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General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> So... I think I'm running a little rich.
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Message started by Jeremy Pavleck on 03/27/23 at 23:48:12

Title: So... I think I'm running a little rich.
Post by Jeremy Pavleck on 03/27/23 at 23:48:12

What makes me think that? Well, how about this:

http://https://i.imgur.com/pWu9UcN.jpg

The age of that plug? Maybe a few weeks. We're talking a handful of miles.

Can someone just please tell me what I need to do? I have a pack of main and pilot jets and I don't mind swapping them out. I just don't know enough about motorcycle carbs. I've got a Suzuki GZ250 that's as reliable as all get out and I want this savage to be as well.

I was noticing when I'd take it and get on it a little bit it appeared to cut out and skip cycles in the upper rpms. Then it wouldn't start, and the darn plug in it was just dead. So I threw in a new one and not even 2 weeks later it looks like this and I just have no idea what to do anymore.

I've even changed the jets and went 1 smaller for the pilot and main because I pulled out the airbox and am running a K&N style filter - do I need to reduce the jet size even more? I mean, I guess I do.

Bottom line, I'm getting sick and tired of pulling this carb out, putting it back in, pulling it out, etc etc so I'd just like someone to give me an educated guess as to what all I need to do to this thing.

Title: Re: So... I think I'm running a little rich.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/28/23 at 01:26:54

What have you done to it?

Title: Re: So... I think I'm running a little rich.
Post by Dave on 03/28/23 at 04:01:13

Do you still have the stock vacuum operated petcock? If so.....it could be the diaphragm is leaking fuel into the vacuum line.

Pull the vacuum line and see if it is wet with fuel before you start working on the carb.

Title: Re: So... I think I'm running a little rich.
Post by verslagen1 on 03/28/23 at 07:29:24

check vac line for gas
check float height
how old is the bike
where are you located
do you have a dog

Title: Re: So... I think I'm running a little rich.
Post by ohiomoto on 03/28/23 at 20:37:29

It's one of two things:
1. Someone swapped the main jet with the air jet while "rebuilding" their carb.
2. Someone ordered a "Carb Rebuild Kit" from eBay or Amazon.

Title: Re: So... I think I'm running a little rich.
Post by Ruttly on 03/28/23 at 21:37:15

Check your oil for fuel too , smell it. Petcock or carb or really plugged up air filter.

Title: Re: So... I think I'm running a little rich.
Post by Dave on 03/29/23 at 08:54:47

Is this running rich issue something that recently occurred? Has the bike run well prior to this issue? Is this something that came on suddenly?

Title: Re: So... I think I'm running a little rich.
Post by Yoshi on 03/29/23 at 09:51:43

Instal a 55 pilot jet and a 152.5 main jet, make sure the washer is under the main jet. 3 washers on the needle should do you good.

Title: Re: So... I think I'm running a little rich.
Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/23 at 10:49:19

What kind of spark plug is that? I've never seen one like that. It looks like it has some sort of shield or cover over the electrodes. Can you post more pictures of the plug and provide additional info? Maybe the angle of your photo has me seeing things that aren't there.

You might wanna try using a stock spark plug (NGK DPR8EA). A severe misfire will coke up your plug too. You might have a misfire issue rather than jetting, or possibly both.

Title: Re: So... I think I'm running a little rich.
Post by Jeremy Pavleck on 03/30/23 at 22:06:24

It's one of those E3 plugs - it was just the one that Amazon said was compatible and I could get same day.

As for the rest of the questions:

* It is a carb kit, but it's a good kit that ran me $45 just for a minimal number of parts and not one of those $10 kits that included everything. For example, the air/fuel mix screw looks exactly like the original, it wasn't one of those longer ones.

* It's got a Raptor petcock on it

* Washer is on the main jet like it should be

* I did go down a size on the main and pilot

* I did take out the air box and put in a K&N style filter and rejetted it one smaller than it already was - not sure if I have to go even smaller.

* There's no fuel in the oil from what I can see.

* It's pretty much been like this since I got it.

I bought this bike for $50 not running. Whatever fuel was left in the tank leaked out and around into the crankcase. The guy I got from said he had it running for a little bit but it was really rough. I wonder if he was running it with that fuel/oil mix in the crankcase and if he did did that screw something up.

I did a carb rebuild and yes, at first I used a cheap kit from amazon but then I redid it again using an All Balls kit 26-1705 see https://www.allballsracing.com/26-1705.html

Now, I haven't messed with the needle at though - should I give that a try? It's still using the stock Suzuki one with the multiple notches on it because it looked perfectly fine so I didn't feel a need to replace it.

Title: Re: So... I think I'm running a little rich.
Post by DragBikeMike on 03/31/23 at 12:00:58

I'm not sure what year your bike is but you need to verify that the parts you are looking at are actually correct. Just because the AllBalls kit cost $45 bucks doesn't make it a good kit. Note that it says "for off road use only". That implies that it's not an overhaul kit, it's a jet kit. It alters the fuel curve. That could be good, or it could be bad.

If I am interpreting your posts correctly, since you took possession of the motorcycle it has never run correctly. That makes the job a bit harder since the problem/s could be almost anything. Given the condition of your spark plug, the carburetor seems like a good place to start.

Speaking of spark plugs, ditch the E3 and get the correct plug in there. Buy 3 or 4 NGKs, you may need them.

This is the Mikuni Logo. Your slide needle should have this logo stamped on it adjacent to the needle size identifier, which should be either a 5C16 or 5C39.

Title: Re: So... I think I'm running a little rich.
Post by DragBikeMike on 03/31/23 at 12:07:30

You mentioned your slide needle is "stock, with multiple notches". Multiple notches doesn't mean the needle is stock. The Mikuni logo and size designator will tell you the story.

What year is your bike. The early models used a 5C16 needle that had 3 notches. The later models use a 5C39 needle with only 1 notch. Look at your needle and tell if it has the Mikuni logo along with either 5C16 or 5C39. A magnifying glass helps.

These are both genuine needles, early and late model.

Title: Re: So... I think I'm running a little rich.
Post by DragBikeMike on 03/31/23 at 12:11:56

You mentioned you pulled out the airbox and have a K&N filter. Make sure your filter isn't covering up this oval vent port. If the rubber shoulder on the filter covers up the vent port it will block off atmospheric pressure to your pilot air bleeds in the top of the carb, and also prevent the slide from lifting correctly.

Title: Re: So... I think I'm running a little rich.
Post by DragBikeMike on 03/31/23 at 12:15:33

Have you removed the needle jet and inspected it. It should be an X7 or an X8. It should be silver indicating that it is made from stainless steel. Tell us about your needle jet. What color is it? What size is it? Keep in mind that even if it may have started out as a genuine Mikuni jet, someone may have attempted to soup it up (i.e. drilled it).

See how the genuine Mikuni part is silver.

Title: Re: So... I think I'm running a little rich.
Post by DragBikeMike on 03/31/23 at 12:17:19

Verify that your main air bleed is not obstructed. It's a very tiny jet (.021") in the mouth of the carb. Make sure it's not plugged up. If this air bleed is plugged up it will run rich.

Title: Re: So... I think I'm running a little rich.
Post by DragBikeMike on 03/31/23 at 12:22:09

Does your enrichment valve close all the way. When you pull out the enrichment plunger (commonly & incorrectly referred to as the "choke"), it opens up a fuel passage along with a bypass air passage. That raises idle speed and admits a big shot of fuel. Does the plunger go all the way home when you push it in?

That plunger has a rubber seat pressed into the face of the plunger. Is the rubber seat in there? If the rubber seat is missing or damaged it will allow fuel to leak into the bypass passage and cause a rich mixture.

Title: Re: So... I think I'm running a little rich.
Post by DragBikeMike on 03/31/23 at 12:27:51

You need to start from a position of knowledge. That means being sure that all the parts in the carb are correct. That means looking for the Mikuni logo and size designators, or purchasing genuine replacement parts from a Suzuki dealer. Even if a used part has the logo, correct size, and appears to be genuine, it may have been modified. You've gotta be sure what you have is correct to start with.

Title: Re: So... I think I'm running a little rich.
Post by DragBikeMike on 04/01/23 at 10:31:05

I forgot to mention your slide needle position. You must have removed the needle because you stated it has three grooves. If the needle is assembled incorrectly, it will cause an overly rich or lean mixture. Tell how your slide needle assembly is stacked up, position of the clip, etc.

-The clip should be in the center groove.

-The plastic spacer/washer should be on top of the clip.

-The thin metal washer should be under the clip.

-The spring should be under the thin metal washer.

Title: Re: So... I think I'm running a little rich.
Post by DragBikeMike on 04/01/23 at 10:34:29

It should look like this.

Title: Re: So... I think I'm running a little rich.
Post by DragBikeMike on 04/01/23 at 10:37:33

Also, verify that the retaining plate is installed correctly. The plate should not cover the holes/orifices in the bottom of the slide. It's possible to install the retaining plate upside down, which will obstruct the holes/orifices. When it is installed correctly, it should look like this.

Title: Re: So... I think I'm running a little rich.
Post by Jeremy Pavleck on 04/03/23 at 03:45:33

Now that... that might not be the correct part. It did have Mikuni one thgat was so corroded that even the ultrasonic couldn't clean it up, so I used one from a cheap kit that fit correctly. Maybe I should just buy a whole new kit from Suzuki themselves and see if it fixes it.
The bike is a 2003.

6C6A65191B1C18280 wrote:

Title: Re: So... I think I'm running a little rich.
Post by DragBikeMike on 04/04/23 at 14:29:43

Jeremy, I don't recall you saying exactly what slide needle you have in there. You mentioned you thought it was the stock needle with three grooves. Can you look at the needle and tell us if it has the Mikuni logo and what the markings are?

The needle jet and slide needle work together to control your mixture. You spend about 90% of your operating time with those two components in control of your mixture. They are very precise.

Mikuni needle jets generally come in various sizes. They are sized in .0002" increments. That's two ten-thousndths of an inch (.00508 mm). For example, changing from a Q-7 to a Q-8 only increases the orifice size by .0002".

The slide needles are equally precise. The stock slide needle diameter only changes by about .0005" for every millimeter of movement up or down. Move the needle up 1mm and the diameter in way of the needle jet gets smaller by about .0005".

These are not components that lend themselves to mix & match activity. Taking parts from an aftermarket kit and mixing them in with another part of unknown origin or quality is a recipe for disaster.

You can't buy a kit from Suzuki. The parts are sold individually. I suggest you purchase genuine parts from a Suzuki dealer or an on-line parts supplier. Babbitt's Suzuki Partshouse lists the needle jet for a 2003 LS650 as 09494-00861 and the price is $45.49. They list the slide needle as 13383-24C40 and the price is $16.16. With shipping charges I suspect the total cost for those two parts will approach $80 bucks.

Genuine Mikuni main jets and pilot jets can be purchased all over the place. You can get them at a Suzuki dealer, on-line at Jets-R-Us, from most motorcycle dealers, Sudco, independent repair shops, etc. Again, look for the Mikuni logo to give you some degree of confidence that it is a genuine Mikuni jet. These days, even the logo is no guarantee, so buying from a reputable outfit is important.

You seem to be in the ballpark with your main jet and pilot jet. No way those sizes would result in that black sooty spark plug. The pilot air jets up top (under the diaphragm) should be a #230 and a #45.

What did you do about your spark plug? Did you switch to the correct NGK plug? It would be a shame to struggle with your carburetor only to find that the E3 plug was the source of your trouble. Once you get it running correctly, you can always try the E3 again. Until you get it running correctly, I wouldn't complicate things by throwing another variable into the mix.

Title: Re: So... I think I'm running a little rich.
Post by Ruttly on 04/04/23 at 15:04:12

It used to be you could tell just by handling the jets from the kits. If they feel sharp on the edges and points and light as a feather and color of the brass was a dead give away not the rich golden color but faded , milky looking. You want to see & feel it rich gold color , feel the weight , well finished parts and yes the Mikuni emblem.