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Message started by zevenenergie on 09/16/23 at 10:21:48

Title: Worn drive shaft.
Post by zevenenergie on 09/16/23 at 10:21:48

Hi guys,

Today I bought a engine with a worn drive shaft.( It had 16,000 miles on the clock)

http://https://i.imgur.com/TN8BsMGm.jpg

http://https://i.imgur.com/gTptVdFm.jpg

I bought it for the parts, but otherwise it appears to be in optimal condition.
So I'm thinking of replacing the axle and keeping the engine as a spare.

My question is:
Is it possible to remove the axle without splitting the engine or does it have to be taken apart completely?

http://https://i.imgur.com/gTptVdFh.jpg

Title: Re: Worn drive shaft.
Post by Fast 650 on 09/16/23 at 12:03:00

If you replace that shaft I hope you have excellent mechanical skills, a well stocked tool box, a good service manual, and lots of patience. To replace that shaft (transmission main shaft) requires splitting the cases. It is a major chore and not fun at all.

Title: Re: Worn drive shaft.
Post by Serowbot on 09/16/23 at 12:51:53

That's a parts motor

Title: Re: Worn drive shaft.
Post by verslagen1 on 09/16/23 at 13:01:59

parts engine would be my 1st inclination
otherwise you'll need to weld the pulley to that shaft.
and I'd probably pin it too.

Title: Re: Worn drive shaft.
Post by Fast 650 on 09/16/23 at 22:34:32

The cases split vertically on the LS. Everything has to come apart to get to the transmission. And if you tap the shaft with a hammer to separate the cases the transmission will fall out in a jumble of gears and shift forks. Been there, done that. It is not a fun job and you need a helper to hold everything in place to reassemble. :(

Title: Re: Worn drive shaft.
Post by DragBikeMike on 09/16/23 at 23:01:18

IMO, it's not very hard to do. Since you purchased the engine as a "Parts Engine", you don't need to rush. I assume you have an operational motorcycle so you could take your time and learn all the ins & outs of the Savage powerplant.

You need a few special tools and the service manual. I would spend the extra bucks for a factory service manual. The flywheel puller runs about $60 bucks. Make your own flywheel holder. There's a couple of sockets you will probably need. Tools required to split the case are pretty easy to fabricate.

If you are serious about your Savage, then it is worth every bit of your time & effort to learn how to completely disassemble and assemble your engine. Let's face it, you bought it for parts, if you need any of the parts inside the engine you will have to disassemble it. Might as well learn some stuff in the bargain. Otherwise, it's just worthless junk taking up space in your garage.

If you are willing to take your time, I am willing to go back & forth with you step by step. But you must be patient and wait for the replies before you go to the next step. What is your skill level? How are you fixed for tools and a decent place to work on it?

Thanks for the pics of the output shaft. It's unique.

Title: Re: Worn drive shaft.
Post by zevenenergie on 09/17/23 at 00:46:42

Hi Guys,
That is valuable information.
[smiley=dankk2.gif]

Luckily I'm not in a hurry and my motorcycle has a very good engine.
It's just cosmetically not nice (oxide)

This is my bike:
http://https://i.imgur.com/VMN1CTRm.jpg

I was planning to change the side covers.
But I think it's such a shame to lose that beautiful engine.

My skill level is reasonable, I am an experienced metal worker and am experienced in tuning smal 2-stroke engines.
Splitting this block is a challenge for me because I have never worked on 4-stroke engines and gears are always difficult to put back together. and every engine has its difficulties, but I would dare to do it.
It's a generous offer Dave, to guide me.It would be nice if I do it, that I can ask some questions.

I have a small but reasonably provided metal workshop with a lathe and mill ect. and quite a few tools. I can make special tools myself.
http://https://i.imgur.com/rAG4w8Lm.jpg

The case is that I'm also a bit short on time and that I can sometimes be called away from home for 2 months for work.

And the fact that it is not fun work to split the engine also plays a role, like Fast 650 says.

I have to consider some things, because if I split the block I will get to know it well and I'm looking forward to that. And I could also do some modifications, such as flow the head and increase the compression and perhaps a stage one camshaft. What I would love to know from you Dave is what kind of larger oil pump you have installed in your engine.

And Armen: The GT750 is a 2 stoke, I think has a horizontal split engine that makes things way more eazy.

Serowbot; Could end up that way.

Anyway

I'm going to see if I can secure the pulley to the shaft. Welding and possibly pinning is something I can try, and if it doesn't work, nothing is lost.
With a carbide drill I could also drill 3 holes lengthwise on the dividing line of the pulley and axel, then drive hardened pins into the axles. Then I have new keys and I don't weaken the axle too much. I'll see what's possible, And how that works out. Thanks for that idea Verslagen1. I hadn't thought of that myself.

If you guys like, I keep you posted if there is news to share.

Title: Re: Worn drive shaft.
Post by ohiomoto on 09/17/23 at 05:58:58

1D3A282F6D6E6B5B0 wrote:

----------------

The transmission shouldn't be falling out of the cases. The cases should be split "horizontally" with the engine on its side. Been there, done that dozens of times.

I agree with DBM. It shouldn't be too difficult for someone with some basic mechanical knowledge, access to tooling, and motivation. Just keep the engine on its sides and pay attention to the order of parts removed.

http://https://www.diymotofix.com/uploads/2/7/9/7/27975509/a-freshly-split-crankcase_orig.png

Title: Re: Worn drive shaft.
Post by Dave on 09/17/23 at 17:06:23

I would not permanently attach the pulley to the shaft........I don't believe you can get a belt back on the pulley then without taking off the magneto cover.

Your "parts" engine is a project that needs a new output shaft for the transmission - you can take the engine apart as time allows and rebuild it to be an engine that you know is put back properly. Just follow the Shop Manual step by step and you should be OK. If your existing engine is healthy......you likely have years of time to get your spare engine ready.

Also - DragBikeMike is the one who offered to help you step by step. I can chime in when needed.....Mike is far more detailed in his observations than I am .

Title: Re: Worn drive shaft.
Post by DragBikeMike on 09/18/23 at 01:57:41

Zevenenergie, you have a superb looking shop. If you can run those machine tools, working the Savage engine will be a walk in the park.

I agree with Dave, I wouldn't try to weld the pulley on to the output shaft, and I wouldn't try to pin it. The teardown and reassembly are easier than welding or pinning, and when you are all done you will have a quality result.

Let us know if you decide to tear it down.

Ooooops! Almost forgot to answer your question about the oil pump. I had the option to install a higher volume pump that I made using a SV650 gerotor, or install an overdrive gearset. I chose the overdrive gear set. It increases the speed of the oil pump by about 36%. It works great. Should have a post ready to go in a week or so.

Title: Re: Worn drive shaft.
Post by badwolf on 09/18/23 at 12:53:22

You could make a adaptor to weld to the shaft to mount a sprocket to and convert to chain. That would elimate the belt removal problem.
BUT, the heat from welding on the shaft would NOT be good for the oil seal.
If that leaks and it is welded together,,, you are messed-up. But you would have a self-oiling chain.

Title: Re: Worn drive shaft.
Post by zevenenergie on 09/19/23 at 12:39:04

I have abandoned the idea of welding the pulley. The shaft is worn too thin to center the pulley and thus bending forces would be placed on the weld. And indeed the drive shaft would become too hot and burn the rubber seal. But I have to say that a self-lubricating system does put a smile on my face.

I'm sorry I mixed Dave and DragBikeMike but both of your names start with a D.

Thanks for the compliment about my workshop, I,m an amateur hobby machinist. But I have often worked for my employers on professional metalworking machines to replace pro,s when they were sick or went to work elsewhere. I'm not that fast but I get the job done. If I have one quality it is versatility in metalworking skills. From forging to mechanical benchwork. That has always been easy for me.

Over the past few days I have been watching head flow videos on You Tube and it has made me very excited. I can say that I can tune a 2-stroke quite professionally and I regularly do this for others. But from what I have seen so far, a 4-stroke is much more laborious and you need a lot more equipment, but it has less mystery than a 2-stroke.

So I decided to repair the engine with a different drive shaft and to tune the engine as far as my technical insight allows, using only the standard parts except the header and the silencer.
I look forward to the post about the bigger oil pump.
This will be a fun winter project.

But I'm not going to push myself, I'll take it as it comes, and take my time. As they say, eazy does it.

Title: Re: Worn drive shaft.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/19/23 at 15:20:53

I'm not that fast but I get the job done.
Like the Savage.

Title: Re: Worn drive shaft.
Post by DragBikeMike on 09/20/23 at 17:25:58

Zevenenergie,

Start by taking a whole bunch of photos of the engine. Top, bottom, rear, front, right-side, left-side. Get lots of close ups. Then set up an electronic file system to organize and store your photos. Take pictures before you disassemble anything, and then continue to take pictures each time you remove a part. They will come in handy when you find yourself trying to remember how something goes back together.

When you have a manual and you are ready to start disassembly, just let us know.

If you get into flow testing your head, it's easy and inexpensive to make a small flow bench. As I recall, I did a post on how to do that, but I can't find it. I'll keep looking. However, this old post on my Stage III head should be of interest.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1595224521/0

Title: Re: Worn drive shaft.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/21/23 at 02:57:34

A piece of cardboard ,outline of whatever part drawn, slot in cardboard to hold the bolt.
Eliminate the puzzle of
Which bolt goes here?
Head cover has different lengths
Clutch cover has oil seals..
Keeping an eye toward going back together As it comes apart makes for a slower disassembly, but it takes so many questions out of assembly that it's worth it.

If you ever have to remove the oil pump drive gear, mark it before you move it.
It can be installed wrong side out,, and then the motor dies.
Can you eyeball it and agonize over it and figure it out?
Yeah, but don't.
Mark it,avoid the chance of getting it wrong and wasting time figuring it out.

Title: Re: Worn drive shaft.
Post by zevenenergie on 09/21/23 at 08:58:03

It's nice to get these tips, working systematically and photos do indeed make life easier. So I'm going to pay extra attention to this. I normally trust my memory. But my gut feeling tells me that I better not do that.

I have studied the link and am impressed with the work you have done on it DBM. It shows decisiveness and a lot of time spent.
I lookt at your flow work and and how you approach it. I've already watched quite a few videos.
But it's better to see what it looks like on the savage.
I have an idea now of how I want to approach it and try to keep it simpel and affordable.

I am now on the lookout for a drive shaft.
And I realized that there are 4 and 5 gear engines. So the question that came up is, are they both the same?

That would make searching easier because I see that sellers never include data.

Title: Re: Worn drive shaft.
Post by DragBikeMike on 09/22/23 at 23:10:37

The output shafts are not the same. If your current engine has a 4-speed, you will need a 4-speed shaft. If your current engine is a 5-speed, you will need a 5-speed shaft.

Model years through 1988 had a 4-speed. Model years after 1988 had a 5-speed.

What model year is your spare engine?

If you intend to get serious with the performance mods, you should consider converting to a 4-speed (if you don't already have a 4-speed). I have had problems with pitting on the 5-speed transmissions. The 5-speed gears are narrower and not as robust as the 4-speed gears.

I found the link for the flow bench post. It's easy to build and inexpensive. If you are interested in the DTEC article, send me a PM with your eMail and I will send you a PDF.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1538442855/0#12

Title: Re: Worn drive shaft.
Post by zevenenergie on 09/23/23 at 05:05:29

Hi DragBikeMike

[smiley=dankk2.gif] for finding and posting the link.
I skimmed the topic. And study it later.

The world of 4 stroke tuning is opening up for me and I am using all my free time to gather information about it. I saw the name David Vizard in your text and I completely absorbed that YouTube channel. Nice that you also get inspiration from that sorce.

My previous Savage had a 4-speed engine, which I thought suited the Savage better. and in my opinion the gears were also quieter.
I found a 5 speed axle, but this man also has a complete 4 speed transmission. Does that fit in a 5 speed engine? Or are the crankcases also different?

4-stroke tunning is much more fun than tought. I,t fits in nicely with my masinist hobby.
I have designed a device for drilling out valve seats and drilling the hole to size for bigger ones. It can be used in a drill press. When it is finished and tested I will post the photos here.

Have a nice weekend. :)

Title: Re: Worn drive shaft.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/23/23 at 06:06:22

That old dude, Vizard, knows a Bunch about how to wring another Shetland out.
I missed the last Coupla videos on Uncle Tony's 318 that he did. The goal was to see what they could get out of it and keep it stock. Same heads and valves, IDK if they Had to bore it. Vizard just talks like a deep and wide warehouse of knowledge. Anyone who has a flowbench, machinery to modify heads, install valves,custom grind them,, good grief, when he is gone, the world is going to be short one major source of wisdom and knowledge. Ohh,and Ability,, he can actually Do it.
I think it was the 318 heads he didn't like the squish on and he welded them, machined them to his specs.