/25/24 at 17:02:28 How did you determine that the starter is fried? Is it burnt up or discolored? Got any pics? |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by Ruttly on 01/25/24 at 18:38:09 Super easy to replace |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by ThumperPaul on 01/26/24 at 05:15:20 Mike, with the battery disconnected, I removed the starter. Put it in the bench vise. Using jumper cables, I connected it to a good motorcycle battery I keep charged on the bench. Connected the negative to the body of the starter in the area of the mounting holes. Connected the positive to the terminal post on the starter. Absolutely nothing. I’m going to dissect the starter today and see what I can find. I’ve already ordered a new aftermarket starter off Amazon ($70). OEM is like $300+. I have a video of the prior owner trying to start the bike (it’s painful to watch). I suspect the PO tried to crank too many times, too long, no resting between attempts, and using a tired battery with a dead cell, and the decomp deleted/non-existent on the bike. That’s my theory. I think I just got lucky with the 3 starts I got out of the bike after the head R&R and other fixes. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by DragBikeMike on 01/26/24 at 18:42:59 Would be cool to see what's inside that starter. Once you get the new starter installed, can you disassemble the old one and post some pics? Particularly interested in the condition of your brushes and commutator. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by Dave on 01/27/24 at 03:02:12 I have seen posted threads on this forum where the owners have run the starter too long - and the adhesive holding the magnets in place has let go. The magnets then contact the rotor and make a mess. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by ThumperPaul on 01/27/24 at 05:09:38 I removed the 2 long bolts and was able to separate the one end (opposite the gear) by 1/2”. Then I was stuck. How do you open the thing up? Some small amount of insulation material fell out when I barely opened it. I want to see the guts too! |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by Dave on 01/27/24 at 09:22:04 If you have the later style with the electric connection in the aluminum end - Take the gear end off first, then slide the rotor and electric end out the other side. The magnet makes the rotor want to stay inside.....just push it out. If you have the early style with the white plastic insulator in the round housing - that insulator will have to slide out with the end cap as the wires are all interconnected. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by ThumperPaul on 01/27/24 at 09:35:41 Thanks Dave. It appears to be an aftermarket based on the parts number/model. The connection isn't in the end (its in the round body). And it doesn't have any white on it. It doesn't match your description of new or old. I probably just need to man up on it. I didn't spend much time trying to fiddle with it the other day. I'll upload a pic. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by ThumperPaul on 01/27/24 at 09:51:06 My bad. I think I have the later style in an aftermarket part. Brain couldn't remember where the connection was located exactly. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by ThumperPaul on 01/27/24 at 09:54:27 With the bolts removed. It smells gasy. I think the carb flooded and peed on it before I bought the bike and rebuilt the carb. Can I just whack the gear end with a hammer and beat it out? Bang it on the bench? Using a hammer on this might help me feel better!! |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by Dave on 01/27/24 at 10:51:51 Could be aftermarket....all of the ones I have have a silver painted round body (not shiny plating). You should be able to tap the gear end plate and get it to come off - the gear end should have the same O ring seal and just be a loose fit. If the rotor does not move or turn...maybe a magnet is loose and wedged between the rotor and body. I took one apart for you! (I need to clean it up and paint it for use on the Retro Thumper). |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by ThumperPaul on 01/27/24 at 11:04:21 Let me go beat on it! Sounds like fun. It's stuck like chuck! It doesn't want to budge at the o-ring at the gear end. The parts number tracks back to an aftermarket parts number I saw on a starter on Amazon. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by ThumperPaul on 01/27/24 at 12:00:32 Not a very good photo, but I don't see anything unusual from what I can see. Must be down in the guts... |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by ThumperPaul on 01/27/24 at 12:19:47 Holder Set. I can't get it off the housing - electrical screw is too long to slide it through to the inside and can't get the angle. Not going to tear it down any further. Good enough to take a peek. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by Dave on 01/27/24 at 12:30:06 Push the rubber bushing out with the bolt still inside the bushing. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by ThumperPaul on 01/27/24 at 12:33:38 Rotor. Armature, Bushings, Commutator...or whatever else this called. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by ThumperPaul on 01/27/24 at 12:36:50 407B7661707C67617A727F60130 wrote:
I tried. The connector is too long and the whole thing comes into contact with the shaft holder in the housing. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by Dave on 01/27/24 at 13:02:30 The only thing I see that looks weird is the sealant on the end of the rotor, and the erratic coloring of the commutators (the carbon is normally spread evenly across the copper. Has that sealant been rubbing on something - or is that just how they made it? You could spend some time with an ohm meter and test the windings on the rotor....if you found an open circuit that would be your problem. It is likely that would cause a dead spot - but the starter would turn on the other windings. Clean up the commutators with some fine sandpaper, clean it off, and put the thing back together and see if it works. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by ThumperPaul on 01/27/24 at 13:21:53 That's kinda what I thought. Poke around with the ohm setting on the multimeter. I don't see the sealant you're talking about. I'll clean up the commutators too. I am interested to see if it can be rejuvenated. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by Dave on 01/28/24 at 11:54:49 Well I got mine back together....and it still works! Getting it back together is a bit of a challenge! Seems like 6 hands might have been "handy" to have. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by ThumperPaul on 01/28/24 at 12:02:11 Haha Dave. I cleaned mine up and put it back together this morning. No luck. The internal winding must be fried. Starter got warm, but nothing. The gear/shaft moves freely by hand. Yeah, I ended up using 4 screws to wedge and prop open the coil springs and get it back together. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by DragBikeMike on 01/28/24 at 12:33:02 Wow! Thanks for all the great pictures. Very interesting. The thing looks OK visually. Certainly doesn't look "fried". I would check each commutator segment to make sure it is not grounded to the shaft. The factory manual says to check "any two segments at various places (to test for open)". I don't understand that. Seems to me you would expect each loop to be connected to commutator segments 90 degrees apart since the hot brushes and ground brushes are 90 degrees apart. Any of you electrical types know anything about that? I have a good starter. I should take it apart and wring it out. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by ThumperPaul on 01/28/24 at 15:19:23 It's a door stopper now, Mike. Lol. Even if I could figure out how to correctly check it for resistance, I can't fix it. I did poke around with the multimeter, but I couldn't tell what I was really doing. I'm done with it. Maybe I can get a $10 core charge return from AutoZone for it. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by verslagen1 on 01/28/24 at 17:21:34 27212E52505753630 wrote:
There's not a lot you personally can do, other than replacing the brushes and cleaning up the commutator. Checking the coils for internal burns is all that's left. If you look at the brushes, they alternate between positive and ground at 90° apart. take the probes and touch the commutator about 90° apart to see if each coil has continuity. Each one should have the same resistance, it won't be much, 1 or 2 ohms. And should show infinite to the shaft. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by och on 01/28/24 at 18:47:50 Couple of things. First and foremost, when you replace the starter, make sure the o-ring fits tight when you push it back in, or you will have an oil leak. But you already know this from the previous threads. That being said, there is something weird going on between the battery/starter dying. It happened to me 2-3 years ago - it was a hot summer day and I went to make a quick errands run on the bike. It started just fine without any signs of weak battery. I finished my errands, and as I was sitting at a red light the bike suddenly died completely. No lights, no crank, no signs of life at all. Got it over to the shop, the first thing the guy tested was the battery and it was completely dead and would not take a charge. And it was a quality Yuasa AGM battery, only about 2 years old at that time, very strange for it to die suddenly the way it did. First order of business, got the battery replaced before we could diagnose everything else. Next, turned out to be a fried starter. At that time, the bike had maybe 3k on the clock, so also weird for it to fail. This leads me to believe there is some sort of a pattern, especially that your issue is similar. I'm thinking maybe the battery failed internally, and created a voltage spike that fried the starter - but then the starter wasn't even being engaged when the bike died. I also needed the left hand switch assembly replaced, as one of my front turn signals wasn't working, and the headlamp would not switch from low to high beam. They were all working just fine before the incident. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by ThumperPaul on 01/28/24 at 19:14:27 I hate electrical problems. This battery and starter is like the chicken and the egg debate. Essentially they killed each other is what I chalk it up to. I chased an electrical issue all over on a 50cc scooter once. In the end, the taillight socket was causing all sorts of haywire issues. Thanks guys. Appreciate all the help. Learned quite a bit about starting motors that I’ve never given much thought to. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by verslagen1 on 01/28/24 at 20:08:26 interesting, there have been a number of starter stuck on cases due to a stuck relay. most wouldn't notice a starter continuously running and that would drain a battery and tax the charging system. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by och on 01/29/24 at 04:19:06 It never occurred to me that my starter might have been stuck on and thats what fried the battery. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/29/24 at 05:25:08 I see a lot of brush wear on the comutator. I would clean that up (no abrasives) and inspect the brushes for wear. You may be able to square them up with a file and flip them. But since they are wear items, it's best to replace them. (EDIT: I responded at the end of page one not realizing there was a page two) So i see that my suggestion was already covered verslagan...I would clean the comutator with alcohol. Measure the diameter of the brushes and estimate a length...brushes can be found on Amazon or eBay. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by ThumperPaul on 01/29/24 at 05:36:29 Good to know, Verslagen. I replaced the relay, but I will be listening closely for continuous running of the starter from now on. It’s interesting you brought that up because when I tested the relay it had continuity but I didn’t consider if it was breaking the circuit and shutting down. I cleaned up the kill switch and start button housing assembly with electrical contact cleaner. It was functioning before I cleaned it, but it felt pretty sticky. You have me thinking the start button could get stuck and continuously sending juice to the starter. Hopefully I’ve got it cleaned up; I don’t need any more things to worry about and monkey with on this bike. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by ThumperPaul on 01/29/24 at 06:02:02 Hi Gary, I did clean up the commutator with electrical contact cleaner, but I did use fine grit sanding block as well. Maybe I added insult to injury with the sanding block. It is nice and shiny now though ::). The “brushes” are rectangular and I can’t tell what they are made of. Interesting little gizmos to be called brushes. Part of me wants to try to fix it because it still “looks good”, and part of me says screw it and just install the new starter that’s already on its way here. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/29/24 at 07:01:38 Brushes are made of carbon-graphite. As they wear they make a mess inside the motor and can actually inhibit the motor from starting just from the dust. You will note that the brushes have springs under them, that is to ensure constant contact. When the brushes become too short they will not longer make strong contact with the comutator. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by ThumperPaul on 01/29/24 at 10:02:39 Thanks Gary. And I learned how tight the brushes can get with those springs. Holding back the brushes in those springs while getting the assembly back on the commutator takes 6 hands as Dave said. I ended up wedging screws on the outside of the circular springs (in the gap) so I could get it back together. They are definitely making good contact and didn't appear to have much wear. |
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Title: Re: Bike Won't Start Post by ThumperPaul on 02/01/24 at 05:42:32 Installed the starter and previously installed new battery and solenoid and Woody fired right up! A buddy and I took a ride for Woody’s longest ride yet, about 30 miles of suburban boulevards and back roads. I must toot my own horn and say all the work we’ve done worked out well. Woody runs pretty darn good. Barnett clutch springs give new life to the clutch and it feels great. Verslavy CCT has the chain humming nice and quiet. New semi-metallic front brake pads work too good - I’d like a bit more progressive feel (that should improve with a few more miles). Valves sound nice and quiet but not too tight after re-doing the valve lash a second time (didn’t want to go too tight and not enough clearance the first try). The rejetted and rebuilt Mikuni VM36 performed marvelously. Murray at Murray’s Carbs is still in disbelief that I swapped out the 165 main jet he installed with a 200 main jet (Lancer’s recommendation). No signs of being too rich at WOT and I’m interested to find out what kind of gas mileage Woody will get with the 200 main. All in all, Woody is finally running pretty darn good! Thanks to everyone for all your help and patience with me! Now, do I sell it or keep it? I’ve still got a small pesky oil leak which I think is where the stator wires come out of the crankcase cover. Just enough to be annoying! It doesn’t leak if the bike is level on the motorcycle stand. Only leaks when leaned over on the side stand. I may have to try to fix that. It’s bugging me! |
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