|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Oil Pump Options /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1680140612 Message started by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 18:43:31 |
|
Title: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 18:43:31 What I describe in this post worked good for me. If you decide to try this stuff on your own, you assume responsibility for the outcome. If you don’t have the skills, don’t do it. If you don’t understand something, STOP and get help. Get a manual. Read up. Comply with ALL the safety requirements outlined in the manual. Make sure you know what you are doing before attempting any of these modifications. In February of 2022, I was a little over half-way through a long term 10,000-mile test on a big bore engine. It had the new Wiseco flat-top piston installed and made a lot of power. The engine was slowing down, and something wasn’t right. I looked and found this. |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 18:44:32 There was heavy pitting on 5th gear. Metal debris had been flung all around in the engine and it took a toll on the piston and cylinder. The engine still ran OK, but it was nowhere near as crisp and powerful as it was when I started the test. I installed my spare engine to continue testing on the flat-top pistons. The spare had a 94mm flat-top piston, and a cylinder head that flowed a bit less than the one I was running on the 97mm engine. It wasn’t as powerful as the 97mm flat-top engine, but it still had a lot of steam. I started a new 10,000-mile long-term test. The smaller engine ran well throughout the long-term test. I confined the WOT stuff to 1st thru 4th gear. It seemed like a prudent move since I wasn’t exactly sure why 5th gear failed on the big-bore. I kept a close eye on the magnetic drain plug and no chunks of metal showed up. I did notice a gradual decline in compression as time went on, but the engine ran perfectly. At the 10,000-mile mark it was time for a teardown. I wanted to see exactly how things held up. To my disappointment, 4th gear was severely pitted. |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 18:46:09 There’s an old saying, “If you wanna play you gotta pay.”. Changing out gears every 10,000 miles seems like too high a price. Gear pitting is a fatigue failure related to overload. There’s not a lot you can do to rectify the problem. Some of the choices are: -Reduce the load (obviously not an option for dragbikemike) -Improve the material (higher tensile & yield strength, harder surface) -Increase the load bearing surface to reduce contact pressure (physically larger gears) -Improve lubrication (more oil, cooler oil, better oil, surface treatments). |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 18:48:21 Reducing load is the obvious choice, but I don’t wanna reduce the load. Increasing the load is the object of my affection. Improving the material is cost prohibitive, so that one is on the back burner. Increasing the load bearing surface is a viable option. The old 4-speed gears are wider than the newer 5-speed gears. My two failures were on 5-speeds. I am currently running a 4-speed to continue testing. Unfortunately, I’m collecting metal chips on the magnet again. Although I can’t see any gear pitting, it’s obvious something is failing. |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 18:49:29 I refuse to give up. So, more oil it will be. I have come up with two options for increasing oil flow. If I increase the volume of oil provided, I can maintain current flow and pressure to the various components in the system and take any excess oil and dump it on the gears. An ambitious endeavor. More oil might also be a nice option to pursue on a relatively stock engine. If any of you are running an oil pressure gage, I’m sure you are familiar with that pit that forms in your stomach when stuck in traffic on a hot day. You know how anxious you get as you observe the whopping 2 psi degrade to ZERO. Wouldn’t it be nice if you could run on the freeway and maintain 8 or 9 psi, and maybe never see anything less than maybe 2 psi when idling? |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 18:50:41 Option 1 – Bigger Pump As it turns out, the LS650 uses a gerotor pump that is like the SV650. The SV650 has three more camshafts, one more rod & piston, and one more gear. It needs more oil. Wouldn’t it be nice if the SV650 oil pump could be adapted to the LS650. This is a stock LS650 oil pump. |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 18:51:23 This is a stock SV650 oil pump. |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 18:52:27 The SV pump does not incorporate a bellmouth suction strainer, but it just happens to utilize a rotating assembly that is exactly the same outside diameter as the LS. The two pump shafts are the same diameter too. Here you see the SV rotor next to the LS rotor. Except for the thickness, they are pretty much the same. The SV rotor is .512” thick while the LS rotor is .394” thick, a 30% increase. That should result in a 30% increase in volume if you ignore slippage. Note that the SV rotor I purchased on eBay is kinda beat up. Oh well, it’s an experiment. |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 18:53:07 It stands to reason that the SV outer rotor has an identical 30% increase in thickness. |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 18:53:47 If you are very, very, very careful and get the setup just right, you can machine the LS pump housing deeper to accept the SV rotating assembly. You have to get the face and bore running dead-nuts to pull this off, but if I can do it anyone can. |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 18:54:33 Fits like a glove. It must be perfect. If you get the extended bore eccentric to the original, or if the face isn’t exactly perpendicular to the bore, the rotating assembly will either bind, or the internal leakage will erase the increase in volume and only serve to heat up the oil as the pump slips. |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 18:55:20 I managed a solid 20% increase in flow on the dragbikemike test bench. Not perfect, but I’ll take what I can get. Looks like the modified pump might be a significant improvement. It will bolt right into the LS650 case, use the stock shaft and drive gears, and for sure pump more oil. It requires complete engine disassembly and I have no idea how the stock system will handle the increased flow. More to come. |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 18:56:20 Option 2 – Increase Pump Speed You can increase flow with a bigger pump, or you can also increase flow by turning the pump faster. The stock oil pump drive is in the primary case, it’s easy to get to. The 30-tooth drive gear resides on the clutch hub. The 35-tooth driven gear is on the pump shaft. So, the drive gears reduce speed, one revolution of the clutch turns the pump 0.86 revolutions. |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 18:57:04 What if we could switch those gears? Put the 35-tooth gear on the clutch, and the 30-tooth gear on the pump. Then instead of a speed reducer, we would have an overdrive system. One revolution of the clutch will turn the pump 1.17 revolutions. You could install the hi-speed gearset without tearing apart the engine. Seems like a good deal to me. Less work to install, 36% more volume. What’s not to like about that? |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 18:57:57 Well, one thing not to like about that is gears are extremely hard. These suckers are in excess of HRC 45. Machining this stuff with my old jalopy lathe and hobbyist tools is tough. It took a very long time to modify these gears. I sure hope they don’t blow up. Had to do an initial cut to establish a reference fit on the 35-tooth gear. Man, it was hard stuff. |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 18:58:46 Then cut through all the spokes. |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 18:59:20 Fabricate a hub with a precise bore for the clutch basket and an accurate & concentric fit for the gear. |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 19:00:09 Broach the keyway. |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 19:01:02 Attach the gear to the hub. |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 19:01:47 Whew! Still more to do. Gotta set up the 30-tooth driven gear. Lob off the boss and clean up the face. It’s like .001” to .002” cuts. Takes forever and wrecks your tools. |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 19:02:27 Fabricate a hub with a tight, concentric fit & bore. Set up a drive pin and keyway. |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 19:03:01 Attach the gear to the hub. |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 19:04:04 The hi-speed gears came out good. They fit snug, turn smooth, and the backlash is uniform 360° around. So, with a hi-volume pump and a hi-speed gearset I have options. I can run the pump alone, or the gearset alone, or marry them up. I should have more than enough capacity. Still have to worry about suction lift. The stock pump bellmouth may not be able to handle the flow, which could result in the pump losing suction. I’m not sure what will happen when this thing really gets cookin. Best stick with synthetic oil which has a higher flash point, and use 10W-40 rather than my go-to 20W-50 (at least until I see how things shake out). I modified a suction strainer. Don’t wanna use it unless I’m forced to. I want to see if the hi-speed gears will work OK with a stock pump assembly. It will be nice to know that you could simply install the gearset without worry. Essentially no need to tear open the crankcase. There isn’t enough material to open up the bellmouth either. It narrows down the closer it gets to the gerotor. I suspect that if suction lift is a problem, it will rear it’s ugly head up in the bellmouth passage. |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 19:05:01 Also, must be concerned about wall thickness on the pump housing. After the machining, it’s just a little over 3mm thick. If the hydraulic loads are great enough, it could blow out the left side of the pump. If I get to a point where I install the high-volume pump, I will probably drill out the oil discharge passage in the right side engine case to increase the cross section by about 30%. That should help reduce pressure (assuming the filter can support the flow). The SV pumps also utilize an unloader valve. I bought two pump assemblies off eBay. I made sure to get the unloader along with the pump. Still must check the unloader to see where it lifts, along with the bypass relief in the oil filter. That’s info I need to capture. This is the SV unloader. It takes about 3 pounds of force to move the valve, and looks like the valve seating area is about .31” diameter. Doesn’t look like it would require much pressure to start the lift, but it does look like it would be easy to make it adjustable. Looks can be deceiving. |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 19:05:56 So, now it’s time to yank the engine out and see where all the metal chips are coming from. As I previously mentioned, endoscope inspection does not reveal any gears with pits. I have no idea where the debris is coming from. The only thing I know for sure is it can’t be good. As Armen says, “You find your limits by exceeding them.”. More to come. Mike |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by Armen on 03/29/23 at 20:13:58 Awesome work and write-up! Thanks! As you pursue the world’s first 90HP Savage! |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by Ruttly on 03/29/23 at 20:35:12 Our only limits are ones we set for ourselves We accel when fear becomes curiosity 2 cent |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/13/23 at 23:43:51 You missed some letters.. We accel when fear becomes curiosity We accelerate when fear becomes curiosity. We accelerate to the emergency room. |
|
Title: Re: Oil Pump Options Post by zevenenergie on 09/25/23 at 03:56:49 Wow a compete how to... And some nice sayings as dessert ;) |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |