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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> What could be the source of this engine rattle? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1687532235 Message started by och on 06/23/23 at 07:57:15 |
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Title: What could be the source of this engine rattle? Post by och on 06/23/23 at 07:57:15 It is on the left size of the engine, seems to be coming from the head, but maybe from the crankcase, I'm not sure. I started noticing it maybe a month ago, seems to be getting worse, but the engine runs strong. Video below. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ftgqMdRl2E |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by Tocsik on 06/23/23 at 10:03:34 Sounds like loose valves to me. Easy enough to check. Be sure your motor is stone cold; not even ridden at all the day before you check them. |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by Ruttly on 06/23/23 at 11:48:43 Better hope it isn’t the cam chain tensioner coming apart. Past experiences tell me , they run the best right before they blow up. Drop your oil and check for metallic debris. Just to be safe. Oil is cheap , engines are not ! |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by och on 06/23/23 at 12:21:28 66414040584D340 wrote:
It is definitely on the other side of the engine, where the magneto is. Last month I had the clutch done, mechanic said the chain and tensioner are nice and tight. |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by Dave on 06/24/23 at 03:47:49 My bike and a couple of others developed a rattle that was elusive, and later turned into a loud knocking sound. The sound started when the bike only had 400 miles on it....by the time it reached 1,200 miles it was incredibly loud. The sound was loudest at idle and would get quieter as the rpm increased. It was impossible to locate the source....it just seemed to come from everywhere on the left side of the engine. I took the motor apart starting at the top end and worked my way down. When I went to remove the flywheel nut it was loose! All the rattling and eventual knocking was caused by the flywheel rattling on the splices of the flywheel/crankshaft. If you can't find it anywhere else.....check the flywheel nut before you tear the engine apart. |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by och on 06/24/23 at 05:25:50 12292433222E353328202D32410 wrote:
Thank you Dave. My clutch was replaced last month, and I think this is when the noise appeared - I guess it could be the mechanic didn't tighten the flywheel? |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by Dave on 06/24/23 at 08:47:32 The flywheel nut is not involved in a clutch repair....they are on opposite sides of the engine and on different shafts. The clutch nut is on the right side of the input (intermediate) shaft - while the flywheel is on the right side of the crankshaft....behind the magneto. The mechanic would not have loosened, removed or tightened the flywheel nut while working on a clutch. |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by och on 06/24/23 at 08:51:41 013A3720313D26203B333E21520 wrote:
Understood, it makes sense now. I think I know what caused it, I had the starter clutch gear disassembled last year, and then when I put it back together I didn't use oil between plates, and my starter was making a weird sound for months. Now its back to normal, but I think that gear might have caused the flywheel to loosen up. I really do not want to take that cover off if I don't have to, if its just going to continue to make noise but doesn't get any worse, I'll just leave it be. |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by Dave on 06/24/23 at 13:30:42 If it is the flywheel nut - it will get looser and louder. As the nut continues to loosen, the flywheel rattle will become so loud you will not be able to ride the bike without folks stopping and staring at you! When I would pull up to a parking space folks would look at me in disbelief. It took about 600 miles for mine to go from a tick to a loud banging sound. The noise was worse at idle and when cruising at 60mph it was not noticeable. |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by DragBikeMike on 06/24/23 at 19:58:28 This is what the loose flywheel sounds like when it gets outa hand. It's pretty bad. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1660775470 |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by och on 06/25/23 at 07:56:38 Thank you. Wow, nothing is easy with this bike. |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by och on 07/28/23 at 18:49:16 The noise is now so bad that it overpowers the exhaust. I still have no idea where its coming from, but its present at all times. One question - is the starter clutch/torque limiting gear spinning at all times? I had it disassembled and reassembled back a while ago, and I cleaned it when it was apart, and did not apply any oil to it when I reassembled it. After that, the bike sounded weird when I was starting it, but no I think it starts normal, but I think I may have done some permanent damage to that gear that causes it to rattle? |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by och on 07/28/23 at 19:18:21 Take a look at the video below, this is from last October/November when I reassembled my starter clutch gear, and reinstalled the stator cover. You can hear the bike sounding weird while starting, and a little bit of metallic rattle when I rev it up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPpOqLGAAfw And this is now the way it rattles, I think this is that little rattle from last year amplified. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=947tPGFNm7k |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by verslagen1 on 07/28/23 at 22:03:49 6468630B0 wrote:
No, it only turns while starting. |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by verslagen1 on 07/28/23 at 22:09:35 I think I would check the valves. and the decomp cam, if the cam or rockers are worn, the decomp cam gets close to the rocker and can tap. |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by verslagen1 on 07/28/23 at 22:11:11 the sound is tinny to me, like a loose piece of sheet metal. feel around and check all the usual suspects. |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by Gary_in_NJ on 07/29/23 at 05:47:36 Get yourself a 12” section of 1” wooden dowel and use it as a stethoscope to determine where the noise is actually coming from. |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by och on 07/29/23 at 10:03:10 So I got a stethoscope and listened to my everywhere on the engine, the only place that produces metallic knocking noise is the head. I am not sure if this is the source of my noise, I imagine its somewhat normal for the valves to make metallic noises as they go up and down? |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by DragBikeMike on 07/29/23 at 11:18:29 That's a very interesting noise. You are in a difficult situation. As I recall, you don't do the work on your bike. You take it to a shop. If that is the case, what do you hope to accomplish by posting the video? IMO, you would be better off finding a really good trustworthy shop and let them figure it out. Typically, the advice provided on the forum is utilized by the person asking the question. Putting the forum members in between you and the shop only adds confusion. It erodes trust between you and the shop. On the other hand, if you were to do the work yourself, then you would always have first-hand knowledge of exactly what has been checked, how it looked, if it was tight or loose, how it was adjusted, etc. You would also learn a lot, improve your skill set, and accumulate the necessary tools. If I got your situation wrong, please set me straight. The noise in your vid seems to be more predominant at the top of the engine, and you say it is on the left side. My vote is decompression release mechanism. Loosen up the cable and see if the tapping goes away. |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by och on 07/29/23 at 12:25:07 5C5A55292B2C28180 wrote:
Thank you. I do some work on my bike, but for more complex stuff I take it to a shop. To access the decomp mechanism, is it just the tank I need to remove? |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by verslagen1 on 07/29/23 at 14:18:52 You can see some of the mechanics with the tank in place. But to see if the cam hits the rocker, you need to pull the tank and front inspection cover then rotate the crank while observing the rocker |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by och on 07/29/23 at 16:52:55 Tried to pick up the noise with my gopro microphone, you can really hear it starting at the 45 second mark. With the stethoscope this metallic noise is definitely coming from the head. I guess I'll take off the tank and check the decompression system first, it is my understanding that I can disconnect it all together and run the bike to see if the noise disappears? https://youtu.be/9Jm3aXktFlg |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by verslagen1 on 07/29/23 at 19:24:43 5F5358300 wrote:
If the cam is hitting the rocker… no If the valves are loose… no If the cam or rocker are worn… no |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by och on 07/29/23 at 20:09:19 677463627D7076747F20110 wrote:
If the cam is hitting the rocker… no If the valves are loose… no If the cam or rocker are worn… no [/quote] I meant to disconnect the decompression system and run the bike without it, to eliminate possible sources. If the noise disappears with the decomp system disconnected, no need to look further. I understand the way it works it may be keeping my exhaust valves slightly open? |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by DragBikeMike on 07/30/23 at 16:04:49 Try these tests. Quick & dirty, no need to disassemble anything. You can see from my 2nd vid that the release mechanism can make a noise similar to yours. Free play check https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOJmXTcOiI8 Noise check, engine running https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6MKigSVNKQ0 It seemed like a good opportunity to learn something so I gave it a whirl. Got me thinkin that I need to check this when I do my clay checks for piston-to-valve clearance. Something I didn't consider. There's always something lurking around the corner. Good luck. |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by verslagen1 on 07/30/23 at 18:51:54 Wow noisy valves Mike you should try loosening that up a bit You can get it so it’ll start immediately but still open the valve when needed |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by och on 07/30/23 at 19:43:50 Thank you so much, I will definitely check that mechanism! |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by DragBikeMike on 07/31/23 at 10:46:44 Hey Versy, thanks for the assessment of my rattle trap. I'm past due for a service and will be doing one in the next day or so. Will let you know where my valve clearance is and also my CCT extension. While audio recordings on an iPad held 12 inches away from the cylinder head can be misleading, I agree that she's a bit noisy. But it (the video) did a great job of showing how the compression release can make a lot of noise if it's too tight. Why do you feel I should loosen up my release cable? The spec is 2 to 5 mm and I'm within that spec. It starts fine and seems to work perfectly. What do you think I would gain by loosening the cable? I guess it would give me a little more confidence that I have enough valve-to-piston clearance when I run a flat-top piston. |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by LANCER on 07/31/23 at 11:21:25 I eliminated the decomp system completely. In place of the cable to actuate the exhaust valves I used a small 2” Allen head bolt. It’s an easy push on the bolt with my thumb to open the valves briefly upon hitting the start button. I’ve had this setup for 5-6 years and have only needed to use the mechanism one time to start the engine when it was on the compression stroke. Other than that one occasion it spins up and starts fairly easily every time. Keep in mind that I have the 97mm flat top piston with greater than 10.5:1 CR, due to the larger bore and with my head having been shaved 0.015”. |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by verslagen1 on 07/31/23 at 15:03:38 67616E12101713230 wrote:
Like most people, when I started doing this I didn’t know sh!t from shinola but I did notice that lever was just a little above the stop and when I adjusted it, it went up. Starting wasn’t as quick too. So I loosened it back up and starting went back to 2 or 3 grunts (2 revs per grunt) loosened a little more and it’s 1 grunt. But you do have to be careful as you can find yourself stuck needing a decomp release to get it started if you go to far. |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by och on 08/05/23 at 07:43:49 Just opened up the covers and checked the decompression mechanism - it is working properly and is not the source of the rattle. I guess I'll do a valve adjustment job once I'm halfway there. Will a feelers gauge from autozone do the job? |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/07/23 at 08:06:45 I always pull the ones I want out of the assembly. Bent into a Z , with a ski tip on the end. |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by Surviving Philly on 08/07/23 at 11:19:05 Och if you check my post history I had a buzzing/rattle but was clearly from the clutch cover, cause being clutch related. Not sure if this is helpful to you, I have watched the videos you've posted but it's hard for me to hear what is going on or where the sound is emanating from. |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by och on 08/07/23 at 17:49:21 744551484A4B48454A240 wrote:
Thanks! Although I think my noise originates from the head, I can't be sure, and my clutch was recently replaced and this is when the rattle started to occur. Since I am already committed to doing a valve job, I will try it first and go from there. |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by och on 08/10/23 at 18:53:35 Allright adjust my valves today, set them to dead .004" - but they weren't out of spec to begin with, i could slide .005" in there but not .006", so they were right on the money. I noticed that the intake rocker arms have quite a bit of play, but exhaust rocker arms did not have any. Is this normal? Also, I stripped one of the main valve cover bolts, the really deep one with a rubber washer. Any idea what to do? I don't think I can rethread it without removing the head. |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by DragBikeMike on 08/11/23 at 12:45:34 "I noticed that the intake rocker arms have quite a bit of play, but exhaust rocker arms did not have any. Is this normal?" What kind of play, side-to-side or up & down? There are wave-washers installed on the right-hand side of each rocker. You should be able to push it toward the right and it should return back toward the left on its own. "I don't think I can rethread it without removing the head." Correct |
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Title: Re: What could be the source of this engine rattle Post by och on 08/11/23 at 13:40:01 Up and down on the rockers - when all the way down they touch the valve, once up i can slide .004" feeler gauge. |
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