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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Piece of dowel rod in cylinder /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1700176698 Message started by ThumperPaul on 11/16/23 at 15:18:18 |
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Title: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/16/23 at 15:18:18 I win the dumbass of the day award!! Trying to find TDC, I broke off a 1/4" round piece of dowel rod into the cylinder threw the spark plug hole! Way to go Paul!! The dowel rod somehow got 'bit' coming around to find TDC. It's about 1/4" round and maybe 3/8"-1/2" long. I almost got lucky fishing it out with a pick and narrow hemostats as it was still visible and kind of still hung up in the spark plug hole. But alas, it broke free and is now floating around on top of the piston somewhere. I've shook and rocked the bike trying to regain visibility, but no luck. I tried a small vacuum but couldn't get good clean suction with the attachment I tried. I can try compressed air, but I think that's just gunna blow it around in circles. Idea>>>Help... ???? Motor is sitting at TDC right now.... 1) get the exhaust valves open and try to blow it out? 2) pour some gas in there and light it on fire? (joking...bad idea) 3) leave it in there (ignore it) and hope it burns up and blows out when I get this bike running? I'm worried about valve, seat, and guide damage if I try this route.. I'm not mechanically inclined enough to pull the head and go through all that. My Clymers manual arrived today and just reading the process gave me a headache. Plus, when Clymers tells you to rotate clockwise when it should be counter-clockwise doesn't instill much confidence in their instructions. The wood is pretty soft and splinters pretty easily (why I couldn't really get it out with the pick and hemostats - it keep chipping away, so I got some out). Joy, joy, joy!!! Reading on the internet, I'm not the first person to do this exact same thing with a dowel rod looking for TDC. I've used a straw in the past without issue, but thought I'd "improve" my tool this time... (dumbass!) |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by Dave on 11/16/23 at 15:34:03 I would not try to run the bike with it in there. If it gets stuck under a valve it could hold it open a bit and the piston could smack the valve on the way up. I would try leaning the bike over to the right side so the spark plug hole is pointing straight up. Then move the piston near the top...but not high enough to trap the dowel between the head and piston. Then pour diesel fuel (or light oil) into the cylinder and float the dowel up....hopefully it will be visible through the spark plug hole and you can grab it with tweezers or your forceps. (Make sure the valves are closed before you fill the cylinder). Once you are done you need to suck the fluid out of the cylinder.....don't be surprised when the engine smokes the next time you start it (be sure to start it up outside). One time my uncle was spraying WD340 into a cylinder before he put the car up for the winter. As he was spraying - the little red tube came loose and went into the cylinder! |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/16/23 at 15:43:58 Thanks Dave. Appreciate the floating it suggestion. I really don't want to try to run it out. The trick is to get it visible thru the plug hole. I've tried level and leaning left and right. I've run out of patience for today. I wonder if the diesel fuel would break it down or swell it up...perhaps helping. or maybe it would soften it up if I end up just taking my chances and leaving it in there. Argh! |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by och on 11/16/23 at 15:55:22 Rent a camera that goes through the spark plug hole to see if its on top of the piston. I like the set it on fire idea. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/16/23 at 16:44:23 Hey Och! It's on top of the piston. I watched it drop in slooooow motion and slide over to the left side... The fire idea! Use my large metal industrial dust pan as a heat shield to protect the wiring and frame above the head, open the exhaust valves to create a flue, add lighter fluid thru plug hole, use a bbq grill flame thrower to ignite, add more lighter fluid as needed, broil at 550 for 10 minutes until estimated well done! Let cool and blow out with compressed air... ;D |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by och on 11/16/23 at 17:01:26 Or just bring the piston down and look with a camera if you can see it? Stick a torch in there and bbq it |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by och on 11/16/23 at 17:02:49 I also own a tool like this, its great for retrieving non magnetic parts. Saved me many a times. http://https://www.bronco6g.com/forum/attachments/51xbrfwa52l-_sx522_-jpg.513105/ |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/16/23 at 18:04:57 That's cool. Wonder if it would fit in the spark plug hole. I might have to shop it. My vertically challenged mother has a similar gadget (but bigger) for grabbing stuff on the top shelf of the pantry. LOL. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by Ruttly on 11/16/23 at 19:02:22 Blow gun , rag , GOGGLES |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by Ruttly on 11/16/23 at 19:04:56 Alien tape on a pencil |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by Armen on 11/16/23 at 19:56:02 Another dowel with a drop of Krazy Glue on the end. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by Dave on 11/17/23 at 03:24:35 I like OCH's idea far better than my "flood the cylinder" idea.......it would be very messy! The trick with this tool would be getting a grip that would be near the end of the dowel....if you grab it in the middle it won;t come out the hole. However.......it likely is the quickest, fastest method even if it takes multiple tries. I still believe you will need to tip the bike over and position the piston so that the dowel falls inline with the spark plug hole.....so that each time you drop i and reach in the dowel has fallen inline with the plug hole. https://www.amazon.com/Flexible-Grabber-Bendable-Reaching-35-4inch/dp/B08D8H1D5X/ref=asc_df_B08D8H1D5X/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=459517313515&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13889648777634603033&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9014420&hvtargid=pla-952818160742&psc=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAu9yqBhBmEiwAHTx5p1KoMB7qoDN9EEFeG333xgj2Aifp8B3WRJ9lUaB9X2WxG6jjUBy6ahoCyfUQAvD_BwE |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by och on 11/17/23 at 04:27:59 043F3225343823253E363B24570 wrote:
This one claims diameter of .99cm, I bought one at autozone a year ago, its probably around 7.5mm so it gets into tighter spots. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by Serowbot on 11/17/23 at 06:04:14 My buddy did this exact same thing on his Harley. It was an expensive fix. Just keep trying... gum or tape on a stick and fish around. Don't give up. Don't drop it! Good luck |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/17/23 at 06:17:24 Thanks everyone and appreciate the sense of humor and knowing I’m not the only dumbass. I’ve tried the gorilla glue on the end of a dowel rod method, but I can’t get it to stick on the end of the piece of dowel to clear through the plug hole. It has to come out vertically as it won’t fit longways. Today is a new day with fresh encouragement!! Before I try again, I’m going for a ride on my other bike!! It’s a beautiful day in Houston! Sorry to all the folks that have to stash your bikes for winter! |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by DragBikeMike on 11/17/23 at 11:45:38 While you are on that ride, look for an old abandoned wood building. Gather up some termites or carpenter ants. Subteranian species are best. Pop four or five of the buggers down your spark plug hole. Wait a few days and your chunk of dowel should be termite poop. Ready to fire up. :D |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by zevenenergie on 11/17/23 at 12:29:06 The way to do this is to take off your saddle. Take out your air filter. Place the piston at the top of the intake stroke (intake valves open) and then place the engine on the left side. And then blow into the suction mouth of the air filter with a leaf blower. You can also attach a thin tube to the vacuum cleaner hose. And then fish through the sparkplug hole. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by och on 11/17/23 at 14:51:48 How to you get the termite poop out? ;D |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/17/23 at 15:46:29 DragBikeMike - Termites are moving up in the rankings! Och - I got one of those grabbers. No luck. Still can’t get the piece directly below the plug hole. Tried compressed air today. Camera arriving from Amazon tomorrow. I’m going to try to suck it out with a piece of 9mm fuel line tightly connected to the shop vac attachment. I’ll keep a couple valves at least partially open so I can get some suction. Tomorrow is another day. Lighter fluid and a torch may move up the rankings if that doesn’t work. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/17/23 at 16:00:06 Zevenenergie - carb is removed. Tried compressed air thru the intake valves. No luck. With as many times as I’ve hand rotated the engine trying different piston and valve positions, I may have smashed it up into pieces. Gotta get a camera in there and take a look around. On a positive note, my intake valves look like new peaking through the intake port! I get to see the inside tomorrow or Sunday. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ohiomoto on 11/17/23 at 17:38:50 Hit that happy button and be done with it! That little dowl with be smashed to bits...or you'll have a bent valve. :o |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ohiomoto on 11/17/23 at 17:47:17 I like the termite and fire suggestions, and I've heard that white liquor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_liquor) dissolves wood. Maybe try that and then hit the happy button. :) |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by SpamyToo on 11/17/23 at 18:31:27 This is what comes to mind... Put termites in the cylinder. Hot glue? Float it. Burn it. Split it up. Probably similar though process as you already had. Edit - ooh a 2nd page of ideas. Mine are all old. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/18/23 at 05:13:42 OhioMoto - you seem kinda comfortable with just firing it up and cross your fingers. Seriously, what kind of odds do you give it of being successful and not damaging valve parts? This is my last resort. I honestly have doubts in my ability to correctly remove the head and reassemble. If I leave myself a trail of breadcrumbs and clues, I’ll still get something wrong. If I end up going this route, I’ll need a real mechanic familiar with our bikes. I haven’t stumbled into one in Houston. It would give me a good reason to go ahead and replace the plug cap, cam chain tensioner, and cam chain. Heck - may as well port and polish, performance cam, bigger valves. Now I’m dreaming…. I have a replica piece of dowel test soaking in Berryman’s B-60 (the strong stuff) to see if it can break it down somewhat. I’ll be in the lab latter to check it out. Really waiting on the camera right now so I can get a look around inside. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by LANCER on 11/18/23 at 11:29:43 One way or the other you need to retrieve that little sucker from its hiding place. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by Dave on 11/18/23 at 12:38:54 Next time you want to use this method to find TDC. Use a plastic drinking straw.....the bend instead of breaking. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/18/23 at 13:16:29 Dave - that’s what I’ve used in the past with success. Dumbass me tried to improve my tool with a dowel rod. I kill me! |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by och on 11/18/23 at 15:46:08 Put some dynamite in there and blow it up? |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by verslagen1 on 11/18/23 at 16:38:38 naw shotgun, 410 will fit right in there. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/18/23 at 18:30:25 Now y’all are getting serious! I like it! I’m almost there! Kaboom! I did get a look at the little sucker with my new endoscope camera. He’s just sitting there leaned up against the left side of the cylinder wall and likes to just hang out there and not get into shooting range! |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by Dave on 11/19/23 at 03:17:38 I am starting to like the shop vac/small tube idea. The tube/hose should be just large enough to fit down the spark plug hole to get the most grip....however smaller hoses will give you a bit more room to move around. Shove the hose down the spark plug hole until it touches the cylinder wall, then move the piston up until it touches the tube.....now all you need to do is get the wood dowel lined up with the tube. You can shove a nylon zip tie or something similar down the hole and wiggle it around to try and move the dowel into position. (That is why I suggested leaning the bike to the right side so the dowel move downhill inline with the spark plug hole). |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/19/23 at 05:38:12 Hey Dave. That’s my try again today. The shop vac was a little too cumbersome, but this Oreck sucks pretty good with an 8mm ID fuel line duct taped to the attachment. The camera comes with a little plastic hook which I may try to rig up with some 2-sided tape. The catch with that is that it has to be small or else it blocks the camera view. As you noted, the real trick is getting the piece where you can get it. I’ve rocked and leaned this bike 147 ways to Friday! I need a couple up big strong friends to hold the bike upside down while I crawl underneath and do the surgery! |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/19/23 at 05:44:07 Little sucker. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by Serowbot on 11/19/23 at 06:04:15 Hey,... you stole my vacuum cleaner!... Good luck This is going to work |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/19/23 at 06:24:46 Hey Serowbot. I stole it from my wife! Then bought her a new one for her birthday! Now me and the old Oreck sleep in the garage together with a case of cheap Bush beer! Something has to work today, or I’m using lighter fluid and fire! |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by zevenenergie on 11/19/23 at 09:58:57 I sure the vacuumcleaner trick works. Especially if you can look through the inlet with that camera to see what you are doing. And if it doesn't work out, you have to look on the bright side. You end up whit a very clean combustion chamber. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by zevenenergie on 11/19/23 at 10:04:51 How are things going? Dit you brake free already? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4Mc-NYPHaQ |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/19/23 at 10:22:53 I give up for today! Gunna watch football. Tomorrow I BUILD FIRE! I watched it roll back and forth 47 times as I rocked the bike back and forth. It was like some ridiculous arcade game where you have to get it to stop in the middle! |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/19/23 at 10:48:18 Total frustration! I optimistically put everything back together except for the saddle, tank, and a couple other items (waiting for a decomp set-up to arrive from Verslagen and a starter o-ring from Och - thanks guys!). |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by och on 11/19/23 at 13:28:10 All this talking about rocking, blowing and sucking - you and the savage are getting pretty intimate. ;D |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by zevenenergie on 11/20/23 at 01:13:34 I thought about it some more. Wood floats. So if you place the piston at TDC when all valves are closed and you fill the combustion chamber with a liquid, the dowel will float in front of the spark plug hole. :) If you then use the vacuum cleaner to suck the dowel out, do not use flammable liquid because then your vacuum cleaner will explode. :D |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by Serowbot on 11/20/23 at 05:47:44 Not sure about that one... might suck a lot of fluid. Could it be that TDC will not allow the wood to stand upright? Maybe BDC would benefit? |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by DragBikeMike on 11/20/23 at 09:15:02 What is the approximate size of the broken piece (diameter x length)? For a vacuum cleaner to work you will need flow. The spark plug hole will not permit sufficient flow. You need valves open to have any chance of sucking the piece out. But the valves need to be open with the piston very near to top dead center (TDC). You can achieve the required condition by jacking valves open with the adjustment screws, but you must not rotate the engine with the valves jacked open. DO NOT ROTATE ENGINE WITH VALVES JACKED OPEN. Position your engine at TDC on the compression stroke. Make sure both rocker arms move right & left to verify that you are on the compression stroke. Then rotate the engine just enough to lower the piston about 1/8" down from TDC. Use the left-hand intake valve adjuster to jack open the left-hand intake valve. DO NOT ROTATE ENGINE WITH VALVES JACKED OPEN. You will be able to open the valve about 8.5mm. It will look like this. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by DragBikeMike on 11/20/23 at 09:16:40 Now jack open the right-hand exhaust valve using the valve adjuster screw. DO NOT ROTATE ENGINE WITH VALVES JACKED OPEN. It will look like this. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by DragBikeMike on 11/20/23 at 09:26:11 You should now have a shot at sucking the remnant out with a vacuum, but it will depend on the size of the wooden piece. The intake valves are bigger so you want to suck from the intake side. You will probably be able to look into the cylinder through the open valves. That assumes you have the carb and exhaust header removed (that would be beneficial if you haven't already done it). You also want the spark plug hole open to achieve the highest airflow possible. You might also be able to open the left-hand exhaust valve a bit too to enhance air flow. You want to use a canister vacuum so you can retrieve the piece to verify removal and make sure there aren't several pieces in there....and....of course post a picture so we can all see. DO NOT ROTATE ENGINE WITH VALVES JACKED OPEN. Regardless of results (success or failure). Get those adjuster screws backed off before you rotate the engine. Of course you must adjust your valves before any attempt to run the engine. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/20/23 at 10:39:57 Thanks for all the time and thought put into this DragBikeMike. It’s futile. It’s not coming back out the plug hole. I said it was about 1/4” diameter, but it’s probably closer to 5/16”. I haven’t even measured the remaining dowel rod for accuracy due to extreme disgust. It barely fit in the hole. The camera is telling me it’s a bit longer than the 3/8-1/2” that I initially thought. Hard to tell and get perspective in the cylinder with the camera. Even if I could get the grabber with thin jaws on it, I’m not very confident I could get it through the hole. Vacuum ain’t gunna work. Right now, I’m inclined to try to soften it with some carb cleaner in the cylinder. Then with no gas or spark, hit the starter button 2-3 seconds at a time and see what happens to the little bastard. When the piston is TDC, how wide is the gap from the top of the piston to the head/valves (compression gap)? Wondering if it will be tight enough to munch it, or if the dowel would have to magically find vertical and get munched that way. I’m beyond frustrated! |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by Surviving Philly on 11/20/23 at 10:52:25 This may not be realistic but following this for entertainment, I think I would try to get two literal chop sticks in there and see if I can orient it in a way it wants to come back out the spark plug hole. It is a Japanese bike after all. At what point do you just decide to pull the head? |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/20/23 at 11:37:01 SurvivingPhilly, Forceps or this grabber tool with thin grabbers won't fit and also allow room to get it thru the hole. Chop Stix ain't gunna work either. Plus chop stix are just more wood that would probably decide to break off in there too. I've read the technical posts here and Clymer's manual. I'm not mechanically up to the job of a top end "tear" down. And this bike isn't worth the cost of taking it to a shop. Even if I did decide to take it to a shop, I don't know a mechanic I trust to know the nuances of this bike. They'd probably f-it up worse and charge me a small fortune for the F-job! I read some thread on this site that a Suzuki dealership mechanic couldn't even install the dreaded plug cap correctly. And I want to trust them with a complete top end job??? Screw that... |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by verslagen1 on 11/20/23 at 11:40:43 not a bad idea, but let's think chop sticks for beginners. and they'll need to be thin, 2 1/8" music wires and wrap a rubber band around them. position the rubber band so it'll end up at the spark plug hole when fully inserted for maximum movement. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ohiomoto on 11/20/23 at 11:54:33 The happy button is your path to happiness... or, sadness if the valves are open!! ;)
But, it might be possible to make the wood softer (https://woodcrafterscorner.com/does-soaking-wood-make-it-easier-to-carve). I'm not recommending this, you should probably just pop the head off (or get some termites (https://www.carolina.com/termites/termites-soldiers-living-pack-of-12/143730.pr)). |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/20/23 at 12:10:30 OhioMoto, I have a lab test going on. A replica piece of the donor dowel rod is soaking in Berryman B60 carb/fuel system cleaner. After 2 days, it is starting to marinate and get slightly softer. It's not real hard wood. It's maybe soft pine consistency and the wood grain runs lengthwise. I can split it/splinter it lengthwise fairly easily with my fingers/finger nails. Agree - more worried about the valves and seats than the piston. Is white liquor like Bacardi? Do I drink it or put it in the cylinder? Seriously - I don't want to put water and/or acid (or base) in there... Even if I decide to use carb cleaner, I will want to change the oil after. Water and acid or base don't seem like something I want to try. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ohiomoto on 11/20/23 at 12:23:33 But a cracked piston or bent rod will ruin your day in a hurry!! The fact that our resident experts haven't commented on this possibility makes me think it is a bad idea. haha |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/20/23 at 13:11:07 I agree it's a bad idea. I'm all out of good ideas and trying things. Find somebody to remove the head and cylinder = expensive. Take my chances and maybe get lucky. If it craters, find somebody to remove the head and cylinder = expensive + more new parts. OR, just sell the bike as a project or for parts. Argh!! |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by DragBikeMike on 11/20/23 at 13:36:37 Why don't you at least try jacking the valves open like I suggested? With the piston up very close to TDC I bet you could actually get a look see at that chunk of christmas tree (specially if you removed the intake manifold). It doesn't cost anything and its an easy job to jack the valves open. Nothin to lose as long as you don't rotate the engine with the valves jacked open. A 5/16" dowel should be about .312" diameter. I think you could get the intake valve open at least .340". It's close, but seems like it would be worth a try as long as you don't rotate the engine with the valves jacked open. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/20/23 at 13:52:40 I don't know why the parts grabber didn't work. I'd use a pipe cleaner to get it right under the spark plug hole and grab it. Shape the pipe cleaner into a little hook. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by Surviving Philly on 11/20/23 at 20:05:23 If you spray the wood with starter fluid, turn it into a brittle piece of charcoal by then burning it, break it up by mashing a chopstick around through the spark plug hole, remove the intake and header, and have a friend put hands over those openings providing some suction, you might be able to get the ashes/ tiny charcoal bits out with a shop vac. This is my real suggestion -- although I did just get back from the bar :-X. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/20/23 at 20:22:36 DBM - How am I going to see or do anything through the valve opening? I won't be able to see the piston. I know it won't cost me anything but I don't see how it's going to work. And I'm not capable to do a top end job and tearing it down and reassembling (or I'd do that). I can't get the darn thing to sit still under the plug hole. The grabber could probably grab it, BUT it has to come out the hole vertically. This is like that game "Operation" wearing a blindfold. It's about to get some lighter fluid. Soak good. Light. Do it again. Do it again. Make charcoal and vacuum. Then change the oil to flush out any lighter fluid that flows into the crankcase past the piston rings. I'm out of good ideas. Fishing it out ain't happening... |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by DragBikeMike on 11/21/23 at 00:58:49 Paul, I'm not suggesting you try and remove the broken piece through the spark plug hole. That hole is way too small. But the intake port is quite large, and each intake valve is 33mm in diameter. When the intake valves are fully open you can look right into the combustion chamber and cylinder. Especially if the intake manifold is removed. I suggested you position the piston very close to TDC, then jack open the intake valve. I believe you should be able to get that valve open at least 8.5mm, maybe even more. I suggested the left-hand intake since your bike will be on the side stand. With the valve jacked open, I think there is a good chance you will be able to see the wood piece through the intake port and open valve. If you then jack open the right-hand exhaust valve, it should permit good cross flow through the cylinder if you suck through the intake port with a good, powerful cannister vacuum. If the spark plug is removed and the exhaust valve is open, you might be able to get enough airflow across the top of the piston to drag the little wooden chunk out through the open intake valve. I never suggested that you try and get it out through the spark plug hole. You might even find that the process works better if you plug the spark plug hole and jack open both exhaust valves. You will have to play around with it. It might also turn out that access is better through the exhaust side, or that it's easier to see into the cylinder through the exhaust since it exits off the right-hand side of the cylinder head. When the valves are open you can see into the cylinder and combustion chamber pretty good, certainly better than through the spark plug hole. I think it's worth a try. I also don't think you should be worried about removing the cylinder head. Best way to learn is just do it. It's not like you have to rush. Take your time, ask plenty questions, post lots of pics, and feel great when you are all finished and have a good engine. If you break it, no big deal. As I recall, you picked the scooter up for almost nothing. The knowledge & skill you gain will be worth the money you spend. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by zevenenergie on 11/21/23 at 03:54:31 I know how desperate you can become when something like this goes wrong. The tension can be very high. And how easily things escalate. So first of all I want to say; take your time. And maybe you can take another look at this: The spark plug hole is in the center of a dome. http://https://i.imgur.com/hAEYkTYm.png Now look at the 1st drawing: When you let water flow through the inlet, the piece of wood is brought in front of the spark plug hole. If there is a constant flow of water, you are able to use an iron wire to manipulate the wood so that it can pass through the spark plug hole. http://i.imgur.com/tuoaJxhm.png (https://imgur.com/tuoaJxh) I would make something that allows you to attach the garden hose to the inlet, so that you don,t have to pay attention to it. You can also use the vacuum. You can make a bucket with 2 holes in the lid so that you can suck up water whit out getting the vacuum cleaner wet. http://https://i.imgur.com/ILMCwK0l.png You can explain to some children what is going on. They really like that kind of challenge . You can then sit comfortably on a chair with a beer. [smiley=beer.gif] You can also turn it into a competition with a prize. :) A variation on this theme could be to let water flow through the spark plug hole and push the inlet valve open as Drag bike mike brilliantly suggests. Once the wood is out, reassemble everything and go for a long ride. [smiley=thumbsup.gif] |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/21/23 at 05:14:05 Thanks guys. And you’re right Mike, I should give my skills a shot at removing the head and exploring given I don’t have much money at stake. I will try working through the intake (larger valves). My thought is that the valve stem will cut the valve opening diameter in roughly half. Thereby not allowing enough room to get it out. I knew you meant trying to get it out the valve opening and not thru the plug hole. Floating it has some merit, but whatever way I try, the little sucker has to be grabbed lengthwise to extract it thru whatever opening might work. Learning to do a top end tear down and reassembly may be on my bucket list. Also gives me a good opportunity to swap the cam chain tensioner and plug cap. Obviously lighter fluid and fire is a bad joking idea. My luck would be that the lighter fluid would seep past the rings into the crankcase and then I’d have a big ass fire and explosion! RUD - rapid unplanned disassembly! |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by Serowbot on 11/21/23 at 05:48:32 Another thought... try a dental tool. Pointy pokey bits on each end. Stab it! |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by zevenenergie on 11/21/23 at 06:45:39 If you could light the wood, and you had a bottle of oxygen at your disposal, you would effortlessly burn the wood to ashes in a few minutes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7gBx3KwmQ8 |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/21/23 at 09:30:27 Serowbot - Good idea that I tried and failed. I tried my wife's dental tool and I tried several different picks. That's how I managed to chip off a few pieces, but it's also how I ended up knocking it all the way in the cylinder when is was only snagged in the spark plug hole. Zevenenergie - FIRE!! Good thing I don't have an oxygen tank laying around! I also snapped into reality that lighter fluid and fire is a really bad idea - the fluid would seep past the piston rings into the crankcase with oil and kaboom (or at least a big nasty oil fire as sometimes seen in the Gulf of Mexico). |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by zevenenergie on 11/21/23 at 12:33:53 I have been working in metal since I was 16, so I often work with acetylene and oxygen for welding. And know what oxygen can do. You only have to walk into a metal workshop and explain it and they immediately understand what the intention is. I often use oxygen to remove thick layers of paint from metal and even thick layers of rust fly off if you use a flame with a surplus of oxygen. So don't think that I found this video and came up with this tip. I deliberately looked it up to show you how oxygen works. It,s a realy good tip. If you can find someone whit a welding set. http://https://i.imgur.com/sLT1vT5m.png |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by DragBikeMike on 11/21/23 at 19:06:54 I implore you, and everyone else on this forum, DO NOT EVER ATTEMPT TO INJECT PURE OXYGEN INTO YOUR ENGINE. Using an Oxy Acetylene torch with a cutting tip to burn off paint & rust is a lot different from injecting oxygen into an enclosed vessel with combustible stuff like oil, residual fuel, etc. An oxygen fire is almost impossible to extinguish. Do some searches on Google. This is a quote from Martek Marine Article Understanding the Dangers of Oxygen. "Oxygen-fueled fires are ferocious and more difficult to put out, as they burn hotter than other chemical fires. Almost any material will burn vigorously in oxygen including rubber, silicone and even metals. Oxygen is so volatile that even in small quantities it poses a risk to health and becomes potentially hazardous. Even an increase of 3% of oxygen in ambient air can pose a significant threat of fire or explosion." |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by DragBikeMike on 11/21/23 at 19:23:19 To elaborate, another quote from Health and Safety Executive article, Take Care with Oxygen. "Never use oxygen in equipment not designed for it. Many serious accidents have been caused by using oxygen instead of other gasses such as compressed air or nitrogen. Oxygen can react explosively with oils and greases. People have been injured or even killed when pumps, engines, tyres and pressure equipment have been blown apart by the explosion. Oxygen can also cause other materials to ignite spontaneously. The resulting fire can cause damage to equipment and injury to people." Please, don't try to inject oxygen into your cylinder. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by zevenenergie on 11/22/23 at 00:16:21 I see that as the same warning that you should never leave the key of your three-jaw chuck in the lathe, with life-threatening consequences. Reality: It just falls to the ground. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWN3YLcXt0I The only practical danger with oxygen is that you have to be careful not to let it get into your clothes. And that you should not lubricate your oxygen reduction valve and meters with oil. The tip is not to hang a cutting torch in your engine. The tip is to light the wood and let some oxygen flow into your combustion chamber. That space can withstand some heat. It won,t be intense. Just an eazy burn. Use your whits. It might not be a good idea if you have no experience with acetylene welding equipment. But I wouldn't turn my back on it. Unless you are willing to open the engine. I think it is the only sensible tip in this topic that actually leads to result. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by Dave on 11/22/23 at 03:52:53 I don't support burning it out.....or trying to dissolve the wood with any chemical - both of those methods are likely to be harmful to the cast iron cylinder bore and/or piston. How about taking off the exhaust header, and then rotating the engine until the exhaust valves are open a fair amount....but the piston is still up near the top as far as possible to reduce the volume. Then take the shop vac hose and put it on the "blow" side - and place the hose on the exhaust port. The blowing air will go into the cylinder and out the spark plug hole, and you can take your pipe cleaner and wiggle it around and try to get the wood dowel to get picked up by the air flow and blown against the spark plug hole. "IF" it does get blown up against the hole - leave the shop vac on and try to grab the dowel with the forceps and maneuver it out. I realize the hole is small diameter and the threads are long.......but maybe you will get lucky! |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/22/23 at 05:18:24 The oxygen idea is a moot point for me. I don’t have that stuff and I’m not asking anyone that does to do such a thing. Fire and any accelerant is off the table. I may try Mike’s idea of jacking open the valves and see if I can blow or suck it out thru a valve opening instead of the plug hole. Assuming that fails, I will attempt to start the bike with the sucker in there and see if I get lucky. If not, I’ll be doing an unskilled top end rebuild. It’ll sound better to friends and people later when I say I installed new performance valves, cam, cam chain tensioner, plug cap, and piston. That sounds much better than I tore it down to extract a chunk of wood in the cylinder that some dumbass dropped down in there. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/22/23 at 05:37:49 The headline might read something like…. “Small piece of wooden dowel rod takes on smashing metal piston, 4 valves, a cylinder head, sparking fire and air/fuel mixture and loses.” I only have to edit the last word if the result is the opposite. Darn dowel rod has to lose this epic battle!! Rock, paper, scissors!! |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by zevenenergie on 11/22/23 at 08:01:48 Normally I would agree with replacing the camshaft anyway. But since you dropped the dowel in your combustion chamber, you've lost any sense of decision-making dignity. ;) You simply go to a construction site and use their overhead crane to turn the bike upside down and continues to fiddle with a wire until the dowel is out. You put it in a supit way you get it out a stupit way. And that's the last thing I want to hear about it. >:( |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by Serowbot on 11/22/23 at 09:58:57 Call "The Rock",.. ask him to come over and shake the bike upside down... if the Rock isn't available,... call Dave... :-? |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by DragBikeMike on 11/22/23 at 11:39:35 It seemed to me that it might be beneficial to all of us to try a simple mockup. I put a piston into a cylinder, positioned it just shy of TDC, installed a head assembly, and tried several variations of jacked open valves. It took all of about 30 minutes. Should require less effort on your bike since it's all assembled and doesn't require scrounging up parts. Here you see the intake valves jacked all the way open. It took 13 turns on the adjuster screws. I believe the pitch on those screws is 0.75mm so 13 turns would have opened the valves about .380". Should be enough. I suspect you could probably go to 14 turns safely, but 13 should easily be enough. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by DragBikeMike on 11/22/23 at 11:41:13 Same drill on the exhaust valves. It also took 13 turns from zero clearance to flush with top of rocker arm. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by DragBikeMike on 11/22/23 at 11:42:34 Here is the view through the exhaust port. You can see into the combustion chamber and cylinder pretty darned good. I'm shining a light through the intake port. It illuminates the combustion chamber just right. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by DragBikeMike on 11/22/23 at 11:43:39 Here is the view through the intake port. It is a pretty good view IMO. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by DragBikeMike on 11/22/23 at 11:46:20 If you have the bike on the side stand it should be fairly easy to move the wooden piece down the piston to the left had side of the combustion chamber. As you can see from this picture, you will have a decent shot at removal. The top of the piston is in plain view and it's the freeway of love runnin past that valve. You can do this. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by Dave on 11/22/23 at 12:48:35 DragBikeMike may be onto something. Remove the header and carb, jack open the intake and exhaust valves and then move the piston up as high as it will go in the cylinder (get the piston at TDC so the cam is not trying to open/close the valves. Then then use your shop vac to blow into the exhaust port. The intake valves have a larger size - so that may the direction to try and blow it out. You can try using the spark plug hole and your pile cleaner or other bendy device to try and shove the dowel around into the air flow. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by DragBikeMike on 11/22/23 at 14:08:16 DO NOT ROTATE ENGINE WITH VALVES JACKED OPEN. Position the engine at TDC on compression stroke before you jack open the valves. Once the piece is removed, back off the adjusters before attempting to rotate the engine. If you try to rotate the engine with valves jacked open you will break something. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ohiomoto on 11/22/23 at 20:13:53 The way I see it, DBM's method would have on the path of pulling the head which is what we all know is what should really happen if you fail to remove it through a hole. The happy button will surely leave you sad and it could easily lead to piston or rod damage. The termite idea would probably work. They need to eat and they will die when they run out of food. Then you just stick a spark plug in there and incinerate them. Poof done! |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by zevenenergie on 11/23/23 at 02:03:19 This topic is really interesting and we have come across so many good tips. I am a big supporter of the natural approach, so I would first try out termites. Maybe you could buy them in a pet store. On the other hand, Dave (Drag bike Mike) also has a point. I am too shy to impose my methods, but they are the best. I think it's all in the hands of Tumperpaul and his decisiveness now. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/23/23 at 04:54:15 Thanks guys. With the time spent by all of you, one of you gurus could have pulled the head, extracted the chunk and reassembled. I envy y’all’s knowledge and abilities!! Thank you very much for helping me. DBM - how much do I need to back off the adjuster screws without them falling out and ending up in some undesirable place? Also finding TDC on the compression stoke is what got me here in the first place. I know how to find the top and use the timing marks, but knowing if I’m on the compression stroke has always been a bit elusive to me…. All the valves should be closed and I “should” be able to wiggle the rocker arms a little (what if they are just way out of clearance spec and I get a false positive). I think the compression stroke at TDC is right AFTER the intake valves open and close. I clearly have limited experience and skills. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by Serowbot on 11/23/23 at 05:59:13 Sorry you missed it Tech Section Find TDC... the easy way... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1278347767 Quote:
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/26/23 at 12:15:28 Thanks Serowbot. I have read this before and in other sources. I still have a hard time identifying when both intake and exhaust valves are closed by looking at the both sets of rocker arms. What's really dumb of me is that the dowel rod down the plug hole really doesn't help (aside from seeing it come to top and go down). |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/27/23 at 05:44:48 Thanks again DragBikeMike! After a weekend off and no fiddling around, I’m going to try jacking open the intake valves (at least the left). And thanks for the caution about not letting the engine crank move or turn over. Clarification: For engine position. Find TDC on compression stroke first. Then lower the piston 1/8th. Would this be about a 45° rotation of the crank or more like 90° rotation past TDC on the compression stroke? I want to set this once correctly so I don’t mess up and try to turn the engine in a brain fart moment. Then I’m going to mix suggestions to get decent air flow in the cylinder. I’m going to use my air compressor to push air thru the plug hole and a canister vacuum to suck at the valve intake (manifold is removed already). My hope is to blow/suck that piece up to the valves. Perhaps getting it stuck and wedged between the valve and valve seat. Then, carefully extract it from that stuck position with some long bent forceps. I don’t think it’s magically going to get sucked out with all the different angles and shapes (that would be too lucky). It’s going to need some mechanical help to make the final journey out. to think positively! Any additional suggestions before I give this a shot? Thanks. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by DragBikeMike on 11/27/23 at 10:13:07 Paul, I suspect you might be able to leave it at TDC, but in the event the valves touch the piston before you get them open far enough, the 1/8 “ additional clearance might be necessary. You should be able to achieve that with only about 10 degrees of rotation. You want that piston as far up as practical so you have the best access to the wood piece. I think you can see from my pictures that the visual access is pretty good, and it looks to me like you will be able to fish it out. Looks to me like having all 4 valves jacked open is also an excellent option. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by zevenenergie on 11/27/23 at 12:44:52 023E233B2633240637233A560 wrote:
Rubber side up. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/27/23 at 13:21:49 Position of the timing mark about 80° past TDC on the compression stroke lowered the piston about 1” in the jug (give or take). Now time to remove the intake valve adjuster nut and give the adjuster screw exactly 13 turns in until flush with the rocker arm. Then no touching anything (socket wrench removed from the crank). |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/27/23 at 17:09:46 I jacked open the left intake valve and tried today. It's not coming out. I'm going to take a break and step back. Dual exhaust and turbo charger, but no spark or fuel. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by DragBikeMike on 11/28/23 at 00:04:47 Paul, IMO you have the piston positioned too far down the hole. You want the piston very close to TDC and enough valves jacked open so you can illuminate the combustion chamber. You can see from my pics that all four valves jacked open provides good visual access. If you are positioned at 80 degrees after TDC, then I assume your timing mark on the alternator rotor is close to the 12 o-clock position. I think you should back off the valve adjuster 13 to 14 turns, and then rotate the timing mark clockwise until your timing mark is either lined up with the mark on the case or just a few degrees past the mark on the case. Once the crank is repositioned close to TDC, jack open all four valves so you can get a good look see. Shine a flashlight in one port while looking into the other port. You should be able to clearly see the wood piece. Once you can see the wood piece it should be fairly east to fish it out. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/28/23 at 05:34:32 You’re about right, DBM. The mark was pointing at about the 1 o’clock position and the piston was down more like 1.5”. At 13 turns in on the adjuster screw (from 0 clearance), and flush with the rocket arm, it didn’t look to create a wide enough opening for it to squeeze by. I would have been happy for it to just get stuck in the gap and then yank it through with forceps. It’s freaking me out a bit jacking open the valves. I can just see me dropping the adjuster nuts down into never never land. I’m clumsy and unlucky like that. I may give it another shot today with the piston only lowered a bit. Vacuum is pretty strong, but not strong enough from the distance to the piston. On a positive note, I did get some good practice checking and setting valve clearance on all 4 valves. I’m nicely between .004-.005”. I did this after I put the adjuster and nut back in approximate place and rotated around 1.8ish turns to TDC on the compression stroke. I have several photos with my phone and the endoscope camera, but resizing and posting here is a pain and won’t really help much. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/28/23 at 05:51:30 It looks bigger in the photo than when I last saw it in person hung in the plug hole. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by zevenenergie on 11/28/23 at 06:12:35 Ahh now i see why you don,t get it out. You should not yous a fexible tub on your vacuum but a harder matrial. like plastic or metal and whit an as big diameter as possible. And when you have a bite and are almost at the hole, you have to make small back and forth movements so that the wood can arrange itself until you get the end. and then it can come out. One of the valves must be open. And the piston perhaps halfway through its stroke. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/28/23 at 07:18:28 I did all that Z. This is just 1 photo of 1 style of attempts. Mike is right about where the piston needs to be if this is going to work. However, jacking all 4 valves open to “see” would create a maze of valves for the chunk to navigate thru. I’ve got good suction with the 1 valve jacked open and the spark plug hole open. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by Dave on 11/28/23 at 09:15:25 That thing is monstrous! The piston is 94mm (3.7")....no wonder it doesn't want to come out! |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/28/23 at 09:31:00 I know! Right! It’s an odd angle, but doing some rough a2+b2=c2 math and eyeballing if it’s over half the length of the radius, the dabgum thing might be 2” long! It only looked like about 1” when it was hanging by a thread in the plug hole! I may just hit the happy button. You still got that performance modified head laying around? Lol. Do you do free delivery and installation? lol. I’m getting a bit more wacko that normal right now! |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ohiomoto on 11/28/23 at 09:36:40 At some point, you may just want to pull the head. For anyone who ever wants to confirm TDC, use a screwdriver because the handle won't allow it to fall into the cylinder. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by DragBikeMike on 11/28/23 at 10:09:02 WOW! That is waaaaaay bigger than you described. I don’t think it’s comin out of there through an open valve. The cylinder also looks like it’s gettin scratched up from all the fishing expeditions with various tools. If you keep at it, you could ruin the cylinder. Pretty good picture. What endoscope are you using? As I recall, you previously said it was about 5/16” diameter. That looks more like 3/8” or 7/16”. Awfully long too. It doesn’t look like it can make the corners. You have come this far. You must have learned a few things. As mentioned earlier, you got the scooter cheap. Time to put on your big boy pants and remove the cylinder head. No one can say you didn’t give it your best shot. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/28/23 at 10:41:36 Yeah, it's a freakin' log!! Here's a link to the endoscope camera. It works well. When using the mirror attachment to see side angles, it loses quality and requires frequent cleaning with alcohol and a lint free cloth (no surprise given the hell I put it thru). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0C4FBM6GV?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/28/23 at 11:28:00 With the camera, and the piston at the bottom of the stroke - you don't think you could capture that with a parts grabber? |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/28/23 at 16:01:50 Gary. No. You have a cool bike! |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by SpamyToo on 11/28/23 at 16:13:33 Have a powerful enough laser to burn wood? I do, so I thought maybe if you could shoot it through a hole and hit it that you could get it burnt up a bit to break up. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by och on 11/28/23 at 19:54:08 What about a bbq lighter, can you stick it in there and burn it? |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by zevenenergie on 11/29/23 at 08:35:32 And ad a littel oxygen... :) |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/29/23 at 14:51:56 I'm ready to start a wager.... Here's the bet... Hit the happen button and see what happens.... Wager A: YOU bet $20 the engine will suffer severe damage like bent/broken valves and/or related components. Wager B: I bet the bike won't suffer any damage. My wager amount is my repair cost (a real mechanic and parts) if I'm wrong. This is like a twisted go-fund-me with a wager. Your $20 bet won't win you any money; but you will win the absolute knowledge that Little Woody can beat Big Bad Metal. I need about 50 bets against me! Bring it on!! I'll be nice... If I win, I won't keep your $20! Y'all want to know! You want to see me hit the happy button!! It's like watching a train wreck! |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by zevenenergie on 11/30/23 at 02:23:42 3509140C1104133100140D610 wrote:
I'm 100% sure it will cause serious damage to your engine. This block of wood is so large that even if you remove the cylinder head, you cannot get it out of the cylinder. You can save yourself and others the trouble of having them deposit $20 into your account, which you then have to deposit back, by making that video and posting it here. I'm not going to watch, because there wil be nothing to see, the engine will probably not even start because your valves wil bent immediately after the first revolution.(If the engine can turn over at all) If you're going to get crazy, order this for 20 dollars (maybe two bottles) and burn that wood. https://www.amazon.nl/GOX-stimuleren-sportgebruik-allergie%C3%ABn-vermoeidheid/dp/B00BARPGMO/ref=asc_df_B00BARPGMO/?tag=nlshogostdde-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=430624048300&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14285296419932217853&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9064452&hvtargid=pla-860518215767&psc=1&mcid=9911e8d0b8e335c8a232c7cd5cf265f8 I think that if you want to raise money to sponsor yourself, I think people would rather see something that is uncontroversial and has a real chance of success. I want to see that engine run again. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by Dave on 11/30/23 at 04:23:21 I am not sure what will happen if you put the valves back into adjustment and hit the starter button.......I believe the piston and dowel will come to an abrupt stop as the piston approaches TDC - you won't get even 1 revolution of the crank. There is only the thickness of three dimes between the top of the piston and the flat surface of the head....I suspect that when the piston heads up on a compression stroke the wood will prevent the piston from going over TDC. I don't believe the starter has enough power to bend or break anything....it will just come to a sudden stop. "IF" the piston is headed upward on the exhaust stroke - there is a chance the wood could hit the exhaust valves as the piston and wood dowel head upward. Once again the piston and dowel will come to a stop - but there is a chance the momentum and starter have enough inertia to bend a valve and damage the rocker and/or cam. What is your mechanical ability to correct this? The Savage is not a difficult engine to work on and a manual is a must - however there are a lot of parts and it is easy to mistakenly turn the crankshaft nut the wrong way, lose the dowel that drives the oil pump, install the oil filter backwards, strip the head cover threads, etc. If you have never had an engine apart before......I am not sure that an upper end removal and replacement on the Savage is the place to start. Folks on this forum can help - but ultimately you are the one who has to get it done. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by zevenenergie on 11/30/23 at 05:59:30 714A4750414D56504B434E51220 wrote:
I tend to agree with you because of your vast knowledge of engines. But in this case not Mike. When the piston is almost at the top and the closer you approach the TDC, the force you can exert with the piston is enormous. Enough to bend the valves. Due to the relatively large rotation of the crankshaft compared to the small displacement of the piston near TDC. Industrial flywheel presses are based on this entire principle. I think you can even bent a valve by hand by turning the flywheel. Tumperclone ....Have you fallen for the temptation to press the start button? :o |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/30/23 at 06:07:55 Thanks Dave. You have outlined all of my concerns and what would probably happen if I hit the happy button. I am by no means an engine mechanic. I can do and will attempt most tuning items and ancillary things (brakes, chains, oil, filters, cables, etc). The last time I kinda opened an engine was in 1980 on my 1974 Trans Am. I was 16, first car, and my grandfather and I replaced the timing chain (it didn’t exactly go smoothly, but we ultimately got it right without destroying the engine). I have a car mechanic friend that has offered to help. His experience with bikes is limited, but he’s younger, braver, better memory and eyesight than me. Will try to do this in the frame. I’ve read DBM’s and Oldfeller’s posts and got a headache but they are very helpful. I need to compile a list of stuff needed: 1) head gasket 2) clutch side engine cover gasket 3) plug cap seal 3a) will regular Permatex Ultra Black work? Or what flavor do I need? 4) Verslagen cam chain tensioner (do it while I’m in there) 5) Do I need new O-rings somewhere (which ones)? 6) Loctite? What flavor and which bolts/studs get it 7) some kind of stud extraction tool like DBM made or buy one. I guess the double-nut trick won’t work 8) exhaust gasket (what size if I just buy generic off Amazon or somewhere) 8) What else? Pre-Steps 1) roll Woody into the driveway (or yard), apply engine degreaser to the head and work area (with spark plug in and everything buttoned up like intake and valve check covers), clean up as best as possible, hit it again with brake parts cleaner. Is it safe to carefully use a pressure washer with a standard tip (not the cut your toe off tip). Or just use a regular hose and sprayer attachment? 2) remove exhaust 3) drain oil Clarification/Corrections: I feel like the Clymer manual could be my friend and worst enemy at the same time. Pics and discussions on this forum seem better and more trustworthy. 1) is Clymer wrong throughout about rotating “clockwise”? Everything should be counterclockwise, dirrection the bike rolls forward, right? 2) what else do they make harder than it should be? What is the valve cover gasket made of (is it reusable)? Might it be possible to raise the head about 1" while it's still trapped on the studs, reach into the gap with my sausage fingers and grab the wood, and then bolt it back together without a new gasket? Obviously trying to avoid removing the studs and/or taking the engine out of the frame. I’m trying to wrap my head around all this and will also talk to my mechanic friend today. Thanks! |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by Dave on 11/30/23 at 15:40:50 You won't be able to just lift the cylinder head up and set it back down. The multi-ply headgasket will come apart.....it is a one time use affair and you will need to clean off the coating from the sealing surface of the head and cylinder before you install a new head gasket. I prefer to use the Suzukibond rather than any RTV sealant that you get at the parts store. The Suzukibond sets up slower and gives you more time to work - plus for me I get the added benefit that the tube lasts for several years. With the store bought RTV products once you puncture the seal on the lid - the hole tube goes bad in just a few weeks/months. https://www.partzilla.com/product/suzuki/99000-31100?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAgqGrBhDtARIsAM5s0_kkSVaglV9fZLHx39JqGLTjHAYCpLMGdAHLJbpYzoLIXqlPEZhrqXsaArXqEALw_wcB If you just do the head and leave the cylinder alone - you will need a head gasket, the funny shaped O-ring that goes between the head and the head cover, and a Verslagen head plug, and 4 new copper washers for the head studs (unless you anneal and sand the old ones smooth). You likely can reuse the O-rings on the valve inspection ports and the exhaust gasket.....and the little sealing washers on the head cover bolts. For the bottom end you would need the clutch side case gasket. There are sealing washers on those screws as well that can probably be reused. You had mentioned that you would likely add the Verslagen tensioner upgrade. You might also consider the stronger Sneezy clutch cam upgrade - that would also require you to address the length of the clutch push rod.....it seems the stock one won't be the correct length when you change the clutch cam. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 11/30/23 at 15:55:11 Thanks Dave. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by DragBikeMike on 12/01/23 at 19:50:22 Paul, to remove the cylinder studs, you can use a M9 x 1.25 nut that is modified. Order genuine Suzuki part number 09159-09004 (which is piece 24 of the cylinder head parts fiche). If you can find a M9 x 1.25 nut at your local hardware supplier that will work also. Saw all the way through one wall of the nut, and about half-way through the other side. This picture shows the saw cuts. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by DragBikeMike on 12/01/23 at 19:53:13 Then use a long-nose vicegrip to pinch the nut onto the stud. You have to really grab that nut tight and pinch it ultra-hard onto the portion of the stud that protrudes above the cylinder head. This would be the type of vicegrip required. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by DragBikeMike on 12/01/23 at 20:06:54 You only need to remove the right-rear stud to provide sufficient room to get the head off with the engine in the frame, but the more studs you remove the easier it will be. The right-rear is mandatory, add the left-rear to make things a bit easier. If you can't break the studs loose, you will have to pull the engine or at least drop it down in the frame. I suspect you have already read this old post, but in the event that you haven't, here's the link. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1609889036/0 Before you reinstall the studs, use a long metal tube and a vacuum cleaner to suck out the oil that has accumulated in the stud holes in the engine case. I find that a steel brake line works great. They are available at any auto parts store. Just cut the flare off one end. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 12/02/23 at 06:06:37 Thanks Mike. Yes, I read your post and saw your cut-nut and other extractor gadget (reminded me of a flywheel puller tool). Is there not an extractor tool (socket) that already exists and can be bought? Removing the right rear stud is a must (okay, got it). Can the head be lifted off with the other 3 studs still in place? Can the head clear the frame especially at the left rear stud still in place? I’m guessing the left rear stud should come out too for ease of reassembly. Vacuuming out the stud holes. Have not thought about that…. Does 100% have to be cleared out? When reinstalling the studs, I’m guessing they get some loctite? I haven’t read that far ahead. Tips for timing chain? I think I read in Clymer about rotating the engine clockwise?? My trust in the Clymer manual is about nil. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by DragBikeMike on 12/02/23 at 10:15:15 Paul, over time the threaded holes in the engine case fill with oil. If you try to reinstall the stud with that oil in the threaded hole, the stud hydraulic locks. So, you really need to get the majority of the oil out of the holes. The brake tubing works great. You do not want to set these studs with Loctite. If you did that, you would not be able to get them back out without removing the head. So, when you reinstall the studs, a very light coat of oil on the threads is all that is required. The residual oil left in the threaded hole will probably be sufficient. The four studs are all a different length. The right-rear is the longest, the next longest is the left-rear, then the next longest is left-front, and finally the right-front is shortest. If you remove the two rear studs, there’s more than enough room to get the head off. You should also remove the rear cam chain guide. That requires that you remove the clutch and pull the guide out from the bottom. You will be doin the Verslagy mod so that should be no problem. As Dave suggested, you should also install the Sneezy release cam while you are in there. IMO, any tools you buy, anything you break, any scraped knuckles, frustration, yellin & screamin, pulled hair, headaches, frustration, etc. are all money in the bank. There are few things more valuable than experience (good or bad). As far as a commercial stud extractor is concerned, Google should tell the story. I’m gonna see what I can find. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 12/02/23 at 11:02:38 Thanks Mike. This just keeps getting better. Pulling the clutch to remove the rear cam chain guide. I guess I missed that part of the surgery. Looking at stud extractors; they all seem big and may not work in close quarters. That's my guess as to why they aren't suggested somewhere. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by verslagen1 on 12/02/23 at 11:31:48 I don't see why you won't just pull the engine? Not much more work and everything is easier after that. |
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Title: Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder Post by ThumperPaul on 12/02/23 at 12:05:16 I might, but I don't feel like dealing with the dang boat anchor. |
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