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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Sneeze Clutch Release Cam & Push Rod /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1701786315 Message started by ThumperPaul on 12/05/23 at 06:25:15 |
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Title: Sneeze Clutch Release Cam & Push Rod Post by ThumperPaul on 12/05/23 at 06:25:15 I’ve read OldFeller’s and DragBikeMike’s posts about beefing up the clutch and/or returning it to good working condition. Good stuff, but it did leave some questions and seeming debate. Upgrading the cam release to a hardened steel Sneeze cam release sounds like a no-brainer upgrade to keep you riding instead of pushing the bike out in the middle of no where. Push Rod Length - Massive confusion and I can’t find a straight clear answer (I probably have a reading comprehension problem and like short simple answers ). When do you need the short, medium, or long version of the push rod? 1) if the clutch plates have worn down but are still within service limits, does a longer or shorter rod compensate (assuming factory installed is the medium length???)? 2) if you install a Sneeze cam release, how does this affect the answer to #1, and/or how do you decide which push rod length is best? 3) will heavier clutch springs compensate for thinning aging clutch plates? Would a washer under each stock spring help compensate? Would a set of Barnett springs be worth the money without swapping out the clutch plates? I’m basically looking for the budget-minded way to extend the life of the clutch, ensure reliability, and prevent slipping under WOT. A poor man’s beef up or return to like-new performance. I don’t need the thing to deal with 50hp, but 40hp down the road maybe. |
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Title: Re: Sneeze Clutch Release Cam & Push Rod Post by DragBikeMike on 12/05/23 at 11:37:53 "1) if the clutch plates have worn down but are still within service limits, does a longer or shorter rod compensate (assuming factory installed is the medium length???)?" Partially correct. As the clutch components wear, the pressure disc moves farther to the right (toward the release cam). Eventually, all the freeplay is used up and the clutch won't engage fully when the hand lever is released. So, a shorter pushrod will be required to allow the pressure disc to clamp all the plates together. A longer pushrod will not compensate for wear, it should only be used to restore correct lever geometry. |
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Title: Re: Sneeze Clutch Release Cam & Push Rod Post by DragBikeMike on 12/05/23 at 11:43:15 "2) if you install a Sneeze cam release, how does this affect the answer to #1, and/or how do you decide which push rod length is best?" You use the marks on the engine case. Install everything including the clutch cover and clutch cover gasket. Tighten up the hardware. Raise the lever on the clutch cover by hand to take up all the slack in the release mechanism. Look at where the clutch lever on the clutch cover lines up with the marks on the engine case. If the lever is not centered between the two marks it needs a different pushrod. Too high = need longer rod. Too low = need shorter rod. |
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Title: Re: Sneeze Clutch Release Cam & Push Rod Post by DragBikeMike on 12/05/23 at 11:48:50 "3) will heavier clutch springs compensate for thinning aging clutch plates? Would a washer under each stock spring help compensate? Would a set of Barnett springs be worth the money without swapping out the clutch plates?" Yes, heavier springs will work fine. The Barnetts are good quality, ground square, and hold their spring rate over time. In other words, they don't go weak from use. But if you intend to use heavier springs you absolutely must do something about the stock release cam. The Sneezy cam is the solution. Washers under the springs aren't a good idea. You risk putting the spring into coil bind and ypu might break something. |
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Title: Re: Sneeze Clutch Release Cam & Push Rod Post by LANCER on 12/05/23 at 13:03:06 A note about the Barnett springs; I installed them in my clutch years ago with stock plates ( checked to insure within specs) and have had no issues with the clutch, no slippage. I still have the stock release cam and it has not failed to date. I do have the new mod version by Sneeze on hand just in case it’s needed, or when I pull the side cover next time. Keep in mind that I’ve not ran my engine really hard for quite some time, with no 1/4 mile or 0-60 runs from a standing start, just going WOT from 2nd or 3rd gear up to about 80-85. It’s entirely possible that I just have not stressed it enough to cause that part failure. |
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Title: Re: Sneeze Clutch Release Cam & Push Rod Post by Dave on 12/05/23 at 14:36:20 5B56595452450500370 wrote:
Well that was my plan as I had gotten some of the stronger cams from Sneezy. The stock release cam had gone 17,000 miles - until that one night I was pulling into the parking spot at Bike Night and suddenly the bike didn't have a way to release the clutch! Thankfully I had slowed down to a crawl and the front/rear brakes could stall the engine! I rode it 20 miles home without a clutch - and I almost made it home before the pieces got loose and damaged things. I had to replace a fiber disc, steel plate and the inner clutch hub. Don't wait too long to install the Sneezy clutch cam......I did! :( |
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Title: Re: Sneeze Clutch Release Cam & Push Rod Post by springman on 12/05/23 at 14:51:30 Very informative gentlemen. Thanks. And thanks to you also ThumperPaul, these were questions I also had since my clutch is slipping under hard acceleration. And I don't like it. |
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Title: Re: Sneeze Clutch Release Cam & Push Rod Post by ThumperPaul on 12/05/23 at 15:25:37 Thanks guys! Really helpful. My lever is sitting on the high side (so needs longer push rod). I did this check with a bunch of free play in the cable and able to wiggle the lever a bit. At the same time, the bike has been sitting up unable to start. In neutral, it is now difficult to roll around in the garage. Same thing if I pull the clutch lever in neutral or in gear. Doesn’t want to roll (it’s not the brakes binding, checked that first). I think the clutch plates are seizing together. They are probably glazed because when I got the bike I drained about 3 quarts of "oil". It was like 2 quarts oil and 1 quart gas (flooded carb in past life). Very thin and gased up. I wish I could work the new Rotella T4 around in the engine and warm it up, but as y’all know I’m dead wood right now. Any tricks to free it loose until I get her running? Or anything dumb I shouldn't do!! |
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Title: Re: Sneeze Clutch Release Cam & Push Rod Post by Dave on 12/05/23 at 16:08:33 If the bike is in neutral - the clutch is not moving when you push the bike. In neutral the only transmission shaft that is turning when you roll the bike is the rear one the belt pulley is attached to (output shaft).....the shaft the clutch is attached to does not turn when you are pushing the bike in neutral (input shaft). 'IF" you put the bike in a gear and then pull in the clutch lever....then you will be rotating the clutch basket and get drag from the clutch. If you are finding the bike hard to push when the bike is in neutral - then either the front or rear wheel is dragging for some reason. Lift up the bike one end at a time and see if the wheels rotate easily. |
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Title: Re: Sneeze Clutch Release Cam & Push Rod Post by ThumperPaul on 12/05/23 at 16:27:02 Thanks Dave. It does seem like its dragging at the front pulley. I did adjust the belt tighter and I put about 1/2" of slack (vertical movement on the low side) at the mid point of the belt. I don't think I got it too tight, but perhaps I did. If I over-torqued the rear axle, might I have crushed the bearing? I'm starting to suspect I did something wrong here. EDIT/UPDATE: I had torqued the rear axle nut to 65 ft-lb. Specs say 40-63 ft-lb. I backed off and torqued to 50 ft-lb. Much better. Don't give me wide ranges like 40-63! I'll try 45 ft-lb tomorrow. Don't want that rear wheel falling off! |
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Title: Re: Sneeze Clutch Release Cam & Push Rod Post by Dave on 12/05/23 at 18:01:29 The torque on the rear axle should not cause the wheel to turn hard. The torque tightens up the inner race and spacers......it should not put stress on the outer races or balls in the bearings. Is there a bit of free play/slack in the brake pedal/cable so that the rear brake is not dragging? If you moved the axle backward without adjusting the brake.......the free play in the brake may be gone. |
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Title: Re: Sneeze Clutch Release Cam & Push Rod Post by TheSneeze on 12/05/23 at 18:29:31 On a side note - I had another batch of cams made. I currently have ~15 in stock. FYI |
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Title: Re: Sneeze Clutch Release Cam & Push Rod Post by LANCER on 12/05/23 at 18:45:55 Thanks for the additional info of your experience before you replaced with the Sneeze cam. Very helpful. |
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Title: Re: Sneeze Clutch Release Cam & Push Rod Post by ThumperPaul on 12/05/23 at 18:49:59 Thanks Dave. I completely loosened the rear brake when I did it. That's not it, but reducing the torque on the axle nut helped. I need to revisit this tomorrow. Thanks Sneeze. I'll message you about getting one. May as well address it while I'm in there. |
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Title: Re: Sneeze Clutch Release Cam & Push Rod Post by ThumperPaul on 12/05/23 at 18:53:27 Lancer, can you please clarify what you mean? |
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Title: Re: Sneeze Clutch Release Cam & Push Rod Post by Dave on 12/06/23 at 03:43:46 3509140C1104133100140D610 wrote:
(I believe he was responding to my bad experience with the stock clutch release cam). |
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Title: Re: Sneeze Clutch Release Cam & Push Rod Post by Dave on 12/06/23 at 03:51:59 4E726F776A7F684A7B6F761A0 wrote:
If the lever on the side of the engine is high.....but still within the marks on the engine case - it is fine. As the clutch wears the lever will move down and need you to add more slack into the clutch cable. However...unless you are really hard on a clutch the Savage clutch wears slowly, and I don't believe anyone has really worn the fiber plates out. (There have been a couple of folks who wore the aluminum surface of the clutch basket and inner hub and those had to be replaced). When you install your Sneeze clutch cam......having the lever toward the top mark when you adjust the rod length is preferable, as it gives you more room for future wear. |
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Title: Re: Sneeze Clutch Release Cam & Push Rod Post by ThumperPaul on 12/06/23 at 05:26:40 Thanks Dave! Very helpful! It’s within the marks and favoring the high side of the engine marks. Virtually the entire arm is still between the marks. I think I’ll skip the longer push rod. Clean up the plates, Barnett springs, and a Sneeze cam. |
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Title: Re: Sneeze Clutch Release Cam & Push Rod Post by Dave on 12/06/23 at 09:02:02 5E627F677A6F785A6B7F660A0 wrote:
Unfortunately......you are likely going to have to make a clutch rod adjustment when you install the Sneezy cam. They are just slightly different and your lever may be outside the proper range with the new release cam. |
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Title: Re: Sneeze Clutch Release Cam & Push Rod Post by ThumperPaul on 12/06/23 at 09:17:25 So we’re kinda back to one of my original questions with a little more info from me. With the arm on the high side and installation of a Sneeze cam release, what length push rod will I need to go with it? I’m sure there is a complicated measurement and calculation that I’m supposed to comprehend and follow. :o |
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Title: Re: Sneeze Clutch Release Cam & Push Rod Post by Dave on 12/06/23 at 09:32:06 003C213924312604352138540 wrote:
I don't think anyone can tell you that - you need to put it together with what you have and see what happens. If the arm is between the marks, you are goo to go. If it is low - you need a shorter rod. If it is high, you need a longer rod. When you start modifying things......not everything is just a "plug and play". |
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Title: Re: Sneeze Clutch Release Cam & Push Rod Post by ThumperPaul on 12/06/23 at 09:41:12 Why did I know that was the answer! Trial and error. Tear it down, put it together, (cross fingers), hope it’s once and done! Otherwise rinse and repeat as needed! |
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Title: Re: Sneeze Clutch Release Cam & Push Rod Post by LANCER on 12/06/23 at 10:13:03 59626F7869657E78636B66790A0 wrote:
(I believe he was responding to my bad experience with the stock clutch release cam).[/quote] ………. Yes, I was responding to Dave’s experience. |
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